Evolution makes the Sabbath meaningless!

[Gregory Matthews]

well, at least you find good here. 

[JoeMo]

Robert says: "EGW was a messenger. She pointed to the Bible as the infallible source. Hence the Bible is its own interpreter."

 

That is rock-solid logic for a good Adventist,  It is just another link in the chain of circular logic to the non-SDA or non-believer. 

 

"Our church says EGW was a messenger from God; and she said the Bible is infallible, so it must be true, cuz EGW was a messenger from God and she said the Bible is infallible. God says in the Bible that His Word is infallible; and the Bible is infallible because both God and EGW said so - EGW in her writings and God in the Bible ...."

 

I'm not saying you're wrong; I agree that EGW had a prophetic gift and that the Bible is divinely inspired.  I'm just saying your logic holds no water with people who don't believe that.  It's a matter of faith - not fact.  That being said, I've staked my eternal destiny on my belief that God speaks to man through His Bible and through His Spirit.  Just cuz I think I'm right doesn't mean that I actually am (at least not always).

[joeb]

Missing the point....by a mile!

Not even.  You're saying that it is just as valid to believe evolution is memorialized by the Sabbath as it is to believe the Sabbath memorializes the 7 day creation week.  One is Biblical the other is not. 

 

That someone believes something doesn't validate the belief.   This is very true of Biblical truth, and especially true when the Bible makes plain statements on a subject and we choose to think that what is in the Bible is a lie.   For example, the KKK believes racism is Biblical.  Does that make their belief valid? 

[joeb]

See my responses embedded in red above

JoeMo, 

 

Your example about plucking out your eyes is clearly figurative speech as Jesus plainly was not someone to tell anyone that in a literal sense.  The plain statements about creation are not figurative speech.  There's nothing in the creation account that is figurative.   Morning and evening is a literal time period.  It    It's pretty clear to me that you're comparing apples and oranges.

 

Being open-minded is listening to another person and not condemning them or thinking we're superior to them if their beliefs are different than yours.  That's how things go between fallible human beings.  However, when we're dealing with God things don't work that way.  He doesn't say, well, you can not believe me and it won't affect you in the least.  Not believing God always has negative consequences for us.

 

I hope you will remember who your enemy really is and just how inferior we are to him intellectually.  He is the 3rd smartest being in the universe.  We were created "a little lower than than the angels", who were inferior to Lucifer.  On top of that science has shown that the most brilliant among us use no more than 10% of our brains.   Do you really believe God created us to be that way, or is this state of affairs the result of the deterioration of the human race due to sin?  We're only 1/10th as brainy as the human race was created to be, and the devil outsmarted us before we lost the use of most of our brain. 

 

The word of God is our only defense as we are overmatched.  Our enemy is the master con man.  He ran a con that it took God more than 4000 years to fully expose to both angels and to mankind.  Think you're brilliant enough to see through him without God's word, as it is written?  I know I'm not.  All I can do is trust that God loves us, and that because He does He gave us His word that is the light that shines on truth and exposes the devil's deceptions. 

 

I hope you know that I don't look down on you, JoeMo.

 

Please trust the Bible as it is written for it is the word of God. 

[Robert]

2. As knowledge increases, people have less need for God

 

One of the main reasons they landed the Rosetta Probe on the comet?

 

"Made of ancient ice, dust and other materials, comets are objects of scientific curiosity because they have survived virtually intact from the earliest days of the solar system, more than 4.5 billion years ago. Studying them can provide clues about how the solar system formed and evolved.

 

Because comets carry water and organic molecules, scientists also hope that the Rosetta mission will provide insights into whether comets could have brought water to Earth and possibly kick-started life here." [ref:  http://online.wsj.com/articles/rosetta-missions-probe-lands-on-comet-1415784838]

Rom 1:22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools..

[JoeMo]

In fact much of the continuing dialogue that often goes on in various different threads, I'm very much impressed with the similarities to those who eventually, after spending most of their lives debating the Scriptures, were instrumental in influencing the Romans to murder the Son of God.

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!

The Romans didn't murder Christ; the establishment denomination had been planning to see Christ dead for a long time.

 

For that matter, Christ allowed Himself to die.  Had He not submitted Himself to the Father - even unto death - He could have vaporized everyone of His enemies and detractors in an instant.  Jesus chose to die from before the foundations of the earth.  What a Savior!

[CoAspen]

 

The Romans didn't murder Christ; the establishment denomination had been planning to see Christ dead for a long time.

 

Correct......wonder why people seem to forget that......hmmmm.......

[LifeHiscost]

The Romans didn't murder Christ; the establishment denomination had been planning to see Christ dead for a long time.

 

For that matter, Christ allowed Himself to die.  Had He not submitted Himself to the Father - even unto death - He could have vaporized everyone of His enemies and detractors in an instant.  Jesus chose to die from before the foundations of the earth.  What a Savior!

Since it was illegal under Roman law, for the religious leaders of that day to carry out capital punishment, that dirty work was yielded over to the Romans who were governing, though it was obvious the political weakness of Pilate before the crowd was exploited by them who cried for Jesus death.

