Can a pagan be saved? ²

[M. T. Cross]

Originally Posted By: M. T. Cross

Gerry, fair enough, but again - how do you think the Gods I honour would feel?

Why settle for the lesser gods? YHWH is the God of gods, Lord of lords, and King of kings.

Its not settling, its responding to the Gods that made themselves known to me - directly.

I asked your God to do that, maybe he was to busy, or maybe he didn't care, maybe he decided I was better off with some other God...... who knows, but he never responded.

[CoAspen]

Quote:

You guys are not very good at this converting someone thing....

First you don't ever address the questions asked directly.

You answer questions with questions. I have done this as well but the big difference is I am not trying to convince you to become pagans.

How about an open dialogue where you actually consider the other persons viewpoint and show it some due respect. I imagine it would make for a much more enlightening conversation.

Ya, you noticed! Why do you think someone took the topic out of place where dialogue with respect is expected?

[Kevin H]

may i share this story?

i believe this is important to God's people today.

I don't see why not

[olger]

You guys are not very good at this converting someone thing....

[CoAspen]

Quote:

`Sides...the word 'pagan' means idolatrous and polluted. That's what I was prior to accepting the Lord.

pagan |ˈpāgən|

noun

a person holding religious beliefs other than those of the main world religions.

Hmmm, making your own definitions again? You wouldn't be judging others by your own past life....would ya?

[olger]

Quote:

`Sides...the word 'pagan' means idolatrous and polluted. That's what I was prior to accepting the Lord.

pagan |ˈpāgən|

Copy/paste skill deficiency...

In the Bible, pagans are defined as those who worship false gods - ie. idolatry. See for example, Second Kings 23:5, Zephaniah 1:4.

In Amos 7:17 the word tame' is translated as pagan. It means defiled, polluted and unclean.

Merriam Webster: Pagan

"1: heathen 1; especially : a follower of a polytheistic religion (as in ancient Rome)

2: one who has little or no religion and who delights in sensual pleasures and material goods : an irreligious or hedonistic person."

Truly, you should have known.

the G

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Oxford Dictionary, Oxford University Press:

noun

~ a person holding religious beliefs other than those of the main world religions.

~ dated derogatory a non-Christian.

~ an adherent of neopaganism.

Origin:

late Middle English: from Latin paganus 'villager, rustic', from pagus 'country district'. Latin paganus also meant 'civilian', becoming, in Christian Latin, 'heathen' (i.e., one not enrolled in the army of Christ)

[M. T. Cross]

Getting definitions of a word is a great start to understanding.

Still though, while some of those definitions are close to what the modern understanding of the word is, they are still not totally on the mark.

Generally speaking a pagan is a person or religion that self identifies under that umbrella term. The beliefs found within are vast.

Some are monotheists

Some are polytheists

Some are animists

Some are pantheists

Some are atheists

Some are agnostics

Some are various combinations

Some are none of the above

Some pagans do indeed use idols. Most that I am aware of do not worship the idol as being the deity itself.

Some do not use idols at all.

Some pagans are indeed into a hedonistic life filled with sensual pleasures, of course so are some Christians.

A lot of pagans are your regular run of the mill Jones' with a family, mortgage payments, bills and worries.

Heathens on the other hand are not the same thing in modern usage.

The majority of heathens are followers of the Asatru or Vanatru belief systems or a combination there of. Almost exclusively they are followers of Nordic, Icelandic and/or Germanic traditional beliefs. A lot of heathens will say it is a world view as much as it is a religion. Most of them also do not like being put under the pagan umbrella which is really how the usage of the word Heathen came into play.

I really think that Heathens, at least the ones I have encountered, have some of the most intense moral values I have ever seen.

Now the reason I bring these definitions up is because we are talking about whether pagans at this point of history can be "saved"

So since definitions are being put out there - its important to get it right.

[M. T. Cross]

Originally Posted By: M. T. Cross

You guys are not very good at this converting someone thing....

How do you know that? Are you the baseline?

[olger]

Forsooth.

I don't have my own truth - I found The Truth (John 14:6). That is the only hope for humanity - you and I included.

