Fundamential Questions.

[VeritatisCupitor]

Hi,

I'm not quite sure where I should be posting this thread but I figured I might as well try it here first.

I also welcome you

I can't but wonder, though, what brought you here, to a site mainly populated by believers?

[Gail]

I see...

What was your relationship to the Bible? Just curious, too

I thank you for your honesty. Often I consider honestly admitting what you have admitted to be closer to God than "playing church," for lack of a better way of saying it.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

The "answers/no answers to prayer" issue reminds me of a "prayer experiment" I read about a couple of years ago. It was done by a former Christian, now agnostic/atheist. It's a rather interesting read. Here's some of the write up:

"So I said to myself, surely I can pray to a deity and a non-deity and if prayer does work than I should see more hits for God than I do for the control. In my experiment I chose to pray to the Christian God and Michael J Fox.

"So over the period of a month I picked 16 different things to pray for and then I prayed for each thing twice - once to God and once to Michael J Fox.

"I tried to pick a mixture of things to pray for - some which I would consider realistic things to pray for, some that I would consider a miracle or entirely unrealistic to expect to happen and some which could happen at random, by chance.

"I tried to avoid picking things that were not measurable or at the very least that I could be biased against. For example I wouldn't pray "Today, make me feel happy" but instead I would do something like "Today, have someone say a positive/encouraging thing to me". That was about as close to ambiguous they got - on the most part it was praying for a specific event to occur on that day."

To read the results of the experiment, click HERE

[VeritatisCupitor]

I was from an SDA school so I was taught the fundamentals, reading, prayers, worship, attending church etc.

It was like the Bible is holy, you cannot question it yet nothing made much sense in it.

The bible has always been a source of irritation then relief cus nothing in it made me any closer to god because in it I did not see a loving god but rather a evil god who drove his people to conquer, kill pillage and take lands.

Then in the NT he suddenly has an about face and now wants to show love, caring to gentiles the world over. I see not a god but rather a person going through mid life crisis.

Correct me if I'm wrong but instead of just reading and saying god is good, why not read the bible as it is presented as a historical data and info. If one takes away the emotional element of reading, the stories become a lot darker.

Add the element of evidence or lack of in terms of faith and you'll begin to understand my internal conflict about a benevolent god.

[Gail]

What do you think of Jesus?

[VeritatisCupitor]

The "answers/no answers to prayer" issue reminds me of a "prayer experiment" I read about a couple of years ago. It was done by a former Christian, now agnostic/atheist. It's a rather interesting read. Here's some of the write up:

"So I said to myself, surely I can pray to a deity and a non-deity and if prayer does work than I should see more hits for God than I do for the control. In my experiment I chose to pray to the Christian God and Michael J Fox.

"So over the period of a month I picked 16 different things to pray for and then I prayed for each thing twice - once to God and once to Michael J Fox.

"I tried to pick a mixture of things to pray for - some which I would consider realistic things to pray for, some that I would consider a miracle or entirely unrealistic to expect to happen and some which could happen at random, by chance.

"I tried to avoid picking things that were not measurable or at the very least that I could be biased against. For example I wouldn't pray "Today, make me feel happy" but instead I would do something like "Today, have someone say a positive/encouraging thing to me". That was about as close to ambiguous they got - on the most part it was praying for a specific event to occur on that day."

To read the results of the experiment, click HERE

That gave me a good laugh. I applaud the author's audacity but also cringe at his methods.

This is my own experiment:

1. During a time of severe insomnia where I barely had 2 hrs of sleep for 4-6 months I sincerely asked for forgiveness for sins I had done and to accept him, I asked for his grace to grant me one night of rest that I can claim his grace... for months and months I prayed with zero results.

2. To claim his promise that a good woman is a gift from god.... Guess what those women my empty headed friend introduced to me and some of the contacts I received from the church were less then "good" more like gold diggers or bimbos. That was my prayers being answered lol!

