Fundamential Questions.

[VeritatisCupitor]

Veritat, I once felt very similar to how you feel about God. I was brought up SDA, but was extremely disillusioned with Christianity. However, I didn't go the agnostic/atheistic route, since I felt very strongly about the need to worship. So I became a witch...for a long time - and it wasn't a fluffy bunny Magick that I practiced.

**fast forward** 15 years...

Out of the blue, I got a new job offered to me with great benefits, so I accepted it. After about 3 months into that new job, I became aware that my boss was, among other things, an ordained Adventist minister. The PR guy was an ordained SDA minister. The Oregon SDA Conference office was about 1500 feet from my new office. SDA ministers were constantly visiting my workplace. So, of course, I would be introduced to them. Not only did I become acquainted with the officials and ministers in this Conference, but with the World Officials as well.

How ironic was all of that?! Was it a mere coincidence that I - a practicing witch of the left hand path - would be plunked down amongst all those ("unfortunately," I thought at the time) very nice Adventist ministers?

Lots more "coincidences" happened. Not only where I could see God's hand at work, but also the very malicious and surreptitious workings of my one-time close associate with the pitchfork.

I really hope you will get a firm "HERE I AM" from God, too.

[olger]

* Have you read the Great Controversy? It directly addresses how we got here, why good and evil exist, and what is coming.

* There is a lot of power in this world. Not all of it is from the one True God.

* There is only one Creator God. All the rest are false gods, journeymen of the enemy -- who's end is determined. Trust in them and you will be destroyed along with them.

* There is hope. Ask Him to reveal Himself to you. It is not our job to persuade you to trust Him. That is His job.

Rest easy,

`oG

[olger]

As to questions -- I think that is ok. God can handle your questions. Habakkuk asked some strong questions of God, and God accepted that.

Be warned. If you come up with the wrong answers to life's existential questions, you will go into a tailspin. The enemy is at work to get us to distrust God. In other words he wants us to be like himself.

Rejoice always,

`oG

[M. T. Cross]

* Have you read the Great Controversy? It directly addresses how we got here, why good and evil exist, and what is coming.

[VeritatisCupitor]

* Have you read the Great Controversy? It directly addresses how we got here, why good and evil exist, and what is coming.

* There is a lot of power in this world. Not all of it is from the one True God.

* There is only one Creator God. All the rest are false gods, journeymen of the enemy -- who's end is determined. Trust in them and you will be destroyed along with them.

* There is hope. Ask Him to reveal Himself to you. It is not our job to persuade you to trust Him. That is His job.

Rest easy,

`oG

(correction, I just downloaded a pdf version to see if I can get some clues).

No I haven't read the great controversy because I came realize that in order for me to really accept god I need more then the words of others to convince me. My relationship is between me and him and not through the words of someone else. It's like saying I have a wife but I can only see, hear, talk and feel her through someone else.

To realize who is false and who is real doesn't that mean I need to have something to believe in? To falsely believe in a god who claims this or that yet never needs to do anything to obtain our love...

What a great job. Sit back carp, criticize, never needing to lift a finger, when things go right, accept praised/worship when things go wrong just keep repeating "in good time/when you are ready/I have other plans for you/or it's the work of the devil!"

Even the death of christ is a very convoluted story and seems a totally unnecessary act. Why does his son need to die? If god wanted to right things on earth why didn't he come down himself to show that he is willing to bear the weight of sins in the world?

I find nothing in the bible to be straight forward in anyway. Everything in it is open to interpretation and depending on the point of view of that person you could get thousands of different views some of which can be just ridiculous. Since, our intellect is severely limited it stands to reason that the difference between genius and stupidity is genius has limits.

If the bible is meant to guide us then why make it a mishmash of stories, fables, lessons, etc? In the OT god seems to intervene more directly however, after the NT onwards he appears to be much less involved, why?

The god of the bible seems to be a very strange and disconnected being. Acts of overbearing violence, usage of people to punish only to be judged and punished in return, always seeming to test his subjects yet never allowing us to test him back. If there is a genuine case of free will then there much be a equal guidance for the application of free will and the knowledge of making the wrong choices. The love he demonstrates also seem to be highly selective and not at all like a what he claims to be.

What do I need to do or find out in order to understand him better?

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

What do I need to do or find out in order to understand him better?

