is it wrong to eat out on Sabbaths?

[lazarus]

After you have answered please give your reasons.

(sorry for the sp on the poll question)

[melvin mccarty]

Depends! Silly question!

[Amelia]

Melvin, you can't answer with "depends". That's like a parent answering "because". Depends, why? Give some examples.

[cricket]

A True "Story"

Randy, a 19 year-old newly converted Seventh-day Adventist was struggling to make ends meet. In his younger days he'd fooled around with the young ladies in hid neighborhood. At the tender age of 16, his girlfriend Sara was found to be "with child."

The young girl decided to keep the baby and raise it as her own. She did not hate Randy and in fact, looked forward to the times that he'd be able to spend with them.

At the time, Randy wasn't quite as thrilled to be a father. In fact, he never even saw his little girl until she was two.

Some would argue that it was a coincidence that Randy ran into Sara and Madeline that day--others would say it was a Divine Appointment. At any rate, it was the day that Randy's heart melted.

Sara had been attending a Seventh-day Adventist church all her life but had not given her heart to the Lord until she became a mother. As excited as she was about seeing Randy again, she was more excited to tell Randy all that had happened to her in the past 2 years. She invited him to attend church with her, and because he wanted to see Madeline again, he agreed.

The pastor, a young man himself, was a dynamic speaker. He quickly became friends with Randy and soon began wooing his heart over for the Lord.

Four months after that "coincidental" meeting with Sara and his baby girl, Randy was baptized into the Seventh-day Adventist church.

Since Randy had given his heart to the Lord, he wanted to start to help out his little girl as much as he could. He began working a second job and going to school on his days "off". Things were going well until one particular Sabbath.

One of Randy's employers called Randy on a Thursday evening to ask him to come in to work that Saturday afternoon. The employer was short-staffed because of a flu virus that had been going around.

Randy was unsure what to do. He prayed about it and asked his Pastor what to do. He decided that He wanted to honor the Lord instead and called his employer to tell him he wouldn't be available.

His employer said he really needed Randy to work. Randy was his best employee and there was likely going to be a larger crowd than usual that weekend. He even threatened to fire Randy if he refused to come in to work.

Randy stayed up all night Thursday praying to God for an answer. He wanted to please the Lord, but he also wanted to be a good provider for his new "family."

Friday came and went. Still Randy felt no "still small voice" telling him what was right and wrong. He didn't know what to do, but felt very distressed over the whole situation.

Needing the money to help support his little girl and fearing the worst if he were to lose his job, Randy decided to go to work that Sabbath afternoon.

He left church early so that he would make it there before the lunch-hour rush. His employer was more than glad to see him!

Randy began waiting tables. Not cheerfully, but contentedly--knowing that he was being a responsible father and doing his best.

Then, it happened. Randy's faith was floored! Just about the time that Randy was ready to take his break, in walked the head elder, the second elder and their wives. They requested a table for 4 in non-smoking.

Embarassed to be working on the Sabbath, Randy was ready to throw in the towel and quit.

Bravely, Randy walked up to the table and began to make his regular introductions. The words this time, were different: "Hi! I'm Randy. I'll be your servant this afternoon."

Then, Randy did decide to throw in the towel. He no longer went to services at the Adventist church.

[Dr. Shane]

I find it hard to justify. I think propper preperation for the Sabbath would make it not nessasary to go to a restuaruant.

[Robert]

For me no....Each must follow his own convictions.

To me the Sabbath isn't primarily about doing certain things. I try to make the day different. I don't work at my job (unless I get called in). I can count on my hand the number of times I was called in over the last 18 years.

[Dr. Shane]

The Sabbath is a Commandment that involves both vertical and horizontal sin. Vertical sin is when we offend God and horizontal sin is when we offend other people.

God has set aside the Sabbath for us to spend with Him. When we engage in our regular-day, secular activities on the Sabbath we disrespect God and cheat Him on time He desires to spend with us. That is vertical sin. God has set aside the Sabbath for us to spend with Him because He loves us and longs for us to fellowship with Him. Neglecting to give Him this time is an unloving act on our part toward Him.

God not only desires the Sabbath to be a time for us to fellowship with Him, but a time of rest. This rest is not only for those that are members of God's church, but also for animals, strangers and our employees. The Commandment says, "in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy man-servant, nor thy maid-servant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates" When we require the others to work for us on the Sabbath we are denying them the rest God desires them to have. Denying them rest is an unloving act toward them and thus a horizontal sin.

We may eat at a restuarant with church brothers and sisters and fellowship about divine things and thus not deny God His time but by employing the services of others we deny them the rest God desires them to have. True, they would be working even if we were not there, but we wouldn't be the ones denying them their rest. And we are to love our neighbor as ourselves.

[Nicodema]

When I'm keeping sabbath as I should, I don't eat out at restaurants. I don't think it's right. Of course when I go astray anything goes -- but that doesn't mean it's what's right.

QBJFN -- that was a really sad story. Is it true? I wonder if Randy stopped going because the elders weren't keeping Sabbath or because he was embarrassed that he wasn't? Or both?

