Pagan holidays in our church:

[Gregory Matthews]

M. T. Cross scored the point on this round.

This world has been so corrupted that paganism can be associated with just about everything that we do. It can be associated with Christmas and Easter. It can be associated with some of the religious rites of Israel. Hinduism and the birth of Hindu gods can be associated with every day of the standard year.

There comes a point where the central issue is what we do and the associations that we attribute to what we do.

When we worship on the Sabbath, are we celebrating a Roman god, or the God that redeemed us.

Easter is a Christian day that is close to the day that Christ rose from the dead. It may not be exact, but it is close. Are we giving thanks for our salvation on that day, or are we celebrating the fertility symbol inherent in a rabbit?

[Textus Receptus]

Originally Posted By: M. T. Cross

If you want to get technical then, your Sabbath is on Saturday which is named after the God Saturn. Are worshiping him then? Wednesday Thursday and Friday are named after Pagan Gods as well......... possibly everyone should throw up their hands and panic about that as well.

Actually MT the 7th day was already here before the days were named!

Exactly Pkrause!

[phkrause]

M. T. Cross scored the point on this round.

This world has been so corrupted that paganism can be associated with just about everything that we do. It can be associated with Christmas and Easter. It can be associated with some of the religious rites of Israel. Hinduism and the birth of Hindu gods can be associated with every day of the standard year.

There comes a point where the central issue is what we do and the associations that we attribute to what we do.

When we worship on the Sabbath, are we celebrating a Roman god, or the God that redeemed us.

Easter is a Christian day that is close to the day that Christ rose from the dead. It may not be exact, but it is close. Are we giving thanks for our salvation on that day, or are we celebrating the fertility symbol inherent in a rabbit?

I agree Gregory that this world is corrupt, but this all happen after Creation. So the 7th day was here long before someone decided to name the days.

[phkrause]

M. T. Cross scored the point on this round.

Oh and one more thing, I'm not making replies to score points to win any rounds. I believe MT knows me enough to know I'm trying to one up him or him one up me. He has his opinion and I have mine.

[ClubV12]

My wedding ring comment was of course tongue in cheek and I see Gail got it, I had to chuckle.

BUT, the ring/jewlery issue played a significant part in my conversion. The evangelist, one night, wore this HUGE (no doubt fake) diamond ring. His topic was outward show, adornement, display. The big ring was a prop to illustrate the point. Boy did I get the point! Parked outside was my totally over the top, eye popping, chrome infused, racing stripped car. And that evangelist kept looking directly at ME, I got the message all right. And decided I wouldn't be back, these guys would make me sell my car if I joined this Church and THAT was unthinkable! Never happen, I'm outta here. I told the evangelist on the way out, "It's been nice, but I won't be returning". He told me I HAD to return, I knew to much, been there to long, I was a survivor. He spoke with such authority I was startled. I considered his plea and decided maybe I would come back for one or two more meetings (without the car). Folks assured me I didn't have to sell the car and that was a relief. But eventually, the Holy Spirit let me know it would be the best thing all around. I sold it some months later.

So you see, "wedding rings" and that issue, do have a place in my conversion. Now let us find the balance in all things. The Holy Spirit will prompt us to do what is best for each of us when the time comes. Not my job to tell someone they have to sell their car or not wear jewlry. IS my job to teach, when the Spirit guides, the principles of outward show and adornement.

[Gregory Matthews]

O.K. Let us look at Christmas for a moment. To all who like to point to the alleged origin of a Christmas tree in paganism:

Have you ever seen a Chrismon Tree? I have. I have seen it in Protestant congregations in the U.S.

On a Chrismon tree, every decoration has a Christian meaning.

http://www.umcs.org/chrismons/patterns/index.htm

The above URL has examples of 50 Chrismon decorations that you can make to put on your Chrismon tree. Yes, congregations that have Chrismon trees usually make the decorations themselves. In the process of making those decorations they typically will give study to their meaning and the Biblical story of the birth of Christ.

Tell me, with a straight face, that such congregations are worshiping a pagan holyday?

Maybe some of you would like to sponsor a Chrismon tree in your congregation this year. If so, begin to plan now.

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

I'm not making replies to score points to win any rounds.

It was not my intention to suggest that you were.

My comment was simply me.

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

ANY concept? That's a little over the top. Gregory. Maybe SOME concepts. I would add that some concepts that some professing pagans and most Christians have about pagan gods are highly corrupted; and some of the ideas professing Christians (including SDAs) have about their own God are highly corrupted.

