New evidence_________

[joeb]

Quote:

He uses consequences, not to punish, but to teach us things we can learn in no other way.

This would apply to all those who are presently accepting of the Word, "Nevertheless, not my will but Thine be done."" Punishment is a fitting Word for those who choose to be God's enemies.

"He who is not with Me [definitely on My side] is against Me, and he who does not [definitely] gather with Me and for My side scatters." Matthew 12:30 AMP

"Woe to the world because of offenses! For offenses must come, but woe to that man by whom the offense comes!"Matthew 18:7 NKJV

God cares!

I don't believe that is so. God is trying to teach all of humanity, His enemies and His friends, about Himself and about how bad sin really is. He loves His enemies just as much as He loves His friends. If He didn't, neither you nor I would be His friend today.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

He loves His enemies just as much as He loves His friends.

He may love them just as much but a curse by any other name is still a curse. What would you believe He was trying to teach Judas when he hanged himself?

“The Lord your God will change your heart and the hearts of all your descendants, so that you will love him with all your heart and soul and so you may live! The Lord your God will inflict all these curses on your enemies and on those who hate and persecute you. Then you will again obey the Lord and keep all his commands that I am giving you today.Deuteronomy 30:6-8 NLT

God cares!

[ClubV12]

"His restraining power will be in a measure removed from the agencies of evil, so that a train of circumstances will arise which will punish sin with sin."

Patriarchs and Prophets 728

Perhaps we should inquire, WHY, does God remove His protection? Since He is no respector of persons, we know this applies to everybody, all the time, no exceptions. WHY does He do this?

It's part of His law, He has no choice. IF He had miraculously spared Moses when Moses had refused a "known duty" (unconfessed, unforgiven sin) the devil would have pointed out Gods law is unfair and arbitrary. It only applies to people He likes. Thank God He knows where the balance is between letting us all die immediately and giving us time to learn from our consequences! Mercy is also a part of His law, allowing Him to withdraw "just enough" of His protection to satisfy the law demanding death for sin while upholding His law of mercy.

The laws of God express the character of God, small wonder that we are drawn to Him as we begin to see the beauty in His law as a reflection of His character.

[joeb]

Quote:

He loves His enemies just as much as He loves His friends.

He may love them just as much but a curse by any other name is still a curse. What would you believe He was trying to teach Judas when he hanged himself?

“The Lord your God will change your heart and the hearts of all your descendants, so that you will love him with all your heart and soul and so you may live! The Lord your God will inflict all these curses on your enemies and on those who hate and persecute you. Then you will again obey the Lord and keep all his commands that I am giving you today.Deuteronomy 30:6-8 NLT

God cares!

[ClubV12]

You know, I was thinking about a comment Gail made recently, how God leads her so gently along the path.

Well,,, some of us,,, me, have to get pretty beat up and bloodied, "gentle" only applies when you realize your still alive, bruised, bloodied, but He didn't let you die. You realize how merciful He was toward you. This is why David loved Gods law, he KNEW he deserved death and God was being SO "gentle" with him. I know how that works...

[LifeHiscost]

"The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:"2 Peter 2:9 KJV

" The bed is too short on which to stretch out,

And the blanket is too small to wrap oneself in.

For the Lord will rise up as at Mount Perazim,

He will be stirred up as in the valley of Gibeon,

To do His task, His unusual task,

And to work His work, His extraordinary work.

And now do not carry on as scoffers,

Or your fetters will be made stronger;

For I have heard from the Lord God of hosts

Of decisive destruction on all the earth."

Isaiah 28:20-22 NASB

God cares!

[ClubV12]

To the law and to the testimony must be the proof for any claim.

Ron Wyatt has stated the ten commandments from the ark will be displayed to the world following the Sunday law. Because an ANGEL told him so! Good angel or evil angel?

Here is what Ellen White says,

"When the judgment shall sit, and the books shall be opened, and every man shall be judged according to the things written in the books, then the tables of stone, hidden by God until that day, will be presented before the world as the standard of righteousness. Then men and women will see that the prerequisite of their salvation is obedience to the perfect law of God. None will find excuse for sin. By the righteous principles of that law, men will receive their sentence of life or of death."

