Seven Trumpets

[12tribes]

I read in another topic that some are saying the seven trumpets are yet to sound. Sanctuary language in the seven trumpets show that is not true because the seven trumpets begin in the holy place and end in the most holy.

[ClubV12]

Where did you come up with that idea? It doesn't square with the spirit of prophecy.

"Revelation 6 and 7 are full of meaning. Terrible are the judgments of God revealed. The seven angels stood before God to receive their commission. To them were given seven trumpets. The Lord was going forth to punish the inhabitants of the earth. . . .

When the plagues of God shall come upon the earth hail will fall upon the wicked about the weight of a talent." Maranatha 284.6

The above quote is only applicable for those that accept Ellen White as a divinely inspired messenger. For those who do not, you are free to theorize, conjecture, speculate and offer whatever interpretation seems right to a man. Good luck with that... :)

[ClubV12]

Trumpet #1, begins after the breaking of the seventh seal of the book that no man was found worthy to open.

First trumpet, first plague:

Burns up a third of the trees and all the grass. Hail, fire, mixed with blood.

Second trumpet,,, and so forth and so on until #7. At which time those who reviled, cursed and put Jesus to death are resurrected to see Him coming in the clouds of glory.

[12tribes]

I accept Ellen White as a prophet but not your interpretation. If you are going to have the 7 trumpets as the plagues then you have to also include the time prophecies within the trumpets.

The 7th trumpet begins the judgment which was 1844.

[ClubV12]

Are we talking about the same trumpets?

I think I see the problem, you must be referring to the seven seals, which do contain the history of the earth.

The sevent trumpets associated with seven bowls poured out on the earth are the seven last plagues. Which begin during or at the time of the seventh seal.

SOME people do say the seventh seal was broken in 1844. Personally I don't believe that, I believe we are in the transition period from the sixth to the seventh seal. This is the way James White understood it as well.

[12tribes]

Correct me if I am wrong but you teach the 7 trumpets begin after the 7 seals have ended?

[ClubV12]

Not exactly but thats close. The seven seals and the seven trumpets associated with the plauges are two different things. The seven trumpets/plagues begin at the time of the breaking of the seventh seal.

Thus the times of the seventh seal INCLUDE the times of the seven plagues/trumpets.

[12tribes]

Then that would make the setting for the trumpets in the most holy place not the holy place.

*[[Rev 8:2-3]] KJV* %v 2% And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets. %v 3% And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

These verses have the setting for the trumpets in the holy place not the most holy.

[ClubV12]

Partially correct, as I see it. The seven seals begin with the arrival of Jesus in Rev chapter 5. In chapter four we have the Father in the HOLY PLACE holding a scroll/book, which no man can open. Jesus arrives, with a host of angels, takes the scroll/book and breaks the first seal. Four horseman, earths history, all that begins to unfold. When we get to the 6th seal, 1844, the scene moves from the Holy to the Most Holy for the completion of the sixth possible overlap, transistion to the seventh.

I leave room for the sixth and seventh seal as some people see it in slightly different ways and I'm OK with that.

[12tribes]

What do you do with the time prophecies of Revelation 9 which are part of the trumpets?

[ClubV12]

Lets review what we can agree on! The seven seals are seven periods of time in earths history, Ellen White is clear on this much. Associated with seven angels, but NOT the seven plagues we find in Rev 14 and 15.

I see the problem, Rev 8 and 9 are an enlarge and clairify of the history of the seven seals as they are broken. These chapters also deal with the first two "woes", which have now passed.

[12tribes]

The way I see it, not just me but many SDA pastors is the 7 churches, seals and trumpets all cover the same time period with different info.

The all begin in the holy place and end in the most holy.

[ClubV12]

Yes, I see that, they begin in the Holy, end in the Most Holy. Seven seals and seven angels and three "woes", not to be confused, as I think I have inadvertently done with the seven trumpets and seven angels of Rev 15.

Rev 15

"I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues—last, because with them God’s wrath is completed."

THIS is where the seven angels "co-exist", the transition from the sixth to seventh seal and the introduction of a NEW set of seven angels with seven plagues.

[12tribes]

*[[Rev 11:18]] KJV* And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

This is the 7th trumpet and looks like 1844 when it began to sound. If this is yet to sound then the dead are yet to be judged.

[ClubV12]

Yes many associate the seventh seal with 1844. I'm not sure myself as to the exact timing of the seventh seal. I TEND to place it at the close of probation and the beginning of the seven plagues.

