Senate Chaplain makes a stand

[lazarus]

 

What a lot of this controversy deals with is mobs wanting to commit violence and destruction of personal property. It involves police protecting themselves from attack. It involves people having no respect for police.

 

Perhaps for you this is the nature of the controversy. The looting and rioting is done by a minority and is incidental. The real concern is police brutality and the lack of respect some police have for people's lives.

 

 

 Little is said about the recent killing of a white man by a black police officer. I am not going to go riot about it all, I prefer to let the legal process work it way through the case.

 

 

Probably because this kind of occurrence is very rare and there is no doubt that if he did something wrong that he will be get hat he deserves. The choice is not to riot or not to riot. There is protest and political pressure which is what the vast majority of people and involved in . Didn;t hear about rioting in NY, DC, LA, Seattle etc. You prefer to let the legal process work because you trust it.

 

 

 

 I would suggest people react calmly to a police officer stopping them.

i Would suggest that that strategy is naive. Police are not nice because you are nice. I have never been rude to a police officer but have had them be rude and disrespectful and insulting. Met a lot of great cops but some nasty ones too.

[lazarus]

Perception is reality.  When the church, its leaders or its pastors take a position on issues, percieved by the masses as political, (except in cases of religious liberty) it serves to polarize the church and thus reduces our influence in reaching the lost with the gospel message.

 

There were many Christians who sat on the sidelines during the civil rights movement and even supported continued discrimination. Their influence was certainly reduced and probably was a factor in the racial splits in the Methodist church and the fact that have separate conferences in our own church. The church is polarized because white Christians refused to stand up for what is right.

[lazarus]

I hope you have already told your boys to always be very respectful in any encounter with anyone, but ESPECIALLY with law enforcement officers.  I seriously doubt that they would ever have a problem if they do this. 

 

Respectfully, I believe this is a naive position to take. As I posted previously, I have never been disrespectful to an officer but have been disrespected on a number of occasions. Wake up, there are nasty police officers out there!

[LifeHiscost]

Respectfully, I believe.............  there a nasty.... out there!

As there is in any organization. Some just have more power than others. Take your pick.

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=quotes+power+corrupts&biw=1894&bih=899&tbm=isch&imgil=cqqkH4KhmzHOJM%253A%253BDKxtyu5SoTYvAM%253Bhttps%25253A%25252F%25252Fwww.flickr.com%25252Fphotos%25252F57037724%252540N03%25252F8207444408%25252F&source=iu&pf=m&fir=cqqkH4KhmzHOJM%253A%252CDKxtyu5SoTYvAM%252C_&usg=__WygRMaHnvT0VdRBEgKZPkPtbWio%3D&ved=0CDQQyjc&ei=huihVOziDcS0ggT-pIS4BQ#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=cqqkH4KhmzHOJM%253A%3BDKxtyu5SoTYvAM%3Bhttps%253A%252F%252Fc1.staticflickr.com%252F9%252F8349%252F8207444408_bc52e69c40.jpg%3Bhttps%253A%252F%252Fwww.flickr.com%252Fphotos%252F57037724%2540N03%252F8207444408%252F%3B500%3B313

 

God is Love!   Jesus saves! 

[bonnie]

Respectfully, I believe this is a naive position to take. As I posted previously, I have never been disrespectful to an officer but have been disrespected on a number of occasions. Wake up, there are nasty police officers out there!

And you believe that is based solely on the color of your skin?   My husband is white and has encountered disrespectful officers. 

[phkrause]

And so have I. Again and again and again!! But you know what? They are in the minority, thank God.

[Dr. Shane]

I was wrongfully arrested and put in jail.  The charges were later dismissed but the whole incident cost me $2,500.  Now I am white and the officier was not but I am convinced that had nothing to do with it.  The incident did teach me how to behave around a police officier and I am quite sure that given the opportunity to do it again, I wouldn't be arrested again.  Yes, the system could be improved and it is fine to peacefully demonstrate for change.  However from a historical prespective, in what other period of history have we enjoyed so much freedom?  There has been a lot of change and things are much better today than in past periods of history.

