Whom did God choose & When were their names written in the Book of Life?

[8thdaypriest]

Sins of Ignorance - Do they result in a "free pass" into Heaven?

 

We have talked about little children "going straight to Heaven", because they did not sin.  Even though Paul says "all have sinned" and that we are "conceived in iniquity", and are born with a carnal nature.

 

But what about adults?

 Romans 5:13  "(For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law." (NKJ)

 

This is speaking of those "times of ignorance" which the LORD "winked at". 

Those unaware of His law are covered by the death of Christ.  The morning and evening sacrifice covered all sins of ignorance, including the sins of "the nations".

 

My belief is that this "covering" simply extends the probation of the one "covered" UNTIL that person HEARS the truths of God.  At that point the person must make a choice.

Your belief Samie, seems to be that every person is SAVED until he/she fails a test of their obedience.  

So -
Let’s take as our example, an ancient Myan King.  He officiated at human sacrifice, and worship of "gods" other than Yahweh.  But his “sin” was one of ignorance, therefore covered by the death of Christ, and “not imputed” to him.

This man dies without ever being exposed to the Law of Yahweh, or the message of reconciliation thru His Son.

IF - as you say - his name was already in the Book of Life (along with the name of every human being who would ever live)

THEN - this man will be resurrected at the Second Coming, and will go to Heaven with all of the redeemed.  

BECAUSE his “sins” were "not imputed" to him.  They were all sins of ignorance, because this man never heard of Yahweh (much less His Son). 

He never knew about the Law or the “way of the LORD”.  

But this man was never “born again”.  He never opened his heart door to Christ.  He never gave his allegiance to Jesus Christ as LORD.  

 

I just cannot believe this man will enter Heaven at the SC.  Neither do I believe it is JUST to leave him "dead like the beast", or resurrect him to judgment and a fiery execution. 

 

What I do believe is that he will be resurrected at the 8th millennium, with the "rest of the dead", into a Kingdom ruled by Christ on this earth.  There he will learn of God's law and HEAR the "message of reconciliation".  He will then either be "born again" and given his allegience gladly to Christ as LORD, or he will resist and rebel.  Those who rebel will be consumed at the Gog-Magog Battle. 

 

ONLY those who died in ignorance - whose sins were therefore "not imputed" - will be resurrected with "the rest of the dead". 

Those who died knowingly unrepentent, resisting the Spirit - will be resurrected at the SC, to face judgment and execution.  (See Daniel 12 1-3).

[JoeMo]

Hi Samie and Rachel,

Does it really matter when our names were wriiten (I ask honestly - not tongue-in-cheek)?  In the end, only those who overcome by the blood of the Lamb will be saved for eternity (whether in this age or the 8th millennium), regardless of when their names were wriiten.

[Samie]

Hi Samie and Rachel,

Does it really matter when our names were wriiten (I ask honestly - not tongue-in-cheek)?  In the end, only those who overcome by the blood of the Lamb will be saved for eternity (whether in this age or the 8th millennium), regardless of when their names were wriiten.

Yes, it matters, Bro. JoeMo.

 

For me, our being written in the book of life from the foundation of the world is the EVIDENCE that:

 

1.  God has chosen us to be His children in Christ before the foundation of the world.

2.  God has saved us by His grace through Christ before time began.

3.  People are saved in the same way BEFORE or AFTER the cross.

4.  God does not show partiality.

5.  We are all citizens of heaven unless blotted out at death for not overcoming evil while alive.

6.  We are all part of the Body of Christ and members of the family of God unless dismembered by Christ Himself.

7.  We preach a grace-based salvation.

 

You yourself can easily, through Scriptures, verify the validity of each of the above.

[JoeMo]

Hi Samie,

I agree with what you just posted.  Thing is, I could apply the most of those points to my assertions.  I would change the first one to  

God has given us the opportunity to be His children in Christ before the foundation of the world.

 

I would change 5 to "We all can be citizens of heaven unless blotted out at death for not overcoming evil while alive; or your name was not found to be written in the book.

 

Otherwise, we agree. And the ultimate outcome is the same.  I think that one way or another, everyone who ever lived will have an opportunity to make an informed, intelligent decision for or against God; and right now I'm inclined to think it's at the second resurrection after the millennium.  

 

I reserve the right to change my mind at any time. I am the chameleon. 