"If we claim we have no sin, we are only fooling ourselves and not living in the truth. But if we confess our sins to him, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all wickedness. If we claim we have not sinned, we are calling God a liar and showing that his word has no place in our hearts."1 John 1:8-10 NLT

God cares!

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

I'm also very curious why it seems to be such a taboo to test god? One would test drive cars, test ourselves, test relationships that we are involved with to make sure they stand the test of time.

Sounds like a reasonable request to me.

"You are under a curse, for your whole nation has been cheating me. Bring all the tithes into the storehouse so there will be enough food in my Temple. If you do,” says the Lord of Heaven’s Armies, “I will open the windows of heaven for you. I will pour out a blessing so great you won’t have enough room to take it in! Try it! Put me to the test! Your crops will be abundant, for I will guard them from insects and disease. Your grapes will not fall from the vine before they are ripe,” says the Lord of Heaven’s Armies." Malachi 3:9-11 NLT

I've always accepted this from the beginning as an injunction for those who already professed belief in the Lord of Glory, but I would venture to say that if you were to believe Him for just this one thing, He's the One Who has said to put Him to the test, it will bring to your logic that which won't be easy to gainsay unless you just don't want to accept what He offers in proof.

BTW, most of what He has to give me is still to come in the land where He's going to take me, not that we (my wife and I) haven't had an abundance of material wealth we have seen as part of the fulfillment of the promise in the here and now.

"In those days people will live in the houses they build

and eat the fruit of their own vineyards.

Unlike the past, invaders will not take their houses

and confiscate their vineyards.

For my people will live as long as trees,

and my chosen ones will have time to enjoy their hard-won gains."Isaiah 65:21,22 NLT

God cares!

[VeritatisCupitor]

Quote:

I'm also very curious why it seems to be such a taboo to test god? One would test drive cars, test ourselves, test relationships that we are involved with to make sure they stand the test of time.

Sounds like a reasonable request to me.

"You are under a curse, for your whole nation has been cheating me. Bring all the tithes into the storehouse so there will be enough food in my Temple. If you do,” says the Lord of Heaven’s Armies, “I will open the windows of heaven for you. I will pour out a blessing so great you won’t have enough room to take it in! Try it! Put me to the test! Your crops will be abundant, for I will guard them from insects and disease. Your grapes will not fall from the vine before they are ripe,” says the Lord of Heaven’s Armies." Malachi 3:9-11 NLT

I've always accepted this from the beginning as an injunction for those who already professed belief in the Lord of Glory, but I would venture to say that if you were to believe Him for just this one thing, He's the One Who has said to put Him to the test, it will bring to your logic that which won't be easy to gainsay unless you just don't want to accept what He offers in proof.

BTW, most of what He has to give me is still to come in the land where He's going to take me, not that we (my wife and I) haven't had an abundance of material wealth we have seen as part of the fulfillment of the promise in the here and now.

"In those days people will live in the houses they build

and eat the fruit of their own vineyards.

Unlike the past, invaders will not take their houses

and confiscate their vineyards.

For my people will live as long as trees,

and my chosen ones will have time to enjoy their hard-won gains."Isaiah 65:21,22 NLT

God cares!

In fact that is what I'm asking for, that he take care of me. I will offer him whatever I have which is sadly less then nothing more then debts. If he takes care of them, that would really be something but I'm not foolish enough to believe that is possible.

A request for a good woman when I am still looking for a decent job that I can take care of her would also be asking for the impossible in this materialistic society.

So let me ask this of him. Help me find a fulfilling and righteous job/career that isn't based on lies and deceit (I am a financial consultant) so I should know how the finance/banking system works.

Through that I would have the faith to continue on my journey and hopefully find another good woman and be able to not just be a christian but bear witness to his existence.

For years whenever, I was asked why or how I got into Christianity I would mumble something related to my family. I was rather embarrassed that I was a christian because I did not really believe in it.

Would a rational person choose a religion that:

Demands absolute faith/devotion.

Provides little guidance, almost no evidence of potential gifts/rewards.

Condemns you as guilty until you can prove that you can be innocent.

Expects you to die and protect the faith yet allows the very evil that would persecute you to flourish?

Logically, I have to be a delusional/masochistic/submissive slave without any free will to accept such a ridiculous notion... yes?

So why would rational people accept this religion unless:

1. They have nothing much in life and would gladly believe in having a better afterlife and so cling on to this religion because of the promises contained within it.

