The True Gospel vs The False Gospel

[Green Cochoa]

As shown in many of my posts, the Bible is emphatic that all sins - past, present, future - were forgiven on the cross. There are those who cannot believe this truth. Let us give them the benefit of doubt.

If, on the cross, future sins were not forgiven, then, all persons born after the cross after sinning for the very first time,

1. are separate from God

2. are not attached to Christ

3. are spiritually dead

4. can do NOTHING good

5. cannot believe

6. cannot ask forgiveness

7. are totally helpless

So, what is the solution, so that they can be attached to Christ? Will anybody who believes future sins were not forgiven on the cross, give a Bible-based solution, if any?

Did I hear someone say, "The solution is he must first believe". But how can he do the act of believing while separate from Christ who said we can do NOTHING when we are not attached to Him? Such is the dilemma with the brand of gospel popularly preached today.

In contrast, the pure gospel has nothing of this dilemma. God attached us to His Son, forgave us all sins, made us alive, wrote His law in our hearts and mind, and will reward every man according to what each has done. Grace and obedience in a balanced presentation. Unlike the popular evangelical stance of "Faith Alone" resulting in disregard for the law of God. The pure gospel is simple, easy to understand, applies to all people regardless of religion, and topping it all, it is what the Bible teaches.

In Christ,

Samie

[Samie]

Bro Green;

Granting you are right that future sins are not forgiven, then are you ready with the Bible-based solution?

If, on the cross, future sins were not forgiven, then, all persons born after the cross after sinning for the very first time,

1. are separate from God

2. are not attached to Christ

3. are spiritually dead

4. can do NOTHING good

5. cannot believe

6. cannot ask forgiveness

7. are totally helpless

So, what is the solution, so that they can be attached to Christ? Will anybody who believes future sins were not forgiven on the cross, give a Bible-based solution, if any?

In Christ,

Samie

[Green Cochoa]

Bro Green;

Granting you are right that future sins are not forgiven, then are you ready with the Bible-based solution?

If, on the cross, future sins were not forgiven, then, all persons born after the cross after sinning for the very first time,

1. are separate from God

2. are not attached to Christ

3. are spiritually dead

4. can do NOTHING good

5. cannot believe

6. cannot ask forgiveness

7. are totally helpless

So, what is the solution, so that they can be attached to Christ? Will anybody who believes future sins were not forgiven on the cross, give a Bible-based solution, if any?

In Christ,

Samie

Samie,

The texts I quoted tell you what happens. Christ's blood atoned for all sins, but it will not cause all sins to be forgiven. Unconfessed sins are not forgiven, for example. We are forgiven as we repent, confess, and forgive others. The atoning blood of Christ provided for God's authority, under His law, to forgive all sins, but it did not cause all sins to be forgiven. Many sins will never be forgiven by virtue of the fact that their forgiveness was not requested on the part of the sinner. If we do not accept the forgiveness, God will not force it upon us.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Samie

Bro Green;

Granting you are right that future sins are not forgiven, then are you ready with the Bible-based solution?

If, on the cross, future sins were not forgiven, then, all persons born after the cross after sinning for the very first time,

1. are separate from God

2. are not attached to Christ

3. are spiritually dead

4. can do NOTHING good

5. cannot believe

6. cannot ask forgiveness

7. are totally helpless

So, what is the solution, so that they can be attached to Christ? Will anybody who believes future sins were not forgiven on the cross, give a Bible-based solution, if any?

In Christ,

Samie

Samie,

The texts I quoted tell you what happens. Christ's blood atoned for all sins, but it will not cause all sins to be forgiven. Unconfessed sins are not forgiven, for example. We are forgiven as we repent, confess, and forgive others. The atoning blood of Christ provided for God's authority, under His law, to forgive all sins, but it did not cause all sins to be forgiven. Many sins will never be forgiven by virtue of the fact that their forgiveness was not requested on the part of the sinner. If we do not accept the forgiveness, God will not force it upon us.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

How can one repent & confess while still separate from Christ and dead in sin? Christ has said we can do NOTHING while separate from Him (John 15:5).

[Green Cochoa]

How can one repent & confess while still separate from Christ and dead in sin? Christ has said we can do NOTHING while separate from Him (John 15:5).