[Samie]

Hi Sis Rachel;

 

How would you know the Mayan king did NOT know it was wrong to kill?

 

Even a small child feels afraid when he hurts a playmate. We have natives living in the mountains in our place; we call them the Mangyans. Would it come as a surprise for you to know that one of their community rules is not to kill people?

 

We all are accountable for what God has written in each of us, individually. The Holy Spirit knows what we are accountable for. He knows the best way to guide us.

 

We all are in the book of life because of Christ. Based on the Tranfiguration account, I am sure Moses & Elijah are assured of salvation but I am not sure whether they exactly knew in their lifetime on earth that the name of the coming Savior will be "Yeshua".  If you can reason out how they were able to enter into a covenant relationship with God, why not apply that same reasoning to others?

[Samie]

Hi JoeMo;

 

You have a good point, my brother.  But if we consult with Scriptures, it says that He has chosen us, NOT given us opportunity to be chosen.

 

As to the "opportunity to make an informed, intelligent decision for or against God" why would Scriptures tell us now is the day of salvation if there would be another opportune day in the 8th millennium?

 

NKJ 2 Corinthians 6:2 For He says: "In an acceptable time I have heard you, And in the day of salvation I have helped you." Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.

[Samie]

Sis Rachel;

 

Scriptures say that the reward for the righteous is eternal life; that of the wicked is the wrath of God - the 7 last plagues. These are to be given when Christ returns.

 

Those who would rebel in the 8th millennium also did not overcome evil in this lifetime, and they are not among those to be resurrected at the 2nd Coming, as you said. What Scriptural basis can you provide why those who rebel in the 8th millennium would be exempt from the 7 last plagues, when the wrath of God is for the rebellious?

[8thdaypriest]

Hi JoeMo;

 

You have a good point, my brother.  But if we consult with Scriptures, it says that He has chosen us, NOT given us opportunity to be chosen.

 

As to the "opportunity to make an informed, intelligent decision for or against God" why would Scriptures tell us now is the day of salvation if there would be another opportune day in the 8th millennium?

 

NKJ 2 Corinthians 6:2 For He says: "In an acceptable time I have heard you, And in the day of salvation I have helped you." Behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.

"Now is the accepted time" FOR those hearing this message.

 

But there are millions of folks who NEVER HEARD the "message of reconciliation".

 

For THEM "the accepted time" will be WHEN they HEAR the message.

The can't hear it today - because they are DEAD.

The will hear it when they are resurrected at the 8th millennium.

[8thdaypriest]

Sis Rachel;

 

Scriptures say that the reward for the righteous is eternal life; that of the wicked is the wrath of God - the 7 last plagues. These are to be given when Christ returns.

 

Those who would rebel in the 8th millennium also did not overcome evil in this lifetime, and they are not among those to be resurrected at the 2nd Coming, as you said. What Scriptural basis can you provide why those who rebel in the 8th millennium would be exempt from the 7 last plagues, when the wrath of God is for the rebellious?

 

God's "wrath" was unleashed several times.  These were NOT the 7 last plagues, but they WERE called God's "wrath".

 

Exodus 22:24 "and My wrath will become hot, and I will kill you with the sword; your wives shall be widows, and your children fatherless." (NKJ)

 

Numbers 11:33 "But while the meat was still between their teeth, before it was chewed, the wrath of the LORD was aroused against the people, and the LORD struck the people with a very great plague." (NKJ)

 

Numbers 16:46 "So Moses said to Aaron, 'Take a censer and put fire in it from the altar, put incense on it, and take it quickly to the congregation and make atonement for them; for wrath has gone out from the LORD. The plague has begun.'" (NKJ)

 

2 Kings 22:17 "`because they have forsaken Me and burned incense to other gods, that they might provoke Me to anger with all the works of their hands. Therefore My wrath shall be aroused against this place and shall not be quenched.'"' (NKJ)

 

2 Chronicles 29:8 "Therefore the wrath of the LORD fell upon Judah and Jerusalem, and He has given them up to trouble, to desolation, and to jeering, as you see with your eyes." (NKJ)

 

ALL sins of ignorance are covered by the blood of Jesus. 

People who did NOT HEAR the call of God, or the message to repent are guilty only of "sins of ignorance".

 

Sin is NOT IMPUTED when there is no law. 