2. They have everything and perhaps want more in life then material wealth.

3. Have no where else to turn to and desperately hope that this would give them hope and a better afterlife.

4. They are like sheep and would gladly be led anywhere so long there is food/grass along the way.

5. They have found the secret hidden truth and understand it.

[BobRyan]

So then you are saying that it is apparent to you that rocks gas and dust do not "turn into a horse" over time - no matter how many times one says "beeeellions and beeelions" over the amount of time for the rocks and gas to get the job done.

But your question is whether or not that Creator God is the God of the Bible - or is in fact kind and loving.

When you get sick and then pray - and then get sicker - is that what you would call a no-answered-to-prayer?

How about when you get sick and then pray and then eventually get well - is that also not an answer?

If your response to every outcome is that it is not an answer - how can you be certain you have never gotten an answer to prayer?

Did you ever lose something - pray to find it - and then find it? Also not an answer to prayer because you were going to find it eventually?

In your opening post you speak of a 20 year timeline since you were baptized as a believing Christian. The clear implication is that you have taken at least a couple of years in that time - to give a good shot at doing things the way God would want - to see if He was real or was at least concerned and involved. Is that a fair assessment of your claim in the OP?

You were a rock solid 100% sold out for Christ Christian during those 20 years? Or for 10 of those 20 years? Or for 5 of those 20 years?

Paul compares the Christian walk - for someone that is a saved born-again Christian - like an Olympic hopeful training for a big event - in 1Corinthians 9. Would you say that pretty much describes your Christian experience for those 20 years, or first 10 years? or first 5 years?

[BobRyan]

Would a rational person choose a religion that:

Demands absolute faith/devotion.

Provides little guidance, almost no evidence of potential gifts/rewards.

Condemns you as guilty until you can prove that you can be innocent.

Expects you to die and protect the faith yet allows the very evil that would persecute you to flourish?

Logically, I have to be a delusional/masochistic/submissive slave without any free will to accept such a ridiculous notion... yes?

So why would rational people accept this religion unless:

1. They have nothing much in life and would gladly believe in having a better afterlife and so cling on to this religion because of the promises contained within it.

2. They have everything and perhaps want more in life then material wealth.

3. Have no where else to turn to and desperately hope that this would give them hope and a better afterlife.

4. They are like sheep and would gladly be led anywhere so long there is food/grass along the way.

5. They have found the secret hidden truth and understand it.

The work of the Holy Spirit on the lost is to "convict the World of sin and righteousness and judgment". John 16.

in Romans 1 - God says that even non-Bible aware pagans are "without excuse" because the invisible attributes of God are "clearly seen through the things that have been made".

In Romans 2 - God says that there exists non-Bible aware gentiles that "do instinctively the things of the law showing the works of the law written on the heart" - and claims that they will be saved in the future judgment because they have been following the leading of the Holy Spirit, have been born again with the new heart and are true people of God.

God was in Christ reconciling the World to Himself on the cross. Christ paid our debt of sin so that we will not have to pay it in the lake of fire. God has a lot of "skin in the game" working on our behalf for our salvation. But in this free will system - He leaves it up to us not to choose to jump off the cliff into the lake of fire, no matter that such a costly way of escape has been made for us.

in Christ,

Bob

[VeritatisCupitor]

Quote:

So you had cancer and did not get well? Your church prayed for people with cancer and none of them got well?

Let's flip this around. Are you saying that every time my church prays for someone to recover from cancer it will happen? If some got well and some did what does it prove? It proves that either the prayer was not answered or answered or that the meds work or didn't.

I say again getting sick and getting better isn't a miracle unless one forgets the idea of modern medicine. I specifically mentioned a case where to prove a miracle it would be where there was no hope of that person recovering even with aggressive treatment... hence the part about having only a few months...

Quote:

That is like saying - "whether I read the instructions and tried that chain saw as recommended - or whether I just started smacking it against a tree really doesn't matter - it does not seem to work".

Surely you would agree.

I'm sure you would agree that the thief on the cross was not 100% a christian too. Is the prayer of a christian mother who's child is dying not 100% To presume to say you know my motives when I prayed for rest or for gift of his sight was something other then what it is would imply that you can read my mind?

