sodom When I hear the Story of Sodom!

May 7, 2015

Sorry Gay, but I don't see that at all!!

I think you may have been out of the loop. It all started in another Thread and has worked its way here. I wont put up the quotes and Gregory Matthews had to step in calling him out as well as deleting posts in part, I guess. I may have missed a few things as well.

and Hello pkrause

Good to meet you.

Edited May 7, 2015 by GayatfootofCross

May 7, 2015

Sorry Gay, but I don't see that at all!!

Uhh.. just realized you may think I was disagreeing with brotherly love's contribution to the thread regarding his understanding of the Story in Genesis 19!

I notice miscommunication abounds on the cold hard internet where we perceive things people say differently.

I welcome all the thoughts here. We all highlight what means most to us in every Bible Story.

Have you ever noticed that in Sabbath School..

pkrause ?

May 7, 2015

Hello brotherly love

Thank you for pointing that out.Did you see the name of my thread?

You have already stated you know all about my life and my standing before God many times. I believe a root of bitterness has settled in your heart about me and therefore in your eyes everything I share is wrong.Even when I only talk about Sodom.

I wish you nothing but blessings.

And ask for your forgiveness

I have offended you.

God Bless you again,brotherly love

i understand why you have to resort to emotional methods, because this is all you have to use at this moment. I have no bitterness for you-just compassion and concern. This is not about winning arguments either, this is a crucial topic that revisionists are trying to twist in order to change the commandments of the Bible.

May 7, 2015

i understand why you have to resort to emotional methods, because this is all you have to use at this moment. I have no bitterness for you-just compassion and concern. This is not about winning arguments either, this is a crucial topic that revisionists are trying to twist in order to change the commandments of the Bible.

Actually asking for forgiveness is scriptural,

That is a choice I make when I encounter a misunderstanding.

And God told me to bring me to bring the Spirit of Forgiveness.

You call them emotional methods I call them being a Christian.

And there is no argument with whatever you bring theologically wise.

And I wont be arguing about about what I see in this story.

We are here to share together with JESUS as our foundation.

Thank you for not resorting to evil surmising/imagination/speculation about me in this thread.

As you have done in the other.

We can start fresh, brother!

God Bless you brotherly love.

Edited May 7, 2015 by GayatfootofCross

May 7, 2015

Actually asking for forgiveness is scriptural,

That is a choice I make when I encounter a misunderstanding.

And God told me to bring me to bring the Spirit of Forgiveness.

You call them emotional methods I call them being a Christian.

And there is no argument with whatever you bring theologically wise.

And I wont be arguing about about what I see in this story.

We are here to share together with JESUS as our foundation.

Thank you for not resorting to evil surmising/imagination/speculation about me in this thread.

As you have done in the other.

We can start fresh, brother!

God Bless you brotherly love.

You have never given a sound response to any of these so called misunderstandings, instead you repeat cryptic/poetic cliches time and time again. I do have experience on this topic, and so far you have been a perfect fit with very predictable responses.

Edited May 7, 2015 by brotherly love

May 7, 2015

You have never given a sound response to any of these so called misunderstandings, instead you repeat cryptic/poetic cliches time and time again. I do have experience on this topic, and so far you have been a perfect fit with very predictable responses.

brotherly love

I may not be able to give what you ask for.

I am not here for you? So what do we do now?

You have attacked everything I say and how I say it repeatedly. God did not call me to protect my reputation.

So where do we go from here?

I won't be speaking differently. So there goes that.

The roll you have put yourself over me looks good on you?

Your unkind words can not touch me, no matter how you try.

God's Blessings!

Edited May 7, 2015 by GayatfootofCross

May 7, 2015

The LORD gave several different laws for Israel, which we today understand were for the purpose of keeping Israel healthy, and giving them offspring.
I will give a few examples.

1. Men were NOT to have sex with their wives when they were menstruating, and for 7 days following. (We understand today that the cervix is more open, and would allow any bacteria to travel more easily into the womb, and from there into the abdomen.) (We also know that waiting 14 days from the start of menses, puts a woman at her MOST FERTILE time. Children back then, were understood to be a BLESSING from God.)

