GYC Vs “The One Project” – A shocking fact about our shaking church

[Tom Wetmore]

mel, did you go to the recent GYC in Orlando?

[mel20]

Tom, Yes, I did. Why? But anyway, some may think that my quick replies always typed in a comfortable desk with a large screen monitor like you are. I don't think there is a 'doctrinal' err if my fast writings here come from the smaller devices--not as nice as yours.

And to ask someone if s/he went to GYC just with the motivation to spy if this person is a US Citizen or not would lead to another Ad Hominem with a boastful mindset: "Since my english is better, so am I better than this people."

[Stan]

not sure how the US citizen question came up, several here are not, I am one of those.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

paranoia du jour

this is getting bizarre...

IP addresses are seen by those in charge here...I highly doubt they need to resort to subterfuge to figure out who lives where...

and what would it matter, anyhow??

[Johann]

Does it really matter what kind of equipment we use to get our message to this forum?

Sitting on the back seat with a daughter at the wheel we are following in the tracks of the snow plough on a mountain rangee. Here we pass the spot where a 21 year old female student blinded in a snow drive last time we passed this spot. Her funeral took place yesterday.

Now we are on our way to listen to Pastor Duda from the Division. We need to hear the undeluded message, and not the new synthetic variety no matter what wonders some of you claim it provides.

And now the daughter wants some information on healthful living, so I'll tune my Galaxy in that direction.

[Gregory Matthews]

Debbym said:

Quote:

i do speak and read and write English, but i am having a hard time getting what you are trying to communicate here, can you please reiterate what you are saying here?

I often have little idea as to what is being said.

Recently this thread was reviewed by a very active SDA layperson. His comment to me was: Their English teacher certainly failed in the task of teaching English.

[Gregory Matthews]

mel20 said:

Quote:

. . . a comfortable desk with a large screen monitor like you are.

I have seen Tom's office, desk and monitor. It is neither comfortable nor large.

Mel20: Why do you have a need to jump to conclusions without any evidence to support them?

I also have seen Tom in person, sitting in his office. I shall wait to see what false conclusions you jump to as to what Tom looks like.

Tell me. Is he one who attracts the glances of beautiful women? IOW, does Tom look like Daniel in the story of Susanna?

Or, does Tom look like the dragon in the story of Bel who met the dragon? Perhaps you are Bel?

I could not help myself.

[phkrause]

This morning one of the consultants for the One Project, who also happens to be a union president, called me and we spoke about their work. I have known this man and his wife since they were small children,and I know they both come from very strong SDA families.

He told me that the One Project has based their efforts on the book the Desire of Ages, including every doctrine in the life of Jesus Christ. And they will continue using the books of Ellen White as the basis of their work and proclamation.

When I mentioned some of the things you people have been presenting about them on this forum, he replied that it made him very sad, but not surprised, because it is based on false assumptions created by some people whose credibility leaves some to be desired. Not a single doctrine of the Seventh-day Adventist Church is rejected, but Jesus Christ is made the central point in every doctrine. What some of them express is that no doctrine has any value without Jesus Christ.

When I mentioned Dr. Sweet, he said he had never met him, nor noticed his particular influence. I said that one of the arguments against the One Project is that this Methodist theologian will speak for 30 minutes in Seattle.

- Greet them and tell them that at the recent Fall Council with Ted Wilson we listened to a non SDA speaking for one and a half hours. So they will have to find some better arguments to prove their credibility.

excellent post Johann

[phkrause]

If someone else has pointed this out earlier, I apologize, cause I did skip over a few posts.

The problem (other than the legal ones) that lies in claiming that one can't plagiarize truth is that one has to establish what truth is in the first place. This is not to argue theology, but even different translations of the Bible say somewhat different things.

But setting aside public domain spiritual writings, of which there are many from different belief systems, how do we decide what is truth? We can't. So when you directly take something from a book, an article, a blog and do not credit the author it is theft.

As far as the comment earlier about "Was Jesus plagiarizing"? - Jesus was not writing a book. He was having a conversation and he most often did refer to either the author or "the prophets" - which is giving credit.

excellent post MT

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: Windsor

The fact that Leonard Sweet is Methodist had absolutely nothing to do with the objection people have to him speaking.

Isn´t it that he is not a solid Seventh-day Adventist?

What is your point?

