Evolution makes the Sabbath meaningless!

[Robert]

Definitely! One of the most promising for present as well as future security is this one.

 

20'Sanctify My sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between Me and you, that you may know that I am the LORD your God.' Ezek 20

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!

 

Ez 20:12 2 Also I gave them my Sabbaths as a sign between us, so they would know that I the LORD made them holy.  

 

"Made them holy" is in the past tense.  Hence it's a redemptive sign.  

 

Now were the Jews holy in reality?

 

13 "'Yet the people of Israel rebelled against me in the desert. They did not follow my decrees but rejected my laws--although the man who obeys them will by them live (i.e., obey & live)--and they utterly desecrated my Sabbaths.

 

No!

 

So to reject the Sabbath was to reject that in the coming Messiah they were perfectly holy.

[Robert]

 From a practical standpoint, can you imagine how thick the book of Genesis would be if God had to explain the whole DNA genetic code thing to a a bunch of slaves and sheep-herders?

 

Actually, mankind was much smarter then any of us today.  They would look at us as the sheep-herders!

 

Ellen White:

 

In strength of intellect, men who now live can bear no comparison to the ancients. There have been more ancient arts lost than the present generation now possess. For skill and art those living in this degenerate age will not compare with the knowledge possessed by strong men who lived near one thousand years.

 

There perished in the Flood greater inventions of art and human skill than the world knows of today. The arts destroyed were more than the boasted arts of today.

[Robert]

 theory of origin (almost proven beyond theory).

 

[Gregory Matthews]

Robert, you do not have to agree with anyone's understanding of a Biblical text, but the fact that you disagree does not negate the fact that others have reasons for believing something that they attribute to the Bible.  

 

NOTE:  If you are uncertain of  my reference, I am thinking about those evolutionists who value the Sabbath.

[JoeMo]

Actually, mankind was much smarter then any of us today.  They would look at us as the sheep-herders!

 

Ellen White:

 

In strength of intellect, men who now live can bear no comparison to the ancients. There have been more ancient arts lost than the present generation now possess. For skill and art those living in this degenerate age will not compare with the knowledge possessed by strong men who lived near one thousand years.

 

There perished in the Flood greater inventions of art and human skill than the world knows of today. The arts destroyed were more than the boasted arts of today.

Ellen White may have been a prophet (although she never claimed to be), but no one I know except you ever considered her a accredited historian.  How would she know this? (oh yeah - she was a prophet.)  I understand some people take as fact every word that cometh forth from the mouth of EGW - to each his own.

[Gregory Matthews]

 

Another event which would disrupt actually knowing in a scientific manner would be a universal flood of water covering the entire earth. Given that the Bible says water covered the entire earth and the highest mountain on the earth is nearly six miles higher than sea level would no doubt make anyone choke trying to explain it.

 

Lyndon:

 

1) Do your believe that prior to the Flood the Earth had mountain ranges as we have them today and that one mountain, at that time, stood almost six (6) miles above the surface of the Earth?

 

2)  If that is what you believe, do you have any idea as to the volume of water that would cover the Earth, and where do you believe that water exists today?  I ask this question from the perspective that the total volumne of water known to exist on Earth today would not allow for the srface of the Earth to be covered by watear that covered the top of Mt. Everest by some unknown amount.

 

3) When you say "universal flood" I assume that you mean "global flood."  Regardless, your use of the term "universal flood" discredits you and presents you in a manner of not understanding what you are saying.  Regardless of what the Bible actually teaches, I do not believe that any creationist teaches that the there was a flood that covered the surfact of every planet in the universe at the same time.

 

NOTE:  I am not attempting to "nit-pick" Lyndon on my # 3.  I know what he mant to say.  But, I have a book, written from an evolutionary perspective that examines the arguements of creationists.  As a creationist, I find it helpful.   One of the points in which I find it helpful is where it looks at words commonly used by creationists that are used in a unique sense that differws from the manner by which a common English speaking informed person woudl use them.  Creationists shoot themselves in the foot, so to speak, when they do such.  No person who believes in the flood of Noah should ever use the term "universal flood."

