How does it all end - and what brings in the 7 last plagues?

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Samie

What brings in the 7 last plagues?

From Scriptures: there is NO 7 last plagues UNTIL AFTER the Second Coming!

Until you read Rev 15 and 16 -- and notice how far they are from the 2nd coming event described in Rev 19.

[Samie]

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the church would have to be gone or otherwise supernaturally protected.

Not having studied deep enough to place without question, where and when the 7 last plagues might fall, it is certain the righteous receive their reward at the second coming of Jesus.

...

[BobRyan]

[quote name="Sa

Originally Posted By: BobRyan"][quote=Samie

What brings in the 7 last plagues?

From Scriptures: there is NO 7 last plagues UNTIL AFTER the Second Coming!

Until you read Rev 15 and 16 -- and notice how far they are from the 2nd coming event described in Rev 19.

[BobRyan]

God never forces people. But the Sunday law will force people to make a decision. And the seven last plagues don't force anything; probation has already closed.

And yes, God does care more about saving his people; that's why we're still here on earth in all this ugliness. But He does have His limits, like with Sodom & G.

And it's not just the practice of homosexuality. In I Cor. 6 there is a verse that lists 10 different types of sin that will keep people out of the Kingdom of God. That is just one of the ten listed.

So certainly the gay marriage issue would break the Ten commandments and would qualify as a dividing issue in Rev 14 - which works - but as SDAs we know that the real issue that drives the SDA church out of formal organization, and pretty much out of existence is the Sabbath question and the subject of the state of the dead.

So then how does this thing go from the current trend of driving all the serious Christian groups farther out on the fringes and imploding into one large non-Christian immoral mess - to being a contest where the religious right takes over government?

Seems like some "new thing" would have to show up.

in Christ,

Bob

[JoeMo]

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as SDAs we know that the real issue that drives the SDA church out of formal organization, and pretty much out of existence is the Sabbath question and the subject of the state of the dead. Emphasis added)

I would question the fact that we know. these things. I would clarify and say we "Believe" these things. Why do we believe them? Because EGW said so; and arguably her position is strongly supported by scripture as interpreted by SDA's. The Sabbath and state of the dead are never specifically mentioned in scripture. What is mentioned is "worship" as an issue. What if the issue is simply "who are you gonna worship - the world or God?"

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So then how does this thing go from the current trend.../to being a contest where the religious right takes over government?

Why does it have to be the religious right? For example, Islam fits the qualifications of antichrist just as good (IMO even better than) Catholicism or the religious right. So does Putin. So do space aliens.

No matter what be "Know" or "Believe", we would be foolish to put on blinders and only watch for those scenarios predicted by EGW. There are many more scenarios that are just as plausible.

[JoeMo]

It doesn't have to be a Sunday Law that brings about end-time events. A simple global crash or hijacking of the Internet would do the trick. All electronic financial transactions would cease. Power, water, and phone service would go out in most of the world. Assuming the "good guys" (whoever they are) get the web going again, They could very well require anyone world wide who accesses it to do so using an implanted chip as a sign-on. You can't participate in the electronic market (that includes credit cards and any bank accounts) without the "mark of the beast" in your hand or forehead.

[CoAspen]

For both comments...there is so much that we THINK we KNOW!

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Samie

The events described in Rev 19 occur AFTER the 2nd Coming. Proof:

People are already in heaven:

Well not exactly. There is a great multitude there but they are not humans.

...

Sorry, brother, but you are mistaken. The Scripture verses you provided did not say those people in heaven are not humans. Instead Rev 19:1 informs us they are humans. The Greek word used is "ochlos" NOT "plethos". Not for once in the Bible was "ochlos" used for non-humans.

[LifeHiscost]

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Samie

Scriptures above-quoted tell us clearly that the events in Rev 19 transpired AFTER the 2nd Coming when the Groom takes His Bride with Him to heaven!

"That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

2 Thessalonians 2:2-4 KJV

"And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws:"Daniel 7:25 KJV

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JoeMo

It doesn't have to be a Sunday Law that brings about end-time events.

And the scriptures above refer to who?

God Cares! Jesus Saves!

[JoeMo]

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And the scriptures above refer to who?

Any one of a number of people or powers, including the ones I mentioned in my post above. Keep your mind open, or you might miss it!

[M. T. Cross]

And the scriptures above refer to who?