Are the prayers from various pastors, friends, family all suspect too because all have some other motives as well? Unless such a prayer/divine answer for my rest from insomnia have any material/social benefit that could be marketed for profit I think you presume too much.

Quote:

The actual Bible says "you do not have because you do not ask... you ask and do not receive because you ask with wrong motives... friendship with the world is hostility towards God". James 4.

And then Is 59:1-2 "God's hand is not so short that it cannot save neither is his ear so dull that it cannot hear - but your sins have made a separation between you and your God".

And James 1 says of the doubter "let not that man expect that he will receive anything from the Lord" James 1:7.

The prayer that God always hears from the wayward sinner who repents is "I repent with all my heart - be merciful to me a sinner. I claim the blood of Christ for forgiveness of sins" - and from that moment on God's command is "take up your cross and follow Me" Matt 10.

Your response seems to be that it does not matter what the owner's manual from the manufacturer says about how it works - it should work for you even if you are only 5% in the game and not 110% in.

Yet the text says that is not how it works. You can't test something to see if it works - by doing the very thing that the manufacturer says does not work.

in Christ,

Bob

Does the prayer of deliverance of every child who sees his parents suffering come true? The prayer of a child... can you find something purer that that?

Instead of a pastor or deacon, why not call upon the unsullied children of a church to pray for deliverance and see if god accepts those prayers more then that of the elders. There should be a higher chance of answered prayers?

Quote:

God was in Christ reconciling the World to Himself on the cross. Christ paid our debt of sin so that we will not have to pay it in the lake of fire. God has a lot of "skin in the game" working on our behalf for our salvation. But in this free will system - He leaves it up to us not to choose to jump off the cliff into the lake of fire, no matter that such a costly way of escape has been made for us.

I did not question that Christ died for our sins, I questioned the method/methods? God through Jesus die for our sins... why not just God taking on the weight of our sins himself? Was jesus necessary in the first place? There has been a lot spoken about the purity of christ, what more the creator himself?

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

There is one prayer, if asked in sincerity, that will not fail to be answered. Ask the Lord to show you clearly your sins that you may repent. Forget all the doubts and questionings for now, they just give you a full-time job away from looking at your own missteps.

Seek to know what is right in God's eyes and ask for strength to do it

Matt 5:6 Blessed [are] they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

Matt 6:33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

James 5:16 .. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

God cares!

[phkrause]

No I haven't read the great controversy because I came realize that in order for me to really accept god I need more then the words of others to convince me. My relationship is between me and him and not through the words of someone else. It's like saying I have a wife but I can only see, hear, talk and feel her through someone else.

Now that's an interesting reply Ver, because are you not asking the rest of us to tell you what we think?? Don't get me wrong, you have every right to ask all the questions you want, and to whom ever you want. The problem is anyone can tell you anything, but I do pray we can give you answers that will help.

[BobRyan]

Quote:

So you had cancer and did not get well? Your church prayed for people with cancer and none of them got well?

Let's flip this around. Are you saying that every time my church prays for someone to recover from cancer it will happen? If some got well and some did what does it prove?

[BobRyan]

Quote:

Are the prayers from various pastors, friends, family all suspect too because all have some other motives as well? Unless such a prayer/divine answer for my rest from insomnia have any material/social benefit that could be marketed for profit I think you presume too much.

Many people died in the flood. Many will perish at the 2nd coming. Many perished at the fall of Jerusalem to the Babylonians. But Daniel was preserved - so also Noah.

In the NT - Dorcas dies even though the church prays for her - and then Peter comes and raises her from the dead.

I am not claiming to unravel every single scenario on earth - with that reference to the Bible view of unnanswered prayer. I am just pointing out that when mankind enters a path of rebellion and then somehow expects all the emergency exists and seat belts to work just the same as if they were fully complying with the "Stay in your seat this is a bumpy ride" signs - well it does not always work to go against the manufacturer's warnings.

Quote:

The actual Bible says "you do not have because you do not ask... you ask and do not receive because you ask with wrong motives... friendship with the world is hostility towards God". James 4.

And then Is 59:1-2 "God's hand is not so short that it cannot save neither is his ear so dull that it cannot hear - but your sins have made a separation between you and your God".

And James 1 says of the doubter "let not that man expect that he will receive anything from the Lord" James 1:7.

The prayer that God always hears from the wayward sinner who repents is "I repent with all my heart - be merciful to me a sinner. I claim the blood of Christ for forgiveness of sins" - and from that moment on God's command is "take up your cross and follow Me" Matt 10.

