Lucifer's system of love

[Robert]

Read the following statement and then please take the above poll:

 

"Using man as his tool, Satan has developed a kingdom (the Bible refers to it as “the kingdom of this world”) that is based entirely on the principle of self and which is in complete opposition and contradiction to the “kingdom of heaven.”  Everything, therefore, that goes to make up this worldly system (kosmos) — nationalism, tribalism, politics, education, commerce, recreation, sports, social clubs, technology, etc. — is founded upon the principle of love of self, even though at times this principle may not be obvious.  According to 1 John 2:16, “all that is in the world” (i.e., without exception) is based or founded upon lust (i.e., love of self)." J. Sequeira (Full context: http://www.jacksequeira.org/dyunit01.htm )

[Robert]

 "According to 1 John 2:16, “all that is in the world” (i.e., without exception) is based or founded upon lust (i.e., love of self)."

 

 

Can I use the Bible and Ellen White to prove this assumption? I believe so.

 

First, 1 Cor 10:24 "Let no man seek his own (wealth), but every man another's wealth."

 

Ellen White:

 

 "...there will be no rivalry, no self-seeking, no desire for the highest place. You will have that love which seeks not her own (wealth), but another's wealth." (DA 48)

 

"In Heaven none will think of self, nor seek their own pleasure; but all, from pure, genuine love (i.e., agape), will seek the happiness of the heavenly beings around them." (Testimony for the Church # 16)

 

Now let's look at an example.  

 

1 Cor 13:3 "If I give all I possess to the poor ... , but have not love (agape), I gain nothing. 4 Love (agape) ... is not self-seeking."

 

Can you image a rich man giving all his billions to the poor?  I can't!  

 

Even if one did, if not done from agape it is meaningless in heaven's eyes. Why? The motive must be pure!

 

Evidence?

 

Let's go to Matthew 6:1 "Be careful not to do your 'acts of righteousness' before men, to be seen by them. If you do, you will have no reward from your Father in heaven. 2 "So when you give to the needy, do not announce it with trumpets, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and on the streets, to be honored by men. I tell you the truth, they have received their reward in full. 3 But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4 so that your giving may be in secret. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you."

 

Without Christ, states the Bible, "you can do nothing", that is, nothing good.  

 

If a rich man gave all his wealth to the poor, but used his notoriety to make gains in other areas, then he hasn't  done his deed in secret.  Instead he has used it to bring glory to himself.  That's sin!

 

So sin is anything outside God's agape love.

[Robert]

Okay, those who voted "no" or who do not agree, please give me some feedback....

[LifeHiscost]

 

So sin is anything outside God's agape love.

 

When one has to give long dissertations to identify what they mean, it's always good to refer to that which made them draw that conclusion.

 

Agape

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

For other uses, see Agape (disambiguation).

Agape (/ˈæɡəpiː/^[1] or /ˈæɡəpɪ/;^[2]Classical Greek: ἀγάπη, agápē; Modern Greek: αγάπη IPA: [aˈɣapi]), which means "love: esp. brotherly love, charity; the love of God for man and of man for God."^[3] The noun form first occurs in the Septuagint, but the verb form goes as far back as Homer, translated literally as affection, as in "greet with affection" and "show affection for the dead."^[4] Other ancient authors have used forms of the word to denote love of a spouse or family, or affection for a particular activity, in contrast to philia (an affection that could denote friendship, brotherhood or generally non-sexual affection) and eros, an affection of a sexual nature.

Agape became appropriated in Christian theology as the love of God or Christ for humankind. In the New Testament, it refers to the covenant love of God for humans, as well as the human reciprocal love for God; the term necessarily extends to the love of one's fellow man.^[5] Although the word does not have a specific religious connotation, it has been used by a variety of contemporary and ancient sources, including biblical authors and Christian authors. Thomas Jay Oord has defined agape as "an intentional response to promote well-being when responding to that which has generated ill-being."^[6]

 

^OTOH

 

…6"But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. 7"But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. 8"And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;…John 16

 

The question for some then would seem to be, has Jesus fulfilled His promise to you?

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[LifeHiscost]

Okay, those who voted "no" or who do not agree, please give me some feedback....

15Do not love the world nor the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh and the lust of the eyes and the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world. 17The world is passing away, and also its lusts; but the one who does the will of God lives forever. John 2:16

 

OTOH;

 

…6"But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. 7"But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. 8"And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment;…John 16

 

The question then would seem to be, has Jesus fulfilled His promise?