3. My friend asked me to honestly read the bible and seek solace/peace/understandings. Fine, I prayed for his wisdom before reading.... guess what. His "works" made as much sense to me as that of a mortal that was given absolute power and was corrupted absolutely. In the NT it became as a form or atonement for his mistakes and like a parent who has made too many mistakes in his life decided to get back to his children by promising them his kingdom if they just follow him again.

I have probably read more books on religion during that 1 year then my 1 year at a university. From all of Lee Strobel's series of the case for... books to systematic theology to more then a dozen books but I came to one conclusion.

Whatever is written or experienced, nothing will replace a first hand account. Like doubting Thomas I ask for a revelation that I can claim myself.

[VeritatisCupitor]

What do you think of Jesus?

I don't really know. He claims to be the son of god... And that he, the holy spirit and god are one.

Perhaps it is the links to god that taint my view of Jesus but I see him as equal to god.

An indifferent being who's actions are not wholly magnanimous but rather have a hidden agenda. An agenda to show the universe he is good and caring yet his actions hardly seems to be one of a benevolent god but rather a series of social experiments.

[LifeHiscost]

Add the element of evidence or lack of in terms of faith and you'll begin to understand my internal conflict about a benevolent god.

[VeritatisCupitor]

No that is not an answer I saw elsewhere and I am only on one other christian board.

Whether there is an enemy or not the question still remains. His actions/inaction all have consequences to us as his so called children. As children will you accept his words as your creator and god if he promises you his kingdom yet reveals nothing?

Does anyone know if this place even exists? Nothing certain is written in the bible except in glorious yet totally vague terms.

Nicky Gumbel mentioned during one of his alpha programs that he was not a christian then but decided to make a simple prayer, to get a lift to london. He then thought he would like something more and prayed for his mother to have some respite from her insomnia.

Both were granted, now if I was in his shoes I too would start to believe and it would give me a claim to his promises.

I have mentioned that I prayed for years and received nothing. If I were to quote Einstein's view of doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results...

[olger]

Have you participated in any occult activities?

[VeritatisCupitor]

Have you participated in any occult activities?

Huh why would I even consider anything to do with devil worship? I try to even avoid visiting buddhist, taoist, or other such temples. Even a visit to a charismatic church was uncomfortable.

I was brought up in a SDA environment and I am aware of different practices.

[phkrause]

It seems to me, that what I hear you saying in most of your posts, is "if" God does this or that than "I" will believe. I could be wrong but that's what I'm hearing. If I'm wrong I apologize. From my experience's, it seems that we except his "grace" "promises" before not after the fact. Again I could be wrong. Also when you say your not getting any answers to prayer, I'm also hearing its not being answered to my liking? I can tell you from my experience that I have yet to get an answer that was to exactly to "my" liking. Sure I have gotten answers to prayers, maybe not exactly what I expected, but after having time to think about the answer, they were exactly what was needed. God knows what we need better than we know what we need. I also remember someone telling me that if I keep praying over and over again about wanting something so bad, that eventually God will give it to us! Well, at least for me, that has never happened. Because I'm still praying to win the lottery! :)

[VeritatisCupitor]

pkrause,

The issue I face is if there is god. The fact that is I do believe there is a creator/creators of this universe however, it does not make that being a god to be worship especially if it is an indifferent creator.

I will say again, it is not that I have received an answer to my prayers and did not like the reply. I have never received any answered prayer.

If I could recall an answered prayer like recovering from an illness, receiving something I never expected to get, or something I cannot rationalize away I won't be able to say I haven't received his blessings but I can't because I have not.

That is the question I post, are there those out there who question your faith because you too have not received anything from him or how many of you have actually gotten something which strengtherned your faith?

[olger]

Originally Posted By: olger

Have you participated in any occult activities?

Huh why would I even consider anything to do with devil worship? I try to even avoid visiting buddhist, taoist, or other such temples. Even a visit to a charismatic church was uncomfortable.