[Gregory Matthews]

Lyndon said:

 

 

One of the problems we are having here is the Bible clearly states something, but it is rejected and the arrogance of human thought is substituted for it.

 

One of the problems is that we all to often read into what the Bible actually says is our own agenda.

 

Following the above quote, Lyndon tells us that the highest mountain on eArth is almost six miles above the surface of the Earth and the context suggests that Lyndon is tellilng us that the water at the time of Noah's flood was about six (6) miles deep, or more.

 

Well, the Bible does not tell us that at the time of Noah we had mountain ranges in the same manner that we have them today.  IOW, it  does not tell us that at the time of Noah, Mr. Everst existed in the manner that it exists today.

[fccool]

Evolution makes the Sabbath meaningless!

 

 

The meaning of a symbol isn't derived from absolute historical accuracy associated with such symbol.

 

For example,  Christmas is celebrated in tandem with pagan festivals.   Most Christians know that the history behind the actual celebration is a bit different, but it doesn't make it meaningless in context that they interpret it and what they celebrate.   They don't celebrate the pagan aspect of it.   Meaning is a multy-fasceted concept.

 

The same goes for Sabbath.   Sabbath is literally rest, but it's obviously a symbolic rest.   My Sabbaths are the most stressful time of the week due to amount of church duties I have to perform on top of getting my family there with all of the expectations that such "getting there" implies.   That fact doesn't automatically mean that the Sabbath loses its meaning.   There are more than one meaning for any given symbol, and the applications of such meaning will differ from person to person.

 

Evolution is a scientific theory, and the implications of it are scientific, and not necessarily philosophical or religious.   The larger point is that we find meaning, and that's what makes it work for us... whether such meaning exists or not in reality.  

[Gregory Matthews]

Lyndon:

 

Well, you gave me a good laugh for today.  Thanks.

[joeb]

Robert, you continue to miss the point. Greg knows people who believe and feel different about the subject and you refuse to accept that. Why? Do you feel so superior in your knowledge that you can't accept other peoples knowledge?

I sense a lot of pride fulness in your posts, whether you mean it that way or not.

Coaspen,

 

I don't agree with Robert very often, but on this I do.  It has nothing to do with me feeling superior to anyone else.  It has to do with Biblical truth.  The Bible says God created the earth in 7 days.  That's the truth of the matter.  God's word is always true, so when something else disagrees with the Bible it isn't true. 

 

Now, if I believe a lie does that make that lie true?  Does the lie become more valid the more fervently I believe it?  Of course not.  To assume that would be nothing but fantasy.  

 

As to the logic of thinking Sabbath can be a memorial of evolution.....  It simply cannot be for the fourth commandment makes it clear that it is a memorial of the 7 days of creation.  God Himself set it up and gave it to us on the last day of creation.   The Bible makes it clear that the Sabbath is a memorial of a 24 hur day, not a memorial of millions of years of time. 

 

There is nothing in the Bible to support the idea that Sabbath memorializes evolution.   So, it's clear the evolution does not come from any Biblical source, and it is at complete odds with the Bible.   That tells me where it comes from. 

[joeb]

JoeMoe,

 

How goes it with you?  I hope well.

 

I'd like to take a look at your claim that relying on the Bible alone is akin to circular logic. 

 

Who is the Bible's real author?  Isn't it God Himself?  Doesn't that make the Bible true because God cannot lie?  So, how can relying on God's word be circular logic? 

 

Isn't being "open minded" really another term for disbelief in God's word?  It seems to me that it is for any time we take the plain word of God and say we reject it in favor of a source that is purely human in origin we are indulging in disbelief.  There's no other word for it.  

[CoAspen]

............... global warming. With global warming, scientists have been caught engaging in outright fraud.

 

     

 

Validity goes out the door when persons make such a statement!!

