Whom did God choose & When were their names written in the Book of Life?

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

Evil angels have children with humans.

Since "sons of God" is a term given to those who believe as opposed to unbelievers, and we are told angels are like we will be when we enter the kingdom at translation or resurrection, as well as the fact that life is given by God alone, it is doubtful evil angels have any ability to give life in any capacity at all.

"For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven. "Mark 12:25 KJV

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[Samie]

Quote:

Evil angels have children with humans.

Since "sons of God" is a term given to those who believe as opposed to unbelievers, ...

[JoeMo]

Hi Samie,

While your hypothesis on Nephillim existing as a separate race prior to evil angels mating with human women is feasible, it is just as speculative as the "traditional" interpretation that they were exclusively the product of angels mating with women (not that most people even find this hard to swallow). Without getting into a detailed scriptural expository, I believe the angels who committed this abomination are the ones currently chained in the abyss.

That being said (to get back on topic) I'm not convinced that everyone's name was written in the book of life before the foundation of the world. You get "engaged" to Christ, your name is written there. You break the "engagement" in rebellion, your name is struck from the "will", so to speak. Those who never had a chance to make informed choices in this age will have a chance to do so when they are judged by their deeds in the resurrection at the end of the millennium. Only God can judge when any of these events occur. For my own life, I know I am saved and my name is written there.

I reserve the right to change my mind or say I'm wrong at a later date.

At this point in time, I am focusing more on meditating on God's goodness and glory than rationalizing additional scriptural theories that don't necessarily enhance my relationship with God. I "leak"; and when I have been away from seeking the Spirit for a while, I need a refill to top of my tank.

[LifeHiscost]

Originally Posted By: LifeHiscost

Quote:

Evil angels have children with humans.

Since "sons of God" is a term given to those who believe as opposed to unbelievers, ...

You seemed to have missed this post .

Nevertheless, here's the last portion of that post:

Originally Posted By: Samie

Jesus said that angels in heaven are not supposed to marry (Matt 22:30). Those that intermarried with human women are the angels who sided with Satan. Biblical proof of this intermarriage is in Gen 6:2,4. The phrase "sons of God" in the OT, refers to angels (Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7).

[Samie]

Hi Bro. JOeMo;

... That being said (to get back on topic) I'm not convinced that everyone's name was written in the book of life before the foundation of the world. You get "engaged" to Christ, your name is written there. ...

That would smell like a works-based salvation: do this and get saved, don't you think?

[Samie]

Revelation 13:8...everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world...

This indicates some were never written in the book of life from the beginning, revealing not all were written in the book from conception.

[JoeMo]

Quote:

That would smell like a works-based salvation: do this and get saved, don't you think?

If you think accepting the free gift of eternal life with Jesus; and believing that unconditionally minute by minute regardless of one's circumstances is "work",

then yes; it's works-based. I consider that faith-based rather than works-based. But it isn't easy all the time, either. Even the best of God's people had to struggle to "keep the faith". But the more bitter the struggle, the sweeter the victory.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

then yes; it's works-based.

May I suggest it just happens to be Christ's works while we cooperate.

"Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded. Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness. Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up."James 4:7-10 KJV

".... work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."Phil 2:12-13 KJV

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[Samie]

Quote:

That would smell like a works-based salvation: do this and get saved, don't you think?

If you think accepting the free gift of eternal life with Jesus; and believing that unconditionally minute by minute regardless of one's circumstances is "work",

then yes; it's works-based. I consider that faith-based rather than works-based. But it isn't easy all the time, either. Even the best of God's people had to struggle to "keep the faith". But the more bitter the struggle, the sweeter the victory.

Hi Bro. JoeMo;

Which do you think is faith-based between these two phrases?

1. "Believe to be written", or

2. "Believe we were written".

For me, "Believe to be written" REQUIRES human participation so we can be written in the book of life, and therefore works-based. Our "believing" precedes God's "writing".

On the other hand, "Believe we were written" REQUIRES nothing from us. God's "writing" precedes our "believing".

