What day was Jesus crucified?

[Guest]

The quote: "camel through an eye of a needle" is alot easier to understand if you realize without the vowels included in the word "camel" it's spelled the same way as the word "rope" in Aramaic.

Re-read the verse again and use the word "rope" instead of "camel" and it will make more sense.

just a thought...

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Welcome to Club Adventist, it is good to have you here.

In Christ,

Norman

[Gregory Matthews]

Re: Rope vs. camel:

The ancient manuscripts of the Old tEsatament were first written without vowels, without spaces between words, and they were not divided into chapters and verses.

In later periods of time, uninspired people came along who added vowels, chapters, and verses.

Let me illustrate with the following:

What does the following mean?

thbysrd

It might mean either of the following. The decision would probably be made by context.

The boy is rude.

The bay is red.

[jasd]

Norman,

>>Therefore please do not conclude that I accept this belief because I'm blind or gullible.<<

No, I don’t conclude such a thing; nor do I wish that you subscribe to what I put forward. I believe that Gd’s hand is not shortened that it cannot save; He does save on an individual basis (though not entirely); --and that your belief system is not my business. I dialog an issue because Writ requires it. That said,

I have a mulberry tree that, come first frost, will drop all its leaves during the night. In the morning I’ll see a carpet of chartreuse and shadow beneath that tree, clean, pure, and sparkling -- and will simply absorb and contemplate the beauty of it. I’m relating this to

explain that another person standing beside me might see shades of green in the color chartreuse where instead, I’ll see primary aspects of yellow. We’d both be subjectively and objectively -- right (though I imagine some matters ought not to be perceived so subjectively).

>>Having said that I bring your attention to the plain language and the truth.<<

Ahh, Norman, the certainty of sectarianism and .Orgism...

Quote:

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John 19:14 And it was the preparation of the Passover,

30 When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost. 31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the Sabbath day, (for that Sabbath day was an high day,)

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>>From verse 13 to 34 is one day; the preparation day for both the Sabbath and the actual Passover, when the lamb was killed by the High Priest.<< [ed.]

We might note that the bolded above “when the lamb was killed” preceded (except where other understanding of doctrine compel or permit, such as, that of the Essenes…) the actual Passover by several hours and was part of that which ‘constituted’ -- “preparation of the passover” (Jn 19:14) and NOT the commonly accepted “preparation of the Sabbath”. The text could not be more specific.

That noted:

There is nowhere in the passage verses 13 to 34 whereby one is justified in asserting that

/ the preparation of a Pasch can be transposed to mean the preparation of the seventh-day Sabbath

/ the Pasch and the seventh-day Sabbath ever occurred together on the same (Gd-intended) calendrical date (the certainty of the OT calendar used in Temple times {2nd} was as uncertain {Pesachim 61a[:"red"]*[/]} then, as it is with the present Hillel II calendar {refer to the ‘postponements’} )

The OT calendar is lost.

/ the conjunction of the Pasch and the seventh-day Sabbath defines ‘high day’

[:"red"]*[/]The matter of the 14th Nissan falling upon a seventh-day Sabbath perplexed certain Jews as to the lawfulness of sacrificing the Paschal lamb upon the Sabbath, that is, does Pasch supersede the Sabbath or not? The matter was settled by Hillel of Babylon utilizing Numbers 9:2

I suggest that the three bulleted points above cannot be sustained by Writ. Should I err I am open to correction.

>>Again a high Sabbath is a day when the 7th day Sabbath and another feast day or week coincide. A high day is never a Friday or a Sunday, only a Sabbath.<<

Again, I would appreciate the text, passage, or construct for such a purport.

>>Therefore you only have…<<

I’m sorry, but without the above mentioned corroborative text, passage, or construct -- there is only an unsustainable premise; beg pardon.

>>…and was raised on the 3rd day. … Day 3 Sunday.<<

Without an unassailable affix of a Friday crucifixion -- a Sunday resurrection remains, at best, elusive.

>>Follow the events. Friday (daytime - 1st day) trial, crucifixion and death. Friday night (Sabbath eve) in the tomb. Saturday (Sabbath day) the 2nd day of the 3 - in the tomb. Saturday night. (Sunday, eve 1st eve of the week - 3rd day starts) Still in tomb, Sunday day (Day 3)<<

Yes, one follows the sequence… but there is no foundation offered for the affix Friday as the terminus a quo or starting point.

>>Jesus rises at around sunrise to fulfill the 3 day prophecy.<< [ed.]

There is NO text, passage, or construct to justify one asserting a ‘sunrise’ resurrection.

>>It has to obviously mean that it was figurative and that it was 3 parts of days.<<

Please tell me, would one preferring to read Christ’s words figuratively -- doing so, proscribe those same words as inexact?