2. Men were NOT to have sex with their wives for a period of time after childbirth. (Same reason.)

3. Men were to be circumcised. (We know from medical records beginning at WWI, that circumcised men contracted less venereal disease. And we know today, that their wives have a MUCH lower incidence of cervical cancer.) And yes - I believe it was also a symbolic prophecy. God can accomplish two purposes at the same time.

4. Men were NOT to have sex with their mother, sister, aunt, grand daughter, daughter-in-law, mother-in-law, sister-in-law or anyone "near of kin". (Yes - I know that Moses married his aunt, and Abraham his half sister. The LORD was setting a new standard.)

5. A man was NOT to have sex with another man in the same manner, in which he had sex with a women. (Health reasons already sited.)

6. Any kind of sex involving a "beast" was forbidden.

7. Adultery was forbidden. (We all KNOW how venereal disease spreads.)

#'s 4-6 "Do not defile yourselves with any of these things; for by all these the nations are defiled, which I am casting out before you. For the land is defiled; therefore I visit the punishment of its iniquity upon it, and the land vomits out its inhabitants." (Lev. 18:24-25)

"And you shall not walk in the statutes of the nation which I am casting out before you; for they commit all these things, and therefore I abhor them." (Lev 20:23 NKJ)

"For whoever commits any of these abominations, the persons who commit them shall be cut off from among their people" (Lev 18:29). There was NO SACRIFICE prescribed. No means of return to "the people". Which is WHY churches today, tend to shun the people who are known to have committed these things.

Incidentally, Tel Aviv is know as the gay capital of the Middle East.

7. Scavengers, carnivores, and bottom feeders were forbidden as food items.

9. They were NOT to eat fat or the blood.

10. Those identified as having a skin disease or a bodily discharge, were quarantined, UNTIL healing was established.

11. It was forbidden to eat of a sacrificed animal after 2 days. I always wondered why they could not have dried the meat, in that desert climate. I realize it was a prophecy of Christ coming back to life on the 3rd day, rather than his flesh seeing "corruption". Maybe it promoted sharing, rather than hording.

Blessings

May 7, 2015

No one is saying that God does not love LGBTs. He loves every human being. But He CANNOT receive into His kingdom those who continue to practice sodomy - without sorrow or repentance. Back when I used to administer anesthesia, we would have some lively "discussions" over the either screen. One surgeon I remember, used to love to corner me on different religious issues. He brought up homosexual behavior one day. I looked straight at him and said, "Do you believe THAT orifice was intended by our Creator, for THAT purpose." You could see him blush (He's black). He admitted, "No". I can cause all sorts of hearth problems.

"But what if they can't help themselves, because they were born that way?"

I asked him, "Have you EVER desired a woman other than your wife, since you were married?" (He blushed again.) "But you did not follow your natural physical desire. Did you?"

So - it IS possible to resist a natural physical desire. The WILL is stronger than the desire. If God has clearly said, "No!" Then you must choose between your desire, and God's command. Our physical desires do not always align with God's will. Not in this world. Not until we receive our new spiritual body. Someday - they will. I long for that day.

I feel genuinely sorrowful for LGBTs. Far as I have read, there is no "proof" that homosexuality IS an inherited trait, though it certainly has all the characteristics (short of DNA evidence). Who would WANT to inherit such a trait ? No one.

You are absolutely correct. We are all born with tendencies to sin. Some of us are born liars. Ever seen a little kid who will look you in the face and lie to you even though he knows you watched him do what he's denying he did? How about the little kid who won't lie but has a terrible temper that leads him into all kinds of trouble? How about the little kid who has girlfriends very early in life and ends up sleeping with them at an early age. All three of these kids have a bent towards a particular sin, yet there is no excuse with God for indulging it. The same with homosexuality. Just because there is, or isn't depending on who you believe, an inborn bent there is no excuse for sin. We can't make a practice of ANY sin and expect to get into heaven.

May 8, 2015

Of course, we as a Man oriented culture since time began are offended with What offends God. All sin is offensive cause what it does toward each other and ultimately to HIM.

