What day was Jesus crucified?

[benherndon]

I know this subject has troubled some folks. If Jesus was crucified on Friday and raised early on the first day of the week, how could He have been "...three days and three nights in the heart of the earth" as He said in Matt 12 when He gave them the "sign of the prophet Jonah."?

My friend, Dr. Jack Gent, former partner and retired surgeon, has solved the problem apparently.

This is long but rewarding to the one who perseveres.

So, what do you think about Dr. Gent's solution to the problem?

Ben

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THE SIGN OF JONAH

Exodus 12:1-6-- The Lord said to Moses and Aaron in Egypt, "This month is to be for you the

first month, the first month of your year. Tell the whole community of Israel that on the tenth day

of this month each man is to take a lamb for his family, one for each household. If any household

is too small for a whole lamb, they must share one with their nearest neighbor, having taken into

account the number of people there are. You are to determine the amount of lamb needed in

accordance with what each person will eat...Take care of them until the fourteenth day of the

month, when all the people of the community of Israel must slaughter them at twilight.

Vs. 8-- That same night they are to eat the meat roasted over the

fire--head, legs and inner parts.

Vss. 14-16--"This is a day you are to commemorate; for the generations to come you shall

celebrate it as a festival to the Lord--a lasting ordinance. For seven days you are to eat bread made

without yeast. On the first day remove the yeast from your houses, for whoever eats anything

with yeast in it from the first day to the seventh must be cut off from Israel. On the first day hold

a sacred assembly, and another one on the seventh day. Do no work at all on these days, except

to prepare food for everyone to eat--that is all you may do.

[Regarding the events that are associated with this sacred assembly, have you ever wondered

about the prophecy Christ gave to His critics which involve these events?]

Matt. 12:38-40-- Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, "Teacher, we

want to see a miraculous sign from you."

He answered, "A wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be

given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the

belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."

[Was Jesus just not good at arithmetic? Is it unimportant that the facts of the fulfillment match the

predictions of the prophecy? This prophecy and its fulfillment as compared to the way I have

always been taught, and which is generally accepted, are not a match. According to that scenario, this

prophecy is false.

I would like to present what I believe is the true way this prophecy was intended, and as always with

the prophecies from God, it is a perfect match.]

John 19:12-- From then on, Pilate tried to set Jesus free, but the Jews kept shouting, "If you let

this man go, you are no friend of Caesar. Anyone who claims to be a king opposes Caesar.

Vs: 14--It was the Preparation of Passover Week, about the sixth hour.

Vs. 16--Finally Pilate handed him over to them to be crucified.

[From this we know that this preparation day is the Preparation for the Sabbath of the first day of

Passover Week. For this to perfectly fit the prophecy, this would have to be a passover week that

would start on Thursday, as the end of these three days was set in steel by the soon coming

Sunday. Let us see how this fits the discription.]

Mark 15:25--It was the third hour when they crucified him. (9:00 AM)

Vss. 33-37-- At the sixth hour (Noon) darkness came over the whole land until the ninth hour.

(3:00 PM) And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "My God, my God, why have

you forsaken me?"....With a loud cry, Jesus breathed his last.

Vss. 42-47--When evening had come, and since it was the day of Preparation, that is, the day

before the Sabbath, Joseph of Arimathea, a respected member of the council, who was also

himself waiting expectantly for the kingdom of God, went boldly to Pilate and asked for the body

of Jesus. Then Pilate wondered if he was already dead...when he learned from the centurian that

he was dead, he granted the body to Joseph. Then Joseph bought a linen cloth, and taking down

the body, wrapped it in the linen cloth, and laid it in a tomb that had been hewed out of the rock.

He rolled a stone against the door of the tomb. Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joses

saw where the body was laid.

["Mary the mother of Joses." This Joses is speaking of Joseph, the half brother of Jesus. Joses is another name for Joseph. With the information we have at this time so far, this Mary is most likely Mary the mother of Jesus.]

Luke 23:54-56--It was Preparation Day, and the Sabbath was about to begin.

The women who had come with Jesus from Galilee followed Joseph and saw the tomb and how

his body was laid in it. Then they went home and prepared spices and perfumes. But they rested

on the Sabbath in obedience to the commandment.

[Did these women go home and prepare their spices and ointments as soon as they got home? It

had to be sundown or a little after sundown when they returned home. Remember the command

regarding working on this Passover Sabbath of this seven day yearly sacred festival.