 

But the question is if our high-profile church leaders and pastors should be taking positions on political matters.  Did the apostles take a position against slavery?  No.  Were they wrong to take the position they did?  From what I have read, there were more slaves in the Roman empire than free men.

[Gerr]

Respectfully, I believe this is a naive position to take. As I posted previously, I have never been disrespectful to an officer but have been disrespected on a number of occasions. Wake up, there are nasty police officers out there!

I am a minority, and I have had my share of traffic tickets over the years.  I have never been disrespected.  Maybe because I have always shown respect for the cops.

The recent killing of blacks by police have a common thread.  Michael Brown did not respect the officer's command to get off the middle of the street.  In fact, the forensics show he assaulted the policeman.  Mr. Garner resisted arrest.  That 12 yo kid in Cleveland was pointing a realistic toy gun around.  So did that other young man shot at a gas station in Ferguson, only it was a real pistol he was pointing at the officer.

[lazarus]

.  However from a historical prespective, in what other period of history have we enjoyed so much freedom?  There has been a lot of change and things are much better today than in past periods of history.

 Bull Connor certainly could have made the same argument against anti-segregationist demonstrators.

 

I'm thankful for the Christians who were willing to oppose slavery. It would be a very different America if it were not for them.

[lazarus]

Gerry, do you disbelieve the people on this thread who have encountered disrespectful officers or were they really being nasty to the officer and didn't realize it.

 

Excessive force is still against the law.

[Gerr]

I was wrongfully arrested and put in jail.  The charges were later dismissed but the whole incident cost me $2,500.  Now I am white and the officier was not but I am convinced that had nothing to do with it.  The incident did teach me how to behave around a police officier and I am quite sure that given the opportunity to do it again, I wouldn't be arrested again.  Yes, the system could be improved and it is fine to peacefully demonstrate for change.  However from a historical prespective, in what other period of history have we enjoyed so much freedom?  There has been a lot of change and things are much better today than in past periods of history.

 

But the question is if our high-profile church leaders and pastors should be taking positions on political matters.  Did the apostles take a position against slavery?  No.  Were they wrong to take the position they did?  From what I have read, there were more slaves in the Roman empire than free men.

 

Gerry, do you disbelieve the people on this thread who have encountered disrespectful officers or were they really being nasty to the officer and didn't realize it.

 

Excessive force is still against the law.

No, I'm not so naive  as to believe that there are not police officers who are drunk with the little power and authority that they have.  Even pastors, elders, and church officers are not immune to the enchanting, corrupting, influence of power.  But I can guaranty you that if you respond in kind, sparks will fly and guess who will lose? 

 

And what is excessive force?  A policeman puts his life on the line every time he puts on a uniform.  If you are a policeman and someone is pointing a gun a you, do you shoot him in the leg or shoot him where he can't shoot back?  In our crime infested and heavily armed society, I can't fault the police for assuming that every belligerent person and resists what he tells him to do has no good intent and may be armed.  The level of civility I believe, has plummeted all around, and the level of disrespect has skyrocketed.  Just look at the epithets leveled at the president of the USA!  And people chanting, "What do we want?  Dead cops!" ???

[Gerr]

I was wrongfully arrested and put in jail.  The charges were later dismissed but the whole incident cost me $2,500.  Now I am white and the officier was not but I am convinced that had nothing to do with it.  The incident did teach me how to behave around a police officier and I am quite sure that given the opportunity to do it again, I wouldn't be arrested again.  Yes, the system could be improved and it is fine to peacefully demonstrate for change.  However from a historical prespective, in what other period of history have we enjoyed so much freedom?  There has been a lot of change and things are much better today than in past periods of history.

 

But the question is if our high-profile church leaders and pastors should be taking positions on political matters.  Did the apostles take a position against slavery?  No.  Were they wrong to take the position they did?  From what I have read, there were more slaves in the Roman empire than free men.

