is it wrong to eat out on Sabbaths?

[Gregory Matthews]

I more comfortable with this when I believe that the person asking the question is asking from an attempt to apply to their lives some Bible principle. Sincere people can struggle with minor issues. When I am dealing with such people I attempt to stimulate them to look at principles, determine the appication for themself, and not look to me for the answer.

All to often, here in CA, I see people who really do not want to apply it to themself, becasue they know the answer, and are looking for a debate in which a answer is imposed upon all, rather than looking at basis principles that people can use to make the application.

[Dr. Shane]

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Why, then do we not allow them to ask us the questions that interest them?

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Some of them can't because they are not members and others won't because they just are not the type of people that post in internet forums.

I suggest if one doesn't like these types of topics, they don't participate. Live and let live. Let others that enjoy discussing them do so.

[Amelia]

Does anyone remember a book called "The Name of The Rose" by "Umberto Eco"? Part of the plot was that monks from all over Italy had gathered to debate the poverty of Jesus and whether or not He owned His clothes. (if you didnt know, monks take a vow of poverty) Anyway, I am always reminded of this when we get to debating the "trivial" things in the church. <img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/mittelgr124.gif" alt="" />

[Dr. Shane]

"the poverty of Jesus and whether or not He owned His clothes"

Are you sure you don't want to start a thread on that topic?

[Gregory Matthews]

Re: "Some of them can't because they are not members and others won't because they just are not the type of people that post in internet forums."

Such people are not lilkely to benefit from hypothetical discussions that may be held here.

[cricket]

Why do so many of you insist that whether or not we go out to eat on the Sabbath is a trivial issue? For some new members of the Adventist church, it is one of the most non-trivial issues. It is something they struggle with--not only in justifying to themselves why they do or don't, but in justifying with others (like non-Adventist family members) as to why they choose not to go out to eat.

Just because some people think these things are trivial, doesn't mean others do.

Also, when someone wishes to discuss something with a pastor, he might find it wise to go ahead with the conversation even if he finds it mundane. Perhaps the person asking really is struggling with the matter, but isn't ready to reveal that he or she is stuggling.

Asking a question using the opening phrase, "for the sake of argument, what do you think about...such-and-such" isn't always all that the person is asking.

Ever hear of the old query, "I have this friend...?"

_____

The reason I asked if it would have mattered if the elders were from a University church is because I'd wondered if they perhaps, held a greater responsibility to the young people in the church.

Whether they like it or not, these elders (men and women) do, indeed, have a responsiblity to the younger members of our church. Our younger members are impressionable and are looking for guidance in all areas of their lives.

You see, the whole reason Randy had to go to work was because he was going to loose his job. He was needed at work because there was going to be a larger crowd than usual. It was "parent's weekend" at the university. The restaurant was packed with Adventists. Most of them strangers, but four of them he recognized: the two head elders and their wives.

If you've ever struggled with having to tell your employer that you don't wish to work on the Sabbath, and your employer has insisted that you do or you'd be (at the very least) looked down on in future, passed over for a raise, promotion, etc.--well, think on these things:

If Adventists would stay home or at church, they might possibly have a detrimental (depending on how you look at it) effect on these places of business. The place of business might be so inclined to shut their doors on Saturdays because not enough clientele would venture in.

Then, when the weekend rolled around, you (or Randy) wouldn't even have to think twice about whether or not it is right to work, or to go out to eat on the Sabbath--it'll be a non-issue.

And maybe...just maybe...the store owners will have to stop and wonder, "Where on Earth is everyone going these days? I used to have a full restaurant on Saturday afternoons. Maybe I'll follow that caravan of people to that church next week and see what it's all about."

[cricket]

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Such people are not lilkely [sic] to benefit from hypothetical discussions that may be held here.

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How little you know people.

[Robert]

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Shane said:

Nor was Christ but He kept it.

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And Christ was fully selfless. He didn't even sin by a thought....He spent His whole life as the servant of all; not even looking out for His own welfare (besides food & water).

Since you imply that Christ kept the Sabbath and therefore one shouldn't eat out at restaurants, then to be fair to your conclusion you must be selfless, just like Christ was selfless.