To those who have NEVER HEARD the law, "sin is NOT IMPUTED".  (Romans 5:13)

 

Only when they have been informed do they become guilty of "known" sin.

THEN they can confess their past sins and be forgiven, or resist and be "cut off".  

That was the order of things with the ancient Tabernacle - which is symbolic of Christ and how His death is applied to us.

 

The 7 last plagues CANNOT be poured out upon those who committed only "sins of ignorance".  They are still covered by the blood of Christ.

 

But we must consider the fact that the LORD did punish the families of those who committed KNOWN rebellious sin.

Achen would be an example, and Korah/Nadab/Abihu.  Their families died with them. 

I would apply this at the very end.  The infants and children of the wicked will die WITH them, during the last plagues.

That does not preclude a resurrection of those children at the 8th millennium, so that they can make informed choices concerning the LORD, His law, and His salvation.

 

Concerning the resurrection at the SC,

 

Daniel 12:2 says "many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,

some to everlasting life,

some to shame and everlasting contempt. 

 

If the LORD wanted to say "ALL of those who sleep in the dust"  He would have SAID - ALL.

But He only said "many" - which implies there are "some" who are NOT resurrected on that day.

 

There are 3 groups represented.

 

1.  those "to everlasting life"

2.  those "to shame and everlasting contempt"  [These will be all of the people who HEARD the truth and resisted it, or forsook it.] 

 

3.  "the rest of the dead"  [These did NOT HEAR the truth.  These are NOT resurrected on this day - they remain dead for another 1000 years.  THEN they "live again". (Rev. 20:5)]]

 

Folks have told me that at first, they didn't think my teaching of the 8th day resurrection made sense.  But after studying it over and over, it began to make sense.  Until finally they realized that it made more sense than other theories.  It leaves no "loose pieces" or prophecies unfulfilled. 

 

Respectfully

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

[8thdaypriest]

Hi Sis Rachel;

 

How would you know the Mayan king did NOT know it was wrong to kill?

 

Even a small child feels afraid when he hurts a playmate. We have natives living in the mountains in our place; we call them the Mangyans. Would it come as a surprise for you to know that one of their community rules is not to kill people?

 

We all are accountable for what God has written in each of us, individually. The Holy Spirit knows what we are accountable for. He knows the best way to guide us.

 

We all are in the book of life because of Christ. Based on the Tranfiguration account, I am sure Moses & Elijah are assured of salvation but I am not sure whether they exactly knew in their lifetime on earth that the name of the coming Savior will be "Yeshua".  If you can reason out how they were able to enter into a covenant relationship with God, why not apply that same reasoning to others?

You Samie, seem to be saying that the LORD can just communicate with the mind of an individual, and then base judgment upon that person's response or resistence to that Spirit/mind communication.

 

I agree that the LORD can communicate with our minds. 

But the LORD has set things up so that human beings must be involved (or at least angel messangers) to communicate the "truth".

Hence the command to "go therefore and teach all nations".

 

If judgment could be based solely on the Spirit/mind communication (without any input of information from human or angelic sources)

then there would be no need for missionaries to go and teach anyone. 

 

The New Testament speaks over and over about the need to HEAR the gospel, in order to "be saved".

I've posted several of those verses before.

 

Moses received information directly from the pre-incarnate Son of God.  He SAW the LORD.

Elijah had READ the books of Moses, and knew the Law - so he had received information.

 

Respectfully,

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

[Samie]

"Now is the accepted time" FOR those hearing this message.

 

But there are millions of folks who NEVER HEARD the "message of reconciliation".

 

For THEM "the accepted time" will be WHEN they HEAR the message.

The can't hear it today - because they are DEAD.

The will hear it when they are resurrected at the 8th millennium.

NIV Romans 10:18 But I ask: Did they not hear? Of course they did: "Their voice has gone out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world."

[8thdaypriest]

Yes, it matters, Bro. JoeMo.

 

For me, our being written in the book of life from the foundation of the world is the EVIDENCE that:

 

1.  God has chosen us to be His children in Christ before the foundation of the world.

2.  God has saved us by His grace through Christ before time began.

3.  People are saved in the same way BEFORE or AFTER the cross.

4.  God does not show partiality.

5.  We are all citizens of heaven unless blotted out at death for not overcoming evil while alive.

6.  We are all part of the Body of Christ and members of the family of God unless dismembered by Christ Himself.

7.  We preach a grace-based salvation.

 

You yourself can easily, through Scriptures, verify the validity of each of the above.

