Robert Posted August 18, 2015 Author Posted August 18, 2015 It absolutely is your problem. Nope.... Quote
pnattmbtc Posted August 18, 2015 Posted August 18, 2015 1.You have a view of the future, that it can be seen as something settled. Robert: That's your spin....You are putting words in my mouth. I'm just reasoning from what you wrote. If God can look into the future, and say "this definitely will happen, and not that," then logically the future must be settled. That's simple logic. There has to be a settled future for God to see. Pnattmbtc. I not interesting in your speculations because ultimately you are making your mind the measuring stick of truth and that always leads to unbelief...always. I'm reasoning from God has revealed, the same as you. Why do you think you're doing something different than I am? Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted August 18, 2015 Posted August 18, 2015 Nope.... Why do this as opposed to respond to the points that were made. Do you think God cares what you think about why evil exists? Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Robert Posted August 19, 2015 Author Posted August 19, 2015 (edited) I'm reasoning from God has revealed, the same as you. Why do you think you're doing something different than I am? No, you are speculating....It's clear God allowed sin, but why? I can't find an answer. Edited August 19, 2015 by Robert Quote
Robert Posted August 19, 2015 Author Posted August 19, 2015 (edited) Why do this as opposed to respond to the points that were made. Because, again, you are speculