Dealing respectfully with those who HAVE found God...

[fccool]

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Both of us will have a headache in the morning if we don't stop banging our heads into a concrete wall.

Flannelboards are good.

I find it ironic that you guys are complaining about idea of respect, and then you mockingly treat other people like they are little children.

Why should I take either of your demands seriously, if you can't carry on a decent conversation without resorting to implying that I'm an idiot who needs flannel boards? :)

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

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Mr cool, I think you somehow keep missing the point of this thread. It IS NOT about Islam!!!

IT IS ABOUT DISRESPECTING GOD. REPEATEDLY. WITH THE ADMIRATION AND ENDORSEMENT OF FORUM MEMBERS.

**sigh**

I feel like I need to start using crayons, a flannelboard, and one-syllable words to communicate.

The point is that you want to be understood, but you make no effort to understand others. You want everyone only to speak good things about your God, and you don't make very much effort to see why other people have the issue with your views.

You keep trying to turn the point of this thread into another direction. Sorry, but I'm not taking the bait.

It is incumbent upon *me* to try and make myself clear. But my efforts seem to be lost on some.

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People on this forum don't enforce and admire criticism of Christian God. Most here don't agree with it, but they don't cry about it. They attempt to defend it.

Sir, there actually *are* people here who encourage and defend the "right" of someone to do character assassination of the Christian God, as a method of "working out their issues" in leaving the Adventist church.

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What you are asking for is for your idea of Christian God to be beyond criticism, and it's quite unrealistic. I've already explained to you the difference between valid criticism, and the levels of respect... but you don't want to understand it.

Sorry, but I *quite* understand criticism and respect. Apparently, we have opposing views on what is *respectful*...

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All you seem to want is to draw "Stop disrespecting God" in crayons on paper signs and parade and protest.

That's not what I wrote, but if that's what you need, I can do it.

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If you don't believe that the criticism is valid, then defend it.

This thread isn't for someone to post denigrating remarks about God, with the purpose of me sporting a defense position.

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That's what the forum is for, to discuss things in a civil manner without preconception...

That's a nice idea, but totally unrealistic. EVERYONE (even you and me) bring preconceptions based on life experiences to a forum. No one is EVER unbiased.

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hostility

I'm not hostile, though I realize at times it may appear that way. I am candid and I am blunt. I also tend to use dark humor. Too many years working in the Emergency Room does that to a person..

[Woody]

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Pam,

The point is that you want to be understood, but you make no effort to understand others.

[Woody]

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I feel like I need to start using crayons, a flannelboard, and one-syllable words to communicate.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

redwood, your efforts to jab me are pathetic..

The point of this thread is obviously under my control. Not yours. Go away unless you have something constructive to offer. And stop spamming this thread.

[Woody]

redwood, your efforts to jab me are pathetic..

The point of this thread is obviously under my control. Not yours. Go away unless you have something constructive to offer. And stop spamming this thread.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

redwood, please refer to your messages.

[bonnie]

I find it ironic that you guys are complaining about idea of respect, and then you mockingly treat other people like they are little children.

Why should I take either of your demands seriously, if you can't carry on a decent conversation without resorting to implying that I'm an idiot who needs flannel boards?

[fccool]

I think you are confusing the respect for people who have found God with respect for that belief and God. You are mostly complaining about people who are "trashing God" on this forum, and you view it as a sign of disrespect to you personally. It's false.

I think I've already demonstrated a distinction between respect and criticism.

For example, I don't think I have disrespected you in this thread at all. I have not called you a fool or an idiot, or a wacko. I understand where you are coming from. I'm not forcing you to defend your position, and you don't have to participate in every argument on this forum that you personally find offensive or disrespectful to your believes.

There's a difference between a base respect for people, and a base respect for the believes that they hold. Would you agree? For example, if a teacher would teach my kid that in order to be good he must worship the invisible witch... I don't have to respect that. I could criticize such belief as harmful. But, I could still respectfully deal with teacher.

If you expect people here constantly agree with your beliefs, then what's the point of having a forum?

Of course, you once again may point out that "I don't get it", but in such case all you want is for your beliefs to be beyond criticism, or criticized in a manner that would not point out any potential negativity or detriments with these.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Sir, why do you continue to insist that I "expect people here [to] constantly agree with my beliefs"???? I have never said that, expect it, nor want it.

Believe me, I *don't* participate in every argument on this forum that I find offensive. I try to choose wisely...I'm not always successful, but that's my attempt. To be specific, the condemnation, slurring, and bashing of God on this forum was sufficient reason for me to state my opinion.