"Believe to be written" presupposes that while APART from Christ, we can do the good act of "believing" to be attached to Him Who is our Strength for doing good.

On the other hand, "Believe we were written" acknowledges our incapability APART from Him. We can "believe" because we have been attached to Him Who is our Strength for doing good.

[8thdaypriest]

Quote:

It is WHEN one hears His voice, and opens the heart door, that the name is written in THE BOOK. The "lost sheep" responds and turns to follow the Shepherd.

Could you give a scripture that speaks to the underlined clearly, other than assumption?

WHAT IS NECESSARY FOR SALVATION?

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." (NKJ)

John 3:5-6 “Jesus answered, ‘Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.’” (NKJ)

It is NOT ENOUGH to be physically born. One must be "born again" of the Spirit - thru belief and baptism.

Many do not understand the legal procedure and tradition connected with adoption in the ancient Middle East. When the father of a child was unknown, or dead - another man could adopt the child by proclaiming his name over that child - often as the child was born.

Baptism is a type of "birth". Coming up from the water is like "birth". God the Father then calls out His name over the person coming up from Baptism - just as He did over His Son, when He came up from the water of the Jordan.

Acts 16:30-31 “‘Sirs, what must I do to be saved?’ So they said, ‘Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.’” v. 33 “And immediately he and all his family were baptized.”

Romans 8:15 “For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, ‘Abba, Father.’” (NKJ)

SONS OF GOD

Romans 8:14-17 “For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.” (NKJ)

Romans 9:26 “And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them,`You are not My people,' There they shall be called sons of the living God.” (NKJ)

Galatians 3:7 “Only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham.”

Galatians 3:26 “For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. (NKJ)

Galatians 4:5 “to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.” (NKJ)

I believe the "sons of God" who saw the "daughters of men" were the descendants of Seth vs the descendants of Esau. I do not believe that angels CAN interbreed with human women. We are two different species. I do not believe that angels pro-create. Everything necessary for human pro-creation was deemed "unclean" by the LORD. It could NOT come into the Tabernacle court. I do NOT believe that human beings will pro-create in the coming Kingdom. Nothing "unclean" will enter there.

BUT HOW DO WE COME TO BELIEVE

Romans 10:14 “But how are they to call on One in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in One of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone to proclaim him?” (NRS)

HEAR - through the proclamation of the Gospel

BELIEVE

Call on the name of the LORD.

Be Baptized

Romans 10:17 “So faith comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through the word of Christ.” (NRS)

I Corinthians 4:15 Paul calls his converts “begotten” “through the gospel”. They have been “born again” - by the preaching of Paul.

One "hears" the word preached. The Spirit knocks at the door. The person must then respond with belief. This response - this choice - I believe IS OUR PART. Yes, the Spirit and the gospel we hear help us in this process, but in the final step - it is our choice. God has given this power of choice to us. Satan is not allowed to take this from us.

Ephesians 1:13 “In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, (NKJ)

I Thessalonians 3:16 Persecution by Jews and pagans “forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they may be saved,”

2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 “But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto He called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

II Timothy 1:9 Grace was “given before time began, but has now been “revealed through the gospel.”

It was promised or given "before time" - before the creation even, but was not "revealed" until the gospel was preached.

Titus 1:2 “in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot life, promised before time began, but has in due time manifested His word through preaching, which was committed to me according to the commandment of God our Savior.”

The "promise" was "before time", which means it would have been between the Father and His Son, because nothing else existed.

The Father KNEW the name of every person who would one day believe, and thus be adopted as a son or daughter. He KNEW which persons would remain steadfast in their faith. He KNEW - because He sees thru all time.

But that does not mean that any of those people were already saved at that point. God just knew the future, and knew that they would - one day - be saved WHEN they heard the gospel preached, and believed, and received of His Spirit, and were baptized.

I believe that each human being must "be born again" before they can enter the kingdom of God. We are all "born in sin". We are "carnal sold under sin". Little children will NOT go straight to Heaven when they die. They are carnal. They have NOT been "born again".

