Seven Trumpets

[Gibs]

You don't read very well,

Re 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

He is at the Golden Altar before the Throne of God in the Holiest! The Sanctuary is being cleansed and at some point with the living. The Throne is not in the first apartment.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world

[12tribes]

I do read but the problem is your interpretation. The altar of incense is in the holy place so the is during the daily service in the first apartment. They offered incense like this during the ministry of the first.

Answer the point about the time prophecies, they cannot be just ignored as if they are not there. That will show you the time frame of the altar of incense.

[12tribes]

Also Revelation 10 as we know has been fulfilled, that is during the 7 trumpets, if you are going to put the trumpets in the future then Revelation 10 has to be in the future.

[Gibs]

This is the Golden Altar before the Throne, a great difference!

No Rev. 10 has not been fulfilled, it is a fill in of explanations as Rev. 17 is.

You could begin to have a case that the trumpets have happened if you can show where even the least fearful of them all has happened, the first one!

Re 8:7 ¶ The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

When you must show of fact that a third of the trees was burnt up and ALL the green grass.

It just has never has come to pass yet!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

12Tribes says,

"It is impossible for the 7 trumpets to be the 7 last plagues."

Depends on which trumpets you are talking about! TWO groups of seven. One associated with the earths history as revealed in the seven sealed scroll. The other seven trumpets are the group of seven angels (also with trumpets) who bring the seven last plagues. AFTER the close of probation.

The FATHERS throne was indeed in the HOLY PLACE before 1844. This is where Jesus ministered for a couple thousand years before moving to the Most Holy place.

How do you know a third of the trees HASN'T happened yet? Not everyone believes that.

First trumpet is the Visigoths, ancient history. Who burned up so much of the earth we have vast deserts now! Rev 8:7 been fulfilled.

[Gibs]

I only stated that the trumpets beginning in Rev 8 were the first seven plagues and gave the scripture readings for it.

Re 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

And then, the seven last

Re 15:1 ¶ And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

Now who only can this Angel be at the Golden Altar before the Throne? This can only be a Special Angel.

Jg 13:21 But the angel of the LORD did no more appear to Manoah and to his wife. Then Manoah knew that he was an angel of the LORD.

Jg 13:22 And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God.

Palmoni. Jg 13:18; Isa 9:6; Mt 11:27; Lu 10:22; Joh 1:18

That certain saint, Dan.8:13, the wonderful numberer, Palmoni.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[12tribes]

Rome was divided into 3 parts. Rome of the west, Rome of the east and Rome of Africa, that explains the third part. Interesting that the 3 of the powers mentioned in the first four trumpets is 3 powers uprooted by the little horn.

[12tribes]

12Tribes says,

"It is impossible for the 7 trumpets to be the 7 last plagues."

Depends on which trumpets you are talking about! TWO groups of seven. One associated with the earths history as revealed in the seven sealed scroll. The other seven trumpets are the group of seven angels (also with trumpets) who bring the seven last plagues. AFTER the close of probation.

The FATHERS throne was indeed in the HOLY PLACE before 1844. This is where Jesus ministered for a couple thousand years before moving to the Most Holy place.

How do you know a third of the trees HASN'T happened yet? Not everyone believes that.

First trumpet is the Visigoths, ancient history. Who burned up so much of the earth we have vast deserts now! Rev 8:7 been fulfilled.

If you are referring to the 7 last plagues in Rev 16 as 7 trumpets then please referr to them as the 7 last plagues as the Bible says.

[12tribes]

Gibs please give me an answer to the time prophecies in the 7 trumpets. They cannot be ignored.

[Gibs]

The trumpets are not yr. for a day prophecy.

No timing for when they start except for the casting of the censer of fire of the Golden Altar cast into the earth.

Then soon the first angel begins his Trumpet!

Re 8:5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.

Re 8:6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

Re 8:7 ¶ The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

Any more questions? The answers are all there in the Word.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

12Tribes, your right, the seven last plauges/viles/bowls, depending on what bible you use, are best referred to as the seven plagues.

Now that I got THAT straight...

Ellen White tells us the seven trumpets are this earths history since the beginning. Whereas the seven last plagues are this earths history terminating.

Like Gibs, many people mix up the two groups of "seven". Since we KNOW without a doubt from the prophet that the scroll is earths HISTORY, then it follows the FIRST trumpet was every early in earths history. This is what the James White and the other pioneers taught.

