Seventh Gay Adventist

[M. T. Cross]

None of which is really the point Club. But don't think for a second I did not notice how many things you chose to gloss over.

Why do I not see a great outcry crusading against smoking and drinking the same way? Why are you not railing against addictive prescription drugs? These are deadly as well, often family wrecking things.

See it seems to me that ya'll must have gotten all your personal ducks in a row so well that you are sinless and can now concern yourselves with other peoples transgressions.

[ClubV12]

I am indeed as adamant about smoking, drinking, drugs and vice in general. I recently sold my house. AFTER repairing the damage from the tenants on meth. AFTER going to court to get them evicted. It was a nightmare.

This thread is dealing with something of more immediate and deadly concern, the dangers of an LGBT lifestyle and the marketing ploy that dismisses that reality.

When you stand before the Judge, he is not impressed with your concept of "the devil made me do it". He wants you to take personal responsibility for your behaviour. He is not impressed with your excuses about being drunk or stoned or fooled into something. Nor is nature impressed, violate the laws of nature and you will pay the price, period, there is no appeal, no excuse. This is Gods other book speaking to you, His book of nature.

[M. T. Cross]

The highest percentage of new cases of HIV are among the 13 (THIRTEEN) to 24 year old age group.

How many news reports, or any reports, have you seen among THIS age group, of LGBTs', that you would say fit into this marketing ploy of "happy, responsible, loving" couples?

THIRTEEN M.T. What do you think the odds are this young age group is being "groomed" by gay men looking for sex? How many of them are told they are "loved"? Thats about how old my brother was when he entered into the party scene. He wasn't looking for some nice guy to settle down with, he was looking for sex. Just like everybody else in that demographic of young gay men, 13 to 24. With raging hormones ready to be taken advantage of.

The same group you are telling, "No worries, what could possibly go wrong". And you suggest those giving them the straight truth are "haters"? Whose is the real hater M.T.? I suggest it is those who will be an accessory to their death.

The "numbers" are sufficiently profound for any reasonable person to conclude this is an epidemic and it is very serious. There is no reason for you to be deceived, no excuse.

[CoAspen]

Appreciate your comments and evenness in spite of the rude comments about you from 'christians'.

Quote:

Here is a bit of news. Hatred and spite and bigotry are either there or they are not. It does not matter ones spiritual views, either its is evident or its not. Here it is. The responses (even the cleverly edited ones) have done nothing but prove my point.

Sigh....It seems the most conservative are the most anti-gay and other sexual sins they abhor. Tis a primary focus in their lives....which makes me wonder as to why.....seem to have quite a few 'Bible thumpers' getting involved in such!!

jus' observing.....

[ClubV12]

Society does the best job it can to point people in the direction of a caring, responsible lifestyle.

Some folks need extra special attention, like jail. Like a significant wake up call. Like HIV. Drug users are in this class, drunk drivers as well, many others.

Here we are dealing with the dangers of LGBT groups in epidemic proportions. What viable solution does society offer? New drugs, if you can afford them. The enemy fights back with new strains of faster acting more resistant HIV strains. The outlook is not good, the solution remains out of reach.

God has a solution, but it is only for those who believe AND obey. Moral accountability, a concept society has abandoned as impractical. They discovered abstinance doesn't work, so they hand out condoms and hope for the best. And then they pass laws that encourage this deadly lifestyle. This is madness!

M.T., you along with society are in fact promoting a dangerous lifestyle.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

See it seems to me that ya'll must have gotten all your personal ducks in a row so well that you are sinless and can now concern yourselves with other peoples transgressions.

Since your admission is as a non-believer in the one Creator God,

why do you find it so offensive as to find the need to discourage others from proclaiming the message as instructed by that personal Father, you believe to be a fairy tale. Is it also offensive to you if I believe in the seven dwarves?

BTW The God of Heaven loves all mankind, and suffers those who hate Him, with freewill choice, until the master they have chosen to follow allows their destructive habits reach the inevitable end of their existence.

"For God did not send the Son into the world in order to judge (to reject, to condemn, to pass sentence on) the world, but that the world might find salvation and be made safe and sound through Him.

He who believes in Him [who clings to, trusts in, relies on Him] is not judged [he who trusts in Him never comes up for judgment; for him there is no rejection, no condemnation—he incurs no damnation]; but he who does not believe (cleave to, rely on, trust in Him) is judged already [he has already been convicted and has already received his sentence] because he has not believed in and trusted in the name of the only begotten Son of God. [He is condemned for refusing to let his trust rest in Christ’s name.]