The apostles had many important things to do, but what took supreme priority?  The preaching of the gospel.  There was issue of inequity in the distribution in the early church too, but the apostles did not want  waiting on tables to distract them from that priority.  Neither did they neglect it.  They did not attack slavery head-on.  Imo, they understood that preaching the gospel was more important because it struck at the heart of slavery.  Paul could write to Philemon later on to tell him not to receive Onesimus no longer as a slave but as a brother!  And did not our Lord say, reiterating the OT, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself?"  Isn't this striking at the very foundations of slavery?  Besides, in the context of the times, which was more important, better treatment of slaves or emancipation? What would have happened if the millions of slaves were suddenly given freedom?

[Dr. Shane]

The apostles had many important things to do, but what took supreme priority?  The preaching of the gospel.

 Thank you for your thoughtful response.  How does that influence us today?  The Adventist church does a lot.  Look at the work done by our hospitals.  Consider the work done by ADRA.  Ponder the work done by prison ministries.  Think about all the work done by community services on local levels.  Let's not forget the work being done by our Pathfinder and Adventurer organizations.  Our church is doing incredible things in the lives of thousands, if not millions, of people.  Will getting involved in political struggles of the dat help or hinder the gospel work we are doing?

 

Does God need His Seventh-day Adventist church to become politically involved in the struggles of the day or might God be able to use His children in other denominations?  This is not to hand off the dirty work to others that may or may not be doing it.  We see others doing it.  So it is not an issue that if we don't do it, it won't get done.  It becomes an issue about joining others that are already doing it.  The political issue that other denominations do seem to ignore is religious liberty and that is where the SDA church is willing to focus its political message  - as it should.

[lazarus]

The apostles had many important things to do, but what took supreme priority? The preaching of the gospel.

The SDA pastors who took part in the Ferguson protests in DC and NY still preached that Sabbath, still took prayer meeting taught Sabbath school etc. I met with on ministerial director the day after he was with his daughter in DC. He was still engaged in the work of the ministry. Standing up for justice is ministry. They are not mutually exclusive, they go hand in hand.

Martin Luther KIng did not neglect the work of the gospel, his work was the one and the same. What follows is a lengthy but very prescient commentary on the white church which I see represented in the comments here:

When I was suddenly catapulted into the leadership of the bus protest in Montgomery, Alabama, a few years ago, I felt we would be supported by the white church. I felt that the white ministers, priests and rabbis of the South would be among our strongest allies. Instead, some have been outright opponents, refusing to understand the freedom movement and misrepresenting its leaders; all too many others have been more cautious than courageous and have remained silent behind the anesthetizing security of stained glass windows.

In spite of my shattered dreams, I came to Birmingham with the hope that the white religious leadership of this community would see the justice of our cause and, with deep moral concern, would serve as the channel through which our just grievances could reach the power structure. I had hoped that each of you would understand. But again I have been disappointed.

I have heard numerous southern religious leaders admonish their worshipers to comply with a desegregation decision because it is the law, but I have longed to hear white ministers declare: "Follow this decree because integration is morally right and because the Negro is your brother." In the midst of blatant injustices inflicted upon the Negro, I have watched white churchmen stand on the sideline and mouth pious irrelevancies and sanctimonious trivialities. In the midst of a mighty struggle to rid our nation of racial and economic injustice, I have heard many ministers say: "Those are social issues, with which the gospel has no real concern." And I have watched many churches commit themselves to a completely other worldly religion which makes a strange, un-Biblical distinction between body and soul, between the sacred and the secular.

I have traveled the length and breadth of Alabama, Mississippi and all the other southern states. On sweltering summer days and crisp autumn mornings I have looked at the South's beautiful churches with their lofty spires pointing heavenward. I have beheld the impressive outlines of her massive religious education buildings. Over and over I have found myself asking: "What kind of people worship here? Who is their God? Where were their voices when the lips of Governor Barnett dripped with words of interposition and nullification? Where were they when Governor Wallace gave a clarion call for defiance and hatred? Where were their voices of support when bruised and weary Negro men and women decided to rise from the dark dungeons of complacency to the bright hills of creative protest?"