It makes perfect biblical sense AND is 100% compatible with the prophetess' statements as well. Forced to choose, it's a no brainer, I'll go with Ellen White everytime over Gibs or any other mans private interpretation.

Because,,, the answers are all in the word.

[Gibs]

You must show back yon that that a third of the trees were burnt up and all the green grass.

You must also show that Jesus the Father's Angel gave the signal to start the trumpets back yon too!

Well you can't, the time frame is set for it in these scriptures,

Remember this is at the Golden Altar before the Throne!

Re 8:2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

Re 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

Re 8:4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

Re 8:5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.

Re 8:6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

Re 8:7 ¶ The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[12tribes]

12Tribes, your right, the seven last plauges/viles/bowls, depending on what bible you use, are best referred to as the seven plagues.

Now that I got THAT straight...

Ellen White tells us the seven trumpets are this earths history since the beginning. Whereas the seven last plagues are this earths history terminating.

Like Gibs, many people mix up the two groups of "seven". Since we KNOW without a doubt from the prophet that the scroll is earths HISTORY, then it follows the FIRST trumpet was every early in earths history. This is what the James White and the other pioneers taught.

It makes perfect biblical sense AND is 100% compatible with the prophetess' statements as well. Forced to choose, it's a no brainer, I'll go with Ellen White everytime over Gibs or any other mans private interpretation.

Because,,, the answers are all in the word.

[12tribes]

You must show back yon that that a third of the trees were burnt up and all the green grass.

You must also show that Jesus the Father's Angel gave the signal to start the trumpets back yon too!

Well you can't, the time frame is set for it in these scriptures,

Remember this is at the Golden Altar before the Throne!

Re 8:2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

Re 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

Re 8:4 And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

Re 8:5 And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.

Re 8:6 And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

Re 8:7 ¶ The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

It has been answered, read my previous post. Later will post info showing it. Rome was divided into 3 parts. You have not answered about the time prophecies in the trumpets.

[ClubV12]

The Visigoths, who fulfilled the first trumpet, deliberately destroyed the vegetation in Western Europe, so much so that it resulted in the formation of desert areas.

THIS was the fulfillment of Revelation 8:7. This is a very interesting study in itself and worthy of a separate thread.

As we move through the trumpets we come to Rev 9:4

“And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads."

WHO had the seal in their foreheads back in history? Sabbath keepers! When the "war" and the "destruction" was taking place, there was ONE group who were not injured, attacked or killed during all this devastation, Sabbath keepers! Thats a historic FACT! This is tied to the rise of Islam in the seventh century. They made war against EVERYBODY! But they didn't hurt in any way Sabbath keepers, who were, as it were, "sealed"!

[Gibs]

Sorry that is not a fulfillment of the prophecy, in a fulfillment all points are met and besides you got six more to show were in all points.

Sorry my friend, never has that been come to pass!

[ClubV12]

I just gave you a taste of the fulfillment of the first trumpet, there is much more. Litch gave you a precise detailed fulfillment of the sixth trumpet and yet, you reject him as well.

Pearls, casting,,, thats all you get Gibs, because you reject the light already given.

[ClubV12]

I was curious so I Googled the seven trumpets to see what the "world" has to say. There seems to be two primary trains of thought. One is future (Gibs for instance) and the other is historic. Ellen White was historic.

What surprised me is that MOST web sites put them future. And I have yet to see even ONE web site (but I'm sure it's out there) that correctly reports on the sequence and events in history. One, apparently Adventist site, has the seven seals lasting no more than 1260 years, which blows Ellen White out of the water.

I never imagined there was such confusion over the seals/trumpets. The more I study them the more I see how absolutely crucial they are to understanding future events. Even though they are history passed. Except for number seven of course, the time in which we live right now.

[12tribes]

Sorry that is not a fulfillment of the prophecy, in a fulfillment all points are met and besides you got six more to show were in all points.

Sorry my friend, never has that been come to pass!

Gibs all you are doing is telling us we are wrong and offer no Biblical proof. Therefore it is just your opinion verses the Bible. Also you have not answered about how you fit the time prophecies of the trumpets into the end times since you put the trumpets in the future. Look at Revelation 9, there are two time prophecies.

