Senate Chaplain makes a stand

[JoeMo]

Laz says:

"Here's your error: you have total trust in the American justice system."

 

I think the larger error is us thinking we have a "justice system" at all.  We have a "LEGAL System" in the United States - and a coin-operated one at that.  A "justice" system is based on what is fair and beneficial to the citizens at large.  A "legal" system is based on a set of rules ginned (used the word "gin" on purpose) up by a coalition of legislators and lobbyists, frequently based on who contributes the most money to to the particular legislator or group thereof.  Look at the number of totally arcane and stupid laws in this country.  Look at the legitimate laws that aren't enforced in the slightest.

 

This country is run on the golden rule - "He who has the gold rules".

[Kountzer]

Laz says:

"Here's your error: you have total trust in the American justice system."

 

I think the larger error is us thinking we have a "justice system" at all.  We have a "LEGAL System" in the United States - and a coin-operated one at that.  A "justice" system is based on what is fair and beneficial to the citizens at large.  A "legal" system is based on a set of rules ginned (used the word "gin" on purpose) up by a coalition of legislators and lobbyists, frequently based on who contributes the most money to to the particular legislator or group thereof.  Look at the number of totally arcane and stupid laws in this country.  Look at the legitimate laws that aren't enforced in the slightest.

 

This country is run on the golden rule - "He who has the gold rules".

We have a "LEGAL System"and a coin-operated one at that.

 

Nice.

[Gerr]

The Mike Brown event, Eric Garner, Tamir Rice, Trayvon Martin, they all blend in together.  The protests are about all of those situations combined together.

Now, isn't profiling?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Profiling isn't always bad.   Suppose the police were looking for members of the KKK.  They'll be appropriately looking askance at white men. Outlaw motorcycle gangs are also nearly 100% white.  

[Kountzer]

Now, isn't profiling?

Profiling was a factor in those peoples deaths.

[joeb]

Profiling was a factor in those peoples deaths.

Garner:  Tne business people making the complaints were minorities.  The captain of the precinct is black.  The sargent in charge of the squad was a black woman.   This tragedy was caused by the state of new York placing a higher priority on collecting taxes than on a lot of criminal behavior.  

Garner's own wife says this had nothing to do with race.

 

Mike Brown:  This guy decided to rob a grocery store.  He then decided to walk down the middle of the street.  Then he decided to attack a police officer while the officer was in his vehicle when the officer talked to him.  Had he not made any of those decisions he would still be alive.   

 

Are you saying that when a complaint is made that a black man is breaking the law that the cops should look for white, asians, American indians, etc... before they attempt to look for a black man? 

[LifeHiscost]

 This world as we know it it quickly boiling down to four groups of people.  The smartest persons in the world are no match for Satan.  My .02.

I would suggest just three groups, those who accept the mark in either their forehead or in their hand or those who receive the seal of God.

 

9Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God....Rev 14

 

2And I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, having the seal of the living God; and he cried out with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3saying, "Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until we have sealed the bond-servants of our God on their foreheads."....Rev 7

 

God is Love! Jesus saves! 

[Gerr]

We have a "LEGAL System"and a coin-operated one at that.

 

Nice.

While our Legal/Justice system is imperfect,  it is probably as good as sinful human beings could devise.  I think the justice bought that you cynically (?) refer to is the exception rather than the rule.  Since one's belief system is one's reality, then no matter how hard the justice/legal system does to establish the truth and render a just verdict, it would be forever suspect!

[Gerr]

Profiling isn't always bad.   Suppose the police were looking for members of the KKK.  They'll be appropriately looking askance at white men. Outlaw motorcycle gangs are also nearly 100% white.  

I totally agree.   I believe our brain is programmed to look for a pattern out of a puzzling series of events/incidents/facts or whatever, in order to make decision making easier. Wisdom comes in recognizing the exceptions..

[Tom Wetmore]

Accepting that our brains are "programmed" however should not justify bias or prejudice because profiling has a legitimate and useful purpose under carefully structured scenarios. But more significantly recognizing that fact about how the mind works without understand the how and why of it overlooks how it can work to create bias and prejudice rather than good judgement. While there may be a hard wired aspect, the brain is programmed by experience. That experience can be both positve and negative. And how that ultimately develops implicit associations is quite complex. Analyis of implicit association testing is showing how deeply engrained this can become in creating implicit bias in a negative sense. Understanding this fact should inform our judgment not define it.