I believe that children will be resurrected after the 8th millennium with "the rest of the dead". They will grow up, hear the gospel, accept or refuse the gift of salvation in Christ, and choose to serve Christ as King or rebel with the army of Gog/Magog.

Blessings,

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

[8thdaypriest]

Ephesians 1:3-4 “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Regarding this passage: I believe the "us" - "He hath chosen us in Him", refers to those who are "in Christ". Paul is addressing his converts from the Gentiles.

[Gerr]

It appears that the CHOOSING was BEFORE the foundation of the world:

Quote:

Ephesians 1:3-4 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ: 4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Also, God is NOT a respecter of persons:

Quote:

KJV Romans 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

NAS Romans 2:11 For there is no partiality with God.

NIV Romans 2:11 For God does not show favoritism.

Before delving into the issues specified in the title of this thread, I suggest that we first tackle this issue: How can there be choosing and yet no partiality?

Thanks for your inputs, forum mates.

And just what were chosen for before the foundation of the world? Isn't that ALL "should be holy and without blame before Him?" Therefore his choosing is not partial if it excludes who choose not to conform to the plan.

[Samie]

And just what were chosen for before the foundation of the world? Isn't that ALL "should be holy and without blame before Him?" Therefore his choosing is not partial if it excludes who choose not to conform to the plan.

Hi Bro. Gerry;

In line with your thoughts, what is your take about those who were blotted out from the book of life? Since, as you said, they are those whose lives conformed to the plan, why were they blotted out?

[Samie]

WHAT IS NECESSARY FOR SALVATION?

...

[Sojourner]

God is Omnipresent, God exists in the Past, the Present and the Future all at the same time, earthly understandings of time are meaningless in the heavenly kingdom where God is the Alpha and the Omega and is eternal.

It is also my belief that the future is never set in stone and that any person can have multiple futures laid out before them based on the decisions they make in their own lives and I believe that God is Omnipresent in those future streams of your life also. Hence its not hard for Him to be aware of whose names are written where and when. For us its a future event, in Gods eternal kingdom its already in the past.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

I do not believe that angels CAN interbreed with human women.

And I'm satisfied the Word verifies that.

As to the necessity of being born again, obviously true for the enlightened before being allowed into the kingdom or to put it another way, their name not being written in the book of life. I still have a question re: those such as children not having reached the maturity (spiritual) to make that decision, some having died for some reason or another through no fault of their own, making it impossible for them to develop the mind of Christ. I don't believe the Word makes it clear. My own conclusion is that God is faithful to do the merciful thing.

"Sing to Him a new song; Play skillfully with a shout of joy. For the word of the LORD is upright, And all His work is done in faithfulness. He loves righteousness and justice; The earth is full of the lovingkindness of the LORD.…" Psalms 33:3-5 KJV

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[Samie]

Who are referred to by the phrase "sons of God" in the Old Testament?

The phrase is from "ben elohim", which in Hebrew Scriptures appears in FIVE (5) verses: Gen 6:2,4; Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7.

1. In Genesis 6:2,4, "sons of God" intermarried and had children with human women.

2. In Job 1 & 2, "sons of God" presented themselves before the Lord and Satan was with them.

3. In Job 38:7, "sons of God" shouted for joy when earth's foundation was being laid. see vv4-6.

From #3, "sons of God" cannot possibly refer to Adam's race.

From #2, "sons of God" cannot possibly refer to the righteous humans, because Job - a righteous man - was the topic and he was NOT among the group.

From #1, "sons of God" intermarried with human women indicating they themselves were not humans.

If they were not humans, what were they?

Quote:

KJV Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

NIV Job 1:6 One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them.

KJV Job 2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.

NIV Job 2:1 On another day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them to present himself before him.

KJV Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

NIV Job 38:7 while the morning stars sang together and all the angels shouted for joy?

Scriptures or my thoughts?

I go with Scriptures.

[8thdaypriest]

Salvation comes in 3 tenses: Past, Present, Future.