>>…here you only have one.<<

Agreed, but it was the ONLY sign given and more importantly, they were the words of Jesus Christ Gd wherein He directly tied His bona fides to the “three days and three nights” text of Jonah 1:17, which same bona fides must be appreciated as something more than numinous. Remember that this was the same Gd by whose word the heavens and the earth were made -- the same Gd who first pronounced, “The evening and the morning were the first day.”

Regardless, that other texts may or may not be read idiomatically, is there any indication anywhere in Writ that Jonah did not spend an actual or non-idiomatic term of three days and three nights in the belly of the fish?

I suggest not. The most obvious indicator constrains Christ by His very words to the similitudine days and nights of Jonah -- however length of time they may have been. My own personal best assessment is that they were meant to be taken as literal or non-idiomatic “three days and three nights”… or else, what’s the point?

>>That's about all for this.<<

Okay, ...neither here nor there, but I don't agree. There is so --very much more…

Thanks, for your observations upon the matter.

[Stan]

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Rabbi Cohen said:

The quote: "camel through an eye of a needle" is alot easier to understand if you realize without the vowels included in the word "camel" it's spelled the same way as the word "rope" in Aramaic.

Re-read the verse again and use the word "rope" instead of "camel" and it will make more sense.

just a thought...

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Pretty Fly for a Rabbi

(Not really sure what that means <img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> )

Hope you can make it to the office sometime soon, would like you to met our new adminstration.

I am gone US Thanksgiving week.

[Pockey]

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Gay4JESUS said:

well who said three days and three nights in the heart of the earth means -THE TOMB ?

It started Thursday night in the Garden of Gethsemne.

'Heart of the earth' has maybe another meaning that most have overlooked.

its worth a thought.

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I agree with Gay4Jesus.

http://www.amazingfacts.org/items/Read_Media.asp?ID=509&x=27&y=19

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Sid,

In studying this and discussing it with Jasd I have realized that their are two times the day preparation is mentioned just before Christ was crucified. There is Thursday night which in Bible times is known as evening 6.

Mark 14:12 "And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?"

This is what we know as Thurday night, the night that Jesus went to the Garden of Gethsemane, the night he was betrayed and the night he was arrested. This would also be the night that the common people killed the Passover Lamb, as was just stated in the above verse. They were not to do that on Sabbath and they had to eat of the Passover lamb so it makes sense that they killed their lambs Thursday night. That way they could eat of it on Sabbath.

Then there was friday morning or day 6 to the Jews

14 "And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth hour: (12pm) and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King!"

This is the preparation of the Passover that the priests killed. Lev 23:5 "In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the LORD's passover." That would be Sabbath eve or our Friday night which would agree which the command in Lev 23: 5 to keep the Passover starting the 14th day which would be the 2nd Sabbath of that month.

Deuteronomy 16: 6 "But at the place which the LORD thy God shall choose to place his name in, there thou shalt sacrifice the passover at even, at the going down of the sun, at the season that thou camest forth out of Egypt."

This is also when Jesus was about to be crucified, the day we call Friday. Jesus was in the tomb 3 days as it is mention in 19 texts of the 4 Gospels, save one text which states 3 days and 3 nights.

The first day of His death was Friday or day six. The next day, the 7th day he was in the tomb. Then on the 1st day He rose from the dead. That's three days just as the Bible had foretold 19 times, save one time. It seems strange to me that some can throw out all 19 verses and try to fit in one verse that is misunderstood by those who hold the one verse and it only as truth.

By those standards no judgment would stand in any court. You have 19 statements that say one thing and what was said turns out to be true: then you have 1 statement that stands alone against the 19 and turns out not to be true. (Meaning He wasn't in the heart of the earth for 3 days and 3 nights but only parts of days and nights) Do you then fight to prove the one statement and ignore the 19? No, you simply realize that you misunderstood what that one verse meant.

Norman

[Pockey]

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Norman said:No, you simply realize that you misunderstood what that one verse meant.

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Hi Norman. Did you get a chance to read the link I posted? Check it out if you get the chance. I think it clarifies things pretty well.

[jasd]

Amazing Facts link:

>>The phrase "in the earth" appears 66 times in the King James Version. Not one of those references refers to the grave.<<

No kidding They wouldn’t would they?

This must suredly have been an early paper of the author's. A case cannot be made that “in the heart of the earth” translates to “in the earth” or vice versa. I anticipate an interesting, informal dissertate in the offing…

>>So the phrase "in the heart of the earth" can easily be translated "in the midst of the world," or in the grip of this lost planet Jesus came to save.<< [ed.]