When these Marys reached their homes at sundown they were occupied with roasting the sacrificed family lamb and feeding it to all the members of the household. They were commanded to do this and only this, by the Passover Sabbath commandment.]

Exodus 12:12-16-- On the first day hold a sacred assembly, and another one on the seventh day. Do

no work at all on these days, except to prepare food for everyone to eat--that is all you may do.

[so until the close of the Passover Sabbath there was no opportunity to shop for spices etc for

their anointing of Christ's body.

Mark 16:1 When the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James, and

Salome bought spices so that they might go to anoint Jesus' body.

["Mary the mother of James, and Salome." This should read, (Mary the mother of James and Salome.) These are two more of Mary's children. Salome was one of Jesus' sisters. There should be no comma after James. There were no puncuation marks in the manuscripts. These were added by the translators.

Salome was listed in the manuscript to differentiate who this Mary is speaking of. Without listing this daughter Salome, Mary might be confused by Mary Zebedee, the mother of better known James, and John. Mary Magdalene's closest friends were Jesus and His mother, Mary. Nowhere in this account is Salome mentioned again. The reason for this is obvious, because she is only mentioned to better identify this Mary that Mary Magdalene is in partnership with to keep tabs on the body of Jesus.]

Matt. 13:54-56--Coming to his hometown, he began teaching the people in their synagogue, and they were amazed. "Where did this man get this wisdom and these miraculous powers?" they asked. "Isn't this the carpenter's son? Isn't his mother's name Mary, and aren't his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas? Aren't all his sisters with us? Where then did this man get all these things?"

[The only day that they could do this shopping was Friday that followed the Passover Sabbath. It

also happened to be the Preparation Day of the oncoming weekly Sabbath. I'm sure it was a very busy day

for them to purchase the aromatic oils and ointments and perfumes to use in the production of

these anointing agents. Then the time ran out and the weekly Sabbath arrived precluding application of

these spices until the day following the Sabbath--the first day of the week. They couldn't have bought these spices after the weekly Sabbath because Jesus was resurrected and the tomb was empty when Mary Magdalene went to the tomb in the pre-dawn hours of Sunday morning.]

Luke 23:55-56--The women who had come with Jesus from Galilee followed Joseph and saw the

tomb and how his body was laid in it. Then they went home and prepared

spices and perfumes. But they rested on the Sabbath in obedience to the commandment.

[This leaves out some of the stages and steps that had to be overcome before these spices and

perfumes became a reality. We know that when Mary Magdalene and Mary, the mother of Jesus

arived at their homes they assisted their family preparation and roasting of the family sacrificial lamb, as they were required to do.

They then had to see that each member ate as much of the lamb as they could.

In obedience to the commandment regarding this Passover Sabbath, this is all that they were

allowed to do. Not until this Sabbath was fully over were they free to purchase their perfumes and spices.

Yes, these women did buy these ointments and spices to anoint Jesus' body when the Sabbath was over; but this could only be when the Passover Sabbath was fully over. When the following weekly Sabbath was fully over, Mary Magdalene ran to Jesus' tomb before dawn and the tomb was empty. This should remove any possibility that Christ was crucified on the Preparation Day of the weekly Sabbath.

Matt. 27:59,60-- Joseph took the body, wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, and placed it in his own

new tomb that he had cut out of the rock. He rolled a big stone in front

of the entrance to the tomb and went away.

Vss. 62-64--The next day, the one after Preparation Day, the chief priests and the Pharisees went

to Pilate. "Sir," they said, "we remember that while he was still alive that deceiver said, 'After

three days I will rise again.' So give the order for the tomb to be made secure until the third day.

Otherwise, his disciples may come and steal the body and tell the people that he has been raised

from the dead. This last deception will be worse than the first."

Vss. 65,66--"Take a guard," Pilate answered, "Go, make the tomb as secure as you know how."

So they went and made the tomb secure by putting a seal on the stone and posted a guard.

[One thing that we know for certain is that the day that followed this Preparation Day was the

ceremonial Sabbath of the first day of the annual Passover sacred assembly. John has already told

us this from his account. What is almost as certain that it couldn't any way be connected with

the weekly Sabbath, is that these self-righteous Pharisees and priests prided themselves on their

keeping of the weekly Sabbath. They had degrees in the keeping of the Sabbath. One of the reasons for

their calling for the crucifixion of Jesus was their claim that He broke the Sabbath, according to

their interpretation of the law.There was also a command that anyone guilty of breaking the

weekly Sabbath would be stoned

They had no scriptural permission to carry out the activities that they were plotting with Pilate.

