Seven Trumpets

[12tribes]

*[[Rev 9:5]] KJV* And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.

Gibs what do you do with the time prophecy in this verse? There are other time prophecies as well in the trumpets. You seem to be not wanting to answer about this, I have asked you a few times now.

[Gibs]

No problem now that I know what you are referring to. It isn't a year for a day prophecy, "a time prophecy", but is a literal time rendering and you can be sure it will come to pass as the prophecy will not fail.

The longest reaching "Time" prophecy was the 2300 day one and any since are in literal time!

There is more besides the one given in Rev 9:5 too but most don't heed it.

I've made it very clear when the time frame is of the trumpets are and you or none can refute it. Try as you may the scriptures stand solid and EGW with it,

The power of the Holy Ghost must be upon us, and the Captain of the Lord's host will stand at the head of the angels of heaven to direct the battle. Solemn events before us are yet to transpire. Trumpet after trumpet is to be sounded, vial after vial poured out one after another upon the inhabitants of the earth. {1888 762.1}

Scenes of stupendous interest are right upon us, and these things will be sure indications of the presence of Him who has directed in every aggressive movement, [the One] who has accompanied the march of His cause through all the ages, and who has graciously pledged Himself to be with His people in all their conflicts to the end of the world. He will vindicate His truth. He will cause it to triumph. He is ready to supply His faithful ones with motives and power of purpose, inspiring them with hope and courage and valor in increased activity as the time is at hand. {1888 762.2}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[12tribes]

In your own mind it cant be refuted But, the evidence is there it has been fulfilled.

[Gibs]

I think 12tribes you are sure young enough to see the true trumpets fall unless you meet an untimely death and that is not likely, just do drive carefully and defensively.

I am 82 plus a few months and am in bad health, I may not, but I do believe I will and have a reason to believe the LORD will maybe see me through to the end.

Not worried in the least one way or the other as I trust in Him fully and implicitly.

You see the case EGW gives us here is so true today,

The more frequently a definite time is set for the second advent, and the more widely it is taught, the better it suits the purposes of Satan. After the time has passed, he excites ridicule and contempt of its advocates, and thus casts reproach upon the true time movement of 1843 and 1844. Those who persist in this error will at last fix upon a date too far in the future for the coming of Christ. Thus they will be led to rest in a false security, and many will not be undeceived until it is too late. {4SP 290.2}

All the church structures are putting it too far away, here not 10 yrs. ago it was preached it would not be for at least 40 yrs. in the nearest SDA church.

Am 3:7 Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

You see by reading the signs of the times we can know of the closeness,

Mt 16:3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?

Yes Yah. does have an appointed time that no man knows and in His time He let's it known,

"Soon we heard the voice of God like many waters, which gave us the day and hour of Jesus' coming. The living saints, 144,000 in number, knew and understood the voice, while the wicked thought it was thunder and an earthquake. When God spoke the time, He poured upon us the Holy Ghost, and our faces began to light up and shine with the glory of God, as Moses' did when he came down from Mount Sinai. {CET 58.1}

We will see much before that but from now on out the movements will be rapid.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

Sixth trumpet ended Aug 11, 1840. Ellen White confirmed that.

[12tribes]

Quote:

In the year 1840 another remarkable fulfillment of prophecy excited widespread interest. Two years before, Josiah Litch, one of the leading ministers preaching the second advent, published an exposition of Revelation 9, predicting the fall of the Ottoman Empire. According to his calculations, this power was to be overthrown “in A.D. 1840, sometime in the month of August;” and only a few days previous to its accomplishment he wrote: “Allowing the first period, 150 years, to have been exactly fulfilled before Deacozes ascended the throne by permission of the Turks, and that the 391 years, fifteen days, commenced at the close of the first period, it will end on the 11th of August, 1840, when the Ottoman power in Constantinople may be expected to be broken. And this, I believe, will be found to be the case.”—Josiah Litch, in Signs of the Times, and Expositor of Prophecy, August 1, 1840. Ellen White, Great Controversy 334.4

[Gibs]

No way on the face of this earth was this or any trumpet fulfilled yet,

Re 9:13 ¶ And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,

Re 9:14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.

Re 9:15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.

Re 9:16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.

Re 9:17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.

When were a third of mankind slayed? Never!

When was there ever 200,000,000 army of horsemen, never, that is a 200 million man army and only China to day could come up with that.

Verse Re 9:17 describes modern warfare that is to come, China today most likely is the super power of the world. Long ago from radio Beijing they announced, Chia is rising and America is falling.

And notice EGW did not always agree on the trumpets, 1888 she saw it this way.

The power of the Holy Ghost must be upon us, and the Captain of the Lord's host will stand at the head of the angels of heaven to direct the battle. Solemn events before us are yet to transpire. Trumpet after trumpet is to be sounded, vial after vial poured out one after another upon the inhabitants of the earth. {1888 762.1}

Scenes of stupendous interest are right upon us, and these things will be sure indications of the presence of Him who has directed in every aggressive movement, [the One] who has accompanied the march of His cause through all the ages, and who has graciously pledged Himself to be with His people in all their conflicts to the end of the world. He will vindicate His truth. He will cause it to triumph. He is ready to supply His faithful ones with motives and power of purpose, inspiring them with hope and courage and valor in increased activity as the time is at hand. {1888 762.2}

Investigation of Doctrine.--There is no excuse for anyone in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without an error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people, is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. {CW 35.2}

Besides, Here is the cinch of the time frame of the trumpets!,

Re 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

Our high Priest, Jesus Christ is ministering at the Golden Altar before the Throne.

This then will be past 1844, and close to the last of His Ministry there!

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

"Trumpet after trumpet is to be sounded..."

Perhaps you are not aware this is the ONLY statement she ever made about trump after trump? Dangerous thing to place your entire doctrinal position on a single quote or a single verse while ignoring statements, or verses, that offer an apparently opposing view.

Like the opposing view that the sixth trumpet ended in 1840. How does one reconcile this, and many other, potential conflicting statements in the SOP? Like the bible, there is hardly an end to that "apparent" discrepancies. And yet, as she is without a shadow of doubt, an inspired messenger of God she WILL be in perfect harmony with the word. And with her own words! The problem then, cannot lay with the word or the prophetess, it must lay with us. WE are unable to rectify these apparent differences.

As for me, I DO see perfect harmony in the "trump after trump" statement AND the statement where she VERIFIES the sixth trumpet ended in 1840.

If you don't see the harmony, you must conclude:

1. Sister White is not inspired, she is a false prophet.

OR...

2. Your doctrine is incorrect.

I'll take #2 for eternal life, Gibs.

[Gibs]

It is clear to me Club, she saw this thing different than first believed by those around her, she disagreed much with U. Smith and many but she was not able to get them to see light is ever increasing.

We have evidence of scripture this last view in 1888 is the correct one,

This verse and more show for certainity the time frame of it!

Re 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

I could place more but biblical evidence is not received, only pre taught interpretations are.

Jesus Christ is at the Throne of grace in Heaven from that verse and I am satisfied.

Go on in doubt is your choice.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

Why should you be concerned how Ellen White viewed it EVER, at any time? You refute the year for a day principle, you ignore any of her counsel that doesn't agree with your doctrine. What difference does it make to you, a non-Seventh-day Adventist WHAT the prophetess says, thinks or does?

None of your concern Gibs, you have your own private interpretation of doctrine. Your mixing of what Ellen White says, when it agrees with you, and ignoring her when it doesn't, is Babylon. Confusion, false doctrine.

Heres what I suggest: Leave Ellen White out of it, she has nothing to do with your doctrine, your views, your position. Nor does the Seventh-day Adventist Church. So get real Gibs, your an offshoot of the Church, nothing more, nothing less.

[12tribes]

So Gibs you are going to reject the clear word of the prophet Ellen White on Revelation 9? Also Revelation 8:3 is ministry in the holy place not the most holy. It is before 1844 when Jesus began His ministry in the Most holy. The fact that is is before the throne does not mean it is in the most holy. Don't you know that Daniel 7 says God's throne has wheels? Why does it have wheels? So it can move, in 1844 God's throne moved from the holy to the most holy.

[Gibs]

You will need to come up with some scripture for that assumption that God rolls His Throne around. I know not of any.

Also I find 1888 was the last yr. of her testimony of the trumpets and her statement at that time is rather hard to misconstrue to the view you hold.

"The power of the Holy Ghost must be upon us, and the Captain of the Lord's host will stand at the head of the angels of heaven to direct the battle. Solemn events before us are yet to transpire. Trumpet after trumpet is to be sounded, vial after vial poured out one after another upon the inhabitants of the earth. {1888 762.1}

That is as clear as crystal to me.

Besides, the sixth trumpet, a 200 million man army is seen and that has not come close being true yet, but it will, the prophecy will be fulfilled to the last point given.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

No way she is talking about the seven trumpets/seals association in the above quote. A figment of your imagination Gibs.

[Gibs]

That quote, Club needs no imagination, but only a fifth grade level of understanding.

It cannot be twisted no matter how clever one can try to change the meaning!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

In that case, you will need specific evidence that ties her ONE and ONLY comment about trump after trump applying DIRECTLY to the trumpets of Revelation.

I can wait... you got nothing!

[12tribes]

You will need to come up with some scripture for that assumption that God rolls His Throne around. I know not of any.

Daniel 7:9 KJV

(9) I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

This text shows that God's throne has wheels. If you believe that God's throne is in a fixed position in the most holy place then you can't believe in a two apartment sanctuary.

Revelation 4:2 KJV

(2) And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.

Revelation 4 is a picture of the holy place yet God's throne is seen. If you think God's throne is in a fixed position in the most holy place then you can't believe in a literal two apartment sanctuary in heaven.

[12tribes]

Daniel 7:9 KJV

(9) I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

This as we know is referring to the most holy place and thrones cast down means they were set up. First thrones were set up.