Selected Messages, Book 1 pg 225

What judgement is this and when? This phase of the judgment concerns all the WICKED who ever lived. Seeing with their own eyes the tables of stone. WHEN are the wicked raised to face their judgment and sentence? A 1,000 years AFTER Christ returns!!! Until THEN, the ten commandments will remain hidden.

The only possible conclusion is that Ron Wyatt is NOT speaking in harmony to the law and the testimony. Now I don't doubt that he talked to some angels, that he saw what he thought was the ark and the ten commandments. NO WAY were those heavenly angels, NO WAY. Ron was duped by evil spirits appearing as angels of lights and he truly believed. He also left the Church and many of his followers have left the Church.

Wyatt saw, talked to, was counseled by evil angels appearing as heavenly messengers. It's the only rational scenario.

[Gibs]

ClubV12,

It seems strange to me since R Wyatt knew of this writing in the Apocrypha that he would make such a statement. The writing of what Jeremy wrote when he hid the ark in a cave as instructed of God.

2 Maccabees 2:7 Which when Jeremy perceived, he blamed them, saying, As for that place, it shall be unknown until the time God gather His people again together, and receive them unto mercy.

Men had followed Jeremy to try to find where he hid it and they never did.

No evidence yet has been uncovered to prove Ron's findings were false.

Was Ron a deceiver? I don't as yet condemn him, his findings almost cost him his life as there is a terrible element out there to keep such hidden and discredited.

We will all know one day and I find the day cannot be many years future.

Hang in there ye all, we know ole Satan has gained almost universal control but his terrible rule and hold is soon to be broken.

Ron was a Sabbath keeper but not an SDA.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

I don't think Ron was an intentional deceiver, I believe he was fooled, by evil angels. One can only speculate how he allowed himself to be in that position. It's a classic example of being sincere doesn't gaurentee anything.

DID Ron know about the above quote, the judgment, the display of the ten commandments? Certainly he did, no question. The "dispute" and the "excuse" offered concerns the interpretation of the quote. Some see this quote as a different aspect of the judgment than I do. Some place it in 1844, some say it is yet to come but predates the close of probation.

Heres the thing: It's not a terribly complicated quote. All the wicked are present at this phase of the judgment. I don't see how anyone can argue otherwise, but they do, go figure. There is only ONE time when ALL the wicked will be present and that follows their resurrection in mass. The end of the 1,000 year review of the books. The law is displayed because that is what they are judged by. Sentence is pronounced. UNTIL this phase of the judgment the ten commandments will be hidden from men. Which means, they will NOT be discovered.

One more point. The tables of stone are very sacred. People couldn't even LOOK at them, let alone touch them. The High Priest only saw them once a year. Ron says he picked them up, looked at them, etc. In bible times that was instant death. I don't believe those tables of stone have lost any of their sacredness over the years. His story, as sincere as he may be, simply doesn't line up with the law and the testimony.

Is it convincing story? I believe evil angels are involved, it's going to be very, very convincing indeed! Plenty of "evidence". This is the tip of the iceberg when it comes to "powerful delusions" so accurate, so real, so convincing that if possible, even the very elect will be deceived, as Ron was.

I would stop even reviewing the evidence, shut it down, just drop the mouse and back away from these Wyatt stories. Your playing with fire here.

[ClubV12]

Some of Rons followers say he will be resurrected and he will play a significant role in the display of the tables of stone.

When Satans evil angel portray Ron, with the fake tables of stone, those who believe now will buy that deception it hook, line and sinker. In spite of their knowledge of the spirit world and knowing Satan will appear to raise the dead. Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if we even see apostles "raised from the dead" and working for the "beast". Who is going to deny John the Baptist, in the flesh! Or Peter on the 6 oclock news.

[Gail]

You know, I was thinking about a comment Gail made recently, how God leads her so gently along the path.

Well,,, some of us,,, me, have to get pretty beat up and bloodied, "gentle" only applies when you realize your still alive, bruised, bloodied, but He didn't let you die. You realize how merciful He was toward you. This is why David loved Gods law, he KNEW he deserved death and God was being SO "gentle" with him. I know how that works...