Exactly

[phkrause]

Johann said:

Quote:

This morning one of the consultants for the One Project, who also happens to be a union president, called me and we spoke about their work. I have known this man and his wife since they were small children,and I know they both come from very strong SDA families.

He told me that the One Project has based their efforts on the book the Desire of Ages, including every doctrine in the life of Jesus Christ. And they will continue using the books of Ellen White as the basis of their work and proclamation.

When I mentioned some of the things you people have been presenting about them on this forum, he replied that it made him very sad, but not surprised, because it is based on false assumptions created by some people whose credibility leaves some to be desired. Not a single doctrine of the Seventh-day Adventist Church is rejected, but Jesus Christ is made the central point in every doctrine.

Johann, I agree with you. I also personally know a denominational person of influence who has spent time in Sweet's home and is very knowledgeable of One Project. I have personally lost respect for the ethics and integrity of some of the critics. I do not have a problem with the people who have different understandings of SDA doctrine and belief. But, the actions of some of the critics pass well beyond that into basic ethics and integrity.

Also, I personally know one of the persons associated with One Project who is soundly criticized by some of these people. His central focus is on Jesus Christ as the center of every part of our (SDA) Doctrine, belief and life.

God is absolute honesty and truth. No human has ever achieved that. If I know a person well, I can expect to see in every person, to include me, a failure to reach that level. But, there comes a point where the lack of ethics and integrity tells me that they are not doing the work of God.

For some the lack of accuracy in their statements is probably ignorance rather than intent. But, that in itself in not an excuse. For others it is probably deception as happened with Eve. But, she gave the serpent the entry point for the deception. There are probably other reasons. Well, we are all human and the Father of Lies knows how to manipulate that humanness.

[phkrause]

Quote:

Jesus in His love for the aforementioned, did not refrain from turning over the money changer's tables, though He knew it would raise their ire to the point of murdering Him.

they were profiting and making merchandise of salvation, as much as anyone could.

they were using holy things of God to increase their own glory.

when we use the scriptures to lift ourselves up, we are in the same kind of relationship to God.

in our human nature we are capable of using truth to exalt ourselves. and if the truth does not lead us to humble ourselves and be emptied of self seeking, and bringing attention to ourselves, we will do with divine things exactly what those men in the temple were doing, in our character and lives.

yes Jesus cleansed the temple of those who used sacred things to aggrandize themselves. when we feel exalted because we have the "truth" instead of humbled and self distrusting we are on the same ground.

it is Gods love and mercy we are to impart to the world working in and through our changed characters.

Quote:

We are constantly receiving of God’s bounty, and by imparting of the same we are to represent to the world the love and beneficence of Christ. While all heaven is astir, dispatching messengers to all parts of the earth to carry forward the work of redemption, the church of the living God are also to be co-laborers with Jesus Christ. We are members of His mystical body. He is the Head, controlling all the members of the body. Jesus Himself, in His infinite mercy, is working on human hearts, effecting spiritual transformations so amazing that angels look on with astonishment and joy.—The Review and Herald, December 24, 1908.

[Tom Wetmore]

Tom, Yes, I did. Why? But anyway, some may think that my quick replies always typed in a comfortable desk with a large screen monitor like you are. I don't think there is a 'doctrinal' err if my fast writings here come from the smaller devices--not as nice as yours.

And to ask someone if s/he went to GYC just with the motivation to spy if this person is a US Citizen or not would lead to another Ad Hominem with a boastful mindset: "Since my english is better, so am I better than this people."

All I asked was whether you were at the GYC in Orlando. That is a significant piece of this topic you started. Since you were apparently trying to contrast it with the One Project I was hoping for some indication of what happened at recent GYC. I assume that it would be relevant as a means of promoting what it was that I thought you were supportive of. But since after it was over you gave no update of current GYC activities, I was wondering if you even were there.

I got more of a report from someone in the GC building who was there. Apparently a positive event. I would assume that anyone who was there would have some enthusiasm to report the positive experience of being there. I would assume it might result in some sort of positive change in those who were there that we might see evidence of it.

So what did you get out of being at GYC?

[Johann]

It would be good to get some positive reports from the GYC event.

Pastor Daniel Duda gave us yesterday an excellent historic account of most of the mileposts in church history since 1500, and then the mileposts in SDA history from 1844 - 1888 - 1905 - 1956-1958.