Yes. But, obviously, any sinner does something, right? We eat, we breathe, we work, we play, we live; whether we are righteous or sinning. So I think we must be careful to ascertain the true intent of Christ's words based on their context. Jesus was speaking of "bearing fruit." We cannot bear any of the fruits of the Spirit before having received the Spirit, and we receive this upon confession and repentance--forsaking our sins to live in Christ and He in us.

We can most certainly repent before we bear the fruits of the Spirit. We can confess our sins, and then begin living a new life in grace, enjoying the peace that comes from knowing our sins our forgiven. Until then, as long as we are living in sin, we cannot have peace. Isaiah 48:22 and 57:21 make this clear. The wicked can have no peace.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

[Samie]

A person commits sin now. That sin was not among those forgiven on the cross, as you said. To be forgiven, that sin had to be confessed and repented of. But that sin already separated the person from Christ the moment he committed it (Isa 59:2). Separate from Christ, that person can do NOTHING (John 15:5). So how can he do the act of confessing while still separate from Christ?

If he can confess, as is our experience now, then this is proof the sin recently committed was among those forgiven on the cross that is why we are still attached to Him despite any sin committed now. Instead of forgiveness, the sin committed is not imputed against us (2 Cor 5:18, 19). This is justification. Christ is continually justifying us because he was raised for our justification (Rom 4:25).

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Samie

How can one repent & confess while still separate from Christ and dead in sin? Christ has said we can do NOTHING while separate from Him (John 15:5).

Yes. But, obviously, any sinner does something, right? We eat, we breathe, we work, we play, we live; whether we are righteous or sinning. So I think we must be careful to ascertain the true intent of Christ's words based on their context. Jesus was speaking of "bearing fruit." We cannot bear any of the fruits of the Spirit before having received the Spirit, and we receive this upon confession and repentance--forsaking our sins to live in Christ and He in us.

We can most certainly repent before we bear the fruits of the Spirit. We can confess our sins, and then begin living a new life in grace, enjoying the peace that comes from knowing our sins our forgiven. Until then, as long as we are living in sin, we cannot have peace. Isaiah 48:22 and 57:21 make this clear. The wicked can have no peace.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Bro Green;

We can be alive physically but dead spiritually (1 Tim 5:6). Let's dwell on the spiritual realm.

Before a sinner comes to Christ, his sins not having been forgiven on the cross, as you believe, make him spiritually dead (Eph 2:1) and separate from Christ. Separate from Christ he cannot bear any fruit of the Spirit. Among the fruit of the Spirit is faith (Gal 5:22). Fsith is needed to believe (Heb 11:6). To be attached to Christ, this sinner must first believe, an act he cannot do without faith, a fruit he cannot bear unless attached to Christ, a condition he cannot attain unless he first believes. Do you have a solution?

In Christ,

Samie

[Samie]

Bro Jackson,

Your reply never addressed the dilemma the brand of gospel popularly preached today creates: That a person while separate from Christ can do SOMETHING (believe, repent, confess, etc.), whereas Christ said that man can do NOTHING while separate from Him.

Believing, repenting, confessing are spiritual acts possible only when a person is attached to Christ. None of these acts can be done when one is separate from Christ because he is still spiritually dead. As the physically dead can not do any physical act, in like manner, the spiritually dead cannot do any spiritual act.

The fact that we can now do all these spiritual acts is proof enough we had been attached to Christ. We believe, not to be attached, but because we had been attached. Otherwise, the dilemma revives. And being attached, there is not a trace of sin that separates us from Christ. All these had been forgiven on the cross.

In Christ,

Samie

[Gerr]

Forgiveness for past, present, and future sins was declared at the Cross, but like any other of God's gifts, it is NOT ours until we claim and accept it. Hostilities ceased and a peace treaty was declared in 1945 between Japan and the USA. However, many Japanese soldiers kept on fighting. A Lt. Onoda did not cease fighting in the Philippines until the early 1970's. The same thing happened after Appomatox. Many rebs kept on fighting in spite of the surrender and the general amnesty that was signed.

[Green Cochoa]

A person commits sin now. That sin was not among those forgiven on the cross, as you said. To be forgiven, that sin had to be confessed and repented of. But that sin already separated the person from Christ the moment he committed it (Isa 59:2). Separate from Christ, that person can do NOTHING (John 15:5). So how can he do the act of confessing while still separate from Christ?

If he can confess, as is our experience now, then this is proof the sin recently committed was among those forgiven on the cross that is why we are still attached to Him despite any sin committed now. Instead of forgiveness, the sin committed is not imputed against us (2 Cor 5:18, 19). This is justification. Christ is continually justifying us because he was raised for our justification (Rom 4:25).