 

17So when the people gathered together, Pilate said to them, "Whom do you want me to release for you? Barabbas, or Jesus who is called Christ?" 18For he knew that because of envy they had handed Him over.…Matt 27

 

11But the chief priests stirred up the crowd to ask him to release Barabbas for them instead. 12Answering again, Pilate said to them, “Then what shall I do with Him whom you call the King of the Jews?” 13They shouted back, “Crucify Him!” 14But Pilate said to them, “Why, what evil has He done?” But they shouted all the more, “Crucify Him!” 15Wishing to satisfy the crowd, Pilate released Barabbas for them, and after having Jesus scourged, he handed Him over to be crucified.

Mark 15

 

It is true that Jesus yielded His life for our sins, and if He hadn't we ourselves could not have been released from the penalty of our sins.

 

By His knowledge the Righteous One, My Servant, will justify the many, As He will bear their iniquities. 12Therefore, I will allot Him a portion with the great, And He will divide the booty with the strong; Because He poured out Himself to death, And was numbered with the transgressors; Yet He Himself bore the sin of many, And interceded for the transgressors....Isaiah 53

 

22In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness....Heb 9

 

This text makes it plain that the Law of God has never been done away with, for if it had been able to be done away with, Jesus would not have had to shed His blood for our cleansing.

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!  

[LifeHiscost]

HEY ALL

 

Evolution  makes the  bible  meaningless

 

dgrimm60

That's one way of looking at it. OTOH, knowing the Christian Bible as the Word of the Creator, meaningless Bible is an oxymoron. Whatever one might believe, nothing changes Truth.

/ox·y·mo·ron

ˌäksəˈmôrˌän/

noun

noun: oxymoron; plural noun: oxymorons

1. a figure of speech in which apparently contradictory terms appear in conjunction (e.g., faith unfaithful kept him falsely true ).

 

6For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed....Malachi 3

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[wendys]

The original purpose and sole reason for creating the Sabbath, according to Genesis 2:1-3, was as a memorial of the creation week.  This is stated very directly outside the ten commandments.  It, along with creation, is the foundation of the 7 day weekly cycle, without which there is no reason to have a 7-day weekly cycle.  And without that, there would be no other reason for Sabbath observance becaus it would not have been there later, available to attach other meanings to it in addition to its function as a memorial of creation. 

 

Believing in the Sabbath for reasons other than its original purpose appears doable by some people, but does that make it valid to keep it that way?  I think not.  But I am not the judge of all the earth, so I'll probably have to wait for God's judgment on this issue.

 

However, I can say this.  Those who believe in evolution as the way in which God created life on this earth have demoted God to a far lessor status than the Bible gives to him.  Its a fact that according to the Bible and Ellen White, at the creation of man he was given the basic knowledge of the way the world worked.  But strength of character, life habits, and and other such things awaited development through experience. Man was not created with memories of his past because there was no past for him. 

 

Now, when God resurrects someone, he has to not only create a body for that person, but he also has to put back in the character of the person AND his memories of his life.  If you think about that you should realize that it is much more difficult to resurrect someone than to create man in the Garden of Eden.  All of the wiring in the brain has to be set and that requires that trillions of cells have to be set to the right pattern to create character and memories that once existed for the person.  That is a whole lot harder than just creating a blank slate with trillions of cells waiting to begin their work for the first time.

 

But along come those who say that we should believe science as it exists today and they come up with this idea of theistic evolutiton where they essentially have evolution guided along by God.  IF that really is the truth of how we got here, then this means that God's word of the creation in Genesis cannot be trusted, which implies that he cannot be trusted to tell the truth.  But if you want to just gloss the Genesis story over as an easy way to explain things to people so that it does not seem as though God really lied to us, you still have a problem.  You see, if this is the trurth of how we came to be, then this clearly implies that God's power is extremely limited.  He had to create us without divine intervention as we are told in Genesis, but rather he had to use evolution to create us - and it took billions of years for us to come to be.  And that is a very big problem.  You see, if he could not create us as he said in Genesis, then he certainly cannot resurrect us.  It takes more power to resurrect than it does to create in the first place, so if God could not have created us as he said he did in Genesis, then there is never going to be a resurrection for it would take millions or billions of years to accomplish and he would have to go through the whole process all over again since his power is so obviously limited.  If that is the case, then why on earth bother with God?  Since God had to know this to be the case, then why would he bother with coming to this earth to die for our sins?  I do not think he would do that, which means that if the Genesis story is just a cover for guided evolution, then there really is no salvation, with or without Jesus.  It would be impossible.  Those who teach guided evolution effectively neuter God. 

 

Oh, but there are those who say that resurrection is real, but God did create us through guided evolution.  Fine, but you cannot have it both ways because either he had the power to create us as Genesis says, which implies that he can resurrect us, or he had to go through guided evolution, which clearly implies that he has not the power to resurrect us.  We can pretend that we believe him that he can resurrect us, but we refuse to believe him when he says that he created us and we limit his power.  You cannot have it both ways even if you pretend you can.  Sincerely believing the pretense is not going to work.  You either beileve God or you do not.  That is what it boils down to for every person.