Your response seems to be that it does not matter what the owner's manual from the manufacturer says about how it works - it should work for you even if you are only 5% in the game and not 110% in.

Yet the text says that is not how it works. You can't test something to see if it works - by doing the very thing that the manufacturer says does not work.

Quote:

Does the prayer of deliverance of every child who sees his parents suffering come true?

I don't think so. Take a look at the children that perished in the fall of Jerusalem. They suffer - but notice the end of Matt 23 "How I wanted to spare your children as a mother hen gathers her chicks under her wings -- but you would not".

Do we not all live in a world of sin and death and illness and crime and suffering due to the decision of Adam and Eve? Do we not all suffer the consequence of their mistake?

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Since we are on the subject.

I do know of a family that might interest you. A mother of 3 small children was driving to the store one day when the 3 year old somehow fell out of the car while it was turning a corner. Fortunately he was not hurt too bad and so he got up and began running down the middle of the road after his mother as the car kept moving for she was not aware of the loss of one passenger.

Sadly for that little boy - a drunk driver was coming down the road and never even saw the boy. It was all over before he even began to put on his breaks. They did not wait for ambulance - they just put the boy in the back of the car and took him to the E.R. where it was found that he was in a coma and after some tests it was determined that he would probably not survive.

The mother and father were both heart broken and asked the church for prayers as their child was unconscious in the hospital day after day. The father was a doctor working for the Air Force and the mother a school teacher. After talking it over they decided that if the boy was going to die - it would be better if it were at home than at the hospital. So they took him home. Prayers all around - and before you know it that little boy woke up - paralyzed on one side of his body barely able to see out of one eye and facing a possibly short life of seizures as well as other inconvenient complications.

But that was then.

That boy has grown up, had a family and lived a life with no complications or effects of any kind from the accident other than the pictures and the stories from family members. I can assure you that he is difficult to persuade against the Bible teaching on the reality of God who hears prayers and cares about the affairs of daily life. To the contrary - every day a blessing direct from the hand of God.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

There is another story - one about someone that was unfortunate enough to be at ground zero when the A-bomb was dropped in Hiroshima. Not a scratch on them - and no radiation poisoning. Not just one person, not just two. But 20 people inside the 2 mile radius of ground zero - not a scratch on them. No radiation poisoning. All the members of that one SDA church - survived right under the blast of an atomic bomb -- at ground zero.

It will be difficult to convince them or their family members that there is no God who cares about the affairs of life.

in Christ,

Bob

[VeritatisCupitor]

Guys,

Thanks for all the replies. Now I am not demanding that god does this or that or else I won't be praying. That he reveals himself is a simple and honestly a request that seems rather ridiculous IMO. He claims he's waiting at the door, yet other deities are not just waiting at the door they are are willing to intervene directly. To say that god will only receive a prayer of repentance would seem rather limited. Did not god intervene on saul/paul? How ironic that he appears to a persecutor and stays mute to his other followers?

As for why I do not believe that getting better is god's grace is because there is no way to substantiate that it is a gift or just medicine working. Just like if the wind blows from the sea to land during the day isn't a miracle it's convection. I won't say that god doesn't exists in every day things I'm saying that it's a moot point in this context because it is not possible to verify. So please read what I am asking... proof of god.

As I said I'm on a personal quest to find god and if I were to blindly believe in any gift when it is something as simple as the workings of antibiotics I would be no better then the fool who believe in street magic.

For this argument the fundamentals are:

1. Proof that there is god not just a creator.

2. A benevolent, malevolent or an indifferent being.

3. A method to communicate to him and receive blessings.

Now why am I so adamant to get these answers because of what he demands of us...

We will be persecuted... The religion which is current in our day is not of

the pure and holy character that marked the Christian faith in the

days of Christ and His apostles. It is only because of the spirit

of compromise with sin, because the great truths of the word of

God are so indifferently regarded, because there is so little vital

godliness in the church, that Christianity is apparently so popular

with the world.

If I am going to be persecuted for a belief it had better be worth it or else it would be a utter scam. Our emotions are probably the weakest form of proof because what can make us happy today can be equally unpleasant tomorrow whereas a miracle that cannot be rationalized away is proof because it neither relies on emotion or science, it's beyond all that. If I can receive a sign a clear sign I would believe.