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It isn't about being "under the law," it is about loving our fellow man. It is about loving God.

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The Sabbath under the NC has nothing to do with "loving" God. Correctly understood it is a sign of faith:

Paul's concluding argument: Heb 4:9 There remains therefore a Sabbath rest [a keeping Sabbath] for the people of God [NT believers]. 10 For the one who has entered His rest [i.e., has accepted the gospel] has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His.

When Christ shouted out, "It is finished" God the Father literally rested from His complete redemption of mankind in His Son, Jesus Christ.

If you believe that "in Christ" God has justified you, then as a sign of faith Paul says that you should rest from your works.

What does he mean?

1] We need to rest from our law-works in trying to merit heaven.

2] As an outward sign, we should lay aside unnecessary work on the Sabbath (the 7th-day)...i.e., if that's one's understanding!

So if you wish to add to this (as in not going out to a restaurant...or not watching TV, etc) that is your standard.

[Dr. Shane]

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Since you imply that Christ kept the Sabbath and therefore one shouldn't eat out at restaurants

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What I implied is that Christ kept the law although He wasn't under the law.

I don't buy into the idea that God had one means of salvation before the cross and another means of salvation after the cross. Christ is now and always has been the only means of salvation. The law of God plays the same role today as it always has. The law never saved anyone.

[Dr. Shane]

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Such people are not lilkely to benefit from hypothetical discussions that may be held here.

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Such a statement could only come from the mouth of God. How could any human mind possibly know how the thousands of lurkers that come here are edified?

To each their own I say. There are a lot of threads here that I think are sensless and that is why I don't participate in them. I would be out of line to tell people they shouldn't discuss certain subjects just because I am not interested in them. Granted, if they are encouraging sinful behavior something should be said but talking about keeping the Sabbath hardly qualifies.

[Robert]

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Shane said:

The law never saved anyone.

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So then...what does eating out on Sabbath have to do with being saved?

[Tom Wetmore]

I should like to rephrase the question under discussion:

Which is more spiritually damaging, eating lunch at a restaraunt on Sabbath or arguing the Sabbath hours away about whether it is wrong to eat at a restaurant on Sabbath?

Tom

[Dr. Shane]

Our mentality cannot be that of the rich young ruler. The rich young ruler asked, "What must I do to be saved?" Does anyone see a problem with that question? It is filled with selfish motive.

Instead of asking, "What must I do to be saved?" we should ask "How can I show my gratitude?" The grateful heart will desire to live out God's will. So the question, "Is it wrong to eat out on Sabbath?" is one that a grateful heart would want answered. It isn't about salvation, it is about gratitude.

[Robert]

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Shane said:

The grateful heart will desire to live out God's will.

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Okay...I buy this partially! The point is none of us perfectly understand God's will [see Isaiah 55:8,9/1 Corinthians 13:9-12]

From my Biblical point of view, I see no problem with it!

From your view...it's wrong!

We must follow our conscience....

Rob

[lazarus]

Some points I'd like to mention:

1. Of course I started this thread to stimulate discussion and yes its provocative! Thats part of the reason why folks post on the forum (if they are honest). Its interesting, fun, informative.

2. How on earth does anyone know whether the question has any bearing on the the person who asks is?

3.

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I see people who really do not want to apply it to themself, becasue they know the answer, and are looking for a debate in which a answer is imposed upon all, rather than looking at basis principles that people can use to make the application.

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Are you saying Greg that people should not have an opinion that they believe should be applicable to all people. Can you give examples of where you think this has happened?

4. Why is it trivial to discuss this issue with all the other crazy (alot of it fun) stuff we discuss around here. Is not this the bast place to discuss this. In a safe warm environment!

5. Is this a case of "the posters doth protest too much"

6. This is like the, "should I wear earings? go to movies? date a Hindu? smoke weed? have sex before marriage? listen to 50 cent? " kind of question. My position is its always alright to ask.

7. The law is the school teacher that brings us to Christ.An examination of how we keep His Sabbath may bring us closer to Christ.

[Gregory Matthews]

Lazarus:

1) The comments that I have made, even if made in this thread, have not been specific to this subject. They have been intended to be general in nature, and broad enough to cover comments made in other sections of CA.

