fccool Posted January 30, 2014 Posted January 30, 2014 Quote: Eva Braun? Nop. The game goes on :) Quote
LifeHiscost Posted January 30, 2014 Posted January 30, 2014 Originally Posted By: arnie Adventists! If Sister White says you need to dress up, well, then, I guess you gotta dress up. All opposite opinions don't count. Arnie Somehow the flavor of your statement feels offensive and hostile. Surely I have misunderstood your meaning. Quote Lift Jesus up!!
Guest arnie Posted January 30, 2014 Posted January 30, 2014 Naomi, Surely, you have. I guess what I'm saying is that if you go by the SOP that Jackson Quoted in his post.. .well, it's settled. Sister White says to wear your best. That mean's if you believe in the SOP than you need to dress up in your best good suit. .what's the debate? No hostility meant, just fact. Quote
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted January 30, 2014 Members Posted January 30, 2014 Quote: Interesting how some feel others are suppose to be at the same level of piety as they esteem themselves to be. I keep coming here in hopes that our peoples have changed. But alas - no change. Reading this conversation, I'm really reminded of someone... let's see if someone can guess why what? you're comparing someone here to Nurse Ratched? I don't think it's a good comparison. She held dominion over people who could not escape her power. There's no one here, or anywhere in the SDA church, who cannot leave. Some may feel Ellen White is the SDA equivalent of Nurse Ratched. That may be a true feeling for some who deem every word she spoke or wrote to be the last word on everything under the sun. But even Ellen herself didn't think that way. **sigh** what a malevolent (as opposed to benevolent) thread this has become... Quote Pam      Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others?
LifeHiscost Posted January 30, 2014 Posted January 30, 2014 Quote: what a malevolent (as opposed to benevolent) thread this has become... So relieved it is seen as such. Makes me feel somewhat ashamed where I've added grist to the mill. How grateful I am for those who see the righteousness and blood of Jesus as there hope and do not allow my weak moments to discourage them from that hope. God saves! Jesus saves! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
LifeHiscost Posted January 30, 2014 Posted January 30, 2014 Quote: **sigh** BTW, we use to watch that program and recognized her when her picture was displayed. Do you happen to remember the name of the program? God blesses! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
fccool Posted January 30, 2014 Posted January 30, 2014 Quote: what? you're comparing someone here to Nurse Ratched? I don't think it's a good comparison. She held dominion over people who could not escape her power. There's no one here, or anywhere in the SDA church, who cannot leave. Some may feel Ellen White is the SDA equivalent of Nurse Ratched. That may be a true feeling for some who deem every word she spoke or wrote to be the last word on everything under the sun. But even Ellen herself didn't think that way. **sigh** what a malevolent (as opposed to benevolent) thread this has become... Methinks you protest too much My refernce to Nurse Ratched is that she is not really open to reason, because she is fully convinced that what she is doing is "good" for the patients. She employs guilt and shame in order to get her way, and when all fails, she flexes her institutional fist to have people lobotomized. While the analogy obviously fails in context of mental institution, at times conversing with older generation Adventists feels like trying to hold conversation with nurse Ratchet, who isn't really interested in your reasons... but only is interested in "hospital protocol". That's why I brought it up. Quote
Guest arnie Posted January 30, 2014 Posted January 30, 2014 Rudywoofs, If Adventists believe that Ellen received her inspiration and revelations from God, then one would have to conclude that it's believed she was the last word on everything and ,yes, after reading her opinions that she made about her own writings one would have to arrive at the conclusion that's exactly how she felt. She is often referred to as "The Pen of Inspiration" by the Adventist Church and it's messenger or prophet. The above is just a statement of fact. If what she wrote was her own opinion, then she is would be an inspired writer but not necessarily a prophet.Arnie "sigh" Quote
Guest arnie Posted January 30, 2014 Posted January 30, 2014 fccool, I take it, you're not an "older generation adventist"? I like your comment, " she flexes her institutional fist to have people lobotomized". In a way, It reminds me of what the Adventist Church did to me and it's hard not to have revenge. My generation was taught what the Church wanted us to know, and that everything Ellen wrote was gospel. When I started reading my Bible, it was apparent there were alot of questions on discrepencies in what I was taught and what was Bible truth. I can say it has taken a while to undo the hostility that I felt and obviously, it rises now and then. I still belong to the Church, but my witness is I'm a Christian who believes in Jesus, the Bible and what it says. May God Bless, Arnie Quote
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted January 30, 2014 Members Posted January 30, 2014 Quote: **sigh** BTW, we use to watch that program and recognized her when her picture was displayed. Do you happen to remember the name of the program? LHC, the photo is from the movie, "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest" -- despite what has been written here, Nurse Ratched's motives in what she did to the patients were *not* benevolent, nor done out of concern of what would be "good" for them. Quote Pam      Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others?