Since 1958 he claimed that our church has split into 6 factions, and ever since Adventism spends most of its time, finance, and energy on winning members from the other factions within Adventism, leaving very little to win other people for Christ.

Now is the time for these factions to start looking for the positive in each other, and learning how to cooperate in the task of bringing the Advent message to the world.

Where do we start?

[debbym]

the twelve disciples were also very divided and in frequent conflict over who was most worthy for the highest position in Christ's kingdom. Being filled with the desire to prove how honorable and right one is, is common and approved of.

this was the dependable expression of human nature, and still is and will ever be.

when the newest members of the body of Christ were consumed with the desire to glorify Jesus, and life him up to the fallen multitudes, the world was shaken.

how can we cast ourselves in this direction?

[Unity]

Quote:

Since 1958 he claimed that our church has split into 6 factions, and ever since Adventism spends most of its time, finance, and energy on winning members from the other factions within Adventism, leaving very little to win other people for Christ.

Page 59 of the Church Manual states, under the section titled Safeguarding Unity of the Church:

Although all members have equal rights within the church, no individual member or group should start a movement or form an organization or seek to encourage a following for the attainment of any objective or for the teaching of any doctrine or message not in harmony with the fundamental religious objectives and teachings of the Church. Such a course would result in the fostering of a divisive spirit, the fragmenting of the witness of the Church, and thus in hindering of the Church’s discharge of its obligations to the Lord and the world.

[Gregory Matthews]

The bottom line is that many believe that the SDA Church consists of several factions. The number most commonly given is five. Regardless of the number, it is commonly believed that it consists of several factions.

[Johann]

Is there any independent ministry anywhere which did not appear because they felt they either had a special knowledge or possibility to "fight" for something essential which was not taken care of properly by the existing church organization?

Have they all been breaking the rules in the Church Manual?

[debbym]

Quote:

Is there any independent ministry anywhere which did not appear because they felt they either had a special knowledge or possibility to "fight" for something essential which was not taken care of properly by the existing church organization?

Have they all been breaking the rules in the Church Manual?

the reality of the factor of our humanity,

and some degree to which our fleshly nature impacts the ministry of God's kingdom in the world

cannot be denied.

if the presence of criticism breaks the rules of the church manual we all do it. God uses the weak and erring still to bless the world, church leaders, and independents alike...

there are believers successfully bring people to Christ, and bringing salvation and deliverance from sin, who are not sda, and God does not withhold his blessing from them.

there is an enemy who is using every angle to influence the efforts of believers who seek to glorify God, in bias's, fears, opinions, and superior knowledge.

in Church i see fear filled people literally run out the door of the church if someone else in the service raises their hands in worship.

there is heightened fear in those looking for the return of Christ, that has been around a long time, with every fresh display of the enemies power in the world.

bitterness, accusations, fear, criticism, lack of the most basic confidence in one another are common and everywhere.

this goes with the territory of being human actually.

God works with us as we are with all these weaknesses and faults and errors, even when we start groups and organizations to improve on the church, and try to do something no one else is getting done etc.. much seems to depend on how much money we have, energy to spend, and excitement about the kingdom.

actually we need more ministries and more missions started. everyone has a ministry, but it is not to attack and criticize and tear down the efforts of the main organized church, individual members or the independent ministries. The individual labors of members need not be in antagonism with the main body of the church.. fingers can point in every direction. Isaiah 58 says put away the pointing of the finger.

there is time and place and work enough for every individual to labor for Christ.

bottom line no one is going to do the work you fail to do, starting with the work in your own heart. and there is individual work for every believer and every new believer, that is waiting to be done.

there are cultural gaps, social class conflicts, income based conflicts, differences in education, conditions of health, and mental health, and experience. And differences in culture, language, customs, traditions, and every kind of difference imaginable, and the power of the Holy Spirit alone can bring unity, and The Spirit can bring Unity and will.

and this doesn't mean everyone will see everything the exact same way even then.

[CoAspen]

Good post. No, a really good post!!

[Unity]

Quote:

Is there any independent ministry anywhere which did not appear because they felt they either had a special knowledge or possibility to "fight" for something essential which was not taken care of properly by the existing church organization?

Have they all been breaking the rules in the Church Manual?

