Lucifer's system of love

[M. T. Cross]

I have been having my brain turned into mush with the amount of information being put in it LOL

[M. T. Cross]

Here is my issue with this whole "self" thing.

 

Biblically speaking, you believe that God gives you life. One life, you do not reincarnate, transmigrate or any other of the ates....... you are a unique and special snowflake. So in essence you believe that God created your identity, your unique identity. That is your "self". So my question to you Robert would be why are you so hell bent on destroying a gift from the being you believe to be your creator.

 

Like anything else it can used for something good or for something wrong. That comes down to accountability and honesty, by looking at that gift and asking yourself if you are using it in the most constructive way possible. If not - make a change.

[8thdaypriest]

IMO: We will need a thousand years (after the resurrection) before our defensive and self-preserving thought habits will be healed.  We are ALL suffering from post traumatic stress.  It's called living - in this world.  Every one of us has been slighted, or rejected, or manipulated, or abused in some way - many times by Christians (so called).   The healing will take time.

 

I do NOT believe that our minds will be changed in an instant.  Only our bodies.  God does NOT manipulate minds.  He changes them slowly - by presenting evidence, and His truth.  If He was going to instantly change our thinking (our minds) then He should have done that in the first place - with Adam and Eve, and skipped this whole mess!!

 

Much of our selfishness comes out because we live in flesh.  We get tired.  We get hungry.  We get cold, or too warm. (We want air-conditioning.)  We get headaches, or backaches, or aching feet.  We have trouble sleeping, etc. etc. etc.  We worry that we will not have those things we feel we "need" in order for our flesh to remain comfortable.  We then horde our money (or stuff).   Just having immortal flesh that does not feel physical pain, will free us from A LOT.   But it will NOT solve everything. 

 

When I consider myself only - I know that I am still carnal (selfish).  But I cling to the promise that I will one day be "like Him". 

It is only thru the indwelling - "Christ in me" - that I exhibit ANY "agape". 

 

My husband was baptized some 8 years after my conversion experience.  I asked him, the day he was baptized, what made him finally come to believe and want to commit.  He did not hesitate for a second.  "The change in you," he said.  "I fell in love with you, but you were really not a very nice person.  But you've changed.  And that was a miracle." 

 

All the glory goes to God our Father, and Christ His Son.

 

Respectfully,

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

[JoeMo]

Robert says: "Therefore everything that mankind does, without Christ, is polluted with self-love." 

Like Tom, I have trouble with the word "everything.  Some stuff is neutral - like driving to work or filling out my time sheet or cooking supper.  Yes, some stuff is done out of self-love; even stuff I do for Jesus.  "Ooohh, if I hold a Bible study Jesus will love me more" (wrong assumption)  "Oohh, I didn't yield to that temptation - Jesus must be happy!" (Wrong - He's always happy).

 

M.T. says "So in essence you believe that God created your identity, your unique identity. That is your "self";

I say "Amen".  Funny how a heretical pagan can have so much spiritual insight.  My "self" - my free will, my intellect, my spirit - is a precious gift.  I can use it to my benefit or my demise - my choice.  I can use it for my own good or the good of others - sometimes it's the same thing.  I became a believer cuz I wasn't doing a very good job of managing self  - I felt like I needed a savior for self preservation.  So, according to Robert, my very conversion was polluted with self-love.

 

I may be polluted with self love, (I may even be a spiritual pollution super-fund site); but God is the best pollution clean-up and control device in the universe.

 

Guess what - I still love me.  I'm one of my favorite people.  God loves me, too.  Sometimes when I do things that look like they're just for me, I am unconsiously doing what God is directing me to do.  Ain't that something!  God can take my selfish motives and turn them for His good!  That's what I call pollution control!

[fccool]

I have a theory that the state of things of this earth are that there is nothing that is absolutely evil, without a molecule of goodness, nor anything absolutely pure and holy, without a molecule of badness.   Call it a yin/yang sort of notion, but we all have good and bad in us, as does everything in this world.  It is also true that seldom do you find balance between the two in anything.  Somethings have far more of one than the other, but never completely excluding the opposite.  I believe that evil left unchecked, destroys and that which is absolutely 100% evil would self destruct.

 

 

  I tend to agree.

 

  To say something is "evil" is really missing the point of what Good and evil is... it's a subjective judgement.   For example, it's wrong to give chocolate to a dog, as it will kill it.   We can't universally say that "chocolate is evil", or that "eating chocolate is evil and selfish".