fccool Posted January 30, 2014 Posted January 30, 2014 Quote: Nurse Ratched's motives in what she did to the patients were *not* benevolent, nor done out of concern of what would be "good" for them. Nah, the whole point of the film was to address the broken system of institutionalized psychotherapy that treated people like animals thinking that it would eventually be good for them to undergo their stay. I don't think that you can fairly state that her intentions in the film were intentionally malevolent. She simply was committed to the idea of authoritarian approach to mental health. Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted January 30, 2014 Moderators Posted January 30, 2014 Quote: for a planned meeting with Him? Can you explain in which sense do you "meet God" in church building? I never recalled meeting anyone but people there through my entirety of Christian experience. The OT Tabernacle was called "Tent of Meeting" because that was where God met his people in a very special way. Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted January 30, 2014 Moderators Posted January 30, 2014 In the minds of many there are no more sacred thoughts connected with the house of God than with the most common place. Some will enter the place of worship with their hats on, in soiled, dirty clothes. Such do not realize that they are to meet with God and holy angels. There should be a radical change in this matter all through our churches. Ministers themselves need to elevate their ideas, to have finer susceptibilities in regard to it. It is a feature of the work that has been sadly neglected. Because of the irreverence in attitude, dress, and deportment, and lack of a worshipful frame of mind, God has often turned His face away from those assembled for His worship. {5T 498.3} The sanctuary shows God has a preference in regard to the dress of those who minister for Him.--There should be no carelessness in dress. For Christ's sake, whose witnesses we are, we should seek to make the best of our appearance. In the tabernacle service, God specified every detail concerning the garments of those who ministered before Him. Thus we are taught that He has a preference in regard to the dress of those who serve Him. Very specific were the directions given in regard to Aaron's robes, for his dress was symbolic. So the dress of Christ's followers should be symbolic. In all things we are to be representatives of Him. Our appearance in every respect should be characterized by neatness, modesty, and purity. But the Word of God gives no sanction to the making of changes in apparel merely for the sake of fashion,--that we may appear like the world. Christians are not to decorate the person with costly array or expensive ornaments.--Ev 268. All who meet upon the Sabbath to worship God should, if possible, have a neat, well-fitting, comely suit to wear in the house of worship. It is a dishonor to the Sabbath, and to God and his house, for those who profess that the Sabbath is the holy of the Lord, and honorable, to wear the same clothing upon the Sabbath that they have worn through the week while laboring upon their farms, when they can obtain other.--H. to L., Chap. 6, p. 59. {HL 143.3} I'd like to know what's so objectionable about this counsel. I see nothing here that countenances extravagance or display. Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted January 30, 2014 Moderators Posted January 30, 2014 Yes, fcool, you nailed it! Jesus would be appalled to see Christians buying fancy clothes in his honor. That's like building a golden church, it undermines the message of humility. If you call my JC Penney and Kohl Sabbath attire "fancy", then I am flattered. Quote
pegleg bates Posted January 30, 2014 Author Posted January 30, 2014 Originally Posted By: Indignus Yes, fcool, you nailed it! Jesus would be appalled to see Christians buying fancy clothes in his honor. That's like building a golden church, it undermines the message of humility. If you call my JC Penney and Kohl Sabbath attire "fancy", then I am flattered. Including shirt, pants, coat, tie, dress shoes, cologne, decorative wristwatch, etc.. you're looking at over $100. Probably much more. For what? There is no point. Jesus doesn't care about your clothes. It's your peers who will judge your clothes. Quote
Moderators Gerr Posted January 30, 2014 Moderators Posted January 30, 2014 Quote: Including shirt, pants, coat, tie, dress shoes, cologne, decorative wristwatch, etc.. you're looking at over $100. Probably much more. For what? There is no point. Jesus doesn't care about your clothes. It's your peers who will judge your clothes. Jesus doesn't care about my clothes? On the contrary, the Jesus that I know certainly does! ESV | ‎Mt 6:28 And why are you anxious about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin, ‎29 yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. ‎30 But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is alive and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? ‎31 Therefore do not be anxious, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ ‎32 For the Gentiles seek after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them all. And Leviticus is all about cleanliness, including clean clothes. I use Jovan for after-shave. It smells good to me. If you don't want to look nice or smell good, that's your choice. Quote
