Is it any wonder that secular people think Christians are weird!?!?

[Gail]

Where does gullibility come in? One does not need even to be a Christian to be gullible.

[Bravus]

Definitely not, and there are lots of New Agers who are much more so than the average Christian, to cite just one group.

That might be a useful approach, actually: maybe these people are just crazy people who happen to be Christians, and believe these things because they are crazy, not because they are Christians. The beliefs line up with (their version of) Christianity, but that's unsurprising.

Someone above mentioned the recent Ron Wyatt discussion here above, and it seems like an instructive example. There were those willing to continue to believe *even in the face of evidence and arguments from other Christians*. That seemed to me like a case where 'faith' slides over into 'I will believe what I want to believe, no matter what'.

[Gail]

This has led to a thought which merits its own thread, and since it is regarding Christianity I will take my thoughts and head over to a theology place.

Keep it going, Bravus!

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

The actual facts point to the fact that the SDA denomination is near the top of the list in reaching the truly unchurched.

Considering that the promise is given in the old Testament;

" “And it shall come to pass afterward That I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your old men shall dream dreams, Your young men shall see visions."Joel 2:28 NKJV

repeated in the new;

"‘And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God, That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh; Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, Your young men shall see visions, Your old men shall dream dreams."

Acts 2:17 NKJV

then coupled with this promise;

"While they are saying, “Peace and safety!” then destruction will come upon them suddenly like labor pains upon a woman with child, and they will not escape. But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief; for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness; so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober."1 Thessalonians 5:3-6 NASB

and this fact that the Seventh Day Adventist church is adding to its' family 1,000,000 souls annually, it is easy to settle into the Truth that Jesus is coming much sooner than most of the world is willing to accept as true, and is comprised of the remnant that will meet Him with joy, even though some may be falling away sad to say.

"Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,"

2 Thessalonians 2:3 NKJV

God cares!

[BobRyan]

I read that article on Salon, considered posting it here and decided not to because I felt the language and approach wasn't sufficiently balanced. So on one hand I do have some sympathy for Bob's point (though not so much with the tangled web of guilt-by-association... the editor of the newspaper is a long reach to go to to try to impeach one story).

But leave aside the language: are there Christians who believe these things? You know there are - because I have seen some of them posted here.

And do we not also find the atheist/agnostic/buddhist/muslim members here or there - that might have picked up on one or two of the salon.com style red herrings?

Did any Christian anywhere in the NT believe something that was ever incorrect? Hmm 2Thess 2:1-2 some Christians thought the 2nd coming had already happened.

Did any disciple believe something "technically incorrect" prior to the crucifixion? Ans: Palm sunday a lot of them thought the Messiah was about to be crowned king and on the next Saturday - they thought he was a false Messiah.

Was there even one single fanatic that came out of the 1844 experience and ever said anything amiss?? hint "holy flesh movement".

There has always been some shred of excuse to smear the group.

The RCC learned this lesson with the Waldenses and the Huguenot in the dark ages. And you can always get a gullible public to go along with salon.com Mother-Jones style campaigns.

No news there.

in Christ,

Bob

[CoAspen]

Thou doth protest waaaaay toooo much! The topic is not about people having 'technically correct' understanding but about the persistent belief or grasping on to the the outer fringes of belief. The thread is not about 'smearing christians' but you are definitely attempting to do that to the topic.

[debbym]

Quote:

The mindset that says faith is belief that occurs in the absence of evidence or in the face of evidence to the contrary leaves people with no defense against these kinds of ideas. If evidence is considered to be irrelevant there is no way of checking and correcting one's ideas against reality.

i think people arepretty vulnerable to imagination, and prejudices, and the media can shape and mold people so quickly.

waves of fear, superstition, or fads can sweep almost any nation, sometimes making some millionaires over night and some paupers.

we are vulnerable to propaganda and persuasion of all kinds.

anyone remember the radio show of the invasion of martians, how people believed it, the average american listening was filled with horror.

anyone who does not have some measure of checks and balances to their thinking is more vulnerable.

so many of us human beings and christians of many faiths are like water the flows to fit the shape of the cup.

our best protection from deception is self distrust, and God trust.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

our best protection from deception is self distrust, and God trust.

God cares!

[Bravus]

(seem to be seeing an awful lot of self trust around abouts here...)

[phkrause]

Quote:

The mindset that says faith is belief that occurs in the absence of evidence or in the face of evidence to the contrary leaves people with no defense against these kinds of ideas. If evidence is considered to be irrelevant there is no way of checking and correcting one's ideas against reality.

i think people arepretty vulnerable to imagination, and prejudices, and the media can shape and mold people so quickly.

waves of fear, superstition, or fads can sweep almost any nation, sometimes making some millionaires over night and some paupers.

we are vulnerable to propaganda and persuasion of all kinds.

anyone remember the radio show of the invasion of martians, how people believed it, the average american listening was filled with horror.

anyone who does not have some measure of checks and balances to their thinking is more vulnerable.

so many of us human beings and christians of many faiths are like water the flows to fit the shape of the cup.

our best protection from deception is self distrust, and God trust.