[Robert]

Quote:

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The Sabbath is a Commandment....

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Sorry...I am not "under the law"! I recognize the Sabbath as it relates to justification by faith. Too bad Adventists zero in on doing this or that and miss the whole point!

Yes, if it subtracts from the meaning of the day, it might be best to not to do certain things on the Sabbath, but eating out at a restaurant? Please....

Rob

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

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Sorry...I am not "under the law"

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Nor was Christ but He kept it. It isn't about being "under the law," it is about loving our fellow man. It is about loving God.

"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Romans 8:3, 4

Is "the righteousness of the law" fulfilled in us when we eat in resturaunts on Sabbath? When we eat in resturaunts on the Sabbath are we walking after the Spirit or after the flesh?

[cricket]

Randy says he stopped going to church because he realized that the people weren't really serious about their religion.

He'd worked long and hard at that restaurant for several months--he knew beyond a doubt that spending time there could not be quality time with the Lord.

[Gregory Matthews]

The story is undoubtedly both sad and true. I do not have a good asnwer. I can only say that one is individually responsible for how one responds to the leading of the Holy Spirit. Randy must make such decisions based upon his personal convictions, and not what others do.

Yes, that is not a good answer.

[lazarus]

Quote:

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melvin mccarty said:

Depends! Silly question!

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I'm very surprised you said silly question, perhaps you could elaborate!....if you can.

I find myself agreeing with Shane.

Exodus 16:23

(23) And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.

The day before Sabbath was understood to be preparation day. The idea is that to properly observe the Sabbath we should make necessary preparations, (the text specifically referes to food) before the Sabbath.

I don't know how anyone who is an SDA can reasonably justify, from scripture, eating out on Sabbaths, non-emergency purchases, attending movies/sports events on what is meant to be a holy (different) day.

Of course Sabbath is not about do's and don't. Its about a relationship with God but healthy relationships have clear bondaries in key areas.

[Naomi]

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Gregory Matthews said:

The story is undoubtedly both sad and true. I do not have a good asnwer. I can only say that one is individually responsible for how one responds to the leading of the Holy Spirit. Randy must make such decisions based upon his personal convictions, and not what others do.

Yes, that is not a good answer.

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

Thank you Gregory. And, that may not be a good answer, but it is the way it is.

First, I do believe that we are personally responsible for causing another to fall.

Secondly, if this statement is true, it is a lot of responsibility to those who are Christians.

Thirdly, perhaps it is a true statement that the young man perhaps was so discouraged that he did not return to church. However, I suspect that his faith was very weak and had it been this incident, or something else, he would have left the church.

If we want a reason, we will find one.

The only perfect man on this earth was Jesus. To look to another for your example and encouragement will always leave you discouraged. "For all have sined and come short of the glory of God."

Naomi

[cricket]

Nico asked if it were a real story. Naomi used the words, "it it is a true statement"...

Just curious, would it make any difference if it were not true? Is it plausible enough that it might be true?

Would it make any difference if I were to reveal that the school the young man began attending was an Adventist university and that the elders were the heads of the university church?

[Gregory Matthews]

In our spiritual life and development, many things are not set in concrete, and fully developed in Scripture. Often, principles are taught, but the application of those principles are not as clear, and as they are applied in time, place, and culture.

I have lived in two countries other than the United States (The hispanic country of Panama, and South Korea in Asia). I have traveled in others sometimes for as long as a month or more. I have come out of that experience with a greater understanding that the application of basic Biblical principles differes in different cultures, and countries. What is acceptable in an SDA culture in one country, would not be acceptable in another.

This illustrates to me that it is important that we develop, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, our personal applications of Biblical principles, and that we do not base them upon the standards of another.

No, it is not important to be told that the Elders were leaders in a University Church.

[Gregory Matthews]

Folks, I sometimes see a tendency for us to attempt to apply our personal standards to others.

I am concerned about the attempts I sometimes see (This is a general comment, and not to be applied to any specific case.) to ask provocative questions simply to stimulate intellectual discussions, that have no bearing on the person who asks the question.

I was at a holiday celebrateion once where I was accosted by a man who wanted to enter into a debate with me in regard the length of ones hair, and a Bible verse that he quoted.

In my first response I asked him to share with me the personal struggle that he was having in his life over that issues. He immediately responded that he was having no struggle, and it was settled in his mind.

When I informed him that I was not going to engage in an intellectual debate with him over a subject that had to practical application to his life, he went off in a huff, and sat for a whild in a corner sulking. As he explained to me, he felt that I as a SDA minister should be required to debate him on any issue that he brought to my attention.

Folks, I sometimes think that I see such happening here in CA.

[Nicodema]

Quote:

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Gregory Matthews said:

The story is undoubtedly both sad and true. I do not have a good asnwer. I can only say that one is individually responsible for how one responds to the leading of the Holy Spirit. Randy must make such decisions based upon his personal convictions, and not what others do.

Yes, that is not a good answer.

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Gregory, I think it both is and is not a good answer.