Et voila, read my above statement. Incorrectly done, many things become ‘easy’. A couple of inferences are deduced from the above snip…

/ Christ was never placed in a tomb/”heart of the earth” but rather "in the midst of the world/in the earth"

/ Christ, by using the future tense (Mt 12:40 …so shall the Son of man be…) attested that He ministered... from whence? as He was yet to be entombed in what the author defines “in the earth/the midst of the earth-implied heart of the earth, which is really ‘upon the earth’...[/puzzzlled]

Like, Jesus was not in the “in the earth/midst of the world” until “his hour” had come? Well, that puts a new light on the location of Christ’s ministry -- meaning, where…?

>>…that as Jonah was in the belly of the great fish, so the Son of Man would be in the heart of the earth.<<

‘As/so/likewise’ -- in the innards… And, upon that snip, …agreement.

>>Notice that Jonah was not stationary in the great fish, as with a dead person in a tomb. Rather, he was a mobile, living captive to go wherever the fish took him. When the fish went up, he went up; and when the fish went down, he went down. In like manner, Jesus was a captive of the devil.<<

Huh!? “don’t get me wrong” but, is there an analogy lurking in the above? if so, it would have to equate in similitude to the earth in its orbit, the sun in its orbit, the arm of the galaxy in its, and so on…; nevertheless, events occur in/at location(s) specific, do they not?

The “heart of the earth” cannot mean dinner at Simon’s; asleep in the boat; touching the eyes of the blind man; etc; whereas, “in the earth” can easily conflate with dinner at Simon’s, asleep…, etc. Were those phrases organically confluent, then

let every sect, cult, .Org or the assertive -- be true.

>>Jesus began bearing our guilt, our shame, and our penalty after He prayed that prayer of surrender…<<

So, having ‘constructed’ an unorthodox analogy -- what the author now advances is… Jonah’s sojourn in the belly of the great fish began upon his surrender to the captain and the crew of the foundering vessel! In other words,

part of the period of Jonah’s three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish was spent on the deck of the vessel and/or elsewhere than in the belly of the great fish!? Umm…[/]

Let’s not forget that it was Jesus who made the analogy to Jonah’s confinement in the belly _nowhere else_ except in the very bowels of the great fish. For the analogy to work

Christ must parallel Jonah’s experience inasmuch as the analogy permits -- the analogy permits three days and three nights in the tomb. There is neither room nor license for construction in Jonah 1:17.

>>Three days in that slimy, stench-filled darkness must have seemed like an eternity.<< [ed.]

In that there is presented no argument for an idiomatic employment of the term -- seems to me that the admittance of the above “Three days in that slimy, …” destroys the author’s own analogy.

>>There are five Bible verses in which Jesus refers to Thursday evening as "the hour."<<

Which same evening/hour requires an affixed Friday crucifixion (to agree with the author's interpretation); which same affix has escaped the confines of text.

>>According to Hebrew law, the sins of the people were to be placed upon the Passover lamb before it was slain.<<

Was there a literal “placing of the sins of the people upon the Passover lamb” or is it by construct only that the statement has validity? Correct me should I err… but,

isn’t type/antitype, though ultimately fulfilled in the “Passover lamb”, actually delineated in the antitypical Day of Atonement rituals? Two kids of goats (the reason the Paschal sacrifice could either be a lamb or a kid goat) and chosen by lot -- why lot? wouldn’t the implication inherent in ‘lot’ be that either or both kids qualify to type Christ? (that would certainly eliminate Satan as the conveyance of the people’s sins, wouldn’t it?) Both kids represented the atoning Christ with both representing different aspects and functions of the Atonement. The one kid was for a sin offering and the other carried the sins of the people to the wilderness of Azazel… (one, Christ was an offering upon the cross and two, quickened by the HS, He carried the sins of the people _a la reference by St Peter_ to the wilderness of Azazel)

>>Now notice the similarities between Jonah's prayer from the fish and the prophetic prayer of the Messiah from the cross.

Jonah 2:3-"For thou hadst cast me into the deep, in the midst of the seas; and the floods compassed me about: all thy billows and thy waves passed over me."

Psalm 69:2-"I sink in deep mire, where there is no standing: I am come into deep waters, where the floods overflow me."<<

Ps 69: To the chief Musician upon Shoshannim, A Psalm of David. … v5 O God, thou knowest my foolishness; and my sins are not hid from thee.

“…thou knowest my foolishness; and my sins…” doesn’t sound like a prayer of the Messiah., does it?

>>Many think that the "sign of Jonah" was the three days and three nights, but notice in the gospel of Luke that when referring to the sign of Jonah, Jesus never mentions the time period at all.<<

Two things…:

/ It is immaterial whether St Luke records Christ mentioning 3d3n. Mt 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man… is not obviated by St Luke’s omission. It is still, very much Writ and -- Christ’s bona fides, witnessing to events as they unfolded.