The [basis of the] judgment (indictment, the test by which men are judged, the ground for the sentence) lies in this: the Light has come into the world, and people have loved the darkness rather than and more than the Light, for their works (deeds) were evil." John 3:17-19 AMP

parenthesis brackets theirs' LHC

God cares! Jesus saves!

[M. T. Cross]

M.T.,

I know it sounds condescending and holier than thou to say spiritual matters are spiritually discerned; and, you being a worldly man are at a disadvantage, but it is true nonetheless.

[M. T. Cross]

Since your admission is as a non-believer in the one Creator God,

why do you find it so offensive as to find the need to discourage others from proclaiming the message as instructed by that personal Father, you believe to be a fairy tale. Is it also offensive to you if I believe in the seven dwarves?

BTW The God of Heaven loves all mankind, and suffers those who hate Him, with freewill choice, until the master they have chosen to follow allows their destructive habits reach the inevitable end of their existence.

At the risk of getting redundant LHC, and in the hope that maybe this time you will actually pay attention, I will again say what I have said to you time after time.

I don't think your God is a fairy tale. I don't think your Bible is a fairy tale. I simply think he is a deity just like other deities, and that the Bible is the human perception of him just like any other mythology of any other culture or belief system. Myth does not equal made up story, but rather is the human perception of something greater than us. If you believe in the seven dwarves it would not bother me in the slightest until you told others that they have to worship them or be lost forever, or that others had to follow your perception of their message or they would be doomed forever.

[ClubV12]

"What you are saying though is since I am not a SDA Christian, I have no understanding of anything spiritual."

No, thats not the way it works, as all men have been given a measure of faith. Salvation is possible for even the heathen who has never heard of Jesus. Never talked to or heard about Christians. That man who has never heard of Jesus has evidence of a higher power in Gods book of nature. He is gifted with a measure of moral responsibility, which could be called "faith". The "heathen" knows to some degree it is not right to kill his neighbor, steal his arrows, take his children. IF he is sensitive to this inward voice, this Spirit of love, this conscience, IF he does not turn away from it, he will grow in grace. He will live up to all the light God provides. He will be a friend to man, a kind person, a man people will respect and even love.

But if he shuns this voice of mercy, he will NOT be living up to the light he has received. His heart will be selfish, he will take what he can, do what he can get away with. He will not be a kind man in the sense that he lives to help others.

You, M.T., demonstrate this spiritual awareness to some degree with your compassion toward fellow man as it regards your wish for them to live a good life. You have not been left in darkness, you too have been given a measure of faith. Along with sufficient evidence for you to make a rational, free will choice. To follow God, or not. While you may see spiritual things dimly, you still them to some degree. The closer you get to God, the more your spiritual vision increases.

At this point, it really is impossible for you to see the higher callings and understandings that those who follow God develop over time. But I have hope that one day, your spiritual vision will increase, even as mine does. For I too am blind to many spiritual things. Were just on different planes of our journey.

[M. T. Cross]

You, M.T., demonstrate this spiritual awareness to some degree with your compassion toward fellow man as it regards your wish for them to live a good life. You have not been left in darkness, you too have been given a measure of faith. Along with sufficient evidence for you to make a rational, free will choice. To follow God, or not. While you may see spiritual things dimly, you still them to some degree. The closer you get to God, the more your spiritual vision increases.

At this point, it really is impossible for you to see the higher callings and understandings that those who follow God develop over time. But I have hope that one day, your spiritual vision will increase, even as mine does. For I too am blind to many spiritual things. Were just on different planes of our journey.

Congrats Club, you demonstrated right there the entire attitude that made me leave the SDA church in the first place and kept me from ever coming back.

That's not a bad thing because I have had my spiritual vision multiplied a great number of times since leaving.

[ClubV12]

Many people feel like their vision is increased when they use drugs. Or engage in some illicit activity that gives them a "rush". So it was Eve, when she took the apple and took a bite she thrilled with a new sense of "vision", of knowledge. But this is a deception, there are two forces at work in the great controversy. The evil doer and the Son of Righteousness. Lucifer is very skilled at deception. He WILL give you a greater measure of understanding, apparently a greater vision. But this will not be accompanied by the sweet savor of peace and love that comes with a true knowledge and a true spiritual vision from Jesus.