 

No Samie,

I CANNOT verify the validity of EACH of your statements.  I do NOT agree with #6.

 

If having ones name "written in the Book" means that one is already in a saved condition - with all sins forgiven,

then it is like everyone is returned to the Garden of Eden - everyone is "in" - once again, UNTIL he/she fails to overcome a temptation (like Eve with the apple).

 

I believe the Bible presents man (since Adam's sin)

as destined for death (as in Adam all die)

as "lost sheep"

as "without God and without hope in the world"

as carnal

as conceived in sin.

 

Which means that infants and children are in this condition as well.

 

In order to be saved and receive eternal life, one must HEAR the message, OPEN the hearts door, BELIEVE and BE BORN AGAIN.

THAT is the formula presented in Scripture.

 

Children and infants and the mentally disablied CANNOT understand the message, therefore they CANNOT "believe" and "be born again". 

They have to "grow up" before they can understand.

That is why they will be resurrected to continue their lives during the 8th millennium - along with "the rest of the dead".

THEN they will HEAR/OPEN/BELIEVE or they will HEAR/RESIST. 

The point is that they have to CHOOSE. 

 

Respectfully

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

[Samie]

Sis Rachel;

 

You said: God's "wrath" was unleashed several times.  These were NOT the 7 last plagues, but they WERE called God's "wrath".

 

You are right. But the COMPLETION of the wrath of God is the 7 last plagues:

 

NKJ Revelation 15:1 Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous: seven angels having the seven last plagues, for in them the wrath of God is complete.

[Samie]

Sis Rachel;

 

You said:

 

Concerning the resurrection at the SC,

 

Daniel 12:2 says "many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,

some to everlasting life,

some to shame and everlasting contempt. 

 

If the LORD wanted to say "ALL of those who sleep in the dust"  He would have SAID - ALL.

But He only said "many" - which implies there are "some" who are NOT resurrected on that day.

 

Our Lord Himself said "All". Here:

 

NIV John 5:28-29   28 "Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when All who are in their graves will hear his voice  29 and come out-

[Samie]

Sis Rachel;
 

No Samie,

I CANNOT verify the validity of EACH of your statements.  I do NOT agree with #6.

 

#6.  We are all part of the Body of Christ and members of the family of God unless dismembered by Christ Himself.

Here's Scripture that validates #6:

Ephesians 2:

14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 

15 by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, 

16 and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 

17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 

18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit. 

19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household

 

[LifeHiscost]

 

In order to be saved and receive eternal life, one must HEAR the message, OPEN the hearts door, BELIEVE and BE BORN AGAIN.

THAT is the formula presented in Scripture.

 

Children and infants and the mentally disablied CANNOT understand the message, therefore they CANNOT "believe" and "be born again". 

The point is that they have to CHOOSE. 

 

Respectfully

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

That appears to be inconsistent with God's grace and mercy  afforded those that have not had all the benefits of those with healthy beginnings, even those aborted, which amounts to:

 

www.mccl.org/us-abortion-statistics.html

The latest available abortion statistics show that the abortion rate is falling across the United States, there are still over 1 million abortions each year.

 

The person who sins is the one who will die. The child will not be punished for the parents sins, and the parent will not be punished for the child's sins. Ezek 18:20 NLT

 

"Father forgive them, for they know not what they are doing."  Luke 23:24

 

These are quotes out of context. However the principles are always the same.

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[LifeHiscost]

Luke 10:20 “Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rather rejoice because your names are written in heaven.”

Why rejoice - if your name was entered into the Book of Life at the moment of your birth, along with every other human being? The presence of your name - in the book - would be nothing special. This is why I believe that our names are entered into The Book of Life when we enter into covenant with God, thru Christ.

Philippians 4:3 “And I urge you also, true companion, help these women who labored with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the Book of Life.”

Here Paul uses space and ink (very precious in His day) to state that the names of those who labored with him, to spread the gospel “are in The Book of Life.” Why mention that - if everyone's name is written there - even if they are wicked (at least UNTIL they die).

Saying that their names are in The Book of Life, is the same as saying “these belong to Christ.”

It is acceptable for one to assume, even with good logic. However that would not be reason enough to establish it as fact. Since it seems not to be a salvational issue, it would seem to me, to encourage one to think that which is most encouraging to the individual re: how the prerogatives of God are applied, would reveal our love for our brother or sister in the faith.