God Cares! Jesus Saves!

Jay -Z!

(that was mocking btw - not you per say but the whole jay z is the antichrist thing)

[Samie]

There seems to be no objection for what I had posted relative to Matt 16:27 and Rev 22:12.

LifeHiscost seemed to have accepted 50% of what our Savior emphatically declared in those verses. I say 50% because LifeHiscost was certain the righteous gets rewarded at the 2nd Coming, but as for the rewarding of the wicked LifeHiscost is not sure when.

[LifeHiscost]

There seems to be no objection for what I had posted relative to Matt 16:27 and Rev 22:12.

LifeHiscost seemed to have accepted 50% of what our Savior emphatically declared in those verses. I say 50% because LifeHiscost was certain the righteous gets rewarded at the 2nd Coming, but as for the rewarding of the wicked LifeHiscost is not sure when.

"For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his own soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul? For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. “Assuredly, I say to you, there are some standing here who shall not taste death till they see the Son of Man coming in His kingdom.”Matthew 16:26-28 NKJV

"He who is unjust, let him be unjust still; he who is filthy, let him be filthy still; he who is righteous, let him be righteous still; he who is holy, let him be holy still.”

“And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End, the First and the Last.”"Revelation 22:11-13 NKJV

While the texts in context make it very plain, all will be rewarded at the time of Jesus' second coming, according to what they have done or what they're like at that at time, there is so much that can be spoken about in those scriptures one would almost have to have a minimum of hours to cover it all. Sometimes that is why, especially on the forum, I take my cue from this text.

"Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things."

Philippians 4:8 KJV

Effectively all will be rewarded at the second coming of Christ, however there is another return where the wicked will not only bow before the Lord Jesus Christ, but it will be just prior to their 2nd death, the final reward.

It is better to be born twice and die only once, than to be born once and die twice, something that can only be self evident when one has a relationship with their elder Brother, Jesus.

"Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”"John 8:31-33 NKJV

God cares! Jesus saves!

[LifeHiscost]

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It doesn't have to be a Sunday Law that brings about end-time events.

This is found to indicate why some are seen as a most telling evidence of the time of the end. This is taken from a post on another forum and seems to fall in line with the Scripture below.

The Catholic Message Board - Hosted by Stephen Ray. Author of "St. John's Gospel", "Upon This Rock", & "Crossing the Tiber".

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I tried to source these (with little success) to see the context.

Of course they are being presented and beaten to death as more reasons the Church (wrongly) claims authority. :roll:

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The Convert’s Catechism of Catholic doctrine - 1957, p50

Q. Which is the Sabbath day?

A. Saturday is the Sabbath day.

Q. Why do we observe Sunday instead of Saturday?

A. We observe Sunday instead of Saturday because the Catholic Church transferred the solemnity from Saturday to Sunday.

Catholic Record Sept 1, 1923

“Sunday is our mark of authority… The Church is above the Bible, and this transference of Sabbath observance is proof of that fact.”

Catholic World, March 1894, p.809

“She took the pagan Sunday and made it the Christian Sunday… and thus the pagan Sunday, dedicated to Balder (Baal), became the sacred Sunday sacred to Jesus.”

Faith of our Fathers – Cardinal Gibbons

“Of course the Catholic Church claims that the change was her act, and the act is a mark of her ecclesiastical power.”

Father Enright, American Sentinel, June 1893

“The Bible says: remember that thou keep holy the Sabbath day. The Catholic Church says: No! By my divine power I abolish the Sabbath day and command you to keep holy the first day of the week. And lo, the entire civilized world bows down in reverent obedience to the command of the holy Catholic Church.”

Catechisms Romanus 1867 Ch 3

Pope Pius 1566 commanded by council of Trent. “It pleased the church of God that the religious celebration of the Sabbath day should be transferred to the Lords day (Sunday)” – see Yes 58:13

Catholic press (Sydney)Aug 25, 1900

‘Sunday is a Catholic institution, and its claims to observance can be defended only on Catholic principles…From the beginning to the end of Scripture there is not a single passage which warrants the transfer of weekly public worship from the last day of the week to the first.’

The Catholic Mirror Sept 23, 1893

‘The Christian Sabbath is therefore to this day the acknowledged offspring of the Catholic Church, as spouse of the Holy Ghost, without a word of remonstrance from the protestant world.’