`G

[Gregory Matthews]

"Forsooth" is an interesting word that is not often used today (outside of those who use it in CA).

In its ancient meaning one might consider it to mean "indeed" or "truely."

However the M & W dictionary has an interesting comment as to how it is often used today"

Quote:

Definition of FORSOOTH in truth : indeed —often used to imply contempt or doubt

[Windsor]

So are you saying you asked the true God to respond to you, and pagan Gods spoke verbally rather than Yahweh? We are not to put the Lord our God to the test. He reveals Himself to whom He chooses not to whom we choose. For the rest of us, he gives us His prophets as well as the Holy Scriptures. We know that Satan can appear as an angel of light or any pagan god he chooses. We can't put our trust in what we see and hear. We can only trust the scriptures.

[CoAspen]

Quote:

We are not to put the Lord our God to the test.

Depends on what you are calling a test. I seem to remember an O*T person that did just that, several times, and others are recorded as well. Even EGW talks about haveing an experientail relationship. That sounds very much like a testing situation. God does not seek blind allegience...at least in the Bible as I read it.

Quote:

He reveals Himself to whom He chooses .......

Again, I see no Biiblical support for that idea rather the opposite! I believe He is available for all, regardless of race, creed, color or religious preference or belief system. If not, then I would see Him as no different than the ancient Gods of the Greeks or ones made of stone or wood.

[M. T. Cross]

So are you saying you asked the true God to respond to you, and pagan Gods spoke verbally rather than Yahweh? We are not to put the Lord our God to the test. He reveals Himself to whom He chooses not to whom we choose. For the rest of us, he gives us His prophets as well as the Holy Scriptures. We know that Satan can appear as an angel of light or any pagan god he chooses. We can't put our trust in what we see and hear. We can only trust the scriptures.

Nope, I said I put the BIBLICAL God to the test, I spent the better part of my life reaching out to him, long after I developed a disgust for his followers I still reached out to him and had an incredible faith that one day he would answer, that one day he would make a difference in my life. Time after time,I reached out to him. I was met with silence. Time after time I rejected logic and I rejected the many things that puzzled me as just things I was not meant to know. Cause it was God and he was there for me - right? At the depth of addiction, at all the other low points I had faith that he was there for me.

Then an event happened, something personal enough that no I will not share what it was, and it was my darkest, soul wrenching moment. A moment that I would never wish on anyone ever. A moment that absolutely destroyed me. A moment where death would have been a much better option. I reached out to him and discovered he was absolutely not there for me.

In the process of healing from that ( a process that is still ongoing ) I found light, I found hope, I found comfort, and I found a road to peace. I found this through Gods that are patient teachers, loving companions, that will essentially slap you upside the head for being a self absorbed idiot. Gods that will answer when I call, and that will make me face my own ego, make me responsible for my decisions, and when I see the darkness there will lovingly (sometimes a tough lovingly)help me through that darkness.

I will NEVER say that your God does not do that for people. I have known people he has been there for, I have heard and read stories, beautiful stories of his love and grace. It just was not there for me.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

I will NEVER say that your God does not do that for people. I have known people he has been there for, I have heard and read stories, beautiful stories of his love and grace. It just was not there for me.

You sound so fair. I would never want to question your sincerity. So I need to ask the Creator God, "Lord, can you give me an answer for a person in this position?".

" And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world."John 12:47 KJV

"...because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened." Romans 1:19-21 NASB

God cares! Jesus saves!

[Windsor]

Quote:

We are not to put the Lord our God to the test.

Depends on what you are calling a test. I seem to remember an O*T person that did just that, several times, and others are recorded as well. Even EGW talks about haveing an experientail relationship. That sounds very much like a testing situation. God does not seek blind allegience...at least in the Bible as I read it.

Quote:

He reveals Himself to whom He chooses .......

Again, I see no Biiblical support for that idea rather the opposite! I believe He is available for all, regardless of race, creed, color or religious preference or belief system. If not, then I would see Him as no different than the ancient Gods of the Greeks or ones made of stone or wood.