It is in theory ...

However, in actual experience, we all affect one another. I know my ability to even perceive the Holy Spirit at all (let alone HOW I perceive Him and WHAT I perceive Him to be telling me!!!) can be drastically tainted, interfered with, and colored by my experiences with other Christians -- what they do, what they say, how they treat me, and what they try to get me to believe is "what the Bible REALLY teaches".

Some of this problem is inherent in me, I realize. I have a hardwired capacity for dwelling on the negative and discounting the positive. When I'm conscious of it, I work to try and counteract that, but I'm not always even conscious of it when it's happening.

But in all fairness, some of this effect can come from Christians who are being as kind and lovely as they can possibly be -- and that is when it's at its most insidious. For example, earnestly pressing a matter as being what we should believe or how we should interpret the Bible or how we should live, when it isn't workable in real life and just gets you into psychological and emotional knots trying to implement something that ends up being destructive to your walk and eats you corrosively from the inside out.

I've said too much. End of post.

[Nicodema]

Quote:

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QBJFN said:

Would it make any difference if I were to reveal that the school the young man began attending was an Adventist university and that the elders were the heads of the university church?

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Would it make any difference if I told you the first night I sat in "Religious Experience" class in an Adventist college at the age of 16, after having just come to Christ 9 months prior and only being SDA for about 6 months, I was told by the President of the college essentially that God was not real? Exact words, "How do you THINK you communicate with God? It's through your imagination."[:"red"]**[/] Would it make any difference if I told you my introduction to mysticism and the opening created for Satan to enter my life and eventually destroy it came from a course taught at an SDA college by the President of the college himself?

OK so we are all responsible for ourselves -- fine -- where is our responsibility to one another, particularly to TOTAL BABIES IN CHRIST who are even as human beings immature and in need of sound guidance?????????????? I was 16 for crying out loud!!!!!

----------------------------------------------

[:"red"]**[/](He said this in direct rebuttal to my statement that the God I sought to communicate with was real and I only wanted the REAL communication from a REAL God in my life, not something that was the product of my imagination. The context was that this man was proposing to teach us how to go into altered states of consciousness and use our imaginations to communicate with God -- I had raised my hand and politely made my objection as stated herein.)

[Nicodema]

Quote:

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Gregory Matthews said:

I am concerned about the attempts I sometimes see (This is a general comment, and not to be applied to any specific case.) to ask provocative questions simply to stimulate intellectual discussions, that have no bearing on the person who asks the question.

....

[H]e felt that I as a SDA minister should be required to debate him on any issue that he brought to my attention.

Folks, I sometimes think that I see such happening here in CA.

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I wholeheartedly agree.

[Taylor]

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Gregory Matthews said:

I was at a holiday celebrateion once where I was accosted by a man who wanted to enter into a debate with me in regard the length of ones hair, and a Bible verse that he quoted.

In my first response I asked him to share with me the personal struggle that he was having in his life over that issues. He immediately responded that he was having no struggle, and it was settled in his mind.

When I informed him that I was not going to engage in an intellectual debate with him over a subject that had to practical application to his life, he went off in a huff, and sat for a whild in a corner sulking. As he explained to me, he felt that I as a SDA minister should be required to debate him on any issue that he brought to my attention.

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I feel for pastors! Arguing for the sake of arguing is pointless, especially when the issue is already setteled in both people's minds. Mercy my. Hats off to pastors for this added stress in their ministry.

[Gregory Matthews]

Re: " . . .in actual experience, we all affect one another. . ."

Correct. We do. It is because of that, that my answer is not a good answer.

But, I think that it is more helpful when one gives an answer of that nature to someone who says to you: "Why won't you do . . . , I have noted that Elder . . . is willing to do . . ."

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

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As he explained to me, he felt that I as a SDA minister should be required to debate him on any issue that he brought to my attention.

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I have done simular things. I simply inform the person that we have to agree to disagree. Nothing will come of discussing it further. However that is when the situation does not involve mass media.

This forum recieves thousands of hits each week, perhaps each day. People come here for many reasons. This is a much better way for people to spend their time than watching Jerry Springer, soap opras or prime-time television. It is better for one to spend time here reading different opinions about the Sabbath or long hair than the filthy programs on telvision.

So we may create and participate in discussions here that do not directly affect us but do affect and interest many of our readers that come here. While it may be a pointless intellectual exercise at a potluck table, it can be edifying in an internet forum.

[Gregory Matthews]

Re: "So we may create and participate in discussions here that do not directly affect us but do affect and interest many of our readers that come here. While it may be a pointless intellectual exercise at a potluck table, it can be edifying in an internet forum."

Why, then do we not allow them to ask us the questions that interest them?

Who are we to assume that we can act in a parental role to them and that we have to decide which questions may be of interest to them and stand in their place to ask those questions?

People will ask when they are read to listen.

[Bravus]

I still think the fact that we're even debating this trivia shows deep pathology in our understanding of God and grace. Where are the threads about our obligations to those who are starving? Isn't that a 'weightier matter of the law' than this tithing of anise?