 

Rejoice in the Lord always. I will say it again: rejoice. Phil 4:4

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[JoeMo]

Bro Samie,

In many of the scriptures you quote, the writers are speaking to the church; not to humanity in general. I infer from that that they were speaking of the condition of those who had already accepted God's invitation to be saved.  Much of the speaking done to the general populace was admonition to surrender to the grace of Christ and be saved.

Like LHC said; it is not a salvational issue.  Like I said, both scenarios end the same - those who really want to be in the Kingdom will be there.  God's will be done!  Praise Him for His mercy, kindness, and grace!

[8thdaypriest]

Quote

No Samie,

I CANNOT verify the validity of EACH of your statements.  I do NOT agree with #6.

 

#6.  We are all part of the Body of Christ and members of the family of God unless dismembered by Christ Himself.

Here's Scripture that validates #6:

Quote

Ephesians 2:

14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 

15 by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, 

16 and in this one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 

17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 

18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit. 

19 Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but fellow citizens with God's people and members of God's household

 

Bro. Samie,

The Scripture quoted - Ephesians 2:14-16 does NOT validate #6.  This message was written TO THOSE ALREADY "IN CHRIST", (those who heard and believed and were baptized) 

not to the general population of Ephesus. 

 

The wording suggests TWO different conditions.

1. "foreigners and aliens

2.  "fellow citizens with God's people" - "member of God's household"

 

If - as you say - all of humanity has always been "in Christ" and have always been "members of God's household",

then no former condition would have been described - that is "foreigners and aliens".

 

The passage itself tells us that there was a time when those to whom the letter was written,

changed from "foreigners and aliens"

to "fellow citizens".

 

What was that time?

It was WHEN they HEARD the message, BELIEVED the message, OPENED their hearts door, and were BAPTIZED in the name of Christ.

 

Respectfully,

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

[8thdaypriest]

Sis Rachel;

 

You said:

Quote

 

Concerning the resurrection at the SC,

 

Daniel 12:2 says "many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,

some to everlasting life,

some to shame and everlasting contempt. 

 

If the LORD wanted to say "ALL of those who sleep in the dust"  He would have SAID - ALL.

But He only said "many" - which implies there are "some" who are NOT resurrected on that day.

 

Samie:

Our Lord Himself said "All". Here:

 

NIV John 5:28-29   28 "Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when All who are in their graves will hear his voice  29 and come out-    [end quote Samie]

 

Rachel responds:

 

IN CONTEXT, Jesus was speaking to Jews (Israelites) in John 5:28-29.

Once again - He is not speaking to humanity in general.  He is speaking to a specific group - Israelites (That is those who are in covenant, including all "grafted-in" Gentile believers.) 

 

All Israelites will come forth from their graves at the SC. 

All Israelites will be judged on THAT DAY, because the SC is Yom Kippur - Judgment Day.

Those who have persisted in rebellion, without repentence, will be "cut off".  They will rise to "everlasting condemnation".

 

"The nations" were NOT JUDGED on Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement). 

They were "covered" by the morning/evening continual burnt offering.  Their sins were those of ignorance, not those of rebellion. 

The "continual" was continued on Yom Kippur.  It did NOT STOP because it was Yom Kippur.  (THAT should tell us something.)

 

ONLY ISRAELITES, and "mixed multitude" were judged on Yom Kippur.

 

"The nations" consist of the uninformed - those who have never heard the "call" or the "message".

 

Included in those who have "HEARD" would be foreigners such as Pharoah, Nineveh, etc., and all Gentiles who HEARD.

These will be treated like those of the "mixed multitude" who HEARD the LORD from Mt. Sinai.

Some accepted the LORD and were/are grafted in to Israel.  Others rejected the LORD, and will be judged and destroyed at the SC.

 

Only three men who left Egypt, survived the wilderness wandering:

Caleb - who was a descendant of Esau and member of the mixed multitude.  He became an Israelite - grafted in - to the tribe of Judah. (He represents Gentiles "grafted-in".)

Joshua - who was of the tribe of Ephraim - the largest tribe of Israel.

Eleazar - who became high priest after the death of Aaron. (He represents Jesus, who became our high priest at the "death" of the Aaronic priesthood.)