Respect for people includes respect for their beliefs. One doesn't need to agree with those beliefs. It certainly doesn't include slamming those beliefs. Attempting to understand those beliefs does NOT include bashing, which is exactly what is being done, condoned, and sanctioned on this forum.

You [perhaps unintentionally] disrespect me when you try to attribute words, thoughts, and actions to me, when it is not true. I understand English is not your native language. I try give a certain amount of latitude for that, but at times, no matter how hard I strive to communicate the meaning of this thread, my words don't seem to be understood.

[bonnie]

I think you are confusing the respect for people who have found God with respect for that belief and God. You are mostly complaining about people who are "trashing God" on this forum, and you view it as a sign of disrespect to you personally. It's false.

I think I've already demonstrated a distinction between respect and criticism.

[fccool]

What "venom" are you talking about? You keep referring to it, but can you give an example of a certain criticism that you would consider disrespectful and "venomous"?

[bonnie]

What "venom" are you talking about? You keep referring to it, but can you give an example of a certain criticism that you would consider disrespectful and "venomous"?

This is really quite pointless. You take offense at the wording in the bible.To bad,I can't help that. You make claims that simply are not true.I don't expect that the topic of this thread or it's intent has really altered anything.

I do believe that there are people that consider themselves SDA that like to see their faith trashed for reasons I can't fathom.Trashed does not mean discussed,it means something altogether different and some do enjoy that

To object means somehow you want everyone to think like you or believe as you do or they should keep their mouth shut. That has never been asked or demanded.

This thread wasn't even about religious belief or why you believe a certain way.

I don't think that you need to be concerned that somehow you will not be able to share in your own unique way. As long as it is seen as being open minded and tolerant it will not only be allowed but encouraged.That type of open minded tolerance

does not extend to those that have objection to what they see as total disrespect for a SDA based forum.

I won't object again and I believe you will have many willing and enthusiastic members to join you.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I'm with you, Bonnie.

**leaving the vultures to gnaw the bones**

[phkrause]

I'm with you, Bonnie.

**leaving the vultures to gnaw the bones**

It is sad this need to hate.

[fccool]

Bonnie & Pam,

I've asked you for a specific example of what you are talking about, and what you would consider to be disrespect. You seem to run away from this issue fairly fast here. Please show us some specifics, so we can take into account what exactly do you find offensive and disrespectful, or hateful?

I'm a bit lost here. You are calling me a volture, and venomous. Can you show some specifics that you would consider to be disrespectful?

[JoeMo]

Hey Pam,

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I feel like I need to start using crayons, a flannelboard, and one-syllable words to communicate.

You want to be respected and understood. IMO, statements like this (which I find demeaning and condescending)do not inspire a desire to respect and understand. Of course, I am just reading your words (20% 0f communication) without hearing your voice inflections or seeing your facial expressionsand body language (the other 80%).

OTOH, I hear your frustration. Admittedly, I have a quite liberal view of spirituality. Being honest, I feel like I have taken my fair share of abuse here because I "found" God to be quite different than the god I was brought up with. I really don't expect people to understand my spirituality (or Empty Cross', or fccool, cardw, Woody, or Gibs, or Ig, yours, or anyone else). Given your background, I hope you understand where I am coming from. The "God" I have found is a very loving Father that is more interested in an intimate relationship with me than He is in how perfectly I submit to His rules. I'm NOT saying His rules are meaningless; all I'm saying is that the rules aren't as important as the relationship.

Most people don't get that. They think that I am some namby-pamby liberal who has compromised his faith; and quote page after page of EGW to me, in spite of how often I respond that EGW quotes don't impress me as much as scripture. I have more respect for the pagans and atheists on this site than I do for most of the Christians. For the most part, non-Christians at least engage me in an intellectual and personal way, rather than just throwing quotes at me that imply how much of a heretical infidel that I am (there are many Christians that engage me in a non-judgmental way as well).

I have railed in the past about the disrespect that many here show to each other. It's to no avail. Some people here (Christian or not) get off on trotting out their self-righteousness by rebuking others for their beliefs (or lack thereof).

I confess that I have probably "disrespected" many many people here. For that I apologize. There is no excuse for disrespecting anyone here. Spirituality is a very personal thing; and people take different paths. Some choose to follow other spiritual leaders; and some blaze their own trail. My idea of religious liberty is that everyone can believe as they choose (albeit it should be an informed choice rather than a blind roll of the dice or a legacy inheritance from one's anscestors).