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[Tom Wetmore]

Okay, those who voted "no" or who do not agree, please give me some feedback....

 

Maybe it is the way the question is phrased.  Use of absolutes, i.e., "everything" suggests a pretty all-inclusive category for anything in this world.  Not much left out it would seem.  That would tend to exclude the possibility of altruism, etc.,  as even possible. It also puts all things touched by mankind as suspect and evil beyond hope.  It also seems to exclude divine involvement in mankind's activities, systems and organizations or the possibility of redemption from all that is corrupted.

 

I have a theory that the state of things of this earth are that there is nothing that is absolutely evil, without a molecule of goodness, nor anything absolutely pure and holy, without a molecule of badness.   Call it a yin/yang sort of notion, but we all have good and bad in us, as does everything in this world.  It is also true that seldom do you find balance between the two in anything.  Somethings have far more of one than the other, but never completely excluding the opposite.  I believe that evil left unchecked, destroys and that which is absolutely 100% evil would self destruct. 

[LifeHiscost]

 

 

I have a theory that the state of things of this earth are that there is nothing that is absolutely evil

I suppose that would be true until the last roll call and the last trump has sounded.

 

20The LORD keeps all who love Him, But all the wicked He will destroy. Psalms 145

 

52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. 55O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? 56The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law. 57But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Cor 15

God is Love! Jesus saves! 

[Robert]

When one has to give long dissertations to identify what they mean, it's always good to refer to that which made them draw that conclusion.

 

Agape

 

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yes, and the folks who wrote their view of agape in Wikipedia haven't a clue.  Agape is the very opposite of self-love.  Hence agape has no "self" in it.

[Robert]

...we all have good and bad in us, as does everything in this world. 

 

 

What's your...cancel that...what's the Bible's definition of "good"?

[Gerr]

Okay, those who voted "no" or who do not agree, please give me some feedback...

I thought we've beaten this horse to death before!!!

[Robert]

.... for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality

 

Clearly we must be changed. That would imply we are unfit for heaven this side of eternity.  

[Robert]

I thought we've beaten this horse to death before!!!

 

The horse ain't dead....    yet....

[Tom Wetmore]

What's your...cancel that...what's the Bible's definition of "good"?

 

The first thing that popped into my mind was Jesus response to the one who addressed him as "Good Master".  Jesus said, "Why do you call me 'good'?  None is good but God."  Seems odd come out of Jesus' mouth doesn't it?  But then the Bible refers to many things and people as being "good".  So I would say, it depends on the context.

[Robert]

What's your...cancel that...what's the Bible's definition of "good"?

 

The summation of the law:

 

"You shall love your neighbor as you love yourself." See Gal 5:14

 

Hence Paul calls "the law" righteous, good and holy.  See Romans 7:13

 

Now, is mankind naturally "good"?  I'm not speaking from men's point of view, but God's?

 

Here's Paul:

 

Romans 3:10 "There is no one righteous, not even one; ...12 there is no one who does good, not even one."

 

Here's Christ:

 

Matt 19:17 "No one is good but One, that is, God."

 

Are believers good?

 

Romans 7:18 "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells."

 

Perhaps this is why Jesus said, "without Me you can do nothing", nothing good, that is.

[Robert]

The first thing that popped into my mind was Jesus response to the one who addressed him as "Good Master".  Jesus said, "Why do you call me 'good'?  None is good but God."  Seems odd come out of Jesus' mouth doesn't it?  But then the Bible refers to many things and people as being "good".  So I would say, it depends on the context.

The rich young ruler thought Jesus to be a teacher of the law. (BTW, EGW agrees) Hence the RYR addressed Christ as a mere man and not the Son of the Living God. It was from this point of reference that Christ responded, "No one is good...."

[Robert]

 

Gerry....

 

My argument here is not that men & women, who are walking in the Spirit, cannot reflect Christ, but that mankind is void of the key ingredient that makes it possible to keep the law.  That ingredient is agape.  Mankind is born with only self-love or iniquity, not agape.

[Robert]

The rich young ruler thought Jesus to be a teacher of the law. (BTW, EGW agrees) Hence the RYR addressed Christ as a mere man and not the Son of the Living God. It was from this point of reference that Christ responded, "No one is good...."