LOL Club you have to stop being such a tough nut to crack!!

[Gibs]

The story of Ron W. getting to the tables of stone in the Ark never came from Ron.

The furthest he got was to see the large flat rock placed a few inches above the Ark mysteriously split that the blood coming down the crevice and dripping off the ceiling of the cave and so falling on the mercy seat. All he saw was the mercy seat.

The place was fslling in and he had to get out and so went up above and found the place of the hole dug for the cross and the earthquake had made a split in the rock over the cave.

He tried to get back but the fall in had closed it up tight. The space from the pictures he got in was small. They have been working to excavate off the top but so much is above it that it is not near completed and there is an element of men that do not want it to be and so the work goes slow. These men also almost took Ron's life.

I do have the disc of all that Ron said of this and the pictures he took of it and a clear picture of the dried blood drops on the ceiling. I did have it all on VHS tapes that it originally came out on. I may have given them to someone who still had a working VCR.

I do believe Ron's statement of this has credibility if for no other reason of the powerful attempts to discredit and change his testimony, this done by certain powerful men in this world. The question is, who are these that wanted to take Ron's life so bad?

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

I believe that once you have entered onto this ground it will be extremely difficult for "beliebers" to remove themselves from this delusion. I have repeatedly found this to be the case with virtually ALL delusions.

Once you place your feet on the enemies ground, out of mere curiosity, a simple quick look and thinking you can handle it, it will be OK, the trap is set.

This is EXACTLY what happened to Eve. She recognized the danger in wandering from her husbands side. She concluded that she was intelligent enough, strong enough, to recognize evil and to deal with it. She had no intention of being deceived. So, filled with just enough pride in her own ability, she took another step, until at last the trap was sprung.

What is the point of all this "fanatastic", wonderful, intellectually stimulating, amazing discoveries? What is the point of all these marvelous scientific proofs of what we SHOULD already know ARE truth?

It's a trap, a bushwhack, a setup, don't take another step. This is dangerous ground and those who have ventured forth, lingered, considered carefully the evidence and have bought into it, will find themselves trapped in delusion. Indeed, many who venture forth are ALREADY trapped in some kind of delusion and this is just another one to reinforce it.

Truth will be mingled with error, as the very best lies always contain an element of truth. Seek for the pure, the holy truth, not some mystical mixture.

Run,,, save yourself before it's to late.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

Then men and women will see that the prerequisite of their salvation is obedience to the perfect law of God. None will find excuse for sin. By the righteous principles of that law, men will receive their sentence of life or of death."

This recognition of obedience to the Law of God as a prerequisite

for salvation is found in the life of Jesus Christ only. Only as we receive both His imputed righteousness as well as His imparted righteousness have we hope for eternal salvation.

"But we are all like an unclean thing, And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags; We all fade as a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, Have taken us away."

Isaiah 64:6 NKJV

"....for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure." Philippians 2:13 NASB

God cares!

[Gibs]

I would suggest on this question that before anyone condemns it to get the story from Ron himself and not hear hearsay.

You can get his for sure testimony from - www.wyattmuseum.com

The truth can stand investigation and invites it. They invite your investigation I have found. Get the whole story from the "horses" mouth so to speak.

Then you can draw a conclusion seeing the other side. Be honest and weigh it up.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Windsor]

We studied this both in Israel in December-January 1983-84 and at the seminary; full of problems. It has Moses crossing from Sinai into Saudi Arabia and was a favorite of atheist who wanted to say that the whole Mt. Sinai idea was just myths from volcanos in that part of Saudi.

The place where the Bible says that they crossed has some cities and geographical mentions where we find the cities and descriptions. Wyatt has to cling to the ideas that there are other unfound locations by the same name where he wants it to split. The place where we find the evidence is at a place where the sea would split from time to time until the Suez canal was built. The last time it split was 1927 and several people died when the water came back over.