Past Tense:

NKJ Ephesians 2:8-9 2 Timothy 1:8-9 8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

[8thdaypriest]

CONCERNING CHILDREN

in the coming Kingdom of Messiah on the earth

Isaiah Chapter 11

The “little child will lead” the calf and the young lion (v.6).

The “nursing child shall play by the cobra’s hole” (v.8).

The “weaned child shall put his hand in the viper’s den” (v.8).

Isaiah 65:20 There will be “no infant mortality.”

Jeremiah 31:8 “Pregnant women and women in labor” are seen among the redeemed of Isreal gathered and brought back to the land.

This verse suggests that a redeemed woman who died while pregnant, will be raised with the child in her womb, to be born in the Kingdom of Messiah.

Jeremiah 30:18-20 “Behold, I will bring back the captivity of Jacob's tents, And have mercy on his dwelling places; The city shall be built upon its own mound, And the palace shall remain according to its own plan. Then out of them shall proceed thanksgiving And the voice of those who make merry; I will multiply them, and they shall not diminish; I will also glorify them, and they shall not be small. Their children also shall be as before, And their congregation shall be established before Me; And I will punish all who oppress them.”

QUESTION: Many faithful Israelites have lost infants and children over these 6000 years. When will they be resurrected? Will they come up in the first resurrection?

ANSWER: My belief is that they will not. They cannot enter into the consecration ceremony for the

priesthood, therefore they cannot enter "the true Tabernacle which is heaven itself".

They have not yet reached the age of responsible choice.

My own belief is that they will come up in the last great resurrection, along with others who did not know of Christ during their lifetimes.

Righteous parents will meet their children at this resurrection of The 8th Day. These children will grow up in a wonderful kingdom, ruled by Christ Himself.

Most assume that this Kingdom ruled by Messiah - on this earth - is populated ONLY by the saved at this point.

There are clues which suggest otherwise.

1. The "rest of the dead" who "live again".

These will constitute "nations in the four corners of the earth".

2. Little children - who have not yet chosen to serve Christ

3. DEATH in this coming kingdom

Isaiah 65:20 “No more will babies die in infancy, no more will an old man die short of his days - he who dies at a hundred will be thought young, and at less than a hundred thought cursed.” (CJB)

NOTE: What does it mean-for us to “rule the nations with a rod of iron,” unless it includes the possibility of the death penalty?

QUESTION: How could there be death in the Messianic Kingdom? ANSWER: Those raised to continue their lives AFTER the 1000 years will be mortal human beings. They have not yet been “changed”/ “circumcised in flesh.” They have not yet received immortal/spiritual bodies. Therefore they CAN DIE.

QUESTION: Will more offspring be conceived by those raised to life at The 8th Day?

ANSWER: We understand that those raised from the dead will not marry, but will be “like the angels of God in heaven” (Matt. 22:30, Mark 12:25).

I personally do NOT believe that any further conception will occur AFTER the Second Coming. There must be an END to sin.

If infants are given immortality (without first choosing to be indwelt by the Spirit of God) then the possibility of rebellion would continue - without end. If infants are passively "indwelt" from conception, then there IS NO CONSCIOUS CHOICE to enter a relationship with Christ.

It would seem logical that a continuing addition of infants exposed to “sin” would require a continual extension of probationary time, with the possibility of sin and death. How can that be?

Blessings,

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

[8thdaypriest]

Samie's position seems to be that each human being is "in" - redeemed - forgiven - indwelt by the Spirit of God - a "citizen of Heaven",

UNTIL

he chooses to LEAVE the household of God (thru his actions).

He is tempted - enticed - just as Eve was, to "sin".

He is tempted many times, and forgiven many times, before finally being "blotted out" of The Book.

This sounds similar to Mormonism, which teaches that all human beings exited in Heaven as "citizens of the family of God" before being born into flesh, in order to be tested.

My belief is that human beings come into existence as mortal beings of flesh.

During their lifetimes they may - or may not - LEARN of God and of His Son thru information provided to them.

IF they LEARN, and respond to the pleading of the Spirit - THEN they enter upon a relationship.

AT THAT POINT - they are registered in Heaven.

Their choice will be tested.