 

  Likewise, there's this idea that everything self-fulfilling, and self-related is someone "evil".   The only way we can experience this world is through conscious self.  There's no other meaningful way really.   For example, there are lobotomized patients who experience this world rather mechanically, and not consciously, with their "self" removed.  I wouldn't call them "self-less".

 

  Likewise, self-love is a good thing.   You can't love other people if you don't love self first.   There's a difference between love and conceit.   

 

   The only way you can be "self-less" in this world is by experiencing it through self, which is rather paradoxical, but that's how we relate to other people.   Taking care of self is only evil when it's via a grand detriment to everyone else. 

[LifeHiscost]

  I tend to agree.

 

  To say something is "evil" is really missing the point of what Good and evil is...

 

   The only way you can be "self-less" in this world is by experiencing it through self

21For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain. Philippians 1

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[Robert]

If you really love your neighbor as yourself, then give all your possessions to your neighbor.  That's agape.

[Gregory Matthews]

No.  That sounds like self-hatred.

 

To love someone as yourself does not mean that you give what you need to one who does not need it. 

 

Agape love may involve giving what you need to one who also needs it but it does not require you to provide another what they do not need when you do need it.  It may not require one to give to another what will  not be used to meet their need.  E.G.  I am not be required to give money to a person who I know intends to purchase a gun which will be used to kill someone. 

[joeb]

I have to laugh at the text you quoted, Robert, to try to explain your position that agape is totally without any self love.   Jesus said, love your neighbor as you love yourself.  He doesn't say, love your neighbor but not yourself.  The law requires us to treat others according to the Golden Rule, which Jesus says says in Matthew 7:12 sums up the law and prophets.  Jesus once again here doesn't say we are not to love ourselves but to treat others the way we want to be treated.  

 

Your position requires you to contradict Jesus Himself.  As He wrote the law He knows exactly what it means, and He doesn't agree with your interpretation of things.  

[Robert]

No.  That sounds like self-hatred.

 

 

Then Jesus hated Himself because He took our curse.  He was willing to lay down His life forever (that's the curse) so that His enemies might take His place.  Jesus was willingly to die forever so we might take His place.  That's agape love....What we have is self-love.....

[Robert]

I have to laugh at the text you quoted, Robert, to try to explain your position that agape is totally without any self love.   Jesus said, love your neighbor as you love yourself.  He doesn't say, love your neighbor but not yourself. 

 

 

Your a smart guy, right?  How many commands are in "you shall love your neighbor as your love yourself"?

 

One, or two?

 

Be careful with your answer.

 

Self-love is not a command.  We already love self.  We are born with iniquity (our bent-to-self).

 

We are to take our self-love, bend it out, and love our neighbors.  That's what the law demands.

 

The expression is best summed in the following:  

 

1 Cor 10:24 "Let no man seek his own, but every man another's wealth."

 

Notice, we aren't to seek our own wealth  (which is self-seeking) but "another's wealth".  In return your neighbors make sure you prosper.  That's heaven's way.  

 

Ellen White:  "In Heaven none will think of self, nor seek their own pleasure; but all, from pure, genuine love (agape), will seek the happiness of the heavenly beings around them."

 

What we have on this earth is self-love.  It's based on Lucifer's system, not God's!

[Robert]

Then Jesus hated Himself because He took our curse.  He was willing to lay down His life forever (that's the curse) so that His enemies might take His place.  Jesus was willingly to die forever so we might take His place.  That's agape love....What we have is self-love.....

“The temptation that Christ experienced can never be fully understood by men.... The withdrawal of the Divine Countenance from the Savior in this hour of supreme anguish pierced His heart with a sorrow that can never be fully understood by man.” Ibid.

 

Do you know why? Because there has been no human being in this world who has really, fully, experienced the wrath of God as Christ did. He is the only man who has experienced the fullness of God-abandonment, which is the equivalent of the second death. Christ was tempted to come down from the cross and save Himself. Can you understand the temptation? The issue He faced was not to screw up His will power and say, “I’ll hold on for a few hours or for three days.” That is no sacrifice for a God who lives in eternity. The issue was good-bye to life forever, never again to see His Father, never again to go back to heaven. It meant to give up His glory, to give up His life. That was the issue. That is the curse of God.

 

As He hung on the cross experiencing God’s curse for our sins, Jesus had to make a choice. He could not save Himself and the world at the same time. And He did make the supreme choice. He chose to die eternally that you and I may live in His place. That is what transformed the disciples. They were so shocked! They had not understood such love before as this. It is this concept of agape that turned the world upsidedown, that God not only came down for thirty-three years, but Jesus their Savior was willing to say good-bye to life forever that they may live in His place. “But God demonstrated His love that while we were still sinners Christ died for us” (Romans 5:8).