Wyatt did not like the idea of the natural and supernatural working together. He wanted a more specular location and wanted a miracle of the water not destroying biodegradable material and sediment covering and ocean currents having moved around destroying the biodegradable material.

Moller, Wyatt and the Exodus Movie all have Moses cross into Saudi Arabia because THAT is where Mount Sinai is. It's where Paul says it is in Galatians 6:25 - "Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia". The modern Sinai Peninsula got the name "Sinai" because there's where the so-called traditional Mount Sinai is located; the one without a shred of archaeological support.

Quoting from wikipedia here:

Josephus, however, declared that Mt. Sinai was 'the highest of the mountains' in the region of 'the city of Madiane' -- or Maydan, in NW Arabia, across the 'Gulf of Aqaba.'

Exactly where Moller and Wyatt believe it is.

[ClubV12]

Windsor, why is it relevant? Of what eternal value is that I know where the Children crossed the sea? Or which mountain Moses climbed? Or that Wyatt found the ark? Will this increase my faith in Gods word? If my faith is so weak I need a sign, then give me a sign! Those who demand "proof" would not believe though one rose from the dead. Displaying the ten commandments to the world so CNN can broadcast on their evening show will not convince those who already believe. It will lead to a deeper delusion for those already inclined and leave thinking, reasonable men to conclude Christians are carpet baggers at best.

Look at the fanatastical claims made by his followers, off shoots of the Adventist Church, as Wyatt was. What is the fruit I should consider as evidence that God is in this?

Wyatt said he talked to and was directed by "angels". Of this I have no doubt, evil angels. I have no doubt Wyatt deeply believed, sincerely believed, a lie.

Wyatt removed his membership from the Church. He's not just a "Sabbath Keeper", he's an apostate from the Adventist Church. As are many of his followers.

[Gibs]

Wyatt did find the proper crossing to the proper Mt. Sinai. How is because he read his Bible,

Ga 4:25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

There the top of the mountain was glazed from the Presence of the LORD and the pictures Wyatt took of it shows it.

The crossing Wyatt found was the shallowest across the sea and extended completely across it.

He found artifacts of Chariots and more and had clear pictures of them.

His evidence of this is very credible.

Ex 14:21 ¶ And Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the LORD caused the sea to go back by a strong east wind all that night, and made the sea dry land, and the waters were divided.

Ex 14:22 And the children of Israel went into the midst of the sea upon the dry ground: and the waters were a wall unto them on their right hand, and on their left.

Ex 14:23 And the Egyptians pursued, and went in after them to the midst of the sea, even all Pharaoh's horses, his chariots, and his horsemen.Ex 14:23 And the Egyptians pursued, and went in after them to the midst of the sea, even all Pharaoh's horses, his chariots, and his horsemen.

Ex 14:24 And it came to pass, that in the morning watch the LORD looked unto the host of the Egyptians through the pillar of fire and of the cloud, and troubled the host of the Egyptians,

Ex 14:25 And took off their chariot wheels, that they drave them heavily: so that the Egyptians said, Let us flee from the face of Israel; for the LORD fighteth for them against the Egyptians.

Ex 14:26 And the LORD said unto Moses, Stretch out thine hand over the sea, that the waters may come again upon the Egyptians, upon their chariots, and upon their horsemen.

Ex 14:27 And Moses stretched forth his hand over the sea, and the sea returned to his strength when the morning appeared; and the Egyptians fled against it; and the LORD overthrew the Egyptians in the midst of the sea.

Ex 14:28 And the waters returned, and covered the chariots, and the horsemen, and all the host of Pharaoh that came into the sea after them; there remained not so much as one of them.

Notice from the verse Ex 14:22, the water was still very deep here as a wall of it was on their right and left!

Made believers out of them Egyptians I'd say.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

Gibs says,

"His evidence of this is very credible."

An opinion shared by those who believe. An opinion scoffed at, ridiculed and dimissed by a HUGE host of scientists, archeologists, biblical scholars (and men and women of average normal intelligence). Wthin and from without the Seventh-day Adventist Church. Including some who actually worked with him.