A simple example without the racial overtones may help illustrate how our mind's implicit associational programming can go both ways to create subconscious distinction in opposite directions for the same thing. Early childhood exposure to a dog. One dog bite can have lasting negative associational impact that creates an implicit avoidance or dislike of all dogs, especially without sufficient positve experiences with dogs to override that one negative experience. Not all dogs bite. Not all dogs are bad. But to let that one negative experience define ones judgement shows how easily the brain can be programmed in the wrong direction. But on the other hand, early childhood positve exposure to dogs may not be overcome by one dog bite later in life. But even then that one bad experience can create implicit avoidance of dogs. It takes more positive experiences to reinforce positve emotional outcomes than it does negative experiences to reinforce negative emotional outcomes. And I believe that emotional programming of our brains by such experiences is a major factor in programming implicit asociations/ biases. And a significant part of that is social group and familial associations and experiences that reinforce such programming of our implicit associations/biases.

[Dr. Shane]

The whole issue is sad and to see Adventists get sucked into it is sad too.  When I was in college a Hispanic friend of mine locked himself out of his Mercedes.  His dad was a doctor and had purchased it for him.  As he was trying to get the door open, the police stopped, handcuffed him, threw him down on the hood and took out his wallet.  After running the plates they discovered the car was his.  They took off the handcuffs and without apologizing asked, "What is a guy like you doing with a car like this?" 

 

I know that type of racism is still common today.  I don't know why the minority leadership doesn't use those types of cases to lead a protest.  Why do they use cases where the alledged victim was on drugs, acting out and having a criminal history?  There are plenty of people like Rosa Parks still being victimized.

 

As Adventists, we have a message and it isn't to campaign against abortion or racial profiling.  Let people from other denominations fight against those issues.  God has called us for a much higher work.  Let us step up to the work He has called us to do and let others worry about "shoveling the snow" in this present world.

[Tom Wetmore]

Yet, the early Adventist Church was urged to engage in some of the hot topic social issues of the time, the temperance movement and healthful living. The prophet also had al lot to say about what was called the welfare ministry, addressing many of the adverse effects of societal problems of the time. Many early Advents were also strong abolitionists. EGW herself helped finance work among the blacks of the south and sent Willie to work there.

[Dr. Shane]

Being involved with politics has been called "shoveling snow" because the impact of what is done doesn't last yet, someone needs to do it.  When snow covers the driveway, someone needs to shovel it.  Yet, the next storm is just going to cover it up again.  So it is with politics.  The ratification of the Bill of Rights and the emancipation of the slaves are perhaps the two greatest political achievements in the history of the United States.  As significant as those achievements are, by themselves, they did not save any souls for the kingdom.  Unless those living under the Constitution and those freed from slavery find salvation in Christ, freedom provides only temporary relief.  Like shoveling snow, granting them freedom has no long lasting effect.

 

I am not one that believes individual Adventists shouldn't be involved in politics if they want to be however I believe we have a much higher calling.  I have donated money to pro-life causes that run crisis pregnancy clinics, to Greenpeace, and several poltical campaigns, however my time is much to precious to give them.  I believe God has called me to do something much higher.

 

I do take exception to church leaders, such as pastors and conference employees, getting involved with politics dealing with issues beyond religious freedom.  I think as a church we need to set a clear example of what seperation of church and state are.  Our members as individuals, and citizens of their repsective countries, are free to be civicly involved in the democratic process.  Yet I think it a mistake to shovel snow when we gather together as a religious organization.  I would never encourage the church, as an organization, to donate money to a political cause as I have done as an indiviual.

 

In this instance we have the chaplin of the US Senate.  He serves both Republicans and Democrats and is admired by many outside of the Senate in both public life and the life of the church.  Now when he takes a position on a political hot topic (regardless what it is) he is going to lose influence with one group of people.  Those whose admiration he retains, he would have retained even without taking the controversial issue.  So he gains nothing.  His ability to influence others for Christ is dimenished by getting involved with the muck of politics.

 

Many believe this was a mistake Martin Luther King Jr. made as well.  Dr. King had respect of many powerful people of all racial backgrounds on the issue of civil rights.  After the passage of the 1965 civil rights legislation, he started to take political positions against the Vietnam War.  His position on the war has since been proven correct but that didn't gain him anything.  It actually cost him some influence.  People that had repsected him for his position on civil rights started to lose respect for him when he became opposed to the war in Vietnam.

 

When we focus on one thing as an organization - preaching the gospel of Christ. We can make a much greater impact for the kingdom of God.  If we get bogged down into the abortion movement and other politcal hot issues of the day we will only cost ourselves influence and thus hinder the advancement of the gospel.