They were commanded by the instructions of this Passover Sabbath not to do any work except to

prepare meals for others. This would clear them to roast and serve the sacrificial lamb for every

household in the land to eat. Apparently they did not take the commands concerning this Passover

Sabbath very seriously.]

John 19:13,14--(Weymouth)--Meanwhile the Jews, because it was the day of Preparation for the

Passover, and in order that the bodies might not remain on the crosses during the Sabbath (for that

Sabbath was one of special solemnity), requested Pilate to have the legs of the dying men broken,

and their bodies removed.

[God had made the Jews aware that this Passover Sabbath was of special solemnity, but didn't tell

them why. They didn't realize this was connected in any way to Christ's crucifixion. They petitioned Pilate to have Jesus' legs broken so he would die sooner and his body could be disposed of and would not contaminate this special solemn Passover Sabbath.

This Passover Sabbath was specially solemn because the Passover lamb was prepared and roasted over the fire, and at the beginning of the Sabbath was eaten by the families of the Israelites. While this was taking place all over the nation of Israel, Jesus was being crucified and at sundown His dead body was placed in the heart of the earth. So this Passover Sabbath symbol was fulfilled by Jesus by His crucifixion on the cross.

The Seventh Day Sabbath (at the end of this three days in the heart of the earth) was fulfilled by His resurrection from the grave.]

John 19:41,42--There was a garden at the place where Jesus had been crucified, and in the garden

a new tomb, in which no one had yet been buried. Therefore, because it was the day of

Preparation for the Jewish Passover, and the tomb was close at hand, they put Jesus there.

[And now we come to the end of this three days and three nights:]

John 20:1,2--Early on the first day of the week, while it was still dark, Mary Magdalene went to

the tomb and saw that the stone had been removed from the entrance. So she came running to

Simon Peter and the other disciple, the one Jesus loved, and said, "They have taken the Lord out

of the tomb, and we don't know where they have put him!"

[When was Jesus resurrected? It could have been anytime during the dark hours of Sunday;

from sunset Saturday evening until pre-sunrise Sunday morning

When Mary Magdalene came to the tomb while it was still dark on the pre-dawn hours

of the first day, the guards had left the scene; the linen wrapping on Jesus' body had been folded

and laid aside and the large stone had been rolled away, the tomb was empty.

Jesus was crucified on Wednesday, and died at 3:00 PM that afternoon. He was placed in the

tomb at sunset on this day. From God's instructions at Sinai, the Israelites were to measure their

days from sunset to sunset. The time from sunset to sunrise --the dark part of the day --was called

the night. The part that extended from sunrise to sunset was called the day.

This gives us one night and one day for this Passover Sabbath--Thursday.

The Preparation Day of the weekly Sabbath that followed this found Him resting in His grave.

This gives us another night and day of this Friday.

The weekly Sabbath He also rested in His grave. This gives us another full night and day

of this weekly Sabbath.

Very early during the dark part (pre-dawn) of the first day of the week, He was resurrected.

Wednesday--Preparation Day of the Passover Sabbath--Jesus was crucified.

Thursday--The Passover Sabbath--rested in His grave; (one night and one day.)

Friday--Preparation Day for the weekly Sabbath--rested in grave. (one night and one day).

Saturday--The weekly Sabbath--rested in His grave--(one night and one day).

Total time in the grave---(three nights and three days); (three 24 hour days.)

Jesus was resurrected some time after sundown Saturday evening and before

daylight Sunday AM.

Jesus was having this walk and talk with Cleopas and his friend a few hours following

His resurrection that same day.

This scenario is the only set of days that can fulfill this prophecy and it is apparent that these are

the days and events that do fulfill it. These fit precisely and with no need to give some awkward,

impossible explanation to make the impossible seem possible. Now that we are aware of these

events as discribed by the different Gospel writers let us see how impossible it is for this

crucifixion to have taken place on Friday, the preparation day of the weekly Sabbath. I believe

God has left us many clues to prevent us from making that mistake.

Let us take these women who are preparing to anoint Jesus' body with aromatic oils, perfumes and

ointments. They have been following Jesus from Galilee and through his crucifixion and death.