Yes, these questions are still in my mind. In deep disappointment I have wept over the laxity of the church. But be assured that my tears have been tears of love. There can be no deep disappointment where there is not deep love. Yes, I love the church. How could I do otherwise? I am in the rather unique position of being the son, the grandson and the great grandson of preachers. Yes, I see the church as the body of Christ. But, oh! How we have blemished and scarred that body through social neglect and through fear of being nonconformists.

There was a time when the church was very powerful--in the time when the early Christians rejoiced at being deemed worthy to suffer for what they believed. In those days the church was not merely a thermometer that recorded the ideas and principles of popular opinion; it was a thermostat that transformed the mores of society. Whenever the early Christians entered a town, the people in power became disturbed and immediately sought to convict the Christians for being "disturbers of the peace" and "outside agitators."' But the Christians pressed on, in the conviction that they were "a colony of heaven," called to obey God rather than man. Small in number, they were big in commitment. They were too God-intoxicated to be "astronomically intimidated." By their effort and example they brought an end to such ancient evils as infanticide and gladiatorial contests. Things are different now. So often the contemporary church is a weak, ineffectual voice with an uncertain sound. So often it is an archdefender of the status quo. Far from being disturbed by the presence of the church, the power structure of the average community is consoled by the church's silent--and often even vocal--sanction of things as they are.

But the judgment of God is upon the church as never before. If today's church does not recapture the sacrificial spirit of the early church, it will lose its authenticity, forfeit the loyalty of millions, and be dismissed as an irrelevant social club with no meaning for the twentieth century. (Letter from a Birmingham Jail)

Below are some powerful scriptures that describe God's passion for justice:

“I hate, I despise your feasts, and I take no delight in your solemn assemblies. Even though you offer me your burnt offerings and cereal offerings, I will not accept them, and the peace offerings of your fatted beasts I will not look upon. Take away from me the noise of your songs; to the melody of your harps I will not listen. But let justice roll down like waters, and righteousness like an overflowing stream” (5:21-24).

I wonder what God thinks of our hymn singing and scripture readings when we close our ears to the cries of injustice?

“Seek good and not evil, that you may live; and so the Lord, the God of hosts, will be with you, as you have said. Hate evil and love good and establish justice at the gate; it may be that the Lord, the God of hosts, will be gracious to the remnant of Joseph” (5:14-15).

“The Spirit of the Lord is upon me,

because he has anointed me

to bring glad tidings to the poor.

He has sent me to proclaim liberty to captives

and recovery of sight to the blind,

to let the oppressed go free” (4:18; cf. Isaiah 61:1).

[lazarus]

 Thank you for your thoughtful response.  How does that influence us today?  The Adventist church does a lot.  Look at the work done by our hospitals.  Consider the work done by ADRA.  Ponder the work done by prison ministries.  Think about all the work done by community services on local levels.  Let's not forget the work being done by our Pathfinder and Adventurer organizations.  Our church is doing incredible things in the lives of thousands, if not millions, of people.  Will getting involved in political struggles of the dat help or hinder the gospel work we are doing?

Adventist doctors, prison ministry leaders, pathfinder leaders and community service leaders have all been involved in raising their voices and calling for justice and continue to do their work. Fighting for a more just society is the essence of their work. When my pathfinder director says " hands up" he is standing up for my pathfinders. Its that simple.

[lazarus]

It seems that, in the midst of black Christian outcry in 2013 (and 2014), the majority of white Christians pressed the snooze button on racial justice, sleepwalking into their churches where an individualistic gospel that doesn’t call them to say or do anything about racial injustice is preached, where white culture, rather than Christ, reigns supreme, and where the problems and perspectives of black people are ignored.