Does any of that make sense?

[JoeMo]

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It was not a invitation to even debate the difference in belief,many times with as much venom as you choose to use.

"Venom" is in the eye of the beholder. Taking my emotions out of it. I find posts by fc , Ig, and cardw confrontational in the sense that they make me think about what I believe and why I believe it; and frankly, from a non-religious and logical standpoint, I cannot refute what they say. I have even modified some of my belief system because of their posts.

Do you think that sometimes we take things as "venom" because of our frustration about not having witty and clever (as well as convincing to them) responses to their challenges?

[Woody]

My hat's off to you JoeMo. Very well chosen and accurate words.

[doug yowell]

Very interesting exchange here. I empathize with Pam and Bonnie. I think the difference in the spiritual perspectives has much to do with the failure to communicate. Water and oil will rarely mix.Disrespect for the Bible God, those who believe in the idea, (or any god for that matter), is difficult for the disrespector to respectfully address for they,at heart,are disrespectful of that which they seek to overturn. Christians, on the other hand, should know better and not be so offended when those who don't understand the God of the Bible (Christ) direct their disrespect towards both Him and His ideals, and/or them. Christians are expected to be held to a higher standard whereby they must be extremely careful about giving their opponents any reason to question their respectfulness. This often takes a great deal of careful/prayerful thought as to how others may view their statements. That said, surely there is a time to stop the useless impasse and move on? As the wise man once noted (with all due respect to Bible critics): "To everything there is a season, a time for every purpose under heaven: A time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing. A time to keep silence, and a time to speak. A time of war, and a time of peace. A time to enter and a time to leave. And a wise man's heart discerns both time and judgment.Because for every matter there is a time and judgment, though the misery of man (and women)increases greatly."

[JoeMo]

Doug,

Very insightful post, IMO.

[Woody]

I like what you have stated Doug. But I do question the following:

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Christians are expected to be held to a higher standard

From what I've witness on this forum - the Pagans hold a pretty high standard. One of which the Christians might want to imitate. So - who is it that actually holds a high standard?

[LifeHiscost]

Very interesting exchange here. I empathize with Pam and Bonnie. I think the difference in the spiritual perspectives has much to do with the failure to communicate. Water and oil will rarely mix.Disrespect for the Bible God, those who believe in the idea, (or any god for that matter), is difficult for the disrespector to respectfully address for they,at heart,are disrespectful of that which they seek to overturn. Christians, on the other hand, should know better and not be so offended when those who don't understand the God of the Bible (Christ) direct their disrespect towards both Him and His ideals, and/or them. Christians are expected to be held to a higher standard whereby they must be extremely careful about giving their opponents any reason to question their respectfulness. This often takes a great deal of careful/prayerful thought as to how others may view their statements. That said, surely there is a time to stop the useless impasse and move on? As the wise man once noted (with all due respect to Bible critics): "To everything there is a season, a time for every purpose under heaven: A time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing. A time to keep silence, and a time to speak. A time of war, and a time of peace. A time to enter and a time to leave. And a wise man's heart discerns both time and judgment.Because for every matter there is a time and judgment, though the misery of man (and women)increases greatly."

All revealing a continuous need for dependence on the Holy Spirit to subdue our carnal nature, whether the time be right or left.

"But his delight is in the law of the Lord, And in His law he meditates day and night." Psalm 1:2 NASB

God cares!

[JoeMo]

Great question, Woody.

[bonnie]

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It was not a invitation to even debate the difference in belief,many times with as much venom as you choose to use.

"Venom" is in the eye of the beholder. Taking my emotions out of it. I find posts by fc , Ig, and cardw confrontational in the sense that they make me think about what I believe and why I believe it; and frankly, from a non-religious and logical standpoint, I cannot refute what they say. I have even modified some of my belief system because of their posts.

Do you think that sometimes we take things as "venom" because of our frustration about not having witty and clever (as well as convincing to them) responses to their challenges?

The title of the topic was Dealing respectfully with those who HAVE found God...

Didn't have anything to do with challenging someone's belief.

This maybe how you believe it should be..of our frustration about not having witty and clever

but some of us don't see the need for the above in a topic titled Dealing respectfully with those who HAVE found God...

Not an invitation to PROVE or disprove. There are many other topics that invite discussion on theology or lack of it,some started for reasons of honest interest,others started to see controversy the result.

Neither this topic or the one on how to deal with those who have not found God are requesting or inviting chalenging specific beliefs