They watch as Joseph obtains His body from Pilate and prepare His body for burial.

John 19:38-42--Later, Joseph of Arimathea asked Pilate for the body of Jesus...With Pilate's

permission, he came and took the body away. He was accompanied by Nicodemus, the man who

earlier had visited Jesus at night. Nicodemus brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about

seventy-five pounds. Taking Jesus' body, the two of them wrapped it, with the spices, in strips

of linen. This was in accordance with Jewish burial customs.

[Note that Jesus died at 3:00 PM on Preparation Day. For some time He remained on the cross

after His demise. Joseph came by and realized that Jesus was dead. Joseph then looked up Pilate

and asked for His body to give it a decent burial. Pilate was surprised to hear that Jesus was

already dead and wanted to verify this before surrendering His body to Joseph. Pilate contacted

his centurian who verified that Jesus was dead. Then Joseph and Nicodemus took His body

down from the cross and brought it to the place of burial. With the seventy five pounds of

embalming medicines they prepared Jesus' body for proper burial. All this time there are those

little clues:]

Luke 23:53,54--Then he took it (Jesus' body) down, wrapped it in linen cloth and placed it in a

tomb cut in the rock...It was Preparation Day, and the Sabbath wa about to begin.

Mark 15:42-47--It was the Preparation Day...So as evening approached, Joseph of

Arimathea...went boldly to Pilate and asked for Jesus' body...So Joseph bought some linen

cloth, took down the body, wrapped it in the linen, and placed it in a tomb cut out of rock. Then

he rolled a stone against the entrance of the tomb.

Vs. 47-- Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joses saw where he was laid.

[imagine how much closer evening had approached after Joseph and Nicodemus had finished their

time consuming job of embalming and wrapping His body with strips of linen. All the while

these caring bystanders: Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joses were following every

procedure to ensure that no one ran away with His body. It should also be a good clue that these

women were totally precluded from shopping for spices and ointments etc. It would be

questionable and highly unlikely whether they were able to reach their homes before sundown; but certainly no time for getting any merchant to open his store for shoppers. But the evidence that makes that

proposition totally impossible follows:

Mark 16:1--When the Sabbath was fully over, Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of

James, and Salome bought spices so that they might go to anoint Jesus' body.

[Would there be any stores open during the hours of Passover Sabbath? Certainly not! And this

Sabbath wouldn't be over until Thursday at sundown. So no stores would be open for shopping

until Friday morning. Fortunately this was the Preparation Day of the approaching weekly

Sabbath. This Preparation Day was ideal for obtaining and preparing these spices and aromatic

oils and perfumes to anoint Christ's body.

For whatever reason, after purchasing and preparing these materials they decided to wait until the day

following the weekly Sabbath to apply the anointing material. Perhaps in their careful and maticulous

mixing of these aromatic mixtures, time had gotten out of hand and they didn't want to be rushed

in carrying out their task of love. So they rested, according to the commandment, on the weekly

Sabbath. Actually these anointing agents were never applied to Jesus' body. The women had planned to apply them on the day following the weekly Sabbath, but when Mary Magdalene ran down to the tomb at pre-dawn of Sunday morning, the grave was empty.]

There is another bit of evidence that one should not fail to consider:

Luke 24:13-16-- Now that same day (resurrection) two of them (believers in Jesus) were going to

a village called Emmaus, about seven miles from Jerusalem. They were talking with each other

about everything that had happened. As they talked and discussed these things with each

other, Jesus came up and walked along with them; but they were kept from recognizing him.

Vss. 19-21--They stood still, their faces downcast. One of them, named Cleopas, asked him, "Are

you only a visitor to Jerusalem and do not know the things that have happened there in these days?"

"What things?" he asked.

"About Jesus of Nazareth," they replied. "He was a prophet, powerful in word and deed before

God and all the people. The chief priests and our rulers handed him over to be sentenced to death,

and they crucified him; but we had hoped that he was the one who was going to redeem Israel.

And what is more, it is the third day since all this took place.

Vs. 22--In addition, some of our women amazed us. They went to the tomb early this morning but

didn't find his body. They came and told us that they had seen a vision of angels, who said that

he was alive.

[Here we have Jesus on the day of His resurrection walking along with two of His dejected

followers. If Jesus had been placed in His tomb at the beginning of the weekly Sabbath, He

would not be able to state that He had been three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

He would have spent only one night and one day in the heart of the earth.