[Gerr]

The whole issue is sad and to see Adventists get sucked into it is sad too.  When I was in college a Hispanic friend of mine locked himself out of his Mercedes.  His dad was a doctor and had purchased it for him.  As he was trying to get the door open, the police stopped, handcuffed him, threw him down on the hood and took out his wallet.  After running the plates they discovered the car was his.  They took off the handcuffs and without apologizing asked, "What is a guy like you doing with a car like this?" 

 

I know that type of racism is still common today.  I don't know why the minority leadership doesn't use those types of cases to lead a protest.  Why do they use cases where the alledged victim was on drugs, acting out and having a criminal history?  There are plenty of people like Rosa Parks still being victimized.

 

As Adventists, we have a message and it isn't to campaign against abortion or racial profiling.  Let people from other denominations fight against those issues.  God has called us for a much higher work.  Let us step up to the work He has called us to do and let others worry about "shoveling the snow" in this present world.

Isn't this part this part of God's Good News?  

 

 

         6–9       “This is the kind of fast day I’m after:

                 to break the chains of injustice,

                 get rid of exploitation in the workplace,

                 free the oppressed,

                 cancel debts.

                 What I’m interested in seeing you do is:

                 sharing your food with the hungry,

                 inviting the homeless poor into your homes,

                 putting clothes on the shivering ill-clad,

                 being available to your own families.

                 Do this and the lights will turn on,

                 and your lives will turn around at once.

                 Your righteousness will pave your way.

                 The GOD of glory will secure your passage.

                 Then when you pray, GOD will answer.

                 You’ll call out for help and I’ll say, ‘Here I am.’

 

Peterson, E. H. (2005). The Message: the Bible in contemporary language (Is 58:6–9). Colorado Springs, CO: NavPress.

 

Or as someone said, are we so heavenly-minded so that we are no earthly good?

[Gerr]

 

 

I do take exception to church leaders, such as pastors and conference employees, getting involved with politics dealing with issues beyond religious freedom.  I think as a church we need to set a clear example of what seperation of church and state are.  Our members as individuals, and citizens of their repsective countries, are free to be civicly involved in the democratic process.  Yet I think it a mistake to shovel snow when we gather together as a religious organization.  I would never encourage the church, as an organization, to donate money to a political cause as I have done as an indiviual.

 

In this instance we have the chaplin of the US Senate.  He serves both Republicans and Democrats and is admired by many outside of the Senate in both public life and the life of the church.  Now when he takes a position on a political hot topic (regardless what it is) he is going to lose influence with one group of people.  Those whose admiration he retains, he would have retained even without taking the controversial issue.  So he gains nothing.  His ability to influence others for Christ is dimenished by getting involved with the muck of politics.

 

 

On political issues, I agree with you that our church as an organization should not get involved.  I realize that often times the demarcation lines between justice and politics can be blurred.  But the   silence of the church on clear issues of justice/injustice detracts from her moral authority, imo.   

[lazarus]

Lyndon, I do find it amusing and ironic  that you would shout (albeit only online) after someone making a logical deduction from the nature of you posting but them condemn those who want to shout about someone's wrongful death. I'm glad to see you have "concerns" about the judicial system. Who are the people who are disproportionately affected by wrongful convictions?

[lazarus]

As Adventists, we have a message and it isn't to campaign against abortion or racial profiling.  Let people from other denominations fight against those issues.  God has called us for a much higher work.  Let us step up to the work He has called us to do and let others worry about "shoveling the snow" in this present world.

 

IMHO, shoveling snow is an awful and ridiculous analogy. I have black boys all around me who could end up on the wrong end of a police encounter. Thankfully for black Americans there were white Christians who were willing to get involved in the political process to change America.

[LifeHiscost]

IMHO, shoveling snow is an awful and ridiculous analogy. I have black boys all around me who could end up on the wrong end of a police encounter. Thankfully for black Americans there were white Christians who were willing to get involved in the political process to change America.

As I understand the Lord's instructions, we are suppose to concentrate upon our own lack before we make effort to correct the others which providence brings to our attention.

 

…2"For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you. 3"Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? 4"Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' and behold, the log is in your own eye?…Matt 7

 

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[lazarus]

Live, you left out verse 5....

 

5Hypocrite! First get rid of the log in your own eye; then you will see well enough to deal with the speck in your friend’s eye. Jesus is saying make sure your vision is clear.

 

Here's a good text:

 

 2 Timothy 1I solemnly urge you in the presence of God and Christ Jesus, who will someday judge the living and the dead when he appears to set up his Kingdom: 2Preach the word of God. Be prepared, whether the time is favorable or not. Patiently correct, rebuke, and encourage your people with good teaching.