 

Ellen White: "The ruler had addressed Christ merely as an honored rabbi, not discerning in Him the Son of God." COL chapter 28

[LifeHiscost]

The horse ain't dead....    yet....

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[Robert]

Maybe it is the way the question is phrased.  Use of absolutes, i.e., "everything" suggests a pretty all-inclusive category for anything in this world.

 

 

All I can do is reference Jack's quote:

 

"....Satan has developed a kingdom (the Bible refers to it as “the kingdom of this world”) that is based entirely on the principle of self and which is in complete opposition and contradiction to the “kingdom of heaven.”  Everything, therefore, that goes to make up this worldly system (kosmos) — nationalism, tribalism, politics, education, commerce, recreation, sports, social clubs, technology, etc. — is founded upon the principle of love of self, even though at times this principle may not be obvious."

 

"The world" is a phrase used in the Bible to denote Satan's kingdom.  Keep in mind Satan is "the lord of this world" according to both Jesus & Paul.  The Christian church is not part of this world.  Hence it is in enemy territory. But even the Christian church is not exempt of "the world" within its doors.  I'm sure you've read Ellen where she writes of "the world in the church"?

[Robert]

Gerry....

 

Mankind is born with only self-love or iniquity, not agape.

 That's why Jesus said "you must be born again".  Our natural birth can only produce self-love.  When we receive Christ then the Spirit of God comes and dwells in our spirit and as we learn to walk in the Spirit, He works in us to reflect God's agape love.  Hence the ingredient is within the Holy Spirit. He brings within the believer's reach the agape love of God. 

 

So of our selves we are void of agape. That's why the converted Paul stated, "I know nothing good dwells in me".  Here Paul is speaking his humanity void of agape love.

 

Now, this seems to contradict a statement of Ellen White:

"The Fall defaced the image of God in which man was made; we say, defaced; it did not totally obliterate or extinguish it." [History of Protestantism vol 2, p 403]

This statement makes it sound like something in us is good.  Well, let's think it out.

 

At creation Adam was made in the image and likeness of God.  Since God is Spirit and we are flesh & blood, this reference means that Adam perfectly reflected God's agape love, a love that is not self-seeking.

 

At the fall God's agape did not become obliterated, but rather this agape became bent-back to Adam.  The Bible calls this u-turn agape, iniquity. The modern terminology for iniquity is self-love.  

 

So yes, God's love has not been obliterated, rather it has been perverted.  

[Robert]

At the fall God's agape did not become obliterated, but rather this agape became bent-back to Adam.  The Bible calls this u-turn agape, iniquity. The modern terminology for iniquity is self-love.  

 

That's why the moral law demands that we take our self-love and bend it-outward towards others instead of ourselves. Hence "you shall love your neighbor as you love yourself".  

 

Self-love is not a demand - it is a condition.  We are born spiritually bent-to-self.  The law demands that we take this self-love, bend-it-out and agape our neighbors as we naturally, sinfully love ourselves.

 

Perhaps that is why Paul said, "Therefore by the works of the law no flesh (human) will be justified in His sight, (why?) for by the law is the knowledge of sin (iniquity)." Rom 3:20

 

Hence the law was never given as a means of salvation, but rather it was given to expose our sin problem & make matters worse.  

 

I know..you need evidence?

 

Romans 5:20 "The law was added so that the trespass might increase."

 

Romans 11:32 "For God hath shut up all unto disobedience (transgression), that he might have mercy upon all."

 

The law was given to show us our condition so that we might flee to Christ and be justified by faith.  Now that we have been justified by faith we are no longer under the law. See Gal 3:24,25

 

Does this mean I can live like a devil?  

 

No!

 

Neither does it mean I'm living Christ's life.

 

I am simply growing in grace while perfect in the doing & dying of Christ. 

[Robert]

... is mankind naturally "good"?  I'm not speaking from men's point of view, but God's?

Paul says that as "touching the righteousness which is in the law"--as far as outward acts were concerned --he was "blameless" (Philippians 3:6); but when the spiritual character of the law was discerned, he saw himself a sinner. Judged by the letter of the law as men apply it to the outward life, he had abstained from sin; but when he looked into the depths of its holy precepts, and saw himself as God saw him, he bowed in humiliation and confessed his guilt.  [sC chapter 3, pages 29,30]

 

You see men judge by outward actions, but God's law judges both the outward actions and the motives and intents of these acts.  