Essentially He would have spent Sabbath and a portion of the night of the first day of the week, in

the heart of the earth.

And Cleopas would have no basis to say that it had been three days since all these things

happened."

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[benherndon]

dgrimm60, How do you account for the 'three nights' part of what Jesus said?

Ben

[Neil D]

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benherndon said:

dgrimm60, How do you account for the 'three nights' part of what Jesus said?

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Using the western thought, and being literal, you do have a problem.

But Jewish thought, when it counts the whole day, even though it is only a part, also figures the night in the night/day cycle.

So, what's the problem?

[Taylor]

I believe it says that "As the day was dawning" that the women came to the grave. and that was after the Sabbath. Now granted, the day "began" at sundown but it says as the daw was dawning which to me denotes the sun coming up. It wasn't just beginning it was dawning. It isn't dawning at 6 p.m. or later untill much later.

[Neil D]

Let's see if I can illustrate this

|__________________________Jesus dies______________| Day one

Night day

Western thought-

friday night until midnight Saturday day

|_________________________Jesus rests______________| Day two

Sabbath night Sabbath Day

Western thought-

Saturday night until midnight Sunday day

|___________________Jesus arises__________________|Day Three

Night Day

Western thought-

Thursday night until midnight Friday day

Does this make this easer for anyone?

Now, when I send this, will it come out...I hope!

[Amelia]

Just to look at it from the other angle

------Friday day - Jesus dies - laid in the grave------

Friday night - 1st night

-----------Sabbath - Jesus rests------------

Saturday - 1st day : Saturday night - 2nd night

-----------Sunday - Jesus rises------------

Sunday - 2nd day

[Parade Orange]

well who said three days and three nights in the heart of the earth means -THE TOMB ?

It started Thursday night in the Garden of Gethsemne.

'Heart of the earth' has maybe another meaning that most have overlooked.

its worth a thought.

[Yong T Tay]

Quote Neil D

"|___________________Jesus arises__________________|Day Three

Night Day

Western thought-

Thursday night until midnight Friday day"

I am confused.

[Yong T Tay]

Quote:

""About Jesus of Nazareth," they replied. "He was a prophet, powerful in word and deed before

God and all the people. The chief priests and our rulers handed him over to be sentenced to death,

and they crucified him; but we had hoped that he was the one who was going to redeem Israel.

And what is more, it is the third day since all this took place.

Vs. 22--In addition, some of our women amazed us. They went to the tomb early this morning but

didn't find his body. They came and told us that they had seen a vision of angels, who said that

he was alive.

[Here we have Jesus on the day of His resurrection walking along with two of His dejected

followers. If Jesus had been placed in His tomb at the beginning of the weekly Sabbath, He

would not be able to state that He had been three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

He would have spent only one night and one day in the heart of the earth.

Essentially He would have spent Sabbath and a portion of the night of the first day of the week, in

the heart of the earth.

And Cleopas would have no basis to say that it had been three days since all these things

happened.""

-------------------------------------------------------

And what is more, it is the third day since all this took place.

And Cleopas would have no basis to say that it had been three days since all these things happened.

-------------------------------------------------------

Does third day mean three days?

[Neil D]

Quote:

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|___________________Jesus arises__________________|Day Three

Night Day

Western thought-

Thursday night until midnight Friday day

Does this make this easer for anyone?

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Oops...Nope that doesn't make it easier...that last part that says -

Western thought-

Thursday night until midnight Friday day

should be-

Western thought-

Sunday night until midnight monday

Sorry for the confusion...got carried away pasting that I forgot to check the last one....

[Gregory Matthews]

1) There are two main methods of developing a calendar that determines the religious holydays of the Jewish people. This problem has been with us for centruaries, and was a basis for the Easter controversies that errupted in Christian times.

This problem is a part of the questions that are centered in the discussion the day of Christ's death.

From my perspective, those who attempt to resolve this question should begin by tellling us which religious calendar they are using to determine the day of the Pasover.

2) A second fundamental issue is that of taking a 1st centurary idiomatic expression and understanding it in the English of 2,000 years later, and in a culture that is quite different.

Let me illlustrate this point with some Biblical passages:

"cover his feet" Most modern translations, to include the NKJV, have changed this to a more modern reading. But, it is used several times in the OT. Do you know what it means, without reading a modern version?