3For a time is coming when people will no longer listen to sound and wholesome teaching. They will follow their own desires and will look for teachers who will tell them whatever their itching ears want to hear. 4They will reject the truth and chase after myths.

5But you should keep a clear mind in every situation. Don’t be afraid of suffering for the Lord. Work at telling others the Good News, and fully carry out the ministry God has given you.

[Tom Wetmore]

On political issues, I agree with you that our church as an organization should not get involved.  I realize that often times the demarcation lines between justice and politics can be blurred.  But the   silence of the church on clear issues of justice/injustice detracts from her moral authority, imo.

Gerry, I wholeheartedly agree with you on this, as well as your post (#44) just before it. Jesus' proclaimation of his mission is the good news we too should be spreading in both word and deed, just as He did.

The issue at hand is not a political issue. Sadly, some seek to politicize it though. That blurring does a serious disservice to society. That some seek to politicize the serious social issues of our time only diminishes us all. The confusion that politics creates is reason enough for keeping the wall of separation between the church and politics solid and secure. But the church cannot avoid its voice and actions as a a source of moral authority and action just because others have co opted a moral/social/justice issue for political purposes.

[Dr. Shane]

Perception is reality.  When the church, its leaders or its pastors take a position on issues, percieved by the masses as political, (except in cases of religious liberty) it serves to polarize the church and thus reduces our influence in reaching the lost with the gospel message.

 

Our members, as individuals, are free to dedicate themselves to saving the whales, fighting for gay marriage, pushing to ban abortion or whatever cherished political cause they choose to embrace is.  However the church, as an organization, and those representing it, should stay focused on the sole cause of spreading the message of eternal life to the lost.  Time is short.  Jesus is coming soon.  That is the message God has given to His end-time church.

[Dr. Shane]

A significant part of this program is caused by the media themselves. It is quite shameful the way media has been behaving through this whole thing, and I feel they are largely to blame. They pick and choose what they will make big deals out of and ignore reverse situations of nearly the same acts.

 

Most news decisions are made based on what will bring in ratings.  It is all about making money.  And that is not a secret.  It is common knowledge how the media works and how corrupt it is.  And yet we look around and see brothers and sisters in God's Seventh-day Adventist church getting all worked up like puppets controlled by strings.  That is what is really sad to me.

 

We are living during a period of time with incredible freedom.  The "civil rights" struggles people get worked up about today pale in comparison to what conditions have been for most of human history.  We are freer and enjoy more rights as a society than perhaps any society that has ever existed on the planet before us.  But that message doesn't bring in a lot of ratings. 

[CoAspen]

 

However the church, as an organization, and those representing it, should stay focused on the sole cause of spreading the message of eternal life to the lost.

If I understand you correctly, You are saying the church should not speak out on social issues??

ht side

I look at the ministry of Christ and see him being very much involved. I also see His words saying the same thing. Being on the side of justice speaks volumes about ones beliefs. The opposite is also true, keep silent about those in need of justice while preaching "God loves you", ain't very impressive! If one is going to talk about love than it must also be demonstrated to be believed. Just because an issue becomes politicized should not stop the .org letting the world know they can also walk their talk.

[Dr. Shane]

The Adventist church tends to be above the muck of politics.  For many years I was passionate about politics and still love to follow it.  I started college as a political science major.  I have volunteered on many political campaigns over the years and was a paid employee of one Congressional campaign.  So, through the years, I recieved a few lectures from Adventist pastors and the old-timers.  I even attended political conventions on the Sabbath which some did not approve of.  So while, as an individual I was very involved in politics, none of the local churches I associated with were.

 

Upon moving to Texas, a local group of churches was campaigning for a law to ban stip clubs from the city.  The group was signing up several churches, both Protestant and Catholic.  They came to our church and our pastor brought it to us.  I called the religious liberty department at the GC and discussed it with them.  They echoed what so many people had told me during my poltically-active years.  We don't want to get involved with those controversial issues.  Do Adventists believe it is sinful to go to strip clubs and watch the ladies?  Yes, of course we do.  Do we think the civil government should pass laws to ban that activity?  No!  As a religious organization, we don't have an opinion on that.  Now after sharing that with our local pastor, he would always tease me about liking the stippers.

[Gerr]

IMHO, shoveling snow is an awful and ridiculous analogy. I have black boys all around me who could end up on the wrong end of a police encounter. Thankfully for black Americans there were white Christians who were willing to get involved in the political process to change America.

I hope you have already told your boys to always be very respectful in any encounter with anyone, but ESPECIALLY with law enforcement officers.  I seriously doubt that they would ever have a problem if they do this.