They may choose to finally leave that informed relationship, if they desire EVIL more than His love.

Their choices are recorded - so that other human beings may later judge whether God is just in "cutting off" this individual. They will not be finally executed without the judgment of a "jury of their peers".

All of those who were "cut off" - "blotted out" (from the Fall to the SC) will be resurrected to judgment and execution at the Second Coming.

A time period of 1000 years will be provided for those who never "heard" of God and His salvation.

There will be millions and millions - constituting "nations in the four corners of the earth".

These will come up as "the rest of the dead".

They will follow the same steps as those who "heard" the gospel during the 6000 years from the fall to the SC.

Some will come to believe in Christ, and will "open the door" of their hearts.

Most will not. (These will rebel as the army of Gog/Magog.)

Blessings,

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

[Samie]

Originally Posted By: Samie

Salvation comes in 3 tenses: Past, Present, Future.

Past Tense:

NKJ Ephesians 2:8-9 2 Timothy 1:8-9 8 Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me His prisoner, but share with me in the sufferings for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

Salvation WAS GIVEN - past tense - before time began - only in the sense that the Son of God agreed to become the Sin Sacrifice for the whole world.

God - who exists in the future, knew/knows who will accept the gift. The point is that an intelligent acceptance of the gift IS REQUIRED. Ones name is not "written into the Book of Life" without ones consent. Salvation is NOT passive. It must be an active. The action (belief and expression of belief) REQUIRES knowledge, which comes as the result of learning thru hearing.

[8thdaypriest]

Originally Posted By: 8thdaypriest

Was it registered BEFORE we heard and responded? Only in the sense that God exists in our future.

I'm glad you somehow acknowledged God REGISTERED us before we heard and responded.

I did NOT.

I said that our God exists in past/present/and future.

[JoeMo]

Samie,

While I think I understand in general your concept of the 3 dimensions of salvation, doesn't one have to be saved in all three dimensions to inherit the kingdom? I agree that in the past tense, we were all predestined to be saved. The Rockefeller kids were all predestined to be rich. They still had a choice to make - to accept their inheritance to realize the gift being offered, just as we must accept the grace and salvation offered to us to realize our predestiny.

[Samie]

Samie,

While I think I understand in general your concept of the 3 dimensions of salvation, doesn't one have to be saved in all three dimensions to inherit the kingdom? I agree that in the past tense, we were all predestined to be saved. The Rockefeller kids were all predestined to be rich. They still had a choice to make - to accept their inheritance to realize the gift being offered, just as we must accept the grace and salvation offered to us to realize our predestiny.

Hi Bro. JoeMo;

Yes, you correctly understand me.

As with the Rockefeller kids, we have a choice to make. We make that choice in the Present Tense of Salvation which is the 2nd Dimension of the gospel. The Rockefeller kids, by virtue of their being Rockefellers, did not do anything to become Rockefeller heirs. But to enjoy the inheritance they have to make a choice. And that is what we do in the Present Tense of Salvation. We want to enjoy the inheritance? Then we need to OVERCOME all evil with good.

There is a world of difference in:

1. "we must accept the grace and salvation offered to us to realize our predestiny"

2. "we must accept the grace and salvation offered to us" to be predestinated

#1 is Scriptural.

#2 is not.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

NOTE: What does it mean-for us to “rule the nations with a rod of iron,” unless it includes the possibility of the death penalty?

Because this text is from the message to the church of Thyatira and carries a further instruction, as well as noting a different expression from other translations considering the Morning Star as a reward for the person who overcomes, it appears to be pre Kingdom instruction since death is not part of the new earth.

"'Nevertheless what you have, hold fast until I come. 'He who overcomes, and he who keeps My deeds until the end, TO HIM I WILL GIVE AUTHORITY OVER THE NATIONS; AND HE SHALL RULE THEM WITH A ROD OF IRON, AS THE VESSELS OF THE POTTER ARE BROKEN TO PIECES, as I also have received authority from My Father"Rev 2:25-27 KJV capitalized theirs' LHC

God is Love! Jesus saves!