Albert Smith, Chancellor of the Achdiocese of Baltimore

‘If protestants would follow the Bible, they should worship God on the Sabbath day. In keeping the Sunday they are following a law of the Catholic Church.’

S C Mosna, Storia della Domenica, 1969 pp 366-367

“Not the Creator of the Universe, in Gen 2:1-3, but the Catholic Church can claim the honor of having granted man a pause in his work every seven days.”

The Catholic Mirror Dec 23, 1893

“Reason and common sense demand the acceptance of One or the other of these alternatives: either Protestantism and the keeping holy of Saturday, or Catholicity and the keeping holy of Sunday. Compromise is impossible.”

"And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time."Daniel 7:25 KJV

God cares! Jesus saves!

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Samie

The events described in Rev 19 occur AFTER the 2nd Coming. Proof:

People are already in heaven:

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

Well not exactly. There is a great multitude there but they are not humans.

...

Sorry, brother, but you are mistaken. The Scripture verses you provided did not say those people in heaven are not humans. Instead Rev 19:1 informs us they are humans. The Greek word used is "ochlos" NOT "plethos". Not for once in the Bible was "ochlos" used for non-humans.

[JoeMo]

Excellent post Samie - I pretty much agree with everything you said. The only thing that I would add (and I simply hold this as a possible alternative rather than a conviction) is that after the millennium, when all the dead who were not resurrected at the beginning of the millennium are raised to a resurrection of judgement, they will be judged on the deeds they perform AFTER they are resurrected and see who God really is (as opposed to who they thought He was in their previous life). That way, they are making an intelligent and informed choice on whether or not to follow God. I still think many will reject Him.

[BobRyan]

Excellent post Samie - I pretty much agree with everything you said. The only thing that I would add (and I simply hold this as a possible alternative rather than a conviction) is that after the millennium, when all the dead who were not resurrected at the beginning of the millennium are raised to a resurrection of judgement, they will be judged on the deeds they perform AFTER they are resurrected and see who God really is

Only if you reject the Bible teaching on the sinful nature - and on the fact that it is the deeds in this life that determine the next as we see in 2Cor 5:8-10 and Romans 2:6-16. (And of course - Matt 7, 1Cor 6 Romans 6 etc.) - basically all of the Bible.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

It doesn't have to be a Sunday Law that brings about end-time events. A simple global crash or hijacking of the Internet would do the trick.

Pushing a few of the right buttons can end life on earth in less than 2 two days.

The point is not 'what can' but "what will" final events look like.

For SDAs we have a pretty good idea of what Rev 14 is actually talking about. That means that the current state of things is pointing to an upcoming change. Because otherwise the gay-marriage issue alone will end it.

in Christ,

Bob

[CoAspen]

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Because otherwise the gay-marriage issue alone will end it.

Well, Bob....I think yours and mine sins is more likely to make the end come.

[JoeMo]

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Because otherwise the gay-marriage issue alone will end it.

My first impression was to just ignore this post; but on 2nd thought, just for the record, I think it's pretty bizarre to think that gay marriage is gonna bring out the antichrist. If you think keeping gay activity illegal is going to somehow keep people from being gay, you're living in a cave. That's about as smart as saying the war on drugs is stopping people from using them. Anyways ...

A couple things about the post millennium resurrection:

The people resurrected at that time will not have renewed spirit-filled minds. They will have the same broken human minds that they had when they went to the grave. They will still be swayed by their own self-interests.

Also, satan is set free at this time; and he will have the same power to deceive and discourage as he has now. Just as he can today, he will have the ability to sway broken human minds to his plan by appealing to their basest emotions - greed and fear.

So, let's just say for sake of discussion that people are judged for the deeds they perform after the post-millennial resurrection (rather than out of ignorance or deception in this life). satan can sway them then just as he does now. That's how satan recruits an army to attack the Holy City. Plus, satan will have plenty of allies on his side; as many people in this life made an informed decision to reject God in this life; and as such have already sealed their eternal destiny.

Please understand that I am simply posing a alternative plausible scenario to traditional belief here. I'm not "convicted" about this. There are some people out there that find some twist of this scenario sufficiently biblically sound to at least consider it.

Some of you might remember 8thdaypriest. She talked about this a lot a while back until she was sufficiently discouraged by some of the saints here to leave the site.