I'm not talking about a metaphorical revealing. I'm talking about actually seeing with the eyes and hearing with the ears. A very small number of people through history have been so privileged. How many of us would like to see Him right now? Yet, He just doesn't appear at our whim. We don't control him.

I'm assuming that MT Cross saw and/or heard a being that revealed itself as some sort of pagan deity.

[CoAspen]

Quote:

I'm assuming that MT Cross saw and/or heard a being that revealed itself as some sort of pagan deity.

That would be a problem that can lead down many a wrong road, tis far better to ask than assume!

Just ask him!!

[joeb]

The question has been asked "Can Pagans be saved?"

The real question is, Can they be converted to Jesus. If so, then they can be saved.

Rejoice always,

`oG

I'd say, in comment on your post, that it depends. Can a pagan be saved that rejects the knowledge of Christ and His sacrifice? No. Can a pagan be saved who has never heard of Christ but follows the leading of the Holy Spirit? Yes.

The difference? The pagan who rejects Christ has stopped following the leading of the Holy Spirit, for the Holy Spirit's job is to lead humanity to Christ. I'll add one more qualifier. The pagan who rejects Christ has the opportunity to receive Him up until the time his/her probation closes. Once that has closed the choice has been made for eternity.

[Windsor]

Well my assumption was based on what he said. Perhaps I misinterpreted his words.

MT, Did a pagan deity reveal itself to you visibly or audibly?

[debbym]

i have experienced deep dark moments, when i failed myself and others failed me, and i endured all kinds of shattering and breaking and God did not stop this from happening. i did not form the belief it was because God was denying me tho, or not being there for me.. when i reached out for God and god absolutely did not respond in a way that i could recognize as God.

i could not explain why i was allowed to endure such extreme sense of pain, and abandonment, and the sense of all my fears coming true...

when i asked God, as in my creator, divine, and all knowing, all loving God... how he could allow this to happen to me, because i was His Child, i did receive the inspired thought, that all those out there in the world who were experiencing such terrible things were also indeed God's children. and God's children are not promised life without pain, and even unbearable pain, and even premature death, or even martyrdom.

so just because i was not delivered from my suffering when and how i sought did not lead me to decide God was just not there at all.it was about it was a good 12 to 14 years waiting and looking for some relief and healing, it was no picnic.

whatever way you chose through your mind and emotions to find a way to faith and have a spiritual experience is sacred ground MT. God, as i understand, knows every atom and every thought, and everything you endured, and is compassionate towards all who suffer from all forms of inhuman treatment. He is merciful and will bless you in every way he can. it is not mine to see into it, or measure, or critique your inner, spiritual life.

[olger]

"Forsooth" is an interesting word that is not often used today (outside of those who use it in CA).

In its ancient meaning one might consider it to mean "indeed" or "truely."

However the M & W dictionary has an interesting comment as to how it is often used today"

Quote:

Definition of FORSOOTH in truth : indeed —often used to imply contempt or doubt

Thanks, we know what it means already.

You forgot your disclaimer.

rejoice always,

G

[olger]

Indeed and...

Forsooth!

As the Good Book says anyone who accepts Christ is no longer a pagan. He becomes a son of God through the new birth.

"But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name (John 1:12)."

Good news!

`G

[CoAspen]

But...we don't know how you are using it....we could assume, based on your tone, but it is more fair to ask you what definition you are using when posting....could clear the air!!

[M. T. Cross]

Well my assumption was based on what he said. Perhaps I misinterpreted his words.

MT, Did a pagan deity reveal itself to you visibly or audibly?

Like standing in the same room talking to me?

No.

[LifeHiscost]

"Forsooth" is an interesting word that is not often used today (outside of those who use it in CA).

In its ancient meaning one might consider it to mean "indeed" or "truely."

However the M & W dictionary has an interesting comment as to how it is often used today"

Daniel 4:29-32 NKJV

If one were conversant with 1 Corinthians 13, he/she would know which way the Spirit of God would lead.

"Love.....is ever ready to believe the best of every person, its hopes are fadeless under all circumstances, and it endures everything [without weakening]."

1 Corinthians 13:7 AMP Brackets theirs' LHC

God cares! Jesus saves!