 

The Pharisees were religious men dedicated to the keeping of the Torah.  Outwardly they had ceased from sin, but according to Jesus everything they did outwardly was for their own personal gain.  

 

Writing of the Pharisees, Ellen white wrote:

 

"While they (the Pharisees) claimed to be very jealous for the honor of the law, self-glory was the real object which they sought; and Christ would make it manifest to them that the lover of self is a transgressor of the law. But the principles cherished by the Pharisees are such as are characteristic of humanity in all ages. The spirit of Pharisaism is the spirit of human nature....In the days of Christ the Pharisees were continually trying to earn the favor of Heaven in order to secure the worldly honor and prosperity which they regarded as the reward of virtue. At the same time they paraded their acts of charity before the people in order to attract their attention and gain a reputation for sanctity." [MB pages 79]

 

Did you get what EGW stated?  "The spirit of Pharisaism is the spirit of human nature"!  In other words the Pharisees used the religion card to bring them worldly honor and wealth.

 

Is that keeping the law or is it keeping sin?

 

Answer:  "The lover of self is a transgressor of the law". 

 

Why?

 

Because God's law demands not only that your outward actions be correct, but that the motives behind them must be unselfish.  The only ingredient that makes our motives unselfish is God's agape and that we do not have by birth.  

 

Only as we rest in Christ's finished work can we begin to experience such love.

 

Therefore everything that mankind does, without Christ, is polluted with self-love.

[Robert]

Iniquity

 

The root meaning of this word is “to be bent.”  As used in Scripture it refers to our spiritual condition.  Note the following texts:

• Psalm 51:5.  David was “shapen in iniquity” from his very birth.  This was his spiritual condition since physically he was handsome [1 Samuel 16:12].  The primary meaning of iniquity is not an act but a condition. As a result of the fall, man by very nature is spiritually “bent,” so that the driving force of his very nature is love of self. Paul defines it as “the law of sin and death” [Romans 7:23; 8:2].  It is this condition that is the basis of all our sinning, and which makes us slaves to sin [Romans 3:9-12; 7:14].

   

• Isaiah 53:6.  Two things are revealed in this text.  1. Everyone of us has gone astray, since we have all turned or bent “to his own way.”  2. This own-way-ness (i.e., self-centeredness) is synonymous with iniquity, which was laid upon Christ our sin bearer; and it was this “sin in the flesh” that Christ “condemned” on the cross [Romans 8:2-3].

   

  Iniquity, therefore, is simply seeking our own way, a condition we are born with and which (without a Saviour) makes it impossible to do genuine righteousness, since the law of God requires even our motives to be pure [Matthew 5:20-22, 27-28].  In contrast to iniquity or self-seeking is agape (divine love) which is of God and which “seeketh not her own” [1 Corinthians 13:5].  Our next study will cover this in greater detail.

 

• Isaiah 64:6.  Because man by nature is “shapen in iniquity,” all the righteousness produced by him through his own efforts is like filthy rags before God, because it is polluted with self-love.  According to Zech. 3:3, 4, “filthy garments” are equated with iniquity. In contrast to these filthy garments of ours (self-righteousness), the white raiment of Christ (His righteousness) is offered to the Laodicean church so that they may be truly clothed, and “the shame of [their] nakedness do not appear” before the judgment seat of God [Revelation 3:18; 10:3-4].

   

• Matthew 7:22, 23.  Self-righteous acts camouflaged or disguised in the name of Christ are exposed in the judgment and clearly identified as works of iniquity (i.e., works motivated by self-love).  All Christians must consider this text seriously.  Do our works originate from Christ and therefore motivated by agape, or are they the “fair shew in the flesh” [Galatians 6:12]?  Are our works the result of a genuine relationship with Christ (i.e, works of faith) or are we working in His name but we really don’t know Him?  [see also Luke 13:25-28.]

   

• Philippians 3:3-9.  The converted Paul recognizes the worthlessness of his self-righteousness and willingly exchanges it for the righteousness of Christ which is by faith.

This is from Jack's website:  http://www.jacksequeira.org/dyunit01.htm

[M. T. Cross]

I thought we've beaten this horse to death before!!!

It reincarnated

[CoAspen]

(MT, where you been?)

 

Reincarnated or an awful lot of self doubt being dealt with!!!