No, I'm afraid my friend, what you count as an increased spiritual vision is a trick of the evil one. Sure it feels good, he is not stupid, he knows what men like to feel, he knows all the tricks in the book. He WROTE the book! Delusion is exceedingly powerful because it appeals directly to our sense of pride. Those in it feel "special", like they have secret knowledge, a more powerful discernment than those around them. Superior in every regard.

This is not the Spirit of God. As we come to know Him, we see more and more how helpless and fragile we are. How much in need of His grace we are. We are humbled, ashamed even as we behold how blind we were to spiritual things.

I wish you the very best my friend, that you may at some point, find your way home.

[olger]

God is looking through the earth to see those who are faithful to Him.

In Zechariah He says, "Return unto Me, and I will return unto you."

That is good news for us poor humans.

`oG

[CoAspen]

Quote:

Keeping men and woman comfortable in their sins robs of them of the search for the Savior they so desperately need.

It seems to me that pointing out their "sins" keeps the person doing the pointing comfortable and safe from looking at their own. Christians claim to have a faith that their God is so extremely powerful, but so many don't seem to trust him to show his power to others, so they will do it for him......

And..as you have noticed, there are many who continue down the path of not trusting God, through the HS, to do what God feels is right for each and every individual. As you have also noticed, they fail to show real trust in the Word of God, citing the need for an external source to explain it to them, since it is impossible to understand fully on their own, so they say. They also express a distrust in one having a 'spiritual' experience that doesn't match their own. To me it all show a lack of trust in the God they claim to believe in.We are all on a journey, each separate, not robots marching in line, but humans seeking for answers.

My approach would be to listen and understand why you believe the way you do and hope that you could do the same for me. I do not see you at any disadvantage, there is a verse in the Bible saying 'it rains on the unjust as well as the just'. I believe the God of the Bible is there for everyone and just shakes His head when He sees the people He created, sitting themselves up as superior over another human being.

Have a good day!!

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

you demonstrated right there the entire attitude that made me leave the SDA church in the first place and kept me from ever coming back.

A bad, misguided attitude exists in a large portion of the human population. Some people feel it's so bad they check out early by a bullet to the head, after they've spent a brief stint seeing how many innocent lives they can destroy before they leave this life. And another portion are selective in their hate, making it the main purpose of their life to kill and destroy before they are stopped by cooler heads.

A couple of realities keeps me from joining their ranks.

"Then God said, “Let us make human beings in our image, to be like us..." Gen 1:26 NLT

"The thief does not come except to steal, and to kill, and to destroy. I have come that they may have life, and that they may have it more abundantly."John 10:10 NKJV

The 1st scripture defines one option of Who we can find happiness and joy with in everlasting life, that starts on this earth. The 2nd text describes what we can experience on this earth with the option left.

There are different paths we can walk on this earth, but only two options for the everlasting experience, whether others treat me well or not, and I'm not going to let the behavior of others, by the grace of God, determine where my future lies, and so I choose to leave my future in His hands.

"I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd."

John 10:16 NASB

"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me."John 10:27 NKJV

Hope you see a better way yielding to His power, the power of Love. After all, who better to trust yourself to than the one who created the heavens and the earth and all that is in them?

God cares! Jesus saves!

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I really need to say something here at this point, regarding the spirituality of pagans.

It has been *my* experience that there is a VERY deep spiritual connection with gods and/or goddesses. Writing from my experience, I can honestly state that the spiritual connection I had with my chosen goddesses was far and above that which I have with the Christian God. And before anyone starts pointing fingers at me, and waggling their tongues that I must not have a very good relation with God, let me say this: it's a very different type of relationship, comparing that with pagan deities and the Christian God.

I think it's very unfortunate that while Christians talk a lot about having a "personal relationship with Christ," I think it's a very difficult thing to do. To be honest, the God that most Christians present is very difficult to get along with, much less to try to understand.

One nice thing about a pagan deity is that, for the most part, they don't induce their followers to condemn others who don't believe as they do. They also don't demand that you give up your "self," as so many Christians believe they must do for the Christian God. Pagans are allowed to be human - and being human is "OK"...

there's lots more I could write, but I've probably given some members here enough fodder for some self righteous condemnation of what I've written.