 

In other words, the supreme sacrifice is that Jesus was willing to accept our curse and give us His life in exchange. It was not a question of saving Himself and the world. He could not do that. He had to make a choice between the world and Himself. Do you know what Christ was saying on the cross? I hope you will never forget this; He was saying that He loves us more than Himself. That is God’s agape.   [Jack Sequeira]

[Robert]

Your a smart guy, right?  How many commands are in "you shall love your neighbor as your love yourself"?

 

One, or two?

 

Be careful with your answer.

 

Self-love is not a command.  We already love self.  We are born with iniquity (our bent-to-self).

 

 

Gal 5:14 The whole law is made complete in this one command: "Love your neighbor as you love yourself." 

 

The text does not say, "Love your neighbor and love yourself." That would be two commands.

[Robert]

Gal 5:14 The whole law is made complete in this one command: "Love your neighbor as you love yourself." 

 

The text does not say, "Love your neighbor and love yourself." That would be two commands.

 

This is made abundantly clear in the following:

 

Matt 19:17 Jesus to the young, rich man:  "If you want to enter life, obey the commandments." 

 

18 "Which ones?" the man inquired. Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony,19 honor your father and mother,' and 'love your neighbor as you love yourself.'" 

 

20 "All these I have kept," the young man said. "What do I still lack?" 

 

21 Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor...."

 

That's loving your neighbor in the same way you love yourself.  

[LifeHiscost]

 

21 Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor...."

 

That's loving your neighbor in the same way you love yourself.  

That was instruction for that particular individual because he had a weakness there as evidenced by what Jesus said as the young man turned and walked away sorrowfully.

 

…23But when he had heard these things, he became very sad, for he was extremely rich. 24And Jesus looked at him and said, "How hard it is for those who are wealthy to enter the kingdom of God! 25"For it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."…...Luke 18

 

If this is a man's problem, the same counsel would seem to me important to seriously consider for themselves.

 

…23"But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light that is in you is darkness, how great is the darkness! 24"No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and wealth....Matt 6

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[Robert]

That was instruction for that particular individual because he had a weakness there as evidenced by what Jesus said as the young man turned and walked away sorrowfully.

 

 Really? Let's look at the context:

 

Matt 19:16 "Now behold, one came and said to Him, "Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?"

 

What does this man want?  He wants eternal life in return for doing good.

 

What is the measuring stick of righteousness?  The law!

 

So Jesus gives him the law:

 

"If you want to enter into life (i.e., obtain eternal life), keep the commandments." 18 He said to Him, "Which ones?" Jesus said, "'You shall not murder,' 'You shall not commit adultery,' 'You shall not steal,' 'You shall not bear false witness,' 19 'Honor your father and your mother,' and, 'You shall love your neighbor as you love yourself.' 

 

Notice his reply: "All these things I have kept from my youth. Where do I lack?"

 

 Jesus said to him, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor..."

 

In other words if you want to be perfect before the law (i.e., love your neighbor as you love yourself) then give all your possessions to your neighbor.  Why? Because the law of God demands pure agape love and not one gram of self-love. That's why Paul said, "Let no man seek his own, but every man another's wealth."  

 

The believer has been "delivered from under law" (see Romans 7:6) because he/she is "falling short" (see Romans 3:23) of God's agape love as seen in the life of Christ.  To remain under law and love self is to take the curse of the law. So Christ delivered us from under law to under grace.  Under grace we stand perfect in Christ and as we rest in His finished work of redemption we grow in grace.  But, as long as life last there will be stopping point where we can say we have arrived at perfection.  Who said this?  Ellen White.

[Robert]

 

 

.... as long as life last there will be stopping point where we can say we have arrived at perfection.  Who said this?  Ellen White.

 

 

 

 

 

Correction:  As long as life lasts there will be NO stopping point where we can say we have arrived at perfection.  Who said this?  Ellen White.

 

Here's the actual quote:

 

" So long as Satan reigns, we shall have self to subdue, besetting sins to overcome; so long as life shall last, there will be no stopping place, no point which we can reach and say, I have fully attained." AA 561

[Gregory Matthews]

In the above post, Robert has corrected a typo.  Most of us make typos.

 

Then, Robert quoted the exact statement of EGW, and he quoted it accurately in the final part of the post.

 

My concern is with an earlier part of the post:  The phrase:   ". . . there will be NO stopping point where we can say we have arrived at perfection.  Who said this?  Ellen White."  is not the  same as the phrase:  " . . . there will be no stopping place , no point which we can reach and say, I have fully attained.  AA 561."   