To say that one should not test god would imply that we are mere sheep. Why can't we test god when he has made such unbelievable claims. To take his words seriously wouldn't it be sensible not just using intelligence and choice to verify at least some of these gracious claims. God of love and peace... fine show me some of it in his way.

Everyone has said that the experience of receiving god is mostly a transcendent experience and cannot be explained or proven. I ask that you consider the ramification of this experiment because it could mean the difference between a false or true belief.

http://www.psychedelic-library.org/pahnke3.htm

I would be very hesitant to believe in god simply because my body chemistry suddenly overwhelms me with feelings of rapture. Like how some people could be so overcome by excitement at the mere sight of their music idol that they faint... what fallacy!

Back OT, I have been reading the great controversy and I need some clarification.

"There have ever been two classes among those who profess

to be followers of Christ. While one class study the Saviour's

life, and earnestly seek to correct their defects and conform to

the Pattern, the other class shun the plain, practical truths which

expose their errors. Even in her best estate, the church was not

composed wholly of the true, pure, and sincere. Our Saviour

taught that those who wilfully indulge in sin are not to be received

into the church; yet He connected with Himself men who

were faulty in character, and granted them the benefits of His

teachings and example, that they might have an opportunity to

see their errors and correct them."

If disciples like Thomas and Peter have faults that are vividly explained in the bible how are they any different then us? Thomas doubted seeing jesus even though he had been with him all along and even when jesus stood in front of him he still wanted proof that he was jesus.

Peter denied knowing Jesus 3 times, sank into the waters when he looked away. These are just the many examples of instances in the bible where his own people turned away from him. What does that say about people in general. We all sin we all are a long ways away from being holy so I question what/how or method to speak to god.

"How striking the contrast between the overbearing pride of this

haughty pontiff and the meekness and gentleness of Christ, who

represents Himself as pleading at the door of the heart for

admittance, that He may come in to bring pardon and peace,

and who taught His disciples, “Whosoever will be chief among you,

let him be your servant.”91

I am curious about the relationship and actions between god and jesus. Jesus represents love and peace, meekness etc whereas god represents power, judgement and force so why the need for good cop bad cop routine?

Why would the mere eating of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil condemn adam, eve and all his decendents to death? To condemn a whole race of people to death for one mistake doesn't not speak well about god's methods.

The 10 commandments were said to be from god yet is also found in the book of the dead in the negative confessions. Which is the chicken and which is the egg?

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

No one can honestly say they are 100% a rock solid christian otherwise to be as holy as that one would be the equal of Enoc.

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"Romans 3:23 KJV

Enoch was taken to be with his Father because he made it a habit of walking with Him, not because he was holy.

"Then Enoch walked with God three hundred years after he became the father of Methuselah, and he had other sons and daughters. So all the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty-five years. Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him."Genesis 5:22-24 NASB

He is an exception that proves the point that none of us need lose hope that our God is as capable of removing us from this sin sick world as the next person who is willing to yield his own time to his Maker.

"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God."Hebrews 12:2 KJV

God cares!

[LifeHiscost]

If you wish to get some straight answers from a person who was a high priest in the occult, and now serves the Lord Jesus, try this half hour (there is two available by the same person being interviewed).

http://www.itiswritten.com/television/episodes/8156

God cares!

[VeritatisCupitor]

Quote:

No one can honestly say they are 100% a rock solid christian otherwise to be as holy as that one would be the equal of Enoc.

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"Romans 3:23 KJV

Enoch was taken to be with his Father because he made it a habit of walking with Him, not because he was holy.

"Then Enoch walked with God three hundred years after he became the father of Methuselah, and he had other sons and daughters. So all the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty-five years. Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him."Genesis 5:22-24 NASB

He is an exception that proves the point that none of us need lose hope that our God is as capable of removing us from this sin sick world as the next person who is willing to yield his own time to his Maker.

"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God."Hebrews 12:2 KJV

God cares!

The events surrounding enoch are rather controversial, from how the book is unrepresented in the bible to the debate about it's authenticity to the manner in which enoch was taken away. I has been written vague terms like "he pleased god or he walked with god" neither gives an account of why he and only he was taken?

Furthermore his books mentions the interactions of watches with morals and the resulting giant offspring (Nephilim). The how and why he was taken away is debated but it is evident that he possessed knowledge that is regarded highly controversial even to this day. So his being taken away could be interpreted as pleasing to god, follower of god or silenced because of his knowledge.

[M. T. Cross]

If you wish to get some straight answers from a person who was a high priest in the occult, and now serves the Lord Jesus, try this half hour (there is two available by the same person being interviewed).

http://www.itiswritten.com/television/episodes/8156

God cares!

Define the Occult

oc·cult [uh-kuhlt, ok-uhlt] Show IPA

adjective

1.

of or pertaining to magic, astrology, or any system claiming use or knowledge of secret or supernatural powers or agencies.

2.

beyond the range of ordinary knowledge or understanding; mysterious.

3.

secret; disclosed or communicated only to the initiated.

4.

hidden from view.

5.

a.

not apparent on mere inspection but discoverable by experimentation.

b.

of a nature not understood, as physical qualities.

c.

dealing with such qualities; experimental: occult science.

The highlighted bits can all be applied to Christianity.

[VeritatisCupitor]

If you wish to get some straight answers from a person who was a high priest in the occult, and now serves the Lord Jesus, try this half hour (there is two available by the same person being interviewed).

http://www.itiswritten.com/television/episodes/8156

God cares!

I will check it out. On the topic of information via the net. How does all the filth on it affect christian faith? Everywhere there is porn or violence, how does porn affect us as christians to receiving god?

[M. T. Cross]

If you wish to get some straight answers from a person who was a high priest in the occult, and now serves the Lord Jesus, try this half hour (there is two available by the same person being interviewed).

http://www.itiswritten.com/television/episodes/8156

God cares!

Well LHC...... I watched it and that was a half hour of my life I will never get back.

What you have there is a very sincere man that suffered from mental illness and went looking for a spiritual cure. He happened upon a very good scam artist that took total control of him. Someone suffering from depression or other mental illness's is a prime candidate for people like that. The New Age movement was/is full of people like that, but then so is Christianity. "Send me five million dollars or the Lord will take me away" sound familiar. Every religious umbrella has people like that under it. I had to laugh at the whole "priest" thing (btw he never claimed to be a HIGH priest, just a priest") cause its such an ambiguous claim.

So if he was going down such a bad road, when he first started searching where was your God, your holy spirit to guide him down the right path?

Thing is, he was right about something. Occult practices can be dangerous to ones mental stability. As I highlighted in my above post that would include Christianity.

I will give you a little testimony, outside my own personal experience, though still very personal to me.

My dad was a dedicated, dedicated SDA and Christian. He lived every moment of his life for his faith. He had every book from the church that you and others have ever mentioned. Everything EGW ever wrote, the revised versions thereof, 5 or 6 different translations of the Bible. In the 40 years of my life that my dad was alive I think he might have missed attending church 3 times.

But you see, my dad is one of the biggest reasons I first walked away from the SDA church and later from Christianity. For my dad was the most spiritually tortured person I have ever seen. It bred in him bigotry that he could not stand, it bred in him a fear that everything was a test of God or a temptation of the Devil though he saw the irrationality of that. Every moment of his life was conflict and pain. I have been told that in the final moments of his life, as he knew he was going to die, that he was very calm and quite happy. I suspect that it was more to do with the knowledge that he was going to be free from the struggle that his religion and faith had yoked him with than any of the medication he was on.

My mother......... well she just ended up crazy as a loon. I remember her getting rid of all her EGW books and saying she should have done it 20 years earlier. Sadly it was too late as she was already as cracked as a walnut and causing everyone around her incredible amounts of pain and anguish.

I saw in myself the very nature of my father, but I thank all things Divine that I was able to see that in myself and not go down the same path of pain and anguish.

So you see my friend, there is danger lurking in all religion. There are pariah out there waiting to prey on the weak, there are weak and unstable willing to fall for any message that gives them a glimmer of hope. Sadly often as not that message is delivered by charlatans and scam artists. Just as often the message is delivered cloaked in layer after layer of denominational doctrine and smothers it, colours it, and taints it.

Veratitus.......... please Question your God! Challenge him! Call him out and demand something relevant to the world you live in. Seek him out personally,read everything your read with a healthy dose of salt. If he is listening and cares, the best way to him is direct.