So, suffice it to say, M.T. Cross is probably more spiritually aware than a lot of people... it's not nice to judge others..

***back to topic... whatever it is...***

[olger]

Two points.

Experience can be treacherously deceptive. (Eve saw that the tree was good).

There are many spirits, and one touchstone (the Bible). (1 John 4:1.

`G

[olger]

One nice thing about a pagan deity is that, for the most part, they don't induce their followers to condemn others who don't believe as they do. They also don't demand that you give up your "self," as so many Christians believe they must do for the Christian God. Pagans are allowed to be human - and being human is "OK"...

This is absolute deception ^^^.

"O LORD, my strength and my fortress, my refuge in time of distress, to you the nations will come from the ends of the earth and say, "Our fathers possessed nothing but false gods, worthless idols that did them no good. Do men make their own gods? Yes, but they are not gods!" (Jeremiah 16;19-21).

[CoAspen]

Quote:

Experience can be treacherously deceptive.

Then you are against EGW....she called for an experiential knowledge/relationship with Christ. You, I would suggest, are very afraid of experiencing 'feelings'!

There are many Gods that christians have also, and their are false too....such as pride, false humility, and the desire to be always right, to just name a few. Man looks at the outside while God looks at the heart. I feel quite safe in that knowledge and do trust that the God I believe in will speak to me when necessary.

[ClubV12]

Rudywoofs, as I see it, isn't speaking about the moral gods Christians face. False pride, humility, appetite, etc. She is speaking specifically about her experience directly related to "false gods". gods who cannot speak, hear, see, real "idols", gods and goddesses. And as a result of following these gods an elevated experience of increased spirituality and awareness.

And I agree, there IS an apparent and seeming higher plane, a deeper connection as she puts it, with these gods. I don't doubt that in the least. The problem is, it's the same delusion Eve experienced. It's the powerful draw false gods present. I note the feelings of superiority that accompanies this style of worship. Being special, exclusive, more patient, more loving than most Christians have ever experienced, perhaps ever will experience!

This is the same experience that accompanies those who speak in tongues and manifest other fascinating spiritual awareness. It feels good, it feels superior, it has a certain righteousness that accompanies it. It appeals directly to your pride. Another very powerful delusion.

Drugs do much the same thing, so does drinking in many cases. The heart is deceitfully wicked, the devil exceptionally skilled at providing just what we want/need to experience.

I STILL wonder how Saul, after being a prophet and so blessed and used of God, could fall so low as to think he could gain insight and knowledge from a witch and an evil angel portraying a dead person. Thats a head scratcher, how he could fall for that delusion, surely he KNEW better? But he consulted with the evil spirits never the less...

[Gibs]

Jesus Christ and our Heavenly Father leaves each and every one of us absolutely free to choose the way we will go and what we come to believe as truth.

There is some deep thinking to be worked with here in what is brought up.

Yes, a Christian does surrender all that He is to His new and Chosen Master. Yes a death of self the old man must be and never to be resurrected if we desire to remain a Christian.

Now that the old man is dead, a new man of His Spirit is born, this is the new birth, the most wonderful experience one can have. It is truly being born again and a new and greater life has begun.

Now too a relationship like one never dreamed of begins with the one we have come to love first and foremost above all. Yes and that is Jesus Christ, the one who died and shed His blood and suffered like no man ever has to overcome the devil that we might through Him have the REAL life, ETERNAL Life!

Think about that, it is a gift at a tremendous cost to our Heavenly Father and His One and Only Begotten Son. How can we not love Him who gave all that could be given in such a great love we are unable to fathom with our finite minds.

He proved He first loved us even when we were out and rebellious and didn't deserve anything!

You see, when born again of His Spirit, He dwells in you, He is the comforter, the Spirit of truth. He promised He would be with us till the end of the world!

Yes Both our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ both do have a personally Presence that we would at this time would be consumed in Their direct Presence.

But God is a Spirit and so comes to us and dwells in us by Spirit,

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Php 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

He is the closest and best friend we can have, closer than any human relationships and dearer. For one thing I know His Love for me is greater than any other ever was or could be! Yes! He is my desired Master and I am His Willing subject!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

I recently was considering my own spiritual health and realized that I was such a mess, how was salvation possible? I identify with Paul, struggling to walk the Christian walk, failing at times.