fccool Posted January 30, 2014 Posted January 30, 2014 Quote: I'd like to know what's so objectionable about this counsel. I see nothing here that countenances extravagance or display. Here's the problem. When I first joined Adventism, I've had this idea that Ellen White was a Nazi control freak, based on what I heard people "Ellen White said". It took me a while to read her advice books, and I was pretty surprised, because I didn't really read anything that I would generally disagree with, especially if I lived in that era and that time. Much of the advice is common sense. We should strive to be better any any sense of the word. The problem that people are missing here is not about being better, but about: 1) Timing 2) Motivation 3) Means In case of dressing better, you simply can't demand people to dress better, if their motivation for coming to church is different - TO BE ACCEPTED AS THEY ARE RIGHT NOW It just sends the wrong message. It sends the message of the kind: UNLESS YOU DRESS BETTER, YOU ARE DOING GOD WRONG, AND PEOPLE AROUND HERE DON'T ACCEPT THAT Say what you like, but that's what it reads like to an outsider who comes to church to belong to a community. Likewise, duty is a terrible motivator. If you want to motivate people, then show them love and care. When they see that you really care, they will be more open to your constructive criticism. I really don't see that as a reality in Adventist church today, at least from personal experience. I came to US with $200 in my pocket, and a Baptist Church in Miami literally shaped me into a man that I am today. There were people who spent time with me, who took me places, and made me feel like I actually belonged in this country, and that church. I wanted to do similar things. Since ever I joined Adventist church, I've had the opposite experience... which actually brought me to the brink of Atheism. If the doctrine is more important to you than people... your church will die in the next 20-30 years, along with the older generation who thinks that they are the righteous believers who "hold on to the truth". Truth makes no difference if people don't see love, or feel that you care. Saying that "You should dress better, because you are meeting the king of the universe" is actually the opposite of how God wants to relate to you all. If he wanted that, he'd come as a king... but he came lower than all of you...as a dirty, homeless, smelling carpenter... AND THAT'S THE POINT. PLEASE QUIT MAKING GOD SEEM UNREACHABLE TO PEOPLE Quote
LifeHiscost Posted January 30, 2014 Posted January 30, 2014 Quote: Jesus doesn't care about my clothes? On the contrary, the Jesus that I know certainly does! ESV | ‎Mt 6:28 And why are you anxious about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin, ‎29 yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. ‎30 But if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is alive and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? ‎31 Therefore do not be anxious, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ ‎32 For the Gentiles seek after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them all. And Leviticus is all about cleanliness, including clean clothes. I use Jovan for after-shave. It smells good to me. If you don't want to look nice or smell good, that's your choice. Agree with that and find it refreshing that others find the dress code for daily or weekly deportment from the Word of the King of kings, of importance. God cares! Jesus saves! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
LifeHiscost Posted January 30, 2014 Posted January 30, 2014 Quote: If the doctrine is more important to you than people... your church will die in the next 20-30 years, along with the older generation who thinks that they are the righteous believers who "hold on to the truth". Truth makes no difference if people don't see love, or feel that you care. Saying that "You should dress better, because you are meeting the king of the universe" is actually the opposite of how God wants to relate to you all. If he wanted that, he'd come as a king... but he came lower than all of you...as a dirty, homeless, smelling carpenter... AND THAT'S THE POINT. PLEASE QUIT MAKING GOD SEEM UNREACHABLE TO PEOPLE A doctrine means a teaching. If the teachings of the Word are not important, why did God include them in the written revelation of Himself? You make a good point. However the Bible clearly points out that there is only one way we can reach Him. That is to receive the gift He proffers. Included in the gift of Himself, having paid the penalty for our sins He offers the Holy Spirit to enable us to rise above this world. If we think we've got the ability of ourselves to make ourselves clean enough to be acceptable to Him, we place our works as the righteousness needed for salvation along with His, an erroneous teaching that will fail to meet the high mark of His calling. "And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags."Isaiah 64:6 NKJV There is a battle going on in this world. Our only way of winning that battle is to admit our unworthiness as well as helplessness, and submit to His righteousness and His power He freely gives. "Submit therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you."James 4:7 NASB For those willing to submit to Him; "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me."Philippians 4:13 NKJV "...for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure."Phil 2:13 NKJV God saves! Jesus saves! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