I'm in agreement and there is one thread in particular that comes to mind when I read your post.

[BobRyan]

Thou doth protest waaaaay toooo much! The topic is not about people having 'technically correct' understanding but about the persistent belief or grasping on to the the outer fringes of belief. The thread is not about 'smearing christians'

This thread presupposes that Mother Jones Editor - Talbot in his extreme leftist Salon.com presents a "fair and balanced" view of Christians from a non-Christian POV - and that these caricaturizations or in some way valid.

Hence - we do not find anyone in real life that we meet on this board for example - that holds that list of beliefs "in real life".

But since it is a leftist slanted list - we would expect them to slip in one or two of their own "agenda items" into the list. We cannot discount that of course.

Clearly Salon.com's wild leftist assumption as the premise can only be had by someone holding to the extreme POV to start with.

I simply point out "the inconvenient detail" that this is the same tactic used in the dark ages to smear the dissenters from the RCC.

I guess we were "not supposed to notice"??

If so - then ... it did not work.

in Christ,

Bob

[CoAspen]

Quote:

But let's be honest, we tend to have more than our fair share and many of those among us seem to have the loudest voices and attract the most attention of the secular media.

If Christians dwell in an alien zone and concoct ideas strange to the rest of the world, how are we ever to connect with them to give them the real good news?

Okay....again....read above what the topic and question is for the post! The article was the jump off point. All you have done is attack the article!!!

[Tom Wetmore]

No, Bob has not even actually attacked the article itself. He has attacked his preconceived ideas of what he thinks of the publication it was in and its editor.

Bravus was right to hesitate to post this article because of its likelihood to inflame partisan passions and engender irrational defensive responses.

That is why I attempted to head that kind of nonsense off at the pass in hopes of going beyond the superficial uncomprehending knee-jerk reactions. And that is why I tried to redirect the train of though back on track after attempts to derail it.

I'm sorry that failed...

[BobRyan]

It is pretty hard to make the case that the extreme left attack on what the left is calling "the Christian Right" and on Christian fundamentals - as "not an issue between liberal and conservative" unless making the point that in fact the leftist group salon.com is attacking all Christians - both liberal and conservative.

And yet -- we have the comments in the OP to the contrary of the quote in the article (as I quoted it) in its opening statement.

The article begins as follows

Quote:

"For the Christian right, having a “faith-based” worldview extends far beyond claims about demons and angels. Unsurprisingly, the world of fundamentalist Christians is absolutely crawling with conspiracy theories, urban legends, and just plain bizarre beliefs "

Details matter as it turns out.

More details.

The Two Crowns

"Then I was shown the people upon the earth. Some were surrounded by angels of God, others were in total darkness, surrounded by evil angels. I saw an arm reached down from heaven, holding a golden scepter. On the top of the scepter was a crown studded with diamonds"

In that account one of the groups is throwing black rocks at the other group.

"The black balls which were thrown after the saints were the reproachful falsehoods put in circulation concerning God’s people by those who love and make a lie. We should take the greatest care to live a blameless life, and abstain from all appearance of evil, and then it is our duty to move boldly forward, and pay no regard to the reproachful falsehoods of the wicked. While the eyes of the righteous are fixed upon the heavenly priceless treasure, they will become more and more like Christ, and thus they will be transformed and fitted for translation. {1T 353.2}"

This may be one reason for not treating smear tactics by certain leftist non-Christian groups over at Mother Jones and Salon.com as if they were credible.

in Christ,

Bob

[Tom Wetmore]

OK. The focus of this is on weird ideas among Christians and not really so much about conservative vs. liberal or politics. So let's refrain from political and liberal vs. conservative whining and mud slinging. And of course Christians are not the only source of lunacy of this sort and not all Christians are wacky nutters. But let's be honest, we tend to have more than our fair share and many of those among us seem to have the loudest voices and attract the most attention of the secular media.

If Christians dwell in an alien zone and concoct ideas strange to the rest of the world, how are we ever to connect with them to give them the real good news?

As already noted, the article was a jumping off point to discuss the above question. It was an example of how Christians are at least sometimes, more often than we are willing to admit, perceived by secular people. When weird ideas seem to persist among Christians, especially ones that draw far too much attention to themselves, like Pat Robertson or Fred Phelps, it tends to eclipse the good we know. But in the perception of those outside of Christianity these wackos are representative of us and we are all dismissed and disregarded in favor of their preconceived ideas of how really off the mark they think we are. They won't even give us a fair hearing.

And Bob, that is exactly what you are doing too. Never mind what the real topic is about. Ignore the question and dwell on your own prejudice, your preconceived ideas of what you think. You claim to be pointing out some "inconvenient details", but just like those that you are so critical of, you totally miss the big picture, totally miss the point. And no matter how many times others try to redirect and get you back to the question at hand, you persist and keep repeating your mistaken view of what we are really talking about.