But heres the real kicker for me. Wyatt had TWO basic messages. One for the "world" and one for the "believers". The message to the believers is essentially that he was a prophet. Like Ellen White, he never claimed to be a prophet, but the evidence, his testimony leaves little doubt thats what he seems himself as. And his followers, the bulk of whom are evangelicals, see him as.

Consider the evidence. By his own words, he has been guided by and talked directly with angels. He has talked to Jesus Christ in person, not in vision, but in person. His claims lead any reasonable person to conclude, he must be a prophet.

If you ask me to believe him, I would ask you to believe the testimonies of those who worked with him and heard him speak personally. If I cannot believe his faithful followers, how I am supposed to believe his many and varied discovery claims.

Like finding the graves and headstones for Noah and his wife...

Is he a prophet? Of course not, by the law and the testimony he falls dramatically short.

[Gibs]

ClubV12,

Bring to us the source of him stating he talked with angels. I've been through all his materials and never came across anything like that.

Was he moved of God? He may well have been. Yes there is plenty out there to discredit him and there is a very good reason for that.

Some don't want certain facts substantiated! Powerful ones!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

Gibs says,

"Some don't want certain facts substantiated! Powerful ones!"

Well that sounds mysterious, fits nicely with the life of Wyatt in general. One of mystery, intrigue and reads like a good spy novel. Just enough truth, vivid speculation, some sustainable facts that leave you wondering, "Who IS this guy, really?" What high level contacts does he really have? Good stuff! Who doesn't want to be in the "inner circle" knowing about powerful facts that powerful men are trying to keep under wraps? Man does THAT appeal to the pride inside.

Of what value is this knowledge? None that I can see, it only leads to controversy, confusion and is distracting from the work. Who do you think the author of THAT would be?

Those who have, like Wyatt, removed themselves from Gods visible Church on earth, the object of His supreme affection would be in a particularly difficult position to reason this out. As one delusion inevitably leads to another.

This is not some discussion I'm trying to "win" or gain ground with. I feel compelled that this warning needs to put out there to, if possible, point some back to the true path.

[Gregory Matthews]

Gibs said:

Quote:

His evidence of this is very credible.

Yes, I know that Gibs was talking about a specific claim of Ron Wyatt.

I will say that Ron's evidence was generally not credible.

I am reminded of his claim to have discovered the living shed blood of the Lord Jesus Christ, as made on his website. What he discovered was Brownian Movement, also called Brownian Motion.

[ClubV12]

We could be here for days going over each and every claim with a fine tooth comb, and nothing would change as to who believes what.

No, I think we need to look at the principles involved. Of what benefit to the Church, to the truth is ANY of the claims? What is the fruit? Where does this lead? If this is of God, how do we know?

Because the claims are so outrageous in many cases, so I will not dismiss the outrageous claims of those who bear eye witness accounts! Those who claim to have spoken to, worked with, attended various meetings with Wyatt in person and yet have opposing views. Whose lieing to who? Would they lie to sell more books, CD's, videos? Some will! Whom shall we believe and more importantly, why should I even CARE who's lieing to who? What value is in it, other than, the fascination one gets from reading a good suspense thriller or fiction book. Something Sister White cautions us not to do.

[Gibs]

He sent a sample of the dried blood from the ceiling and had it tested and it was proven to be of higher order than of a regular man. You see the Blood of God was shed.

Note, remember, the Father determines the blood of the baby.

Ac 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

The purchase of the redeemed is by His Blood. That purchasing is still being applied in the Heavenly.

For what it is worth to some, it is evidence that Calvary really happened, the ark is a truth, the red sea crossing was for real, Sodom and Gomorrah were real and the glazed blackened top of Mt. Sinai was visited by the burning Presence of God.

Don't you realize in order to find the red sea crossing one would need to know which Mt. Sinai to look for the way to from where the travel began.

Yes, Ron was a good Bible student plus a lot of savvy to put things together and who is to say God didn't lead him.

There is a very strong reason for all the discrediting and you all should realize from where. Ron barely lived through the attempt on his life and was severely maimed. He never had total recovery.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gregory Matthews]

Club: There is value in what you have said about Ron Wyatt. I think there is more. But, your comments do have value.