[Samie]

What was done on the cross was not just an offer, it is fact. What the Immortal has done for mortals, can NEVER by any mortal be undone.

Scriptures emphatically declare God has fashioned us all - Jews and Gentiles - into the body of His Son. This is fact. We are now in Christ's body, Christians and non-Christians alike. God has made us the body of His Son. Hence, we are to live as Christ lived, walk as He walked. The body is to be where the Head is. This is the message of reconciliation, a message the Christian world seemed to have forgotten.

Instead, Christian preachers teach that for a non-Christian to be attached to the body of Christ, he must do something first: he must believe. Yet at the same time teach that this is all grace. Is grace to be worked for? Dilemma after dilemma; asking the unconscious to go to the doctor so that he can be revived. Requiring the dead in sin to do good so that he can be attached to Christ.

This is where we need faith. Faith to believe that we are all now in the body of Christ. Faith to believe that God through Christ has forgiven us from all sins - past, present, future - on the cross. Faith to believe that sins currently committed are not imputed against us. Faith to believe that we can be overcomers because we are not burdened with sin as we fight the good fight of faith against all evil, being attached to Him Who is our Strength. Faith to believe that as overcomers, our names will remain in the book of life where it was written since the foundation of the world.

In Christ,

Samie

[Gerr]

What was done on the cross was not just an offer, it is fact. What the Immortal has done for mortals, can NEVER by any mortal be undone.

Scriptures emphatically declare God has fashioned us all - Jews and Gentiles - into the body of His Son. This is fact. We are now in Christ's body, Christians and non-Christians alike. God has made us the body of His Son. Hence, we are to live as Christ lived, walk as He walked. The body is to be where the Head is. This is the message of reconciliation, a message the Christian world seemed to have forgotten.

Samie

Do you believe that anyone is/can be lost? How?

[joeb]

Quote:

The Contract Ratified.—[John 20:16, 17 quoted.] Jesus refused to receive the homage of His people until He knew that His sacrifice had been accepted by the Father, and until He had received the assurance from God Himself that His atonement for the sins of His people had been full and ample, that through His blood they might gain eternal life. Jesus immediately ascended to heaven and presented Himself before the throne of God, showing the marks of shame and cruelty upon His brow, His hands and feet. But he refused to receive the coronet of glory, and the royal robe, and He also refused the adoration of the angels as He had refused the homage of Mary, until the Father signified that His offering was accepted.

He also had a request to prefer concerning His chosen ones upon earth. He wished to have the relation clearly defined that His redeemed should hereafter sustain to heaven, and to His Father. His church must be justified and accepted before He could accept heavenly honor. He declared it to be His will that where He was, there His church should be; if He was to have glory, His people must share it with Him. They who suffer with Him on earth must finally reign with Him in His kingdom. In the most explicit manner Christ pleaded for His church, identifying His interest with theirs, and advocating, with love and constancy stronger than death, their rights and titles gained through Him.

God’s answer to this appeal goes forth in the proclamation: “Let all the angels of God worship him.” Every angelic commander obeys the royal mandate, and Worthy, worthy is the Lamb that was slain; and that lives again a triumphant conqueror! echoes and re-echoes through all heaven. The innumerable company of angels prostrate themselves before the Redeemer. The request of Christ is granted; the church is justified through Him, its representative and head. Here the Father ratifies the contract with His Son, that He will be reconciled to repentant and obedient men, and take them into divine favor through the merits of Christ. Christ guarantees that He will make a man “more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.” All power in heaven and on earth is now given to the Prince of life; yet He does not for a moment forget His poor disciples in a sinful world, but prepares to return to them, that He may impart to them His power and glory. Thus did the Redeemer of mankind, by the sacrifice of Himself, connect earth with heaven, and finite man with the infinite God (The Spirit of Prophecy 3:202, 203).

Now if everything was complete at the cross, why did God ratify His contract with His Son after the cross? Notice also that only "repentant and obedient" people are reconciled to God through Christ.

[joeb]

More on being reconciled with God. Both the how and the when.