 

http://www.christianitytoday.com/amyjuliabecker/2014/august/white-christians-its-time-to-stand-in-solidarity-with-your-.html?paging=off

[Dr. Shane]

The question is if getting politically involved will help or hinder the cause.  When a Pathfinder director gets politically involved, as part of his ministry (not just as an individual), does his ministry then lead more people to Christ than it would have otherwise OR does it become a stumbling block to those who disagree with his politics and lead people away from Christ than may have been won had he kept the church out of politics?

 

It isn't about us.  It is about Him.  How do we best bring Him glory and lead lost souls to Him?  What if our politics results in getting some bad laws changed but in the cost is influencing souls away from Christ that could have been won?  Each individual has the right to get involved in politics, as an individual and an active citizen of a democratic republic.  However to get the church involved is something that should be avoided unless the church, as an organization, has voted together to get involved as an organization.  If a pastor feels drawn into politics he or she may want to really examine their calling.  I believe God does call men and women into politics but it is a distinct and different calling than is the ministry.  I believe in a strong seperation of church and state as the foundation of religious liberty.

[lazarus]

The question is if getting politically involved will help or hinder the cause.  When a Pathfinder director gets politically involved, as part of his ministry (not just as an individual), does his ministry then lead more people to Christ than it would have otherwise OR does it become a stumbling block to those who disagree with his politics and lead people away from Christ than may have been won had he kept the church out of politics?

If you are a white person who doesn't see that there is a problem with black men and the police it may very well hinder the cause. If you are a black mother who is having her son counseled by the pastor they it may well draw her to the church. The preaching of truth divides. It sometimes sets people against each other. I have a friend who just came back from doing a men's ministry weekend in Ferguson.  He did some good work out there talking to the men of the church and the community. Some folks may say he should not have gone and maybe upset. The son of man came to seek and to save that which was lost.

 

 

It isn't about us.  It is about Him.  How do we best bring Him glory and lead lost souls to Him?  What if our politics results in getting some bad laws changed but in the cost is influencing souls away from Christ that could have been won?  Each individual has the right to get involved in politics, as an individual and an active citizen of a democratic republic.  However to get the church involved is something that should be avoided unless the church, as an organization, has voted together to get involved as an organization.  If a pastor feels drawn into politics he or she may want to really examine their calling.  I believe God does call men and women into politics but it is a distinct and different calling than is the ministry.  I believe in a strong seperation of church and state as the foundation of religious liberty.

 

"Its isn't about us, it's about Him" ......What does that mean? It's the kind of phrase that has been used so often as to be virtually without meaning.  How about this: "And the King will say, 'I tell you the truth, when you did it to one of the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were doing it to me!' Matthew 25:40. When we stand up for others  and help others it becomes about him. To seek justice for those who have been unlawfully killed is to do it for him. That's biblical.

 

You seem to be hung up on the word politics. There is a lot of politics in the church. Do you think the machinations that go on at GC sessions is ministry? It politics at it best and worst.  What's politics to you is ministry to me.

 

Is it politics to do a funeral for a boy shot by a local gang and call the police to be fair in their investigations? Is it politics to lead a prayer outside the justice department in DC? Is it politics to have a gang awareness night with the DA at your church and challenge the police to deploy more resources in your area? Is it politics to be out on the street with the people who are protesting? Some people think ministry is just preaching a sermon, giving out tracks, going to potluck, going to the nursing home, sabbath school etc. Ministry, for me, involves being on the streets where the people are, talking to them, praying with them, shouting with them, feeling with them. Sounds like some stuff I read in the gospels. Many white Christians

 

I owe my opportunity to pastor to Christians who were not afraid of the dirty work of standing up for justice. I served as a pastor in an Adventist church in DC that used to turn away black SDA's. Getting a position there is the fruit of the labor of those who knew what the OT prophets knew about justice.