"camel go through the eye of a needle" To understand this you have to understand the thinking of the people at the time Christ spoke to them.

So also, one must understand the thinking of the people when Christ mentioned the 3 days and 3 nights. They uderstood it probably better than we do.

[Taylor]

I am not sure how to reckon the 3 days and 3 nights theory. I have heard this question raised, mainly to try to prove that there were other equally holy Sabbathsetc. (There were other Sabbaths or "high days" but that doesn't diminish the 7th day Sabbath and the specialness attached to that day. Yes I know that Dr. Ben won't agree on that, but that is ok. I still like him. .)

However, regardless of the explanation of how to reckon the 3 and 3 nights, it is clear to me when Jesus died.

There is no break in the story in Mark 15 talking about the death of Jesus, and saying in verse 42 "now at when teh even was come, because it was the preparation day, that is before the Sabbath"....

then it says in verse 1 of Chapter 16 'And when the Sabbath was past Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salomen, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anouint him. And very early in the morning, the FIRST day of the week they came unto the spulchre at the RISING of the SUN"

They didn't come to the tomb Saturday night, they came early Sunday morning, which is the first day of the week, as the sun was rising! The sun doesn't rise when the Sabbath is finished on Saturday night, nor at midnight on Saturday night by western thought, but it rises in the morning, and it was the first day of the week which is Sunday.

Luke 23: verses 53-56 and Luke 24: 1 also make it clear that the Sabbath talked about here is the one mentioned in the commandments which would be the 7th day Sabbath. And in case there is any doubt about that, it says that they had the preparation day, the Sabbath and then it mentions the first day of the week where it says that very early in the morning they came to the sepulchre... If there had been some other day in there like Thursday or Wednesday, then it would have been mentioned, but again there is no break in telling the story from when he died to the "prepartion day", the the "Sabbath" then the "first day of the week".

John 19:40-42 it says that they "laid Jesus therefore because of the Jews preparation day" then it goes on to say in the first verse of chapter 20 that "The first day of the week cometh Mary Madalen to the tomb"

Matthew at the end of Chapter 27 and begining of chaper 28 talks about how the women went to the tomb early Sunday morning and how there was a great earthquake and an angel come down and rolled back the stone and sat on it....." Now I suppose it is possible that the angel come down twice, once to resurrect Jesus on Sabbath night or sometime before the ladies got there, and then returned, but why would the stone need to be rolled away again? And besides the Bible doesn't tell us about the soldiers getting scared twice, and if they had been scared already the by the resurrection, don't you think they would have already left to find the authorities to tell them?

Anyway, regardless of when Jesus was resurrected we DO know that he died on Friday as it calls it the preparation day. If he died on Friday then he was in the grave on Sabbath, and was resurrected on Sunday, either while or before the ladies arrived.

I also know that part of days were reckoned as "days". Jesus said that in 3 days he would be resurected, which if you count pieces of three days you have it...Friday (it wasn't sundown yet when he died as they were trying to hurry to get him in the tomb on preparation day, then they rested the Sabbath and wento the tomb on Sunday...exactly at what hour he resurrected, we don't know, but it was apparently early morning...Anyway that is pieces of 3 days. It isn't 3 nights I will give you that, and I am not sure what the answere is to that....

[benherndon]

Quote:

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(There were other Sabbaths or "high days" but that doesn't diminish the 7th day Sabbath and the specialness attached to that day. Yes I know that Dr. Ben won't agree on that, but that is ok. I still like him. .)

---

>>>Thanks, Taylor and I like you, too! But what is it you know that I wouldn't agree to? I agree there are special Sabbaths and my comment is, Yes, I know that. Sometimes the Bible is speaking to the 7th day Sabbath and much less often but definitely sometimes to a 'ceremonial' Sabbath that might not be on the 7th day.

I didn't write the article. I tossed it out for us SDAs who call themselves 'people of the book' to evaluate what Dr. Gent wrote. OK? I need to study it for myself and right now I don't have the time.

Dr. Gent is trying to correlate Christ's Sign of Jonah which said the He would be 'three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." That's a pretty clear statement, and. quite specific--so, it is literally true or not? Dr. Gent gives as a possibility that there is a Passover Preparation day and Passover Sabbath as well as a 7th day Sabbath and its preparation day...all of which are to be considered. Look at what he wrote again. Its the only way to correlate the 3 nights Jesus claimed He would be in the tomb.