Quote:

Man, who has defaced the image of God in his soul by a corrupt life, cannot, by mere human effort, effect a radical change in himself. He must accept the provisions of the gospel; he must be reconciled to God through obedience to His law and faith in Jesus Christ. His life from thenceforth must be governed by a new principle. Through repentance, faith, and good works he may perfect a righteous character, and claim, through the merits of Christ, the privileges of the sons of God. The principles of divine truth, received and cherished in the heart, will carry us to a height of moral excellence that we had not deemed it possible for us to reach. “And it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when He shall appear, we shall be like Him; for we shall see Him as He is. And every man that hath this hope in Him purifieth himself, even as He is pure.” Testimones vol 4 p. 294

[joeb]

Here is Paul saying the same thing Ellen White did in my previous post. He is writing to a church with deep spiritual problems and asking them, in Christ's stead, to be reconciled to God. This shows repentance and obedience are a must in being reconciled to God.

Quote:

II Corinthians 5: 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Samie

What was done on the cross was not just an offer, it is fact. What the Immortal has done for mortals, can NEVER by any mortal be undone.

Scriptures emphatically declare God has fashioned us all - Jews and Gentiles - into the body of His Son. This is fact. We are now in Christ's body, Christians and non-Christians alike. God has made us the body of His Son. Hence, we are to live as Christ lived, walk as He walked. The body is to be where the Head is. This is the message of reconciliation, a message the Christian world seemed to have forgotten.

Samie

Do you believe that anyone is/can be lost? How?

Yes, anyone can be lost now depending on whether he chooses to be an overcomer or not. Attached to the body of Him Who is our Strength, we are all empowered to be able to overcome all evil. We can use that power either to overcome evil or to do evil. The choice is ours.

If we commit sin, as we often do, it does not mean we cannot become overcomers any more. While alive there's hope. God waits for us throughout our lifetime to become overcomers, and makes it easy for us to overcome evil by not counting against us the sin committed (2 Cor 5:18,19). Having been forgiven on the cross (Col 2:13), we are being continually justified by Christ who was raised for our justification (Rom 4:25), and ever liveth as our High Priest to make intercession for us (Heb 7:25), being the propitiation for sin committed (1 John 2:2). In fact, God remembers that sin NO MORE (Heb 10:17). And since sin cannot have dominion against us anymore (Rom 6:14), we are unburdened with sin as we continue to fight the good fight of faith (1 Tim 6:12; 2 Tim 6:7). When a person dies, judgment is meted (Heb 9:27). If a person is not an overcomer, he has no one else to blame. It was his choice. His name will be deleted from the book of life (Exo. 32:33; Rev 3:5), removed from the registry of heaven, dismembered from the body of Christ.

When Christ comes again to reward every man according to what each has done (Matt 16:27; Rev 22:12), the overcomers will be rewarded with life eternal and be with our Lord forevermore (John 14:3). All others will be made to suffer the wrath of God and finally thrown into the lake of fire (Rom 2:5-8; Rev 20:15; 21:27).

In Christ,

Samie

[Samie]

...

Now if everything was complete at the cross, why did God ratify His contract with His Son after the cross?

[Green Cochoa]

Samie,

It appears as if your Bible version has been leading you on. You need to "upgrade" to the older version which has fewer "bugs" in it.

Change "covenant" to "testament" in your verses above and I might agree with them. Otherwise, your Bible is telling you that the covenant God made with Abraham, with Noah, or with Jacob was not valid until Jesus died. The interesting thing, however, is that God made a covenant with Abraham that his descendants would inherit Canaan, and this was fulfilled well before Jesus died. It seems to me that the covenant was valid.

There are other examples I could think of, such as the covenant the people made with God at Sinai. Was that only to be valid after the people died?

The words "covenant" and "testament" are intimately linked, but they are still quite distinct and non-interchangeable, just as "mercy" and "justice" are intimately linked but are distinct from each other.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

[Samie]

Bro Green;

That was the NASB. Here's the KJV 1611.

Hebrews 9:15-17 15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. 16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. 17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

"testament" from Greek "diatheke"

In the KJV, "diatheke" is translated into "testament" 13 times (Matt 26:28; Mark 14:24; Luke 22:20; 1 Cor 11:25; 2 Cor 3:6, 14; Heb 7:22; 9:15ff, 20; Rev 11:19) and into "covenant" 20 times (Luke 1:72; Acts 3:25; 7:8; Rom 11:27; Gal 3:15, 17; Heb 8:6ff, 13; 9:1, 4; 10:16, 29; 12:24; 13:20).

[Samie]

Here is Paul saying the same thing Ellen White did in my previous post. He is writing to a church with deep spiritual problems and asking them, in Christ's stead, to be reconciled to God. This shows repentance and obedience are a must in being reconciled to God.