M. T. Cross Posted January 30, 2014 Posted January 30, 2014 I go two ways on this. I agree that a lot of time it becomes about a fashion statement, and that people spend ridiculous amounts of money on dressing for the occasion. It becomes about showing off and is very egocentric. However there is a flip side as well. Its like romancing your significant other. For some people it is about setting a mood, a mindset that takes them to a spiritual place. You put on those clothes, you know you are ready for worship. There has been a lot of discussion about this at a pagan board I post at. A lot of pagan rituals involve a lot of candles and/or tools. Are they really needed? For some people it really just is a mood setter. The process of laying everything out, lighting the candles etc gets them "in the mood". Some people don't need it at all. Think about communion service. Would it feel the same if the "wine" was served in plastic cups and the unleavened bread was given to you on a paper plate? For some it might not matter, but I am guessing for a lot of people it would seem cheap and disrespectful. The thing is, if your best is jeans and a t-shirt, or that's where you feel your most comfortable and most able to focus on worship, then it really should not matter. If you need that ritual of wearing a suit or nice dress, then by all means do that. Quote
fccool Posted January 30, 2014 Posted January 30, 2014 Quote: You make a good point. However the Bible clearly points out that there is only one way we can reach Him. That is to receive the gift He proffers. Included in the gift of Himself, having paid the penalty for our sins He offers the Holy Spirit to enable us to rise above this world. Yes, and rising above the world... meaning dressing like the world? If we think we've got the ability of ourselves to make ourselves clean enough to be acceptable to Him, we place our works as the righteousness needed for salvation along with His, an erroneous teaching that will fail to meet the high mark of His calling. Quote
LifeHiscost Posted January 31, 2014 Posted January 31, 2014 That's why the Person of Jesus is needed to tell us what is beneficial for the universe the way He wanted it. "But what I do, I will also continue to do, that I may cut off the opportunity from those who desire an opportunity to be regarded just as we are in the things of which they boast. For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works."2 Corinthians 11:12-16 NKJV God cares! Jesus saves! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
scott.t Posted January 31, 2014 Posted January 31, 2014 Discussions like this make me think churches should have two services. One for people comfortable with God and salvation. And one that is like an AA meeting. Where desperate people looking for forgiveness and salvation attend. They are not concerned with appearance or status in life, such things as taste in music or what you eat are of little concern. They know they need help and attend hoping to find it. Scott Quote
pegleg bates Posted January 31, 2014 Author Posted January 31, 2014 Discussions like this make me think churches should have two services. One for people comfortable with God and salvation. And one that is like an AA meeting. Where desperate people looking for forgiveness and salvation attend. They are not concerned with appearance or status in life, such things as taste in music or what you eat are of little concern. They know they need help and attend hoping to find it. Scott I agree, people with no taste for the finer things in life should have their own church service and their own water fountains. Quote
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted January 31, 2014 Members Posted January 31, 2014 Originally Posted By: scott.t Discussions like this make me think churches should have two services. One for people comfortable with God and salvation. And one that is like an AA meeting. Where desperate people looking for forgiveness and salvation attend. They are not concerned with appearance or status in life, such things as taste in music or what you eat are of little concern. They know they need help and attend hoping to find it. I agree, people with no taste for the finer things in life should have their own church service and their own water fountains. that was rude... indig, somehow, you're beginning to sound an awful lot like someone else who has been here before and behaved badly... just sayin' .... Quote Pam      Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others?
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