[Dr. Shane]

I don't get hung up on race.  I am white.  I was raised in poverty in a poor Vietnamese neighborhood in Seattle.  I joined the Army when I was 18 where I was taught to be color-blind - everyone is green.  When I attended college my best friend was a black Adventist brother.  He was later the bestman at my wedding.  I married a Hispanic woman and have two bi-racial children.  I live on the county line of the two poorest counties in the United States - located in the tip of southern Texas.  White people make up less than 10% of the population here.  My son has white skin and has been teased about it for many years.  He has come home crying at times and angry at others and has told me I ruined his life by giving him white skin.  I know the so-called racial minorites can be every bit as mean to white kids as white kids, in the past, were to their ancestors.  Racism knows no color.  I choose not to see race.  I believe a man should be judged by the content of his charchter and not the color of his skin.

 

Let's say I decide to convince my local Seventh-day Adventist church to host a TEA Party ralley.  Everyone comes out with veggie-dogs and talks about how bad Obama is for the country.  Well, I guess we might draw some like-minded people to Christ.  Right?  However we may push even more away from Him and especially away from the Seventh-day Adventist movement.  So what do we do?  Instead of hosting a TEA Party ralley we host a healthfare.  Contrast the difference there.  When we embrace hot poltical issues, as an organization, the only people we attract are those that agree with our politics and even if that is what draws them to us, their motives are dubious.  My concern about politics has nothing to do with race.  I don't care if they are racial politics, educational politics, economic politics, international politics, etc.  If the public percieves an issue as political and is divided over it, I see no benefit to the gospel to allow the church to get sucked into it. 

 

There is a lot of injustice in the world.  Yes some cops treat some suspects wrongfully.  There are also prisoner guards that treat prisoners wrongfully.  In many parts of the world, women are treated worse than racial minorities.  We have an illegal sex trade going being fed by out pourous borders.  We have a drug war going on in Mexico being fueled by American capitalism.  And if one wants to worry about injustice to blacks... how many black children are being aborted every year by an abortion industry that targets black neighborhoods?  Injustice abounds.  Can we make a difference?  Maybe we can but we have only 24 hours in a day.  Every hour I spend messing around with politics I could be doing something else.  What is true religion?  Feeding the orphans?  Helping the widows? Or demonstrating to draw attention to our most recent cherished poltical cause?  I shoveled a lot of snow in my younger days.  God has a higher calling for me now - as He always has had for His church.  The snow still needs to get shoveled but God can use someone else with a lesser calling than me.  Jesus is coming.  Lift up the trumpet and load let it ring.  Warn the people.   People get ready! A train is coming!

[lazarus]

" I believe a man should be judged by the content of his charchter and not the color of his skin."

 

It's quite odd that you would quote from a speech of a man that did the things and did them in a may that you seem to condemn. The criticisms that were leveled at him by white Christians are the same ones you are leveling now. 

 

Posting again for clarity:

 

So often the contemporary church is a weak, ineffectual voice with an uncertain sound. So often it is an archdefender of the status quo. Far from being disturbed by the presence of the church, the power structure of the average community is consoled by the church's silent--and often even vocal--sanction of things as they are.

But the judgment of God is upon the church as never before. If today's church does not recapture the sacrificial spirit of the early church, it will lose its authenticity, forfeit the loyalty of millions, and be dismissed as an irrelevant social club with no meaning for the twentieth century.

[Dr. Shane]

I don't disagree with Martin Luther King Jr's non-violent approach at all.  I disagree with the Adventist church becoming involved in politics percisely because God is able to raise non-Adventists, like King, to shovel the snow.  Where I disagree with King was when he became anti-war.  King lost a lot of political influence when he started speaking out about the Vietnam War.  While he was right about Vietnam, it hurt him politically and thus he could accomplish less for civil rights.  King's calling was to fight for civil rights.  Our church's calling is to warn the world that Jesus is coming soon.

 

I believe that God has called Adventists into politics but they have not been church leaders.  Shelia Jackson Lee is currently an Adventist congresswoman.  She has not served in church leadership.  Roscoe Bartlett was an Adventist congressman.  He was not part of church leadership either.  Dr. Raul Ruiz is currenly an Adventist congressman.  He was not part of church leadership either.  When God does call Adventists to get into politics, I don't see Him calling actively-employed pastors or General Conference employees.  Now Dr. Ben Carson is considering running for president and he isn't part of church leadership either.