And, by the way, regarding the earthquake that might have rolled away the stone, we don't know whether Jesus was thus provided a way out of the tomb or if His resurrection provided the earthquake, do we? At any rate the tomb was empty except for the man in a white robe saying Jesus wasn't there, or the two angels Mary saw sitting where Jesus body had lain....but Jesus was already outside behind Mary. So, it is not all very clear just how everything happened....except, EXCEPT, that Jesus rose from the dead!!!

Read Dr. Gent's interpretation again if you have time and look at the references he gives for yourself. There are several possibilities that the copiers used 'preparation' and 'sabbath' rather loosely for the English mind to comprehend. The Passover Sabbath, the 4th commandment Sabbath and their preparation days seem to be clear in the writers minds....... but not in ours.

Ben

[Gregory Matthews]

Re: "Dr. Gent is trying to correlate Christ's Sign of Jonah which said the He would be 'three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." That's a pretty clear statement, and. quite specific--so, it is literally true or not?"

Dr. Ben, if we accept that this is an idiomatic expression, then it can be literally true within the context of the Hebrew understanding of that expression, whatever that might be. But, that will not allow us to take that idiomatic expression and give it a 21st Cent. Western meaning.

The reality is that the words of Christ were meaningful and understood by the people to whom Christ was speaking. Within that context of communication, Christ's words were literal.

Re: "Dr. Gent gives as a possibility that there is a Passover Preparation day and Passover Sabbath as well as a 7th day Sabbath and its preparation day...all of which are to be considered."

Dr. Ben, this may very well be a valid position, or it may not. In addition, it may be that some variation of this is valid, but not exactly as he has stated. I do not intend to argue either for or against its validity. But, to support that position, he needs to go beyond conjecture and deal with the Jewish religious calender and how religious holydays were celebrated. This must include a discussion of how and why dilffering Jewish sects celebrated holydays on different days, sometiems.

Re: "Look at what he wrote again. Its the only way to correlate the 3 nights Jesus claimed He would be in the tomb."

Dr. Ben, you have made a conclusion, but not a statement of fact. You have stated a personal opinion, but not one that everyone agrees upon. There may be other explainations that you are not yet aware of, or convinced of. But, that does not mean that they do not exist.

[Gregory Matthews]

Let me give you a good example of what I am talking about. The story is so familiar that I am not going to quote the Biblical verse, but will put it in my words. Also, I recognize that the exact words will change from translation to translation.

Christ once told his desciples that it would be harder for a rich person to enter heaven, that it would be for a camel to go through the eye of a needle.

My postion is that the above was meaningful and understood by the people to whom Christ was speaking. Also, I beleive that within that context, his words were literal.

Some would say that the above makes it impossilbe for a person to ramain rich and enter heaven. I will suggest that such is a "wooden" application of what it means to be literal.

An understanding of the times in which Christ spoke probably gives us a better understanding of Christ's message. This has been well written up, and is available to any who want to discover it. So, I will alude to it but only briefly. The people listening to Christ tell them that, probably understood it in the context of an entrance gate in the wall that surrounded Jerusalem. It was commonly said that a camel who had entered Jersulam through that gate had gone through the eye of the needle. Study it for yourself, you will find it interesting.

Leteral, yes, the people listening to Christ understood it as literal. They lived in the context, and knew what Christ meant. To understand Scripture, we may need to understand the context as did the people who lived in the time of Christ.

I will suggest that such applies to the "three days and three nights" expression that Christ used.

[Parade Orange]

First

Can anyone find in the Bible that 'heart of the earth'

means THE TOMB?

bark up that tree first.

the Bible is the rule of faith not our assumptions. 8:O)

God bless u all

[benherndon]

Well, OK, G4J! How do you read 'heart of the earth'?

I think most of us did assume He was referring to being in the grave or tomb, perhaps Hades. Was He not referring to His death and resurrection?

There are lots of things written literally that we are required to assume what it means. Seems to me that all idiomatic expressions are 'assumptions', rather than literal interpretations. But, in conversation 'assumptions' are routine, are they not. That means we have understood the language because 'words' are only tools to convey thought and ideas.

Translators couldn't 'translate' if they didn't understand the colloquial idioms.

So, most of my contemporaries have interpreted "heart of the earth" to have meant Him being in the tomb and dead. What about your contemporaries?