But reading into the story what is not there is not right. Predatory behavior, whether its homosexual or heterosexual, is evil. As in the Bible says ,in the narrative of the flood, two things stuck out. Every thought in the heart of men were continually sin. And Violence ruled the land. Rape is an act of violence, domination, and humiliation that leaves scares for the rest of their lives. Preditorial people lived in Sodom. It seems like every where you turned.. Apparently came out at night. The People went to the market place by day and locked the door at night.

What a scary place to live and bring up your children.

And once Again in The Bible itself it spreads it all out

Your younger sister was Sodom, who lived with her daughters in the south. ⁴⁷But you have not merely sinned as they did. You quickly surpassed them in corruption. ⁴⁸As surely as I live, says the Sovereign Lord, Sodom and her daughters were never as wicked as you and your daughters. ⁴⁹Sodom’s sins were pride, gluttony, and laziness, while the poor and needy suffered outside her door. ⁵⁰She was proud and committed detestable sins, so I wiped her out, as you have seen.^[c]

Could we read forced homosexual acts in 'committed detestable sins' ..well of course! I don't doubt that at all. It all comes down to what we do to each other. Whether its a proud look or same sex rape.It all offends our wonderful God.

I believe in the Full Cup principle someone mentioned earlier. But maybe under different perspective. Which I may share another time.

GOD BLESS YOU ALL HERE!

It is interesting to note that violating the Sabbath and blaspheming the Lord Name and cursing your parents all deserve death in Leviticus. But our modern society and modern church do not regard those scriptures for a very good reason.

May 8, 2015

Of course, we as a Man oriented culture since time began are offended with What offends God. All sin is offensive cause what it does toward each other and ultimately to HIM.

But reading into the story what is not there is not right. Predatory behavior, whether its homosexual or heterosexual, is evil. As in the Bible says ,in the narrative of the flood, two things stuck out. Every thought in the heart of men were continually sin. And Violence ruled the land. Rape is an act of violence, domination, and humiliation that leaves scars for the rest of their lives. Preditorial people lived in Sodom. It seems like every where you turned.. Apparently came out at night. The People went to the market place by day and locked the door at night.

What a scary place to live and bring up your children.

And once Again in The Bible itself it spreads it all out

Your younger sister was Sodom, who lived with her daughters in the south. ⁴⁷But you have not merely sinned as they did. You quickly surpassed them in corruption. ⁴⁸As surely as I live, says the Sovereign Lord, Sodom and her daughters were never as wicked as you and your daughters. ⁴⁹Sodom’s sins were pride, gluttony, and laziness, while the poor and needy suffered outside her door. ⁵⁰She was proud and committed detestable sins, so I wiped her out, as you have seen.^[c]

Could we read forced homosexual acts in 'committed detestable sins' ..well of course! I don't doubt that at all. It all comes down to what we do to each other. Whether its a proud look or same sex rape.It all offends our wonderful God.

I believe in the Full Cup principle someone mentioned earlier. But maybe under different perspective. Which I may share another time.

GOD BLESS YOU ALL HERE!

It is interesting to note that violating the Sabbath and blaspheming the Lord Name and men laying with men (u notice lesbian sex is not mentioned hmm..)and cursing your parents all deserve death in Leviticus. But our society and church do not regard those scriptures for a very good reason.

..i had to fix a few things

May 8, 2015

The LORD gave several different laws for Israel, which we today understand were for the purpose of keeping Israel healthy, and giving them offspring.
I will give a few examples.

1. Men were NOT to have sex with their wives when they were menstruating, and for 7 days following. (We understand today that the cervix is more open, and would allow any bacteria to travel more easily into the womb, and from there into the abdomen.) (We also know that waiting 14 days from the start of menses, puts a woman at her MOST FERTILE time. Children back then, were understood to be a BLESSING from God.)

2. Men were NOT to have sex with their wives for a period of time after childbirth. (Same reason.)

You are on the right track in your post. I made a comment in another thread on this topic that we are in the midst of huge social upheaval since the social and sexual revolution. Since we find ourselves in the middle of the wave, there are many things we have accepted that do hinder us on the subject. I believe if you are willing to bear with me, the Bible will come together on this topic and many other social/moral issues as well. A Bible only Jewess taught me much about this as she used to practice family impurity....