[Tom Wetmore]

Shane, Laz is correct in his observation about you being hung up on mixing this up with politics. This is not a political issue. So, stop trying to turn it into one.

Trying to label a matter of social justice, people's treatment of one another, as a political issue in order to justify not getting involved is a cop out. But more importantly, it bastardizes a very essential point of the gospel as Jesus himself portrayed it in both word and deed. Neglecting that aspect of the gospel message greatly limits the effectiveness of the church in the very society it is meant to reach and truly dilutes the essential quality that gospel is to bring good news and that it has power to change lives and the community in which the beleivers live for the better

[Gerr]

The SDA pastors who took part in the Ferguson protests in DC and NY still preached that Sabbath, still took prayer meeting taught Sabbath school etc. I met with on ministerial director the day after he was with his daughter in DC. He was still engaged in the work of the ministry. Standing up for justice is ministry. They are not mutually exclusive, they go hand in hand.

Martin Luther KIng did not neglect the work of the gospel, his work was the one and the same. What follows is a lengthy but very prescient commentary on the white church which I see represented in the comments here:

Hey, Laz, did you miss my quote from Isa 58?

[Dr. Shane]

Shane, Laz is correct in his observation about you being hung up on mixing this up with politics.

 

What do all the people protesting want?  Do they want our legislative bodies to pass new laws or our judicial bodies to enforce existing laws?  Or do they want our media outlets to broadcast friendly programs?  Politics, by definition, is organized control over a human community, particularly by a state.

 

Now I could be wrong because I haven't had time to watch the news in over three years.  I don't know any details of this Fergussen case.  I have just heard guys at work talk about it.  My understanding is that these protestors are upset about a decision from a grand jury not to prosecute a law officer.  If that is correct, this is political.  A grand jury is part of  a civil government that exercises control over a human population.  If these protestors are trying to get NBC or CBS to stop airing TV programs with cops abusing blacks, then I agree, it is not a political issue.  My understanding was that this is about a grand jury decision.  Feel free to correct any misunderstanding I have.

 

I am just thinking that it would have been wrong for Mark Finely, or another well-known Adventist figure at the time, to take a public position after the verdict of OJ Simpson to cry for justice for Nicole.  A lot of people didn't like OJ being found not guilty for murdering his wife and felt it was a case of injustice to let a guilty man go free.  However the Seventh-day Adventist church's mission is not to get involved in verdicts rendered by our courts unless they are a matter of religious liberty.  Now the OJ verdict was a non-partisan issue and the same seems to be true with the Fergussen grand jury decision.  It is not a Republican verses Democrat issue.  It is, as has been said, a social justice or law enforcement issue.  But that doesn't take it away from the rhleam of politics.  Social justice is political when a civil government is involved.  Social justice is not political when it is being dealth with in the private sector by churches, charities, media outlets, etc.  It is the involvment of a civil government in an effort to control humans (in this case "bad cops") that makes something political.

[Dr. Shane]

I have been a member of an anonymous 12-Step recovery group for nearly 30 years.  The group promotes the belief in God, or a Higher Power (capitalized), and most newcomers first arriving at group meetings seeking help are very resistant to the God concept.  I have the honor of sharing my faith with them.  A common criticism of churches I have heard over and over throughout the years is that of politics.  The political involvement of people like Pat Robertson and James Dobson have turned many skeptics and unbelievers away from Christianity and made eastern religions much more attractive.  In sharing my faith, I have told scores of people that the Adventist church, as an organization, does not get involved in politics - with the exception of religions liberty.  I often use abortion as an example.  I share with them our moral position on abortion but the fact we do not have a political position and do not tell our members how to vote.  Of course, some on this forum may not consider abortion a "political" issue as it is really a human rights issue but I digress.  It didn't take Stan long to turn the politics section on this forum into a private forum and that only makes sense.  As individuals we are free to get involved with politics and discuss the issues of the day but as an organization we have a much higher calling.