Ben

[benherndon]

GRegory, there are some problems about the time of when Jesus died and how long He was in the tomb. It seems to me that Dr. Gent's conclusion that He spent only 'one night and one day' might not be accurate. We 'assume' that He was raised when the earthquake 'hit' in the late night hours, towards dawn, of the first day of the week---Mary found the tomb open and empty towards dawn of the first day of the week. That would qualify, seems to me to have been at least two nights and one day. This still doesn't fit parts of 3 days and 2 nights---because, He wasn't buried at best until about sundown on what we have traditionally thought was the end of Friday. So, the very last minutes of Friday hardly qualifies for being 'one day' or even a 'part' of one day. At least I wouldn't accept it that the last few minutes of Friday could represent ALL of Friday or even a significant 'part' of Friday.

Ben

[Gregory Matthews]

Dr. Ben, I understand you thinking. For one who comes from the culture of which you come from, to include a cultureal way of understanding such speach, you approach is quite reasonable, and possibly the only reasonable understanding.

But, you do not respond to the issues that I raise: Simply put, the fundamental issue is: How would that Hebrew person listening to Christ make that statement understand it?

If that Hebrew pperson would understand it differently than you and I, then we should not force our understanding upon that text. Rather we should intrepret it in light of the understanding that the 1st Cent. Hebrew person would have.

[Gregory Matthews]

Here is a URL that will take you to a place where a point that I have been making is expanded:

http://www2.andrews.edu/~samuele/books/crucifixion/1.html

You folk will recognize it as the site of a well known SDA. I acknowledge that. I do not agree with everything that he publishes. But, in a number of areas I believe that he has written very well. The above URL will be helpful to you-all, I think.

[benherndon]

I had not read Bacchiochi's booklet---if you recall three things I said---(1) that I hadn't studied the subject much and didn't have time right now (2) that I asked for people's views of what Dr. Gent wrote and (3)that I mentioned earlier the important thing about it all was that He WAS, INDEED, resurrected!!!!!!!!!!!

I do not take issue with your comments that I agree with, to wit: that we should figure those who heard His comments knew what the comments meant. My response to that is, well, what do you suppose their understanding was? After all the Bible was written for us---not them!!! So I would assume, perhaps erroneously, that, as the Bible was written and translated, it was written for those who didn't themselves hear His comments!

I just thought it would stir people to study. If nobody else got anything from Dr. Gent's article, I certainly have----from checking the Bible's texts and have personally learned something already, even, whether I agree with Dr. Gent or not.

Thanks for your comments.

Ben

[Gregory Matthews]

Re: "After all the Bible was written for us---not them!!!"

Sorry, I do not agree with that statement. Every one of the books of the Bible was written to a group of people living in the time of the writen. Those who collected the books into what we have today collected them for the people living in their day. This essentially tells us that the Bible, as a collection of books was compiled for people living in the 1st Cent. and before--in its development process.

Of course, I think it is applicable for us today. But it was clearly writen and compiled for people living in a much earlier time.

[Gregory Matthews]

Yes, I know that you stated that you had not read much on the subject. But, I happen to think that it is critical that we sometimes consider Biblical subject within a context of what has been written on that subject previously. That does not mean such is correct. But, if not we need to recognize what has been written before, and show why we do not accept it.

[Gregory Matthews]

Dr. Ben, let me illustrate from another venue:

As you-all know I work as a hospital chaplain in a teaching hospital. Most days, I "round" with the Internal Medecine residents. In our hospital we practice "evidenced based" medicine. During rounds a resident will brief on the treatment being given. The professor will respond: I understand your thinking. I might do it myself. But, what is the evidence to support your position.

Folks, this question means that the resident is to begin to cite published research articles that support the method of treatment. In addition, the resident is to cite the conflicting views, and why this specific treatment was given instead of something else.

Sometimes the response will be that the evidence does not support that tratment, but it is given for other reasons.

My position is that there are some Biblical issues that must be looked at in the context of what has already been written on the subject. The older writing may not be correct. But, they must be recognized, acknowledged, and dwelt with. That is what I am asking in regard to the issue that Dr. Ben has raised. I do not believe that the questions raised about this can be answered outside of what has previously been written on the subject.

Such can be intellectual and academic folly.

[Barbara]

I don't see a reason to be concerened about which day Jesus was crucified. I am just glad he died for our sins so that we one day soon will be able to live with Him in heaven.