[Samie]

Scriptural chronology of events at the period of the 2nd Coming and beyond:

1. General resurrection of the dead, both righteous and wicked: the righteous are resurrected first into the first resurrection; the wicked resurrected next at that same hour:

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NKJ John 5:

28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice

29 "and come forth -- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.

At that time, with everyone who remained alive till His coming and with all dead resurrected - both righteous and wicked - every person born into this world will see the Lord Jesus Christ coming in the clouds of heaven:

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Revelation 1:7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

Those wicked Roman soldiers who pierced the Lord's side as He hung on the cross were long dead. The fact that they see the Savior coming in the clouds proves the wicked are resurrected and see Him come. The Savior's words telling us that when He comes again He will reward EVERY MAN according to what each has done NECESSITATES that all be present to receive his own reward. Thus His own words in John 5:28, 29 EMPHATICALLY tells us all dead will be resurrected. The apostle Paul believes this:

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Acts 24:15 "I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept, that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.

Items 2 & 3 below were discussed in previous posts:

2. The righteous get their reward of life eternal and ushered to heaven for the marriage of the Lamb.

3. The wicked receive their due reward which is the wrath of God - the 7 last plagues.

For items 4 & 5 below, refer to Rev 19.

4. Towards the close of the 7th plague, the marriage of the Lamb ensues. Having received His Bride to Himself to be with Him forever that where He is there shall they be likewise, He returns to earth with His Bride for the final battle, the battle of Armageddon, which is the final phase of the 7 plagues.

5. The righteous will win the battle. All the wicked will be slain, and the beast and his false prophet will be thrown alive into the lake of fire.

Refer to Rev 20:

6. Satan will be captured, chained and imprisoned in the bottomless pit for one thousand years.

7. The Lord with His Bride, still fresh from victory in the battle of Armageddon, will camp on this earth for one thousand years. All wicked having been slain and Satan imprisoned, the righteous will inherit this earth in peace:

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NKJ Psalm 37:

9 For evildoers shall be cut off; But those who wait on the LORD, They shall inherit the earth.

10 For yet a little while and the wicked shall be no more; Indeed, you will look carefully for his place, But it shall be no more.

11 But the meek shall inherit the earth, And shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

They shall reign with the Lord on this earth:

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NKJ Revelation 5:

9 And they sang a new song, saying: "You are worthy to take the scroll, And to open its seals; For You were slain, And have redeemed us to God by Your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,

10 And have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth."

NKJ Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

To be continued...

[JoeMo]

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the righteous are resurrected first into the first resurrection; the wicked resurrected next at that same hour:

If that is true, how do you explain the following scripture?

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And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They[a] had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) - Rev. 20:4-5

[phkrause]

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Because otherwise the gay-marriage issue alone will end it.

My first impression was to just ignore this post; but on 2nd thought, just for the record, I think it's pretty bizarre to think that gay marriage is gonna bring out the antichrist. If you think keeping gay activity illegal is going to somehow keep people from being gay, you're living in a cave. That's about as smart as saying the war on drugs is stopping people from using them.

I don't think that's what Bob is saying at all. What is it that you think "AntiChrist" means?? For me it means that anything that is against Christ would be considered "antiChrist!" Would you not say that?? So sin as a whole would be considered "antichrist" No??? So I ask, is a gay lifestyle considered sin?? I'd say yes!! Just like many other things in life are. Now did Jesus die for us to save us??? Again a big YES!! Correct?? Now how do we except that "Grace" that he has given us???? If we say I accept your death Lord and continue to sin!! On purpose of course. What does that tell you?? That they have excepted that Grace?? I'd say NO!! That by the way goes for all sinners, not just a specific group.

[CoAspen]

Sooooooo, based on your thought, why do we continue to focus on the sins of others??

[LifeHiscost]

What is it that you think "AntiChrist" means?? For me it means that anything that is against Christ would be considered "antiChrist!" Would you not say that?? So sin as a whole would be considered "antichrist" No??? So I ask, is a gay lifestyle considered sin?? I'd say yes!! Just like many other things in life are. Now did Jesus die for us to save us??? Again a big YES!! Correct?? Now how do we except that "Grace" that he has given us???? If we say I accept your death Lord and continue to sin!! On purpose of course. What does that tell you?? That they have excepted that Grace?? I'd say NO!! That by the way goes for all sinners, not just a specific group.

God/Jesus cares!