2) In an approach to a subject like this, I start out with a basic assumption that the one who goes to Scripture to see what is said there is best led by the Holy Spirit when the intent is to find something to apply to ones life, as opposed to apply to the life of another.

3) As I have stated, in my thinking, one searches for basic principles that one then applies to ones life in what I commonly call a judgement.

To illustrate: There may be a basic principle that one should seek to live a healthy life. That principle may include the diet that one eats. As paracticed in the SDA church, many in the United States practice some kind of a vegetarian diet. That is an application of a basic principle, or, as I call it, a judgement.

That application may be based upon the availability of a large number of dietary items. It may also involve ones ecconomic circumstances. In places where one cannot afford to purchase fresh carrots, or tomotaoes, (etc.), or where due to climate (Iceland? and some parts of Africa?) or the season of the year, eating a good diet might involve eating flesh food. In such cases the principle is kept, but the application (judgement) differs.

Let us apply that to the subject under discussion. That subject is "eating out on the Sabbath." The focus of many of these posts appears to me to be to establish a fixed, rigig, locked in concrete, rule. On can, or one cannot. It does not allow for individual circumstances. Travel may be one such. By the way, individual travel circumstances may differ. It simply may not be possible, in some cases, for people to pack food for Sabbath on Friday.

3) I also see in some of these posts a failure to recognize that the Holy Spirit leads perople individually. That leading is progressive. I think that we sometimes may need to wait for the Holy Spirit to lead, rather than pushing people ahead of the Holy Spirit.

4) You ask why it is trivial to discuss "crazy" stuff. You have answered your own question. But, there is a greater answer. To illlustrate, I will change the subject. It is trivial to focus on a wedding ring with someone who is not committed to Christ. We do some of that type (generalization, not specific) here in Club Adventist.

5)You ask how one can know if a question has any bearing on the person who asks. I answered that question when I mentioned the man who wanted to debate long hair with me. I asked, and he told me that it had no personal applicability to him.

I have had people comming to me and ask the very question in regard to eating out on the Sabbath, who have wanted to discuss from the standpoint of personal application to them. But, they have been willing to claim such. They may tell me: Pastor, I am often away from home on the Sabbath, in addition . . . . is my circumstance. They acknowledge that their purpose is to look for a personal application. With those people I do not give then a direct answer. Instead, I seek to teach them to look for basic Biblical principles, that under the guidanace of the Holy Spirit they can apply to thier life.

If my memory is correct, no one in this thread has claimed such a personal applicability. If one were to do so, that response might best come in private conversations where there could be two-way feedback that led people to udnerstand the basic principles that applied to their situations.

6) You tell us that this question is like other questions such as whether or not one should go to movies. Exactly. There is a big difference between the person who regularly attnde a travelogue in a theater that only shows travelogues, and one who goes to a XXX-rated theater to see a XXX-rated movie.

NOTE: Yes I attend travelogues, movies on science, and history, in the local Museumn of Nature and Science. I also saw "The Passion of the Christ," and will soon watch "The Chronicles of Narnia."

6) you tell us that such discussion are fun. Is Biblical debate intended to be fun, or is it intended to have a higher purpose?

NOTE: I am not saying that Biblical studies shoudl be dry and painful.

[Dr. Shane]

There are exceptions to most rules or guidelines. Jesus healing on the Sabbath and David eating the shewbread were such exceptions. These things appeared to violate the letter of the law but did not violate its spirit.

Is it always wrong to eat out on Sabbath? Most of the time a person traveling can prepare a meal ahead of time to take with him or her. However I would see no problem with a person serving in the National Guard (let's say as a medic to avoid further controversy) eating at a restuarant with the rest of his unit. Many units do not have cooks and the National Guard pays a restuarant to feed their troops.

[cricket]

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You ask how one can know if a question has any bearing on the person who asks. I answered that question when I mentioned the man who wanted to debate long hair with me. I asked, and he told me that it had no personal applicability to him.

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"Pastor Matthews, I'd really like to talk with you about the rightness and wrongness of suicide."

"Does this have any applicability to you personally?"