Quote:

I saw the Father rise from the throne, and in a flaming chariot go into the holy of holies within the veil, and sit down. Ellen White, Early Writings, p.55.1

[12tribes]

Also I find 1888 was the last yr. of her testimony of the trumpets and her statement at that time is rather hard to misconstrue to the view you hold.

"The power of the Holy Ghost must be upon us, and the Captain of the Lord's host will stand at the head of the angels of heaven to direct the battle. Solemn events before us are yet to transpire. Trumpet after trumpet is to be sounded, vial after vial poured out one after another upon the inhabitants of the earth. {1888 762.1}

That is as clear as crystal to me.

Besides, the sixth trumpet, a 200 million man army is seen and that has not come close being true yet, but it will, the prophecy will be fulfilled to the last point given.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

Do you think that the only time trumpets sound is during the plagues?

[12tribes]

Also you cannot base a whole doctrine on one small quote.

[Gibs]

12tribes, if you been reading my posts you will see that I have given several to substantiate the fact.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[JoeMo]

It seems like almost everyone contributing to this thread, even though there is some disagreement on the details, pretty much uses EGW to back up their assertions (e.g., application of day-for-year principle, 1844 being an eternal turning point). I don't want to interrupt your discourse; but their are other equally rational ways to look at seals and trumpets that lead some to believe that most events prophesied in Revelation have fulfillment in the future; events of the past were simply applications of those prophecies. I'm not saying EGW was wrong; I'm just saying that there are other, equally rational views of the events associated with and the chronology of the 7 seals/trumpets/bowls. Would you have an issue with me posting a summary of the futurist view; if for no other reason, as an education to those who have only studies the view as presented by EGW and SDA's? I would only do so if you all wouldn't interpret the post as infidel heresy. I like to keep an open mind on all reasonable interpretations of Daniel/Revelation; even though I personally prefer one over the other.

[Gibs]

Yes JoeMo, it is true many proclaimed fulfillments of prophecies are but applications and not the fulfillment as every point of the prophecy is not adequately met.

Some are not even good applications and are we not to receive greater and increasing light, so why should we not see some in a clearer light.

Many prophecies are not opened to us until it is time and the see of them God keeps His hand over.

"Those who cling to old customs and hoary errors have lost sight of the fact that light is ever increasing upon the path of all who follow Christ; truth is constantly unfolding to the people of God. We must be continually advancing if we are following our Leader. It is when we walk in the light that shines upon us, obeying the truth that is open to our understanding, that we receive greater light. We cannot be excusable in accepting only the light which our fathers had one hundred years ago. If our God-fearing fathers had seen what we see, and heard what we hear, they would have accepted the light, and walked in it. If we desire to imitate their faithfulness, we must receive the truths open to us, as they received those presented to them; we must do as they would have done, had they lived in our day. {HS 197.1}

Just before his crucifixion, Jesus prayed for his disciples, “Sanctify them through Thy truth; thy word is truth.” It is the duty of every one to search the Scriptures for himself. We cannot accept the assertions of men as infallible. To those who oppose and denounce our faith we say, Show us from the Bible that we are in error. God's word is to judge us at the last day, and we want to know what saith the Scripture. We are regarded with jealousy and bitterness because we will not accept as evidence the assertions of men and the testimony of the Fathers; but we cannot purchase peace and unity by sacrificing the truth. The conflict may be long and painful, but at any cost we must hold fast the word of God. “The Bible, and the Bible only,” must be our watchword. {HS 197.2}

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

I'll go with Sister White on the seals/trumpets, it is clear they are NOT future. As to posting what some futurists believe, what ever, I have little interest in studying false doctrine and prefer to remain fixed on what we KNOW is truth. The prophet has spoken on this, none need be confused.

[JoeMo]

Hey Gibs, thanks for the feedback.

Club, how is it clear (from scripture only - not EGW) that these events are NOT future? Not that it matters - I think we can agree that then end times are very near, no matter which way we choose to interpret prophecy.

[ClubV12]

Josiah Litch NAILED the ending of the sixth trumpet as occuring in 1840. He didn't even know, never heard of Ellen White. He, like Miller, used the bible and bible only. LATER, Ellen White confirmed that Litch was correct.

We are now in the time frame of the sixth seal.

Your rejection of Ellen White as a person qualified to speak on issues concerning the bible are noted. Will you also throw out any concordance or commentary books? Will you dismiss the counsel of any biblical commentary by anybody?

If so, why are you asking these questions here? Go to any one of hundreds of Christian web sites that do not use Ellen White as a consultant on bible prophecies and ask them. I hear Baptists are pretty good with that whole rapture thing. Maybe they meet your qaulifications for commentary, if Ellen White, author of fifty books, doesn't.

Whether you regard her a prophet, or not, is beside the point. She is VERY qaulified to speak on the subject of the scriptures. Or, maybe you don't care because she's a woman? Well fine, stick with those evangelicals then, or maybe some mega church pastor. OR, perhaps you prefer to trust Gibs for your commentary? Good luck with that.