 

We may never be able in this present world to prove creation or the flood.  BUT, we have plenty of evidence in the Bible that God does NOT lie.  Oh, its not in the statements that "it is impossible for God to lie" or statements of that kind in the Bible, but rather its better evidence than that.  We have the Bible prophecies which clearly show that God knew thousands of years ahead of time what the future will be.  God said he took counsel of what the future would be and then he made it happen.  And he told us ahead of time what it would be, so we can see that he does not lie.  He is no liar and can be trusted.  Based on this we can know that his creation story is the truth even if we cannot at present prove it scientifically.

 

All of us will be brought forward for judgment by God.  I for one do not want to be found saying that God's story of creation is false, an allergory to teach us a lesson, and that he creation really is guided evolution.  And, oh yes, I keep the Sabbath, but I keep it for reasons having nothing to do with the creation story.  And yes, I believe in the resurrection, nevere mind that I am saying that he could not have created us in the beginning but he sure can later!  Hey, I want into heaven!  I can ignore some of what God said and very sincerely KNOW that I am doing right!  Do you honestly think God will be fooled by this? 

 

Do we believe God or not?  That will be the question. 

 

Or do we do as this verse says:

 

Isa 66:17  They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens following one in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, says the LORD.

[JoeMo]

Lyndon,

I studied Dr. Gentry's book a few years ago.  One of the finest and most scientific studies leaning towards creation that I ever read.  Let's assume he's correct.  The instant creation of the earth could have still happened billions of years ago.  If I remember correctly, the base strata from which his samples were taken have been dated to be billions of years old.

 

Whether 6,000 years ago or 6 billion years ago, the polonium halos in crystals contained in granite - caused by an unstable isotope of the element with a half-life of only several seconds - is some tough pro-creation evidence  to refute.  I also believe that Dr. Gentry stated that, as of the date of his book, no laboratory on earth was able to duplicate the crystalline structure of granite.

[Robert]

Not that it matters, but I see a relatively new creation on an old foundation.

[Gregory Matthews]

Robert Gentry:   See the following:

 

 

 

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/po-halos/gentry.html

 

By way of interest, there are SDA geologists who are creationists, who do not accept the work of Robert Gentry.  One of the major   issues, and there are more, is that Gentry is not trained geology.

 

I believe that it was Lyndon who said:  See post 70.

 

 

 

Dr. Robert Gentry's work has been around for many years, evolutionists have yet to come up with a tangible argument against it.

[Robert]

The bottom line is this:  Theistic Evolution is nothing more or less than a wolf in sheep's clothing.  By that I mean that under all that so called scientific data is a subtle form of salvation by works!

 

How so?

 

Again, remember that the 7th-day Sabbath points to God's sinless and complete work.  His rest from that work symbolized perfection.  Hence God did not begin improving on His creation the day after the Sabbath (i.e., the 8th-day, our Sunday).  His work was unblemished...it was perfect. No death marred God's work.

 

In Theistic Evolution death was an integral part of a process that yielded "the survival of the fittest". Mankind, therefore, is evolving to a higher sphere and one day he will shed his animal nature.  Then perhaps God can rest from His perfect work through this process called evolution!

 

The Bible teaches that man is not evolving; rather it teaches devolution, i.e., mankind is becoming worse (see 2 Timothy 3:1-5).  So Theistic Evolution, whether it means it or not, teaches that mankind is becoming better until at last he sheds his animal propensities.  

 

Therefore Theistic Evolution is just "another gospel" based on human progress until at last mankind is in the image & likeness of this creator. So the Sabbath, according to Theistic Evolution, is future.

 

 

 

 

[Robert]

As man is, God once was

As God is, man shall be

 

Sounds like someone I've read about:

 

Is 14:13 You said in your heart (mind), "I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. 14 I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High."

[LifeHiscost]

Sounds like someone I've read about:

 

Is 14:13 You said in your heart (mind), "I will ascend to heaven; I will raise my throne above the stars of God; I will sit enthroned on the mount of assembly, on the utmost heights of the sacred mountain. 14 I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High."

 

  [unquote]

 

Depends on how you look at it.

 

14Therefore, since we have a great high priest who has passed through the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our confession. 15For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin. 16Therefore let us draw near with confidence to the throne of grace, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need....Hebrews 4

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!

[Robert]

As man is, God once was

God has always been God.  He is self-existent!  

 

Even at the incarnation Jesus, the man, remained God. 

As God is, man shall be

Man will never become God.  Yes, He will become immortal, but He will never become God.

[LifeHiscost]

I do not believe you quoted me accurately.

Sometimes when posting, the subsequent page isn't the one I had intended and when I make effort to correct it by edit, the action gets more and more confusing. I'm sorry about that. No offense meant.

 

God is Love! Jesus saves!