/ Lu 11:30 For as Jonas was a sign unto the Ninevites, … Perhaps, it is that St Luke’s rendition implicitly or latently includes “three days and three nights”. Nevertheless, St Luke notwithstanding, there is still the evidence of Mt 12:40.

>>As Jonah went down the streets of Nineveh preaching, his skin could very well have been bleached and raw-covered with bits of dried seaweed. There have been at least three examples in modern times where people were swallowed by some type of large fish and were later rescued alive. The reports were that their skin was "burnt and pale." I am sure Jonah shared with his audience the highlights of his adventure and his virtual resurrection from certain death.<<

After having buttressed his arguments with the point in the above “Many think that the sign of Jonah…”, the author proceeds to destroy it in the immediately above paragraph.

The man Jonah would, indeed, have been a walking sandwich board for every perspective proffered by the four Gospel writers -- and others…

[jasd]

By appearances, it seems the consensus is -- that this matter has been plumbed and exhausted. I don’t concur. That said,

I’m also now quit of the matter, however, I thought the following might prove interesting to one or another.

Re: “high day”

Jn 19:31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high {33173} day {#2250},) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and [that] they might be taken away.

#3173 meÑgav (original Greek) megas (transliterated)

#2250 h(meÑra (original Greek) Hemera (transliterated)

hemeran megalen (great day/assemblies/convocations/etc…)

It is said that the translation of Hebrew Writ into the Greek Text occurred in Alexandria sometime circa two-hundred plus years before the Xtian era… not that far removed from the times and complement of the Synoptics and the Gospel of St John. (Alexandria, at the time of Octavian Augustus Caesar, had long been the most cosmopolitan city of the world. It was also the intellectual and religious center of the empire -- as well as the center of Jewish culture (greater even than that of Jerusalem) where it was that many Pharisees received their education [it is my thinking that Jesus’ pedagogues were acquired from this Alexandrian milieu]).

Interlinear Study Bible (OT Greek Text/English) Septuagint

Is 1:13 Bring (8687) no more (8686) vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling (8800) of assemblies, I cannot away with (8799) ; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting.

ou prosqhsesqe ean ferhte semidalin mataion qumiama bdelugma moi estin tav noumhniav umwn kai ta sabbata kai hmeran megalhn ouk anexomai nhsteian kai argian

Interlinear Study Bible (NT Greek Text/English) (1894 Textus Receptus)

Jn 19:31 The Jews therefore, because it was (5713) (5625) (5713) the preparation, that the bodies should not remain (5661) upon the cross on the sabbath day, * (for that sabbath day was (5713) an high day,) besought (5656) Pilate that their legs might be broken (5652) , and that they might be taken away (5686) .

oi oun Ioudaioi ina Mh meinh| epi tou staurou ta swmata en tw| sabbatw| epei paraskeuh hn hn gar megalh| h hmera ekeinou tou sabbatou hrwthsan ton Pilaton ina kateagwsin autwn ta skelh kai arywsin

http://www.searchgodsword.org/isb/bible....=joh&ng=1&ncc=1

Blue Letter Bible

http://www.blueletterbible.org/

Even considering inflections, I don’t think it is difficult to recognize the comparative agreement between the hemeran megalen (great day/assemblies/convocations/etc) of Isaiah 1:13 to that of John 19:31.

It seems to me the Greek Text advances a ‘great/high day’ that is one not necessarily coincident with another but celebrated for its own particular attributes -- possessing its own intrinsic gravity or solemnity.

[jasd]

Lastly, lastly, the addendum…

Having forgotten to include a URL hosting a slight dissertate by the good Dr and eminent scholar Bacchiocchi, Samuel -- and wishing to emend, I find I cannot access my last post to edit, for ‘time … elapsed’. Luckily,

there exists, as there always is in such matters, another avenue… that is, a new post; et voila!

http://www2.andrews.edu/~samuele/books/crucifixion/1.html

And of course, lest it be forgotten, there is in an above post of Sid’s a link to another light in the firmament of SDAism, that is, Bachelor, Doug -- whom I, whenever encountering upon 3ABN, will always stop and listen to, as he has often some worthwhile thing to carry away. That said,

--for the astute, desirous of depth of knowledge, there exists further, no end to papers and assays upon this subject -- such as the many of those by EGW and others who, dare I say? led by estimation of higher learning -- studied, and contributed expositions upon the chronology of events leading to and attending, Christ’s Passion. There is much

‘color’ yet within the matrices of Writ, as well as unexpected surprises.