Persistence in this case is not a virtue. It is just stubbornness.

[Stan]

I have been in non-sda circles and I was widely accepted as an Adventist, and not as a Christians. So many Christians, and sad to say, rightly so in many cases, are viewed as hate-mongers.

[Naomi]

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

this topic reminds me a lot of how I viewed Christians when I was a witch... I thought they were foolish, ignorant, and self-serving - just the opposite of how I wished to be..

I had no use whatsoever for "Christians" of the "name it and claim it" mentality (which is what many or probably MOST of the TV evangelist-types are). It seemed to me that they were using their God as though He was a genie-in-a-lamp. I thought that was very disrespectful to a deity.

I had no use whatsoever for Christians who didn't try to help themselves -- always wanting God to do their work, giving God credit when things went *their* way, but blamed it on the devil when things *didn't* go their way - never taking responsibility for anything themselves.

I also had no use whatsoever for Christians who tried to make me believe outlandish things that *they* believed, regardless of the inanity, lack or proof, and outright obfuscation..

...sometimes I wonder why I'm a Christian now...but then I remember...

[Bravus]

Attacking the previous job of the founding editor of Salon, who is no longer even its editor, is also drawing a hugely long bow.

It's less relevant than it would be to challenge every single post on this site with 'Stan is a Jesuit'.

[M. T. Cross]

this topic reminds me a lot of how I viewed Christians when I was a witch... I thought they were foolish, ignorant, and self-serving - just the opposite of how I wished to be..

I had no use whatsoever for "Christians" of the "name it and claim it" mentality (which is what many or probably MOST of the TV evangelist-types are). It seemed to me that they were using their God as though He was a genie-in-a-lamp. I thought that was very disrespectful to a deity.

I had no use whatsoever for Christians who didn't try to help themselves -- always wanting God to do their work, giving God credit when things went *their* way, but blamed it on the devil when things *didn't* go their way - never taking responsibility for anything themselves.

I also had no use whatsoever for Christians who tried to make me believe outlandish things that *they* believed, regardless of the inanity, lack or proof, and outright obfuscation..

...sometimes I wonder why I'm a Christian now...but then I remember...

I have no use for Christians like that either. But then I have no use for pagans that treat their Gods like vending machines either.... or think that Christians stole everything from them.

I guess I just have no use for that type of person.

[Planey]

It is pretty hard to make the case that the extreme left attack on what the left is calling "the Christian Right" and on Christian fundamentals - as "not an issue between liberal and conservative" unless making the point that in fact the leftist group salon.com is attacking all Christians - both liberal and conservative.

Bob.

Here is a challenge.

Using any search engine you like, try to find even five similar "weird ideas" proposed by Christians who are not from the "Christian Right".

On the other hand it would probably be not all that difficult to find another ten such ideas, other than those already listed, from the same source group that Salon used.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

So many Christians, and sad to say, rightly so in many cases, are viewed as hate-mongers.

I guess I don't get out enough. As an Adventist Christian I've never run into any professed Christian that expressed themselves to me with hatred. Disdain, ridicule, condescension, pity, puzzlement, even ignoring,(could that be termed ignorance) but never hatred.

Maybe I just serve the God Who knows my weaknesses and chooses to give me the protection He knows I need and can't handle on my own, and meets my expectations of Him to make up for the difference between what He knows I need to be and what I presently am.

Ain't God good?

God cares!

[Stan]

>>>>'Stan is a Jesuit'.

WHAT we must expose him, QUICK someone call the ....... well 'those' people......

[Naomi]

I guess I don't get out enough. As an Adventist Christian I've never run into any professed Christian that expressed themselves to me with hatred. Disdain, ridicule, condescension, pity, puzzlement, even ignoring,(could that be termed ignorance) but never hatred.

Maybe I just serve the God Who knows my weaknesses and chooses to give me the protection He knows I need and can't handle on my own, and meets my expectations of Him to make up for the difference between what He knows I need to be and what I presently am.

Ain't God good?

God cares!

.

I think we get back what we put out ... if we look for conflict we will find it. If we are promoting ourselves to be self-righteous; superior to those other people, we will be viewed, at best, as simple minded bigots labeling all Christians as weird (at best). I also believe that the same would prove true if we belong to a certain golf club or perhaps a bridge club and spent out efforts expounding how much better our clubs are compared to 'those other clubs who are probably filled with Jesuits (you know, like someone whom we know and love)

[Neil D]

>>>>'Stan is a Jesuit'.

WHAT we must expose him, QUICK someone call the ....... well 'those' people......

OOh, Stan.....You know as well as I that we have exposed this man as a Jesuit and nothing ever happens...The powers that be don't believe us....or are addicted to the gifts that he provides for them.....

It's greed and the human nature, man.....

pseudo mock or "conspiracy theory or 'whatever' mode-off