As I see the responses made to my comment, I see that I did not write well.

[JoeMo]

Quote:

As I see the responses made to my comment, I see that I did not write well.

No problem, Greg; and no criticism intended - just discussion. In general, I find you to be very well informed and articulate; and relatively reasonable in your posts. I say "relatively", simply because sometimes you don't agree with me, and I'm one of the most reasonable people I know - not to mention a legend in my own mind.

[Gregory Matthews]

I appreciate your comment. Sometimes I do not speak/write well. You pointed that out.

So, what did I mean? well, I have not yet decided how I can get myself out of that one. :)

[ClubV12]

When in doubt, stop digging?

...something the GOP might have considered recently... :)

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Originally Posted By: rudywoofs

oh. come. on.

Pagans eat. So do Christians, Jews, and Muslims.

Jews use candles in celebrations. So do witches. So do Christians. (not sure about Muslims)

Christians pray. So do Jews, and Muslims, and many Pagans.

"Thursday" is "Thor's Day" or "Donnerstag" (Thunder/Thor day) -- the days of the week are named for gods

etc. etc. etc.

The point is, if Christians do/say/abide by anything remotely related to any other beliefs or norms of any other societal or religious construct, does that mean Christians subscribe to the beliefs of those? Or that everyone else subscribes to the beliefs of Christians?

Hardly.

Great post. Ummm... but Thor is a God as well.

that's why I wrote it. :/

[phkrause]

Quote:

I'm not making replies to score points to win any rounds.

It was not my intention to suggest that you were.

My comment was simply me.

OK, no problem than, my bad.

[M. T. Cross]

Great post. Ummm... but Thor is a God as well.

[M. T. Cross]

Originally Posted By: Gregory Matthews

M. T. Cross scored the point on this round.

Oh and one more thing, I'm not making replies to score points to win any rounds. I believe MT knows me enough to know I'm trying to one up him or him one up me. He has his opinion and I have mine.

Indeed. Probably one of the last things I would consider you were trying to do. And you made a good point.

Though you got me thinking - again just in the spirit of discussion - not one upsmanship - possibly in parts of the world Saturn was always associated with the 7th day.

[Enabled]

Hope you don't mind if I launch a thought with your experience in the background ClubV12.

Having been a farmer for many years, I would reflect on the early and later rain which without the fallow time are a crop-less society of events. No matter the quality of the early rain, if it follows anything but the best efforts of fallow the crop will be that which other than the Master has sown, a field worthy of not the later rain but destruction.

Whether they be things of our past such as diamonds and cars, if they are not cast off as we follow the path they will in the end corrupt the fruit the Lord wishes to develop in the field of our lives. The smallest seeds are the hardest to eliminate, one may not cause you to stumble but to one less sure of foot they are a great danger. Too us they may mean nothing, but as alcohol to an ex-alcoholic they may prove to be deadly. The field must be made a safe haven for the tender as well as the strong among us, as a Shepherd prepares the field for the flock so Christ prepares the field of our hearts to consider all in our society.

[M. T. Cross]

This world has been so corrupted that paganism can be associated with just about everything that we do. It can be associated with Christmas and Easter. It can be associated with some of the religious rites of Israel. Hinduism and the birth of Hindu gods can be associated with every day of the standard year.

[ClubV12]

I appreciate those thoughts Enabled. I am learning SO many spiritual lessons from having a garden!

[Kevin H]

Just saw this on facebook, hope you find it interesting and useful:

Biblical Archaeology Review (published by the Biblical Archaeology Society) · 18' date='819 like this

October 16 at 3:59pm near Washington, DC · ..

HOW MANY? How many foreign gods are named in the Hebrew Bible?

Answer: At least 23.

The first commandment given to Moses on Mt. Sinai was that Israel have no other gods before Yahweh (Exodus 20:3). Indeed, only two verses later, Yahweh describes himself as a “jealous God” who demands unwavering love and commitment from his chosen people (20:5). Given that nearly two dozen different foreign deities are named in the Hebrew Bible, it is easy to see why the Biblical writers portrayed Yahweh as a jealous God: A host of other Near Eastern gods and goddesses of other peoples were around to compete with Yahweh. Among his most immediate rivals were the Aramean god Rimmon, the Canaanite deities Baal, Ashteroth and Asherah, the Philistine gods Dagon and Baal-Zebub, and Milcom and Chemosh, the respective gods of the Ammonites and Moabites of Transjordan.