 

The question is:  What was EGWs focus when she used the word "attained."  To substitute the word "perfection" is to interpret what EGW meant.

 

Reference to the passage in AA on  pages 560 & 561 shows that EGW had the word "sanctification" as her reference point.  In the very next sentence4, "Sanctification"  is the next word that she uses as well as it being the first word in that paragraph.

 

One might argue that  sanctification and perfection are the same and have an equal meaning.  It is possible that one might be correct.

 

It is also possible that it would not be correct to do so.  Personally, I do not believe the Bible gives the same meaning to those two words. 

 

I find that all to often people who cite EGW in this forum, give an interpretative meaning to what she actually said.

[JoeMo]

If you really love your neighbor as yourself, then give all your possessions to your neighbor.  That's agape.

Really? It appears to me that salvation came to a repentant tax collector for only giving half of his stuff away.  See Luke 19:1-10.  Why was twice as much required of the rich young ruler than of Zacchaeus (I have an answer that I might share later)?  Or maybe your version of agape isn't the standard for eternal life?

 

If I gave all my stuff to my neighbor, that wouldn't speak very well of the divine stewardship responsibility I have for my family.

[Robert]

Really? It appears to me that salvation came to a repentant tax collector for only giving half of his stuff away.  ....

 

So you are promoting salvation by works?

 

 

If I gave all my stuff to my neighbor, that wouldn't speak very well of the divine stewardship responsibility I have for my family.

 

So doing something bad (self-seeking) by doing something good (taking care of your family) cancels the bad?

[Robert]

In the above post, Robert has corrected a typo.  Most of us make typos.

 

Then, Robert quoted the exact statement of EGW, and he quoted it accurately in the final part of the post.

 

My concern is with an earlier part of the post:  The phrase:   ". . . there will be NO stopping point where we can say we have arrived at perfection.  Who said this?  Ellen White."  is not the  same as the phrase:  " . . . there will be no stopping place , no point which we can reach and say, I have fully attained.  AA 561."   

 

The question is:  What was EGWs focus when she used the word "attained."  To substitute the word "perfection" is to interpret what EGW meant.

 

Reference to the passage in AA on  pages 560 & 561 shows that EGW had the word "sanctification" as her reference point.  In the very next sentence4, "Sanctification"  is the next word that she uses as well as it being the first word in that paragraph.

 

One might argue that  sanctification and perfection are the same and have an equal meaning.  It is possible that one might be correct.

 

It is also possible that it would not be correct to do so.  Personally, I do not believe the Bible gives the same meaning to those two words. 

 

I find that all to often people who cite EGW in this forum, give an interpretative meaning to what she actually said.

 

 

Look at the context again:

 

" So long as Satan reigns, we shall have self to subdue, besetting sins to overcome; so long as life shall last, there will be no stopping place, no point which we can reach and say, I have fully attained." AA 561

 

In other words you will not be without sin up to the day you die.  John states this:  "If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves".  This doesn't deny we grow because we do....

 

Perfection, to me, is not sinning.

[Robert]

 

So doing something bad (self-seeking) by doing something good (taking care of your family) cancels the bad?

 

Agape is not self-seeking.  See 1 Cor 13:5

 

Now read the following:

 

Luke 6:27 "But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. 29 If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. 30 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31 Do to others as you would have them do to you. 32 "If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' love those who love them. 33 And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' do that. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' lend to 'sinners,' expecting to be repaid in full. 35 But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back.

[JoeMo]

 

So you are promoting salvation by works?

 

So doing something bad (self-seeking) by doing something good (taking care of your family) cancels the bad?

Trust me - I'm the last guy to ever promote salvation by works.  I'm just saying that giving away everything to others is NOT a good work - it's stupid unless you're dying tomorrow.

It sounded like you were promoting salvation by works by implying (at least I inferred) that nothing less than giving away everything is satisfactory; and Zacchaeus seemed to meet the mark by only giving away half his stuff.

 

The agape stuff is the same stuff you used to post from Jack S., right?

[Robert]

The agape stuff is the same stuff you used to post from Jack S., right?

 

Paul states it....forget Jack...forget me....

 

I'm just letting you know that we are sinners, even after conversion.  Yes, there's less self-seeking, but we are not free of our bent.  That's my point.

[LifeHiscost]

Paul states it....forget Jack...forget me....

 

I'm just letting you know that we are sinners, even after conversion.  Yes, there's less self-seeking, but we are not free of our bent.  That's my point.

I'm just happy to believe there are many of the believers that do a lot better than me at achieving, through the power of God, the righteousness of Christ.

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!