I was brought up in a SDA environment and I am aware of different practices.

Good, thanks. I was curious, because involvement with that stuff can give ground to the enemy in ways that block our connection with God.

Has there been any measure of abuse in your life? Forgive the personal question - it is important.

G

[BobRyan]

Therefore, I question the existence of not a creator but a benevolent god.

So then you are saying that it is apparent to you that rocks gas and dust do not "turn into a horse" over time - no matter how many times one says "beeeellions and beeelions" over the amount of time for the rocks and gas to get the job done.

But your question is whether or not that Creator God is the God of the Bible - or is in fact kind and loving.

When you get sick and then pray - and then get sicker - is that what you would call a no-answered-to-prayer?

How about when you get sick and then pray and then eventually get well - is that also not an answer?

If your response to every outcome is that it is not an answer - how can you be certain you have never gotten an answer to prayer?

Did you ever lose something - pray to find it - and then find it? Also not an answer to prayer because you were going to find it eventually?

In your opening post you speak of a 20 year timeline since you were baptized as a believing Christian. The clear implication is that you have taken at least a couple of years in that time - to give a good shot at doing things the way God would want - to see if He was real or was at least concerned and involved. Is that a fair assessment of your claim in the OP?

You were a rock solid 100% sold out for Christ Christian during those 20 years? Or for 10 of those 20 years? Or for 5 of those 20 years?

Paul compares the Christian walk - for someone that is a saved born-again Christian - like an Olympic hopeful training for a big event - in 1Corinthians 9. Would you say that pretty much describes your Christian experience for those 20 years, or first 10 years? or first 5 years?

in Christ,

Bob

[M. T. Cross]

Originally Posted By: olger

Have you participated in any occult activities?

Huh why would I even consider anything to do with devil worship? I try to even avoid visiting buddhist, taoist, or other such temples. Even a visit to a charismatic church was uncomfortable.

I was brought up in a SDA environment and I am aware of different practices.

[CoAspen]

Quote:

So my advice would be opposite of Olger's (looks around at all the shocked faces). Maybe look at other beliefs, maybe scope out other spiritual avenues. Maybe that will bring you peace, maybe bring you a spiritual home. It might also bring you back to the God you have tried to build a relationship with thus far. Maybe it will just help you learn to listen.

Yes, I would agree with you. My belief is that the person who is truly seeking will find what they need. It may not agree with what I would do, but I have no desire to control others. If that person is looking for the christian God, then that God will find him! To operate a spiritual life in fear will only leave the person in fear, not happiness.

For my part, I do not wish for a person to live in fear of the christian God, He ain't waiting mash anyone, just the opposite!!

[VeritatisCupitor]

Originally Posted By: VeritatisCupitor

Therefore, I question the existence of not a creator but a benevolent god.

So then you are saying that it is apparent to you that rocks gas and dust do not "turn into a horse" over time - no matter how many times one says "beeeellions and beeelions" over the amount of time for the rocks and gas to get the job done.

But your question is whether or not that Creator God is the God of the Bible - or is in fact kind and loving.

When you get sick and then pray - and then get sicker - is that what you would call a no-answered-to-prayer?

How about when you get sick and then pray and then eventually get well - is that also not an answer?

If your response to every outcome is that it is not an answer - how can you be certain you have never gotten an answer to prayer?

Did you ever lose something - pray to find it - and then find it? Also not an answer to prayer because you were going to find it eventually?

In your opening post you speak of a 20 year timeline since you were baptized as a believing Christian. The clear implication is that you have taken at least a couple of years in that time - to give a good shot at doing things the way God would want - to see if He was real or was at least concerned and involved. Is that a fair assessment of your claim in the OP?

You were a rock solid 100% sold out for Christ Christian during those 20 years? Or for 10 of those 20 years? Or for 5 of those 20 years?