 

Respectfully,

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

[Samie]

Bro Samie,

In many of the scriptures you quote, the writers are speaking to the church; not to humanity in general. I infer from that that they were speaking of the condition of those who had already accepted God's invitation to be saved.  Much of the speaking done to the general populace was admonition to surrender to the grace of Christ and be saved.

Like LHC said; it is not a salvational issue.  Like I said, both scenarios end the same - those who really want to be in the Kingdom will be there.  God's will be done!  Praise Him for His mercy, kindness, and grace!

Hi Bro. JoeMo;

 

Yes, you are right. They are speaking to the Church. And the Church is the Body of Christ.

 

In Eph 1:3 - 6, Paul spoke of those who were CHOSEN before the foundation of the world.  These CHOSEN were fashioned into the Body of Christ on the cross (Eph 2:11 - 15). The objective is: TO RECONCILE them to God (v16), which tells us that PRIOR to being RECONCILED, the CHOSEN were already part of the Body of Christ which is the Church (Eph 5:23; Col 1:18).

 

Since there is no PARTIALITY with God (Eph 6:9), would He have EXCLUDED me? My answer to my own question is No, because I believe there is no partiality with God. Now, try to imagine Adam & Eve and all their descendants to be asking this same question. Who will answer Yes?  Correct, those who don't believe there is no partiality with God.

 

But my being chosen, my being part of the Body of Christ, my being reconciled to God, do not in any way DISABLES my freedom of choice. I can choose whether to OVERCOME evil or not (Rom 12:21). And only OVERCOMERS will NOT be blotted out from the Book of Life (Rev 3:5).

 

Why is this important to me? Because I believe this is part of the gospel that our Savior said MUST be preached before His return.  And the brand of gospel popularly preached does NOT include this yet.

[Samie]

Quote

 

#6.  We are all part of the Body of Christ and members of the family of God unless dismembered by Christ Himself.

Here's Scripture that validates #6:

Quote

 

Bro. Samie,

The Scripture quoted - Ephesians 2:14-16 does NOT validate #6.  This message was written TO THOSE ALREADY "IN CHRIST", (those who heard and believed and were baptized) 

not to the general population of Ephesus. 

 

The wording suggests TWO different conditions.

1. "foreigners and aliens

2.  "fellow citizens with God's people" - "member of God's household"

 

If - as you say - all of humanity has always been "in Christ" and have always been "members of God's household",

then no former condition would have been described - that is "foreigners and aliens".

 

The passage itself tells us that there was a time when those to whom the letter was written,

changed from "foreigners and aliens"

to "fellow citizens".

 

What was that time?

It was WHEN they HEARD the message, BELIEVED the message, OPENED their hearts door, and were BAPTIZED in the name of Christ.

 

Respectfully,

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

Hi Sis Rachel;

 

UNLESS our Savior DIED, we ALL - Adam & Eve and all their descendants - remained "foreigners and aliens".

 

As in my post to Bro JoeMo, the CHOSEN's being in the Church PRECEDES their being RECONCILED. They were already in the Church WITHOUT an iota of participation from them. Please see Eph 2:11-16; Rom 5:10).

[Samie]

Hi Sis Rachel;

 

You said:

IN CONTEXT, Jesus was speaking to Jews (Israelites) in John 5:28-29.

Once again - He is not speaking to humanity in general.  He is speaking to a specific group - Israelites (That is those who are in covenant, including all "grafted-in" Gentile believers.)

 

Do these words of Jesus apply to us:

KJV John 5:23 That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.  24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

If Yes, why would His words 4 verses later, only apply to the Jews?

 

And I am interested in knowing your Scriptural basis for saying this:

Caleb - who was a descendant of Esau and member of the mixed multitude.  He became an Israelite - grafted in - to the tribe of Judah. (He represents Gentiles "grafted-in".)

 

[8thdaypriest]

Re: Esau

 

Called a Kenizzite

Kenaz - Chieftan of Edomite clan

Edomites were descendants of Esau

 

Look up Eliphaz

 

Caleb would be great grandson of Esau

 

Num. 32:12

Josh 14:6,14

Gen. 15:19,17

Josh 14:14

Num 13:6

Gen 36:4,11,15

I Chron 1:36

I Chron 4:15

[Samie]

Hi Sis Rachel;

 

I believe you have a point that Caleb descended from Esau.

 

Thanks.