[VeritatisCupitor]

Originally Posted By: LifeHiscost

If you wish to get some straight answers from a person who was a high priest in the occult, and now serves the Lord Jesus, try this half hour (there is two available by the same person being interviewed).

http://www.itiswritten.com/television/episodes/8156

God cares!

Well LHC...... I watched it and that was a half hour of my life I will never get back.

What you have there is a very sincere man that suffered from mental illness and went looking for a spiritual cure. He happened upon a very good scam artist that took total control of him. Someone suffering from depression or other mental illness's is a prime candidate for people like that. The New Age movement was/is full of people like that, but then so is Christianity. "Send me five million dollars or the Lord will take me away" sound familiar. Every religious umbrella has people like that under it. I had to laugh at the whole "priest" thing (btw he never claimed to be a HIGH priest, just a priest") cause its such an ambiguous claim.

So if he was going down such a bad road, when he first started searching where was your God, your holy spirit to guide him down the right path?

Thing is, he was right about something. Occult practices can be dangerous to ones mental stability. As I highlighted in my above post that would include Christianity.

I will give you a little testimony, outside my own personal experience, though still very personal to me.

My dad was a dedicated, dedicated SDA and Christian. He lived every moment of his life for his faith. He had every book from the church that you and others have ever mentioned. Everything EGW ever wrote, the revised versions thereof, 5 or 6 different translations of the Bible. In the 40 years of my life that my dad was alive I think he might have missed attending church 3 times.

But you see, my dad is one of the biggest reasons I first walked away from the SDA church and later from Christianity. For my dad was the most spiritually tortured person I have ever seen. It bred in him bigotry that he could not stand, it bred in him a fear that everything was a test of God or a temptation of the Devil though he saw the irrationality of that. Every moment of his life was conflict and pain. I have been told that in the final moments of his life, as he knew he was going to die, that he was very calm and quite happy. I suspect that it was more to do with the knowledge that he was going to be free from the struggle that his religion and faith had yoked him with than any of the medication he was on.

My mother......... well she just ended up crazy as a loon. I remember her getting rid of all her EGW books and saying she should have done it 20 years earlier. Sadly it was too late as she was already as cracked as a walnut and causing everyone around her incredible amounts of pain and anguish.

I saw in myself the very nature of my father, but I thank all things Divine that I was able to see that in myself and not go down the same path of pain and anguish.

So you see my friend, there is danger lurking in all religion. There are pariah out there waiting to prey on the weak, there are weak and unstable willing to fall for any message that gives them a glimmer of hope. Sadly often as not that message is delivered by charlatans and scam artists. Just as often the message is delivered cloaked in layer after layer of denominational doctrine and smothers it, colours it, and taints it.

Veratitus.......... please Question your God! Challenge him! Call him out and demand something relevant to the world you live in. Seek him out personally,read everything your read with a healthy dose of salt. If he is listening and cares, the best way to him is direct.

M. T. Cross I am sorry to hear that you had to go through what you did.

I too have a lot of anger however, for the sake of giving one last go I will just question instead of demand, verify instead of just rejecting and see if this course and the alpha program I am current going through is going to yield any fruits or be just a waste of time.

I can understand your rejection of Christianity because of your experiences and despite being as faithful to god, you see your father's life as one of pure agony not the peace or relief that was promised.

I too walked away from church for a lot of different reasons and like you I see more harm then good around. Like you I question the futility of this religion, this practice that is as illogical and unbelievable as any scam. I no longer see god or jesus as anything more then fiction and stories created to instill fear and obedience or promises of love and peace to those for whom intimidation won't work. Hence the good cop bad cop routine, god the bully, jesus the comforter, the holy spirit the messenger.

There are so many unanswered questions about what is here on earth and absent from the bible that I often wonder if the authors were somehow blind to the facts.

When god banished adam and eve because they ate of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil I wondered what knowledge was so dangerous that resulted in them not only being banished, becoming mortal and have their descendents suffer the same fate? The whole story sounded like a soap drama where the father got bored of his children and came up with a ploy and excuse to get rid of them forever. "Don't you dare eat my pie, or touch this or go into my study room!"

That they only realized how naked they were after eating the fruit could only mean how ignorant and blind they were before.

Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. (Exodus 20:5, 6)

We all know that jealousy can lead to a lot of other ills yet he proudly proclaims how he would punish not just those who sinned again him but generations after. It would seem that there really isn't free will at all? Do or die not that we won't die anyway.