Quote:

II Corinthians 5: 19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

[Gerr]

The means for forgiveness and atonement for ALL sins, past, present, and future sins were provided at the Cross, but no one is saved until it is accepted. Peter's message AFTER the Cross was still, "Repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of your sins...." Ac 2:38. And in KJV 1900 | ýAc 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out,

[Samie]

The means for forgiveness and atonement for ALL sins, past, present, and future sins were provided at the Cross, but no one is saved until it is accepted. Peter's message AFTER the Cross was still, "Repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of your sins...." Ac 2:38. And in KJV 1900 | ýAc 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out,

Bro. Gerry;

The apostle Peter was once in the same position you are now in. Like you, he also considered those who are not baptized as unclean because of sin. But God taught him otherwise. And He learned his lesson fast.

Remember his vision of unclean animals? He considered those animals unclean, just like he considered the unrepentant, the unbaptized as unclean. But what did God tell him? "What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common [or unclean]" (Acts 10:15). And you know the rest of the story. Here is Peter's take of the vision: "God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean." Acts 10:28. Why? Because God through Christ had washed them clean from sin through the blood of His Son (Rev 1:5).

In Christ,

Samie

[Green Cochoa]

Samie,

It seems you are saying repentance is not required anymore. Is that true? If so....

Are you forgetting that repentance was called for by more than just Peter? Jesus, our example, was baptized unto repentance--not for Himself, for He had never sinned. He did it only as an example to all who should afterward seek Him.

Then there is Paul, a servant of the Lord, who speaks of repentance. And others.

(See Mark 1:4; Mark 2:17; Mark 6:12; Luke 3:7-8; Luke 5:32; Acts 17:30; Romans 2:4; 2 Corinthians 7:10; 2 Peter 3:9.)

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

The means for forgiveness and atonement for ALL sins, past, present, and future sins were provided at the Cross, but no one is saved until it is accepted. Peter's message AFTER the Cross was still, "Repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of your sins...." Ac 2:38. And in KJV 1900 | ýAc 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out,

Bro. Gerry;

The apostle Peter was once in the same position you are now in. Like you, he also considered those who are not baptized as unclean because of sin. But God taught him otherwise. And He learned his lesson fast.

Remember his vision of unclean animals? He considered those animals unclean, just like he considered the unrepentant, the unbaptized as unclean. But what did God tell him? "What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common [or unclean]" (Acts 10:15). And you know the rest of the story. Here is Peter's take of the vision: "God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean." Acts 10:28. Why? Because God through Christ had washed them clean from sin through the blood of His Son (Rev 1:5).

In Christ,

Samie

Here's what Peter had to say long AFTER his vision:

ESV | ‎2 Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

Paul: ESV | ‎Ro 2:4 Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance?

Jesus, who should know after His death & resurrection:

ESV | ‎Re 2:16 Therefore repent. If not, I will come to you soon and war against them with the sword of my mouth.

ESV | ‎Re 3:19 Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent.

[Samie]

Samie,

It seems you are saying repentance is not required anymore. Is that true? If so....

Are you forgetting that repentance was called for by more than just Peter? Jesus, our example, was baptized unto repentance--not for Himself, for He had never sinned. He did it only as an example to all who should afterward seek Him.

Then there is Paul, a servant of the Lord, who speaks of repentance. And others.

(See Mark 1:4; Mark 2:17; Mark 6:12; Luke 3:7-8; Luke 5:32; Acts 17:30; Romans 2:4; 2 Corinthians 7:10; 2 Peter 3:9.)

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

Bro Green;

What I had been saying all along is that repentance is NOT a requirement to be attached to the body of Christ. It is needed, indispensable, of paramount importance, absolutely necessary AFTER we have been attached. Repentance which is turning away from sin, is the essence of overcoming. And only overcomers will not be blotted out from the book of life.

The brand of gospel popularly preached today places a requirement to be attached to the body of Christ. The true gospel does not and cannot place a requirement, knowing that no matter what requirement you ask from the unconscious to perform so that he can be revived, the unconscious is not able to perform. And separate from Christ, we are not only spiritually unconscious, we are spiritually DEAD.

The brand of gospel popularly preached today is the gospel preached by Peter before he learned his lesson. Preachers have yet to learn the lesson God taught Peter.

In Christ,

Samie