[CoAspen]

Coaspen,

 

I don't agree with Robert very often, but on this I do.  It has nothing to do with me feeling superior to anyone else.  It has to do with Biblical truth.  The Bible says God created the earth in 7 days.  That's the truth of the matter.  God's word is always true, so when something else disagrees with the Bible it isn't true. 

 

Now, if I believe a lie does that make that lie true?  Does the lie become more valid the more fervently I believe it?  Of course not.  To assume that would be nothing but fantasy.  

 

As to the logic of thinking Sabbath can be a memorial of evolution.....  It simply cannot be for the fourth commandment makes it clear that it is a memorial of the 7 days of creation.  God Himself set it up and gave it to us on the last day of creation.   The Bible makes it clear that the Sabbath is a memorial of a 24 hur day, not a memorial of millions of years of time. 

 

There is nothing in the Bible to support the idea that Sabbath memorializes evolution.   So, it's clear the evolution does not come from any Biblical source, and it is at complete odds with the Bible.   That tells me where it comes from. 

Missing the point....by a mile!

[JoeMo]

JoeMoe,

 

How goes it with you?  I hope well. I am well, Thanks for asking!  I hope you and yours are doing well, also.

 

I'd like to take a look at your claim that relying on the Bible alone is akin to circular logic. 

 

Who is the Bible's real author?  Well, there are lots of them - Moses, Joshua, David, Solomon, Isaiah, Jeremiah, etc.  They were all God's penmen; but they weren't His pen.

Isn't it God Himself?  Except for the 10 Commandments; no.  Men wrote the Bible as God inspired them; not as God dictated each word.

Doesn't that make the Bible true because God cannot lie?  That's what the Bible says; and God can't lie because the Bible says He can't; and God can't lie because .....

So, how can relying on God's word be circular logic? I rely on God's Word because I BELIEVE it is true out of experience; but I can't lay that burden on other people.  It's circular logic for me to explain the Bible to others as God's word cuz it says so in the Bible.

 

Isn't being "open minded" really another term for disbelief in God's word? No; it's a way for me to get other people's perspective as a tool of conversation and witnessing.

  It seems to me that it is for any time we take the plain word of God and say we reject it in favor of a source that is purely human in origin we are indulging in disbelief. I agree, but if I don't interpret God's Word exactly the same as you or Robert, does that make me an infidel?

There's no other word for it. Sure there is - it's called a difference of opinion.

 

If you choose to believe that God created the universe in six 24-hour periods, feel free to do so.  I choose to believe that God created the universe over billions of years.  The bottom line is that we both believe that God created the universe.  Hopefully we both believe that He could have created it instantly, if He chose to do so.  Maybe the belief that "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" is a salvational truth.  I don't think believing that He created it in 6 days or 6,000,000,000 years is a salvational difference any more than I believe I should pluck out my eyes if they offend me is a salvational truth.  If I believed that, I would have been blind by the time I was 10 years old.

See my responses embedded in red above

[CoAspen]

30,000 scientists sue Al Gore over global warming:

http://healthwyze.org/index.php/component/content/article/249-al-gore-sued-by-30000-scientists-for-global-warming-fraud.html

Stories of the global climate scam

http://www.globalclimatescam.com

The Coming Revelation Of The 'Global Warming' Fraud Resembles The Obamacare Lie

http://www.forbes.com/sites/peterferrara/2013/11/12/the-coming-revelation-of-the-global-warming-fraud-resembles-the-obamacare-lie/

Warming data FAKED by government to fit climate change fictions Learn more:

http://www.naturalnews.com/045695_global_warming_fabricated_data_scientific_fraud.html#

The leaked emails scam:

http://eyreinternational.wordpress.com/2012/09/03/leaked-emails-expose-us-uk-science-fraud-on-global-warming/

Got to the naysayers, the can always drag up some blog of unscientific data...just makes the supplier of such that much more un believable. The hole is already deep enough!!!

[LifeHiscost]

 

Sometimes, in 'Net forums, a lot can be missed in the tone of the post because the nonverbal language is missing. It is said that up to 65% of communication is non-verbal and lost in text communication. Of course, sometimes, the communication can be up front and blatantly hostile. That is just the nature of the beast when the conversation is text based.