The problem isn't independent ministries. It is that their exist those that don't uphold the authority of the Church Manual, our stated common beliefs, the process of discipline, appropriate reasons for discipline, etc. And there are those in dependent ministries that don't uphold parts of it or any of it. Yet their Conference, their Union, and the General Conference does nothing!!!

My point is that ALL THIS DISUNITY IS OBVIOUSLY WHAT IS HAPPENING AND NOBODY WANTS TO LISTEN TO PLAIN WORDS OF TRUTH SPOKEN OF BY OUR PROPHET!!! IT'S

What did she say about the authority of the Church?!

It amazes me that people sit around asking each other about it, or talking as if they're an authority on the topic, when they can simply read the Church Manual and the prophecies given by EGW in it.

Rebuild the walls.

[Gregory Matthews]

Unity: There is something that you do not understand. As far as the overall operation of the various sections of the SDA Church is concerned, the Division WORKING POLICY is the governing document, not the CHURCH MANUAL.

[Unity]

The Church Manual has existed in its current format since 1932. It describes the operation and functions of local churches and their relationship to denominational structures in which they hold membership. The Church Manual also expresses the Church’s understanding of Christian life and church governance and discipline based on biblical principles and the authority of duly assembled General Conference sessions. “God has ordained that the representatives of His church from all parts of the earth, when assembled in a General Conference, shall have authority.”—9T 261.

The Church Manual is divided into two types of material. The content of each chapter is of worldwide value and is applicable to every church organization, congregation, and member. Recognizing the need for variations in some sections, additional explanatory material, presented as guidance and examples, appears as notes at the end of the Church Manual. The notes have subheadings corresponding to chapter subheadings and page numbers of the main text. The standards and practices of the Church are based upon the principles of the Holy Scriptures. These principles, underscored by the Spirit of Prophecy, are set forth in this Church Manual. They are to be followed in all matters pertaining to the administration and operation of local churches. The Church Manual also defines the relationship that exists between the local congregation and the conference or other entities of Seventh-day Adventist denominational organization. No attempt should be made to set up standards of membership or to make, or attempt to enforce, rules or regulations for local church operations that are contrary to these decisions adopted by the General Conference in session and that are set forth in this Church Manual.

Page 18 of the Church Manual

[Tom Wetmore]

But what does that have to do with the price of tea in China?

[Unity]

From the Original Post:

Quote:

However, based on the Biblical guidelines (especially from the book of Isaiah, Jeremiah, Chronicles, and Daniel & Revelation, of course) the final shaking must be first happening in

1. The House of God, then

...

Then after the Angels of God finished the separation in that harvest time, Jesus shall come again.

From the Church Manual:

Quote:

“This statement holds its force in all ages. On the church has been conferred the power to act in Christ’s stead. It is God’s instrumentality for the preservation of order and discipline among His people. To it the Lord has delegated the power to settle all questions respecting its prosperity, purity, and order. Upon it rests the responsibility of excluding from its fellowship those who are unworthy, who by their un-Christlike conduct would bring dishonor on the truth. Whatever the church does that is in accordance with the directions given in God’s Word will be ratified in heaven.”—7T 261-263.

Church’s Responsibility—“God holds His people, as a body, responsible

for the sins existing in individuals among them. If the leaders of the church

neglect to diligently search out the sins which bring the displeasure of God

upon the body, they become responsible for these sins.”—3T 269.

As the tares have their roots closely intertwined with those of the good grain, so

false brethren in the church may be closely linked with true disciples. The

real character of these pretended believers is not fully manifested.

Like I have pointed out, it is easy to see open sin within our churches. It IS FULLY MANIFESTED. Perhaps not in all of the SDA churches in the world, but the pattern I have noticed is that it is common. As I have shown the NAD and GC are doing nothing about it. The pattern I have noticed that the conferences and local churches also believe it is OK to not apply the procedure of discipline that is clearly given in the The Bible, Ellen White's writings, and the Church Manual. I have yet to find a church that in deed follows this procedure.

This, in addition to the lack of other things that are ignored in the Church Manual, creates divisions. We are inconsistent. Ellen White predicted what would happen. She also says the result is that God's face has turned from us. Many can feel it but they can't discern the reason. We have many different ideas, many of which are at the least partially correct but lack any source of authority from God. Here is an authority that is backed by The Bible, Ellen White, and the Church Manual.

Has anyone here responding to me about it actually read the one document that actually unifies us as a Church denomination?