But open to ideas on that timing.

[12tribes]

I put the 7th seal at the return of Christ but the 7th trumpet from 1844

[ClubV12]

Well thats an interesting take on it! Worthy of consideration.

If I'm not mistaken what you have done there is make room for an overlap or transitional state between the sixth and seventh. Something I've always considered but have not been firm on.

I see the seventh seal as beginning NO LATER than the beginning of the seven plagues.

[12tribes]

I put it after the plagues during the return of Christ. The 7th seal says there will be silence in heaven for half an hour. Half an hour in prophetic time is 7.5 days. Ellen White says we will be travelling to heaven for 7 days.

[ClubV12]

Hmmm, I see your sanctified imagination reaching a reasonable conclusion there. Can't say I agree with it, but it's reasonable to some degree. I see Uriah Smith doing something similiar when he notes, as if we were just sitting around talking one afternoon, that each plague will last about two months. He is unclear as to how he reached THAT conclusion!

Length of time of the LITTLE time of trouble? I make it at least a year, because we will have to grow our own food. Therefore, one growing season minimum. I suspect it will actually be several years. When JACOBS time of trouble starts, no one will be growing anything, we will be fleeing to the mountains to hide. Ravens or angels will have to provide us food and water.

[Gibs]

OK, we know the trumpets are plagues as this is stated after the sixth trumpet,

Re 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

And then we read this,

Re 15:1 ¶ And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

Now to bring up another thought point,

Who is this Angel in these verses? And at what time does He perform this? Not until He has entered the most Holy ministering in our behalf, if not what is the case?

Re 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

Re 8:4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

Re 8:5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.

The Father's own dear Angel, His One and Only Begotten Beloved Son!

Who only ministers at the Golden Altar offering incense, who alone could fill it with Fire of the Golden Altar before the Throne?

Then He gives the signal,

Re 8:5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.

Re 8:6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

Re 8:7 ¶ The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

The first four trumpets become progressively stronger and the last three are woes each becoming progressively stronger!

We just can know the time is at hand, in other words, close.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

Gibs I believe you are making the classic mistake of confusing the two bands of seven angels. One group deals with the history of this earth as the seven seals are broken and earths history is unfolded to the Revelator.

The other group doesn't come on the scene until about Rev 14 and 15. This last group of seven are the plague angels. One must be careful not to intermix Rev 4 through 8-9 with Rev 14-15.

The thing with Revelation is that the time frames do not exactly follow in order of events. It jumps around. As opposed to Daniel where the time prophecies and times of Daniel in general follow in exacting order. First this in history, then this, and on through.

Revelation time frames can be all over the place!

[Gibs]

Your time frame ClubV12 for the trumpets of Rev. 8: and 9: is set here in these verses as I explained earlier,

The time frame is after 1844, This Angel, is our High Priest!

Re 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

Re 8:4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

Re 8:5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.

Re 8:6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

Re 8:7 ¶ The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

CAN'T be after 1844 Gibs, look at the description of where the angel is, in the FIRST compartment, the Holy Place. THIS is where the scroll that could not be opened by any man, was opened by Jesus.

Which brings up an interesting question. WHEN did this even happen? We have the Father, in the Holy Place, holding a scroll. Jesus is not there, where is He? Then in chapter five He shows up with a vast amount of angels. He takes the scroll and opens it. I believe this event takes place immediately following His ascension after forty days on earth.

From Ellen White we KNOW FOR SURE this scroll is a detailed account of earths history. What follows in the next chapters is an explanation of the seals as they are removed. Follow the sequence of timing as it relates to the seals being broken and the history of the earth.

Revelation 8:3 takes place in the HOLY PLACE, well before 1844.

We are now living in the time of the sixth seal. This is what our pioneers taught and believed.

The seven angels with seven trumpets in Rev 8 are NOT the seven angels we find in Rev 15.

[12tribes]

It is impossible for the 7 trumpets to be the 7 last plagues.

Revelation 9:5 KJV

(5) And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

This is a time prophecy within the 5th trumpet. If the trumpets are the plagues then there would be still time prophecy in the future but, we know that there is no more prophetic time after 1844.

So all the trumpets with time prophecies happened before 1844.

[12tribes]

Revelation 11:18 KJV

(18) And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

This is the 7th trumpet, and it says the dead will be judged. The judgement as we know began 1844, so the 7th trumpet began to sound 1844. If the 7th trumpet is still future then the judgement is still future, The investigative judgement ends before the plagues fall.