I will try to give some insights to points 1 and 2.

It is fairly obvious that you have taken the health/science route.

The Bible is not designed to be a health/science book, it is a book of spiritual wisdom/guidance and God's plan of redemption for fallen mankind. When we make it a science/health book it ends up becoming our science imposed on the text. The liability of this becomes the intended message gets lost.

Modern science is positive that having sex while a wife is having a period is not a physically unhealthy act. There is no conspiracy, for the most part, many of them are not even thinking of the bible when they are researching this part of life. Bacteria has no problem invading a more or less open cervix/OS. Either way it is open. If more open was the case, then sex while a woman is ovulating would pose the greatest risk.

This only creates a controversy if health was is the intended message.

It is not unhealthy, but immoral to do so..let me explain.

When a woman was experiencing her monthly cycle, she was separated from the assembly, and was not not allowed to be in the Presence of God(in the Temple) Not because she was unhealthy, but because she was in a state of unholiness. In order to regain her holiness, she had to wait until her period was finished and a period of time. 7 days normally, and if the period was extended, then it would be 14 days. After this she would be cleansed in flowing 9living) water, but this still did not make her clean of her ceremonial unholiness, this only covered her in order to offer sacrifices at the Temple-this regained her holiness.

The woman was not excluded from the assembly and the Presence of God because of health concerns, it was because life was leaving her body. A potential life was going down the drain, and this was not the original plan of God. To willingly participate in life giving intercourse while a woman was experiencing death was an act that would cause the couple to be cut off from the assembly. This would be a private issue with hopefully no witnesses present, but God was watching and the couple would be cut off from the covenant.

This is why this issue is correctly placed in the sexual prohibitions of Leviticus 18 and 20.

Death is when life leaves the body. This is why a person who touches a dead body contracts unholiness, the person who touches a dead body takes on the the dead bodies death. In the same manner, a person who touches a women in her monthly cycle also contracts her unholiness-life is leaving her body. When a man ejaculates, life is leaving his body, and the wife who comes into contact with her husbands semen contracts his unholiness. When a woman gives birth, life leaves her body, and she is unholy for a period of time.

The message is to drive home the point that we are born into sin that we have no control over-unintentional sin. We need God! This was also intended to encourage the faithful to choose life over death. This is why this obscure Biblical reality finds its rightful place in Leviticus 18 and 20-it all follows the same context

May 8, 2015

You are on the right track in your post. I made a comment in another thread on this topic that we are in the midst of huge social upheaval since the social and sexual revolution. Since we find ourselves in the middle of the wave, there are many things we have accepted that do hinder us on the subject. I believe if you are willing to bear with me, the Bible will come together on this topic and many other social/moral issues as well. A Bible only Jewess taught me much about this as she used to practice family impurity....

I will try to give some insights to points 1 and 2.

It is fairly obvious that you have taken the health/science route.

The Bible is not designed to be a health/science book, it is a book of spiritual wisdom/guidance and God's plan of redemption for fallen mankind. When we make it a science/health book it ends up becoming our science imposed on the text. The liability of this becomes the intended message gets lost.

Modern science is positive that having sex while a wife is having a period is not a physically unhealthy act. There is no conspiracy, for the most part, many of them are not even thinking of the bible when they are researching this part of life. Bacteria has no problem invading a more or less open cervix/OS. Either way it is open. If more open was the case, then sex while a woman is ovulating would pose the greatest risk.

This only creates a controversy if health was is the intended message.

It is not unhealthy, but immoral to do so..let me explain.

When a woman was experiencing her monthly cycle, she was separated from the assembly, and was not not allowed to be in the Presence of God(in the Temple) Not because she was unhealthy, but because she was in a state of unholiness. In order to regain her holiness, she had to wait until her period was finished and a period of time. 7 days normally, and if the period was extended, then it would be 14 days. After this she would be cleansed in flowing 9living) water, but this still did not make her clean of her ceremonial unholiness, this only covered her in order to offer sacrifices at the Temple-this regained her holiness.