[12tribes]

The Visigoths, who fulfilled the first trumpet, deliberately destroyed the vegetation in Western Europe, so much so that it resulted in the formation of desert areas.

THIS was the fulfillment of Revelation 8:7. This is a very interesting study in itself and worthy of a separate thread.

As we move through the trumpets we come to Rev 9:4

“And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads."

WHO had the seal in their foreheads back in history? Sabbath keepers! When the "war" and the "destruction" was taking place, there was ONE group who were not injured, attacked or killed during all this devastation, Sabbath keepers! Thats a historic FACT! This is tied to the rise of Islam in the seventh century. They made war against EVERYBODY! But they didn't hurt in any way Sabbath keepers, who were, as it were, "sealed"!

Amen, that is true.

[ClubV12]

12Tribes, I've only studied the seals/trumpets a couple of months or so but am really excited how it is slowly coming together and I'm in filling in some details. Dumping some assumptions, sharpening some points. The TWO threads going on that cover this stuff have been a tremendous help and really got me digging again.

Your comments about the seals and trumpets being independant, but related, finally sunk in. I see what you mean now. Going back over the details heres what I make of the 6th trumpet, which is also the second "woe", but NOT the sixth seal. Whoa! As predicted and confirmed by Ellen White, Turkish powers fell on August 11, 1840. Second woe also ended at this time. Trumpets and seals are independant of each other. Another layer of complexity to the prophecies!

I put the sixth SEAL begining in 1755. The Lisbon earthquake, dark day (1780), papal persecution ending, stars fall, all within the time frame of the 6th seal. WHEN does it END? Not clear, we could STILL be in it! It seems to be tied to the healing of the deadly wound, but when that wound was/is healed varies depending on how you see it. SOME say it was healed in the time of Ellen White! Some say, not yet, or set dates. I'm working on a solution for the sixth seal.

Seventh TRUMPET in 1844 began, NOT the seventh seal. I THINK the seventh seal is the beginning of the plagues.

Not separating trumpets from seals is why I kept thinking there is some kind of "overlap" between events. No overlap, different events signaled in different ways!

And Gibs NONE of the above has anything to do with the seven angels with seven vials that bring seven last plagues during the time of the seventh seal. Whoa, say that seven times without falling down.

[ClubV12]

Silence for about a half hour...

Around thirty literal minutes. Why? Because NO MORE TIME PROPHECIES after 1844. This must be literal time. What happens during this time? I have no idea, I just submit it is literal time in minutes.

[Gibs]

By EGW,

"The power of the Holy Ghost must be upon us, and the Captain of the Lord's host will stand at the head of the angels of heaven to direct the battle. Solemn events before us are yet to transpire. Trumpet after trumpet is to be sounded, vial after vial poured out one after another upon the inhabitants of the earth. Scenes of stupendous interest are right upon us (Letter 112, 1890)". {7BC 982.7}

First the trumpets fall with mercy then the vials will fall with the wrath of God without mercy!

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

This thread is one of the trumpets of warning she says is to be sounded. Warning after warning must be given. When the vials are poured out, it will be to late, probation has closed.

[Gibs]

There is a cinch to the timing of the trumpets and is found in Rev 11:

This is the time of God's last call by His Two witnesses,

Re 11:14 ¶ The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.

Note! that it is the sixth trumpet angel gives the second woe!

Re 9:12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.

Re 9:13 ¶ And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,

So we have the time frame of the trumpets laid solid.

Yes the trumpets are the first seven plagues and mixed with mercy,

Notice in the following verse, "plagues" and "repented not".

Re 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

Notice the next verse,

Re 15:1 ¶ And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

EGW had it laid out in 1888,

"The power of the Holy Ghost must be upon us, and the Captain of the Lord's host will stand at the head of the angels of heaven to direct the battle. Solemn events before us are yet to transpire. Trumpet after trumpet is to be sounded, vial after vial poured out one after another upon the inhabitants of the earth. {1888 762.1}

We actually had a cinch of the time frame at the announcement of the trumpets,

Re 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

That is our High Priest, Jesus Christ there ministering in our behalf!

I'm sorry as verbally as an explainer I am not prolific and as a writer even far less prolific.

But then again I realize long thesis's are not read and even short ones not well but are skipped over if the context is not of the belief held.

But I continue to try because I love Him and His Truth and love to spread it.

His Blessings I pray.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.