"Well, no! No! Not at all! I would never do a thing like that!"

"In that case, I don't wish to discuss it with you. Thank you, have a good day."

(Need I go any further? The rest could get horrendous.)

[Nicodema]

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QBJFN said:

Why do so many of you insist that whether or not we go out to eat on the Sabbath is a trivial issue? For some new members of the Adventist church, it is one of the most non-trivial issues. It is something they struggle with--not only in justifying to themselves why they do or don't, but in justifying with others (like non-Adventist family members) as to why they choose not to go out to eat.

Just because some people think these things are trivial, doesn't mean others do.

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I hear you. I know I personally have been guilty at times of using this phrase "trivial issues". I am going to make a conscious effort not to use that kind of phrase again because it is belittling. I think the phrase used in Romans 14 is more fitting for these sorts of things. The bible calls them "disputable matters" -- they are things which are not expressly prohibited or called sinful in scripture but different believers have different opinions on whether they are right or wrong. "Disputable matters" seems a more objective label to me, because like you said, for some people these are not "trivial" but important to them personally.

I think we should just call them "disputable matters" instead.

[Robert]

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Shane said:

Is it always wrong to eat out on Sabbath?

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Shane...I understand where you are coming from, but I disagree with your conclusions. The central issue of the Sabbath isn't about "working" - as in not doing things.

Jesus is the center of the Sabbath. It points to His complete work of redemption. But instead we focus on not doing this or that and thus lose the meaning of the Sabbath. The Jews did...and Adventists are right behind them.

Today is the Sabbath...right? Did you know that you are purchasing electricity as we speak? Oh sure, you pay later, but the fact is you are paying for that service through the Sabbath hours.

Why not turn off the electricity if you are going to focus on doing things? Besides, according to the OT, kindling a fire is a sin on the Sabbath day:

Ex 35:2 “For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day you shall have a holy day, a Sabbath of complete rest to the Lord; whoever does any work on it shall be put to death. 3 “You shall not kindle a fire in any of your dwellings on the Sabbath day.”

[cricket]

[Neil D]

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CoAspen said:

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It isn't about salvation, it is about gratitude.

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We agree! My wife and I have great gratitude for those that serve us lunch!

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No matter if they are the waiters at the restuarants or Church members, eh?

[Dr. Shane]

The Sabbath is all about Jesus. After all, He is the Lord of the Sabbath. The restrictions placed on the Sabbath are not a burdon but a means to maximize the Sabbath hours.

I grew up in a home that was heated by a woodburning furnace. Kindling a fire takes a lot of time and work. If a fire is needed on the Sabbath, it is better to start the fire before the Sabbath and keep it burning.

There are some people that have to work. Pastors are some. Obviously pastors much do a lot of their work on the Sabbath. Policemen, firemen, military personel, emergency-room doctors,hospital and nursing home workers must all work. In areas heavily dependant on public transportion, bus drivers and subway operators must work. And of course, public utility workers must work. Most people that work in these professions can arrange to get every other Sabbath off and when they must work, nothing stops them from meditating on spiritual matters.

[Robert]

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15 In those days I saw men in Judah treading winepresses on the Sabbath and bringing in grain and loading it on donkeys, together with wine, grapes, figs and all other kinds of loads. And they were bringing all this into Jerusalem on the Sabbath. Therefore I warned them

against selling food on that day.

16 Men from Tyre who lived in Jerusalem were bringing in fish and all kinds of merchandise and selling them in Jerusalem on the Sabbath to the people of Judah. 17 I rebuked the nobles of Judah and said to them, “What is this wicked thing you are doing—desecrating the Sabbath day? 18 Didn’t your forefathers do the same things, so that our God brought all this calamity upon us and upon this city? Now you are stirring up more wrath against Israel by desecrating the Sabbath.” [Neh. 13:15-18]

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So...what you are saying is that while I might not be running my business or working at my employment, the fact that I am buying food is a business transaction?

[Dr. Shane]

I think the issue in Nehemiah is that they were actually doing their normal work on the Sabbath. Eating out on resturants is more an issue of denying others (albeit nonbelievers) the Sabbath rest.