Paul compares the Christian walk - for someone that is a saved born-again Christian - like an Olympic hopeful training for a big event - in 1Corinthians 9. Would you say that pretty much describes your Christian experience for those 20 years, or first 10 years? or first 5 years?

in Christ,

Bob

Hi Bob,

Getting sick and getting better isn't a miracle. Getting cancer and being told by doctors that you have only a few months yet suddenly for no apparent reason that person is shown to be totally free of cancer cells, that's a miracle.

Praying to get well before an exam and not getting better would simply it was not answered, does that even need to be debated?

The questions you pose are as much a paradox like Schrödinger's cat because instead of certainty it creates more uncertainty.

A miracle is a paradox, something that should not happen but did. To say I hit a hammer on a nail and not my finger a gift from god... of course not. To have a broken bone heal in a matter of days instead of weeks is a miracle because it defies the norm.

No one can honestly say they are 100% a rock solid christian otherwise to be as holy as that one would be the equal of Enoc. It is less important to god if a non christian prayed for forgiveness to a god he has only heard about or a pastor praying for a member of his congregation... no. So whether or not I was a 99.99% or 5% rock solid/weak christian would not matter so long as the prayer itself is as sincere and honest as possible.

I would say this for a long time I wanted to believe in God and hoped that he would love me as well. Years of hearing noting, and receiving nothing has made me skeptical of the claim that he is a loving god.

[VeritatisCupitor]

/headdesk

Verit.....

I had the exact same experience as you, from the time I was 3 until I was around 35. There were times that I was certainly touched by other peoples experiences, but there were none of my own. For most of those 30 some years I had faith. I lost my faith in the SDA church as an entity early on, but I really had faith in its God and its message, and that led to a hollow, empty self loathing spiritual torture. That led to a lot of hatred, rage, and general self destructive behaviour.

So my advice would be opposite of Olger's (looks around at all the shocked faces). Maybe look at other beliefs, maybe scope out other spiritual avenues. Maybe that will bring you peace, maybe bring you a spiritual home. It might also bring you back to the God you have tried to build a relationship with thus far. Maybe it will just help you learn to listen.

[M. T. Cross]

I have actually gone to different churches to gather more information and experiences.

I do not fear god at all because if I have experience nothing from him why would I be afraid of nothing?

It's a quest to find a god not just a creator. What experiences have you received that convinced you that there is indeed a god like that claimed in the bible?

Not sure from the way you quoted if you are asking me or CoA.......

[VeritatisCupitor]

Originally Posted By: VeritatisCupitor

I have actually gone to different churches to gather more information and experiences.

I do not fear god at all because if I have experience nothing from him why would I be afraid of nothing?

It's a quest to find a god not just a creator. What experiences have you received that convinced you that there is indeed a god like that claimed in the bible?

Not sure from the way you quoted if you are asking me or CoA.......

Asking, asking everyone. I did not come here to brush away or rationalize away the existence of the christian god but rather to find out the whys, whats and hows to get in touch with god.

What I am looking for are not mere repetition of verses or saying of god is good without any evidence. How would you like it if you went to a country and was told it had a great monument somewhere in it but, every time you asked for directions you were given some vague direction and told go this way or that and you are no closer to it then when you first started?

[M. T. Cross]

I have actually gone to different churches to gather more information and experiences.

I do not fear god at all because if I have experience nothing from him why would I be afraid of nothing?

It's a quest to find a god not just a creator. What experiences have you received that convinced you that there is indeed a god like that claimed in the bible?

[VeritatisCupitor]

Originally Posted By: VeritatisCupitor

I have actually gone to different churches to gather more information and experiences.

I do not fear god at all because if I have experience nothing from him why would I be afraid of nothing?

It's a quest to find a god not just a creator. What experiences have you received that convinced you that there is indeed a god like that claimed in the bible?

Originally Posted By: M. T. Cross

Not sure from the way you quoted if you are asking me or CoA.......