The woman was not excluded from the assembly and the Presence of God because of health concerns, it was because life was leaving her body. A potential life was going down the drain, and this was not the original plan of God. To willingly participate in life giving intercourse while a woman was experiencing death was an act that would cause the couple to be cut off from the assembly. This would be a private issue with hopefully no witnesses present, but God was watching and the couple would be cut off from the covenant.

This is why this issue is correctly placed in the sexual prohibitions of Leviticus 18 and 20.

Death is when life leaves the body. This is why a person who touches a dead body contracts unholiness, the person who touches a dead body takes on the the dead bodies death. In the same manner, a person who touches a women in her monthly cycle also contracts her unholiness-life is leaving her body. When a man ejaculates, life is leaving his body, and the wife who comes into contact with her husbands semen contracts his unholiness. When a woman gives birth, life leaves her body, and she is unholy for a period of time.

The message is to drive home the point that we are born into sin that we have no control over-unintentional sin. We need God! This was also intended to encourage the faithful to choose life over death. This is why this obscure Biblical reality finds its rightful place in Leviticus 18 and 20-it all follows the same context

I thank you for a deeper understanding. I must confess I did not study this particular topic very much.

May 8, 2015

You mentioned that there was no specific prohibition against lesbian sexual acts in the OT. But there IS in the NT.

Romans 1:24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.

Romans 1:26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. (Rom 1:26 NIV)

Romans 1:27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error. (NIV)

So, either Paul is simply spouting His opinion - OR - He actually understood how the LORD viewed such things. If we're going to pick and choose what to believe from what Paul wrote, then the letters of Paul are just commentary - not especially "inspired".

May 8, 2015

You mentioned that there was no specific prohibition against lesbian sexual acts in the OT. But there IS in the NT.

Romans 1:24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.

Romans 1:26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. (Rom 1:26 NIV)

Romans 1:27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error. (NIV)

So, either Paul is simply spouting His opinion - OR - He actually understood how the LORD viewed such things. If we're going to pick and choose what to believe from what Paul wrote, then the letters of Paul are just commentary - not especially "inspired".

Yes Thank you 8thdaypriest for bringing up those Wonderful Scriptures, And I Quoted St. Paul a few times on other posts. If you care to look at every post I put up here. Just to make sure.

And since I am new, I am just getting started and you will see me quote St. Paul more. Which for some strange horrible reason many Christians violate constantly and fellow Christians don't bat an eye. I notice the Church doesn't deny heterosexual relationship sins by its members much that both Paul and Jesus talk about. Just the LGBTIQQAA ones are hammered by our Church. Hmmm. also very telling. But alas maybe for another Thread. Well maybe not ,given the climate here. .. :scared:

I found it very interesting that for the first 4,000 years there is no prohibition nor direct command about the fairer sex to not lay with each other ( .. still no visual ).

It does mean something.

GBU 8thdaypriest. Maybe one day you will share with me the meaning behind your name, It is beautiful.

May 8, 2015

You seem to be saying that all "Christians" should just fellowship and try to get along, regardless of the particular "sins" of individuals. Sort of a don't-ask-don't-tell. Cause we all are sinners, and most continue to sin. No individual should be "shunned" or "disfellowshiped" for any particular sin (or any particular belief). Right?

But in Scripture, God DID command separation. Israel was commanded to have nothing to do with Canaanites. Lest they be infected with their practices of idolatry, and fornication.

And Paul wrote, "Do NOT be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? (2Cor. 6:14).

I realize he was writing about marriage, but the same principle applies.

1 Corinthians 5:1-3 "It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father's wife. And you are proud! Shouldn't you rather have gone into mourning and have put out of your fellowship the man who has been doing this? (NIV)

The blatant, continuing practice of sinful acts, IS grounds for separating the individual from the group.

It is a principle, that sinful practices - when tolerated - gradually become accepted, and lead to the destruction of the entire group. THAT is what has happened and is happening in this USA. (I'm not just talking about homosexuality here.) How many mothers and fathers have forbidden their sons or daughters to "hang out with those boys" or "those girls" or "that crowd". How many are dismayed by the things their kids learn at secular colleges.