Gotta stop looking at self, I looked again, a little higher. I saw HIS righteousness, accounted to me. Oh how I thank God it will be His righteousness in the end that will allow me, a sinner in filthy rags, to enjoy the companionship of heavenly beings.

Christ and His righteousness, my only hope. My response? A Spirit of love that leads me to want to be like Him, to please Him in all my doings. I don't always get it right, but I'm always covered by His righteousness. I am so thankful for that. Stumbling toward the goal, He lifts me up, carries me when He has to, He won't let go, ever.

[Gus Foster]

To address the 'gay' situation does seem to be a motivational subject -- did not mean to cause any antinomianism explosion. Seems like the moral laws are substantive while the spiritual laws are mystical. (I haven't seen any of the physical Godhead recently)

Personally, I am more concerned about the decline of the Western World's culture shrinking into the second 'dark ages' than who is playing around with whom.

At a recent YMCA Bible study group the comment was made that it does appear that all religious denominations are blending into one -- that the 2200 denominations in America are all on the same plane, (Plain) which is about to crash into the scenario of Rev 13, 17 & 18.

I am amazed, no, astounded, that no one seems to notice (or to care) that all finances, all economies are now under the control of the Vatican. Vatican 2 has prevailed and we have encouraged it with our focus on worldly endeavors.

Yes, it does concern me that gay couples will give sex toys to their youngsters to play with; but please do not let that blind us to the fact that Bible Prophecy is being fulfilled right before our vision.

Every endeavor outside of sharing Christ and His righteousness is to turn one away from that Jesus, to one that economicalism is striving for.

[Gibs]

Gus, it is no longer that the Vatican is running the world. That day for them is past, now it is of the ones who rule by control of all money and industry thus they puppet all rulers of the world.

Not many know of who all these are and I've found it is dangerous to reveal them and I am not one who knows but a few.

He who has the money rules from here on out.

" I saw that the two-horned beast had a dragon's mouth, and that his power was in his head, and that the decree would go out of his mouth. Then I saw the Mother of Harlots; that the mother was not the daughters, but separate and distinct from them. She has had her day, and it is past, and her daughters, the Protestant sects, were the next to come on the stage and act out the same mind that the mother had when she persecuted the saints. I saw that as the mother has been declining in power, the daughters had been growing, and soon they will exercise the power once exercised by the mother. {SpM 1.4}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

Doesn't matter who they are Gibs. We know the daughters of the beast, Sunday keeping Churches, will be the ones to insist and demand a National Sunday law.

I don't really care WHO is the one behind the curtain, even the Sunday keepers won't be fully aware of that, nor will they care! They just want to take this country back to God and see a Sunday law as the way to do that.

In the end, Sabbath vs Sunday will be the final test for mankind. When it happens, it won't really matter who is behind your not being able to buy or sell. You can blame the Government, the Tea Party, the President, the Pope, the Mormons, the beast. All that will matter when your hungry and the rent is due, is whether you will go along with the "revolution" or not.

[M. T. Cross]

I really need to say something here at this point, regarding the spirituality of pagans.

It has been *my* experience that there is a VERY deep spiritual connection with gods and/or goddesses. Writing from my experience, I can honestly state that the spiritual connection I had with my chosen goddesses was far and above that which I have with the Christian God. And before anyone starts pointing fingers at me, and waggling their tongues that I must not have a very good relation with God, let me say this: it's a very different type of relationship, comparing that with pagan deities and the Christian God.

I think it's very unfortunate that while Christians talk a lot about having a "personal relationship with Christ," I think it's a very difficult thing to do. To be honest, the God that most Christians present is very difficult to get along with, much less to try to understand.

One nice thing about a pagan deity is that, for the most part, they don't induce their followers to condemn others who don't believe as they do. They also don't demand that you give up your "self," as so many Christians believe they must do for the Christian God. Pagans are allowed to be human - and being human is "OK"...

there's lots more I could write, but I've probably given some members here enough fodder for some self righteous condemnation of what I've written.

So, suffice it to say, M.T. Cross is probably more spiritually aware than a lot of people... it's not nice to judge others..

***back to topic... whatever it is...***

I don't know if I am MORE spiritually aware, but outside of that you have nailed it.

I would add that in my experience, the type of relationship with any deity is very different from another one.

And I see that you got the response that you expected, that I expected you would and that is no surprise. But I say many blessings towards you for trying, and I love you for it.