Originally Posted By: VeritatisCupitor

Asking, asking everyone. I did not come here to brush away or rationalize away the existence of the christian god but rather to find out the whys, whats and hows to get in touch with god.

What I am looking for are not mere repetition of verses or saying of god is good without any evidence. How would you like it if you went to a country and was told it had a great monument somewhere in it but, every time you asked for directions you were given some vague direction and told go this way or that and you are no closer to it then when you first started?

You are preaching to the choir here........ that is all I have gotten.

Others, that really have a personal relationship with the biblical god can't give you any evidence or proof nor will they ever claim to be able too. All they can give you is their experience. Thats all there is with deity - I can't prove the gods I honour either. But I have at last found that personal experience. So there is my advice, maybe the monument you want to see is not there for you, but maybe another monument is just waiting for you to look at it.

That is an interesting way to put it. Let me ask you this please... what have you experienced to convince you that there is indeed a god and a loving one at that?

You have seen people who believe the world is coming to an end and walk the streets preaching about the coming end but few people believe them... why? To that person he honestly believes in impending doom. To believe in that person would simply mean I'm as gullible.

To hear about a person's experiences in finding god, one that shows the glory of god that cannot have any rational explanation would be something that would give me some hope. It would not be the same as having experience something personally but at least it might provide me clues to his whereabouts.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Veritat, I once felt very similar to how you feel about God. I was brought up SDA, but was extremely disillusioned with Christianity. However, I didn't go the agnostic/atheistic route, since I felt very strongly about the need to worship. So I became a witch...for a long time - and it wasn't a fluffy bunny Magick that I practiced.

**fast forward** 15 years...

Out of the blue, I got a new job offered to me with great benefits, so I accepted it. After about 3 months into that new job, I became aware that my boss was, among other things, an ordained Adventist minister. The PR guy was an ordained SDA minister. The Oregon SDA Conference office was about 1500 feet from my new office. SDA ministers were constantly visiting my workplace. So, of course, I would be introduced to them. Not only did I become acquainted with the officials and ministers in this Conference, but with the World Officials as well.

How ironic was all of that?! Was it a mere coincidence that I - a practicing witch of the left hand path - would be plunked down amongst all those ("unfortunately," I thought at the time) very nice Adventist ministers?

Lots more "coincidences" happened. Not only where I could see God's hand at work, but also the very malicious and surreptitious workings of my one-time close associate with the pitchfork.

I really hope you will get a firm "HERE I AM" from God, too. :)

[M. T. Cross]

That is an interesting way to put it. Let me ask you this please... what have you experienced to convince you that there is indeed a god and a loving one at that?

You have seen people who believe the world is coming to an end and walk the streets preaching about the coming end but few people believe them... why? To that person he honestly believes in impending doom. To believe in that person would simply mean I'm as gullible.

To hear about a person's experiences in finding god, one that shows the glory of god that cannot have any rational explanation would be something that would give me some hope. It would not be the same as having experience something personally but at least it might provide me clues to his whereabouts.

I believe that the Christian deity exists for the simple reason that I believe that there are deities. It would be highly arrogant of me to say that the deities I worship exist, but the Christian one does not. I do not believe that he/it/them are the one and only almighty manifestation of Divinity. I don't think that any God is at all.

My experiences, there are a lot that are too personal to post, particularily in a place where the majority of the participants think my deities are their Devil or one of his minions, but I have prayers answered, have seen in hindsight the protection they have provided me, had myself pulled back from the brink of suicidal type depression. Many many things have happened to convince me of their presence in my life. Things that I never had happen as a Christian.

This is not to say that the Christian God/Gods are not there, not active in their followers lives, that he/they don't do the very same types of things. I personally think the problem lies in finding a God through a religion. There is IMO a huge difference in approaching deity from a place deep within your soul and approaching deity from under the doctrinal thumbprint of a denomination. Maybe if you really want to know the God of the bible you need to forget all the doctrine you grew up with and just go to him/it/them.