Before long, it will become illegal to disfellowship any LGBT person from any religious congregation. It will be termed "discrimination".

The process of homogenization by government mandate, has come a long way, and will progress until being "different" or "separate" for any reason, will be termed a "crime" against the greater group.

May 8, 2015

You seem to be saying that all "Christians" should just fellowship and try to get along, regardless of the particular "sins" of individuals. Sort of a don't-ask-don't-tell. Cause we all are sinners, and most continue to sin. No individual should be "shunned" or "disfellowshiped" for any particular sin (or any particular belief). Right?

Where did you get that? I am not saying that at all. Not at all.

And again Hello 8thdaypriest.

and Did I ask ..where did you get that? I never said anything like that.

Edited May 8, 2015 by GayatfootofCross

May 8, 2015

Hello again,

I decided to quote you and then me to address line by line.

I am not detail oriented. I have the gift of seeing the Big picture. So I am applying myself here to do what is not easy to do.

So everyone who cares! Listen up.

"You seem to be saying that all "Christians" should just fellowship and try to get along" I never could say that ..Well not just get along (!) ugh! but to love on them and esteem higher than self (Paul said that and Most christians I know dont obey that (listen to them talk at church)..talk about cherry picking! ). And please do fellowship with whom ever you like,8thdaypriest !

"Sort of a don't-ask-don't-tell" Well I have two threads of a few facets on that alone [look below]. I don't believe in that ..but of course in a suffocating unsafe church ..that is how many deal with it just to survive.

"Cause we all are sinners, and most continue to sin." Yes we are all sinners..therefore 'most continue to sin' is very unbiblical.. I could never say that as well.

"shunned" or "disfellowshiped" for any particular sin (or any particular belief)." shun means to persistently avoid, ignore, or reject ..umm.. well anyhoo

Dis fellowship.. is Biblical and I might be saying something about that shining light onto God's heart from St Paul words. In another thread.

"Right?" soo wrooong!

......................................................................................

"You seem to be saying that all "Christians" should just fellowship and try to get along, regardless of the particular "sins" of individuals. Sort of a don't-ask-don't-tell. Cause we all are sinners, and most continue to sin. No individual should be "shunned" or "disfellowshiped" for any particular sin (or any particular belief). Right?" 8thdaypreist

God bless you for taking time to read my post.

Giving me the opportunity to clarify my position on the matters you brought up..

Edited May 8, 2015 by GayatfootofCross

May 9, 2015

Jude 1:7 "Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them, having in like manner with these given themselves over to fornication and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the punishment of eternal fire."

Notice Sodom and Gomorrah's sexual sins:

1] Fornication - sex outside marriage

2] going after strange flesh

The latter includes anything outside the normal sexual relationship between a man and a woman. This can be compared to Romans 1:

26 For this cause God gave them up (abandoned them) unto vile passions: for their women changed the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 and likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another, men with men.

So sexual relationships outside "the natural use" between opposite sexes is going after "strange flesh". This includes homosexuality, bestiality and other perverse sins.

Edited May 9, 2015 by Robert

May 9, 2015

Now what's the issue here? If you commit adultery, fornication or other sexual sins God is going to roast and toast you? No! Then what's the issue?

Romans 1:

a] "They did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer"

b] "they...also give hearty approval to those who practice them"

The issue isn't being sinless. If that we the case God wouldn't have delivered from under law. The issue is a state of mind or heart. Notice these Gentiles rejected God and not only did these sins themselves, but gave approval to those who practiced them. So the issue is one of practice.

May 9, 2015

Hi Robert. Nice to meet you here.

Well homosexuality isn't going after strange flesh. It is exactly same flesh. And I always thought strange flesh was non terrestrial flesh ...as in Angels!

May 9, 2015

You mentioned that there was no specific prohibition against lesbian sexual acts in the OT. But there IS in the NT.

Romans 1:24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.