As the kingdoms of Israel and Judah came under the influence of the Assyrian and then Babylonian empires in the eighth, seventh and sixth centuries B.C.E., an increasing number of Mesopotamian deities entered the land. The author of 2 Kings, for example, lists seven different gods (Adrammelech, Anammelech, Ashima, Nibhaz, Succoth-benoth, Tartak and Nergal) that were brought in by the Syrian and Mesopotamian deportees who were resettled in Samaria by the Assyrians after the Israelite kingdom was destroyed in 722 B.C.E. (2 Kings 17:30–31). Only decades before, the prophet Amos had chastised the northern kingdom for worshiping the idols of two other Mesopotamian deities, Sakkuth and Kaiwan (Amos 5:26).

Similarly, on the eve of the Babylonian destruction of Jerusalem in 586 B.C.E., the prophet Ezekiel has a vision in which the women of Judah weep for the Mesopotamian god Tammuz in the forecourt of the Temple (Ezekiel 8:14), while his contemporary Jeremiah finds Judahite families who make cakes for the “queen of heaven,” an appellation of the Babylonian goddess Ishtar. In different contexts, Jeremiah also identifies the chief Babylonian god Marduk (called both Bel and Merodach in Jeremiah 50:2), as well as the Egyptian deities Amon (46:25) and Apis (46:15).

[/quote']

[Kevin H]

Just saw this on facebook, hope you find it interesting and useful:

Biblical Archaeology Review (published by the Biblical Archaeology Society) · 18,819 like this

October 16 at 3:59pm near Washington, DC · ..

HOW MANY? How many foreign gods are named in the Hebrew Bible?

Answer: At least 23.

The first commandment given to Moses on Mt. Sinai was that Israel have no other gods before Yahweh (Exodus 20:3). Indeed, only two verses later, Yahweh describes himself as a “jealous God” who demands unwavering love and commitment from his chosen people (20:5). Given that nearly two dozen different foreign deities are named in the Hebrew Bible, it is easy to see why the Biblical writers portrayed Yahweh as a jealous God: A host of other Near Eastern gods and goddesses of other peoples were around to compete with Yahweh. Among his most immediate rivals were the Aramean god Rimmon, the Canaanite deities Baal, Ashteroth and Asherah, the Philistine gods Dagon and Baal-Zebub, and Milcom and Chemosh, the respective gods of the Ammonites and Moabites of Transjordan.

As the kingdoms of Israel and Judah came under the influence of the Assyrian and then Babylonian empires in the eighth, seventh and sixth centuries B.C.E., an increasing number of Mesopotamian deities entered the land. The author of 2 Kings, for example, lists seven different gods (Adrammelech, Anammelech, Ashima, Nibhaz, Succoth-benoth, Tartak and Nergal) that were brought in by the Syrian and Mesopotamian deportees who were resettled in Samaria by the Assyrians after the Israelite kingdom was destroyed in 722 B.C.E. (2 Kings 17:30–31). Only decades before, the prophet Amos had chastised the northern kingdom for worshiping the idols of two other Mesopotamian deities, Sakkuth and Kaiwan (Amos 5:26).

Similarly, on the eve of the Babylonian destruction of Jerusalem in 586 B.C.E., the prophet Ezekiel has a vision in which the women of Judah weep for the Mesopotamian god Tammuz in the forecourt of the Temple (Ezekiel 8:14), while his contemporary Jeremiah finds Judahite families who make cakes for the “queen of heaven,” an appellation of the Babylonian goddess Ishtar. In different contexts, Jeremiah also identifies the chief Babylonian god Marduk (called both Bel and Merodach in Jeremiah 50:2), as well as the Egyptian deities Amon (46:25) and Apis (46:15).

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

So Greg, other than your extremely offensive post about Pagan knowledge of God being corrupt, you are making some great points here.

Thank you.

I think that I once posted that I appreciate you posting in CA.

[olger]

REv184: Any concept that the pagans might have of God would be highly corrupted.

Yes indeed.

g

[Kevin H]

Hopefully you will find this useful!!!

http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/daily...came-christmas/

[CoAspen]

Quote:

Any concept that the pagans might have of God would be highly corrupted.

General question and not a reply.....How did 'pagans' arrive at that corrupted view?

[Windsor]

Quote:

Any concept that the pagans might have of God would be highly corrupted.

General question and not a reply.....How did 'pagans' arrive at that corrupted view?

They worship demons. In the Great Controversy view, we know that it has been Satan's determined effort to misrepresent God since the very moment Satan became corrupted. He deceived one third of the angels and he deceived Eve and now he has deceived most of humanity.