 

 I believe at some Spirit guided moment, just bow out of it. God's truths should be given to those who can see the value of it.

 

In fact much of the continuing dialogue that often goes on in various different threads, I'm very much impressed with the similarities to those who eventually, after spending most of their lives debating the Scriptures, were instrumental in influencing the Romans to murder the Son of God.

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[LifeHiscost]

1. regardless of intent, you are doing it

 

2. That is your opinion, and I will say it that way anytime I wish.

 

'Nuff said

That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[LifeHiscost]

JoeMoe,

 any time we take the plain word of God and say we reject it in favor of a source that is purely human in origin we are indulging in disbelief.  There's no other word for it.  

Or at the very least, belief following a different suggestion.

 

4The serpent said to the woman, "You surely will not die! 5"For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil."…Gen 3

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[LifeHiscost]

Moderators have been known to move comments from one to the other to preserve the peace! I haven't seen any other such denominational splits.

That happens to be a sign of the times, as evidenced by this counsel below.

"The days are fast approaching when there will be great perplexity and confusion. Satan, clothed in angel robes, will deceive, if possible, the very elect. There will be gods many and lords many. Every wind of doctrine will be blowing. Those who have rendered supreme homage to “science falsely so called” will not be the leaders then. Those who have trusted to intellect, genius, or talent will not then stand at the head of rank and file. They did not keep pace with the light. Those who have proved themselves unfaithful will not then be entrusted with the flock. In the last solemn work few great men will be engaged. They are self-sufficient, independent of God, and He cannot use them. The Lord has faithful servants, who in the shaking, testing time will be disclosed to view. There are precious ones now hidden who have not bowed the knee to Baal. They have not had the light which has been shining in a concentrated blaze upon you. But it may be under a rough and uninviting exterior the pure brightness of a genuine Christian character will be revealed. In the day time we look toward heaven but do not see the stars. They are there, fixed in the firmament, but the eye cannot distinguish them. In the night we behold their genuine luster." {5T 80.1}

Why should we be surprised? In Noah's day, only eight souls were saved. At Sodom and Gomorrah, less than ten.

26"And just as it happened in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man: 27they were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were being given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and the flood came and destroyed them all.…Luke 17

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[Robert]

.... the fact that you disagree does not negate the fact that others have reasons for believing something that they attribute to the Bible. 

 

 

Out of context, perhaps?

[Robert]

Ellen White may have been a prophet (although she never claimed to be), but no one I know except you ever considered her a accredited historian.  How would she know this? (oh yeah - she was a prophet.)  I understand some people take as fact every word that cometh forth from the mouth of EGW - to each his own.

 

EGW was a messenger.  She pointed to the Bible as the infallible source.  Hence the Bible is its own interpreter.  

 

Ellen White never claimed to be infallible.  There are somethings were I disagree with her, or it's a misunderstanding, but she still had light.  She was not of the devil as some state....

 

That's my two cents....

[Robert]

Sabbath is literally rest, but it's obviously a symbolic rest.  ....

No, the Sabbath is God's 7th-day...the day He rested (ceased His work) from both a perfect & sinless creation and redemption.  It's the actual day God ended His work.

[Robert]

There is nothing in the Bible to support the idea that Sabbath memorializes evolution.   So, it's clear the evolution does not come from any Biblical source, and it is at complete odds with the Bible.   That tells me where it comes from. 

[Robert]

If you choose to believe that God created the universe in six 24-hour periods, feel free to do so.  I choose to believe that God created the universe over billions of years.  

 

The creation of the earth....not the universe.....

[Robert]

It seems to be a greater problem in SDA forums than other church forums. For instance, over at ChristianForums there are TWO Adventist forums. One for traditional SDAs & one for "progressive" SDAs. Moderators have been known to move comments from one to the other to preserve the peace! I haven't seen any other such denominational splits.

 I can't say anything good about ChristianForums.   That's why I came back here....