Romans 1:26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. (Rom 1:26 NIV)

Romans 1:27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error. (NIV)

So, either Paul is simply spouting His opinion - OR - He actually understood how the LORD viewed such things. If we're going to pick and choose what to believe from what Paul wrote, then the letters of Paul are just commentary - not especially "inspired".

Paul did not have to be inspired in order to obtain from the Old Testament that lesbianism is wrong and prohibited. What i mean by this is that Paul was an educated Rabbi on the Law, and he did not need a new fuller understanding in order to extract this from the Law. Its all there.

I will take the time if you or anyone else is interested

May 9, 2015

Jude 1:7 "Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them, having in like manner with these given themselves over to fornication and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the punishment of eternal fire."

Notice Sodom and Gomorrah's sexual sins:

1] Fornication - sex outside marriage

2] going after strange flesh

The latter includes anything outside the normal sexual relationship between a man and a woman. This can be compared to Romans 1:

26 For this cause God gave them up (abandoned them) unto vile passions: for their women changed the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 and likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another, men with men.

So sexual relationships outside "the natural use" between opposite sexes is going after "strange flesh". This includes homosexuality, bestiality and other perverse sins.

The term fornication is not limited to sex outside of marriage. In the more recent translations it is translated "sexual immorality" and is a translation from the Greek word 'porneia".

Sexual immorality would be the prohibited sexual relations from Lev. 18. In context of Genesis 19, it is homosexuality that was the sexual immorality that is the subject matter of their cup running over

May 9, 2015

Hi Robert. Nice to meet you here.

Well homosexuality isn't going after strange flesh. It is exactly same flesh. And I always thought strange flesh was non terrestrial flesh ...as in Angels!

Let's go back to Romans 1:26 Their females exchanged natural relations for unnatural,27 and the males likewise gave up natural relations with females and burned with lust for one another. Males did shameful things with males and thus received in their own persons the due penalty for their perversity.

Notice that the sexual acts above are called "unnatural". So it is very logical that "strange flesh" means same sex.

BTW, notice that the "males...received in their own persons...the penalty for their perversity." Paul here is speaking of diseases associate with sodomy, namely AIDS. This is the natural result when God gives those who "practice" these perverse sex acts, up.

Edited May 9, 2015 by Robert

May 9, 2015

BTW, notice that the "males...received in their own persons...the penalty for their perversity." Paul here is speaking of diseases associate with sodomy, namely AIDS. This is the natural result when God gives those who "practice" these perverse sex acts, up.

Again, what does Paul mean by "practice"? Does he mean besetting sins (such as homosexual sex)? No. He means those who excuse their behavior and say things like "God made me this way" or "sodomy is not sin, it's love", etc. That is practicing a known life-style without repentance.

If you don't believe me look at the context:

verse 18:"The godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them."

verse 32: "Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them."

May 9, 2015

Here's Pastor Jack:

God-Abandonment Increases Sin

24 So God has abandoned them to their own choices, to indulge in perverted sex and the evil clamors of their sinful nature, thus demonstrating the degrading results of permissiveness. 25 This is the condition you see today; men have so twisted the truth that they would rather worship themselves and their ideas than the God of heaven, who sustains them and from whom all blessings flow.

26 Since they do not want God to be part of their lives, this is why He has given them up, to indulge in their degrading passions: 27 women preferring to be lesbians and men gay, each consumed by their perverted lusts for each other, practicing all kinds of shameful vice and as a result are suffering the inevitable consequences of their improper conduct.* 28 And because they insist on pushing God away, He who is agape love does not impose Himself on them but leaves them to their own devices. 29 The result is an increase in all sorts of crime and shameful behavior such as: malice, greed, envy, murder, quarreling, deceit, etc.

30 Men and women have become traitors, open slanderers, God-haters, insolent, proud, boastful, designers of new forms of evil, disrespectful to parents, 31 conscienceless, treacherous, and void of love or pity. 32All this in spite of the fact that they know it will result in divine retribution, the sentence of eternal death; yet they not only practice these terrible things but even encourage others to do them.

* The present scourge of sexually transmitted diseases is a painful warning that our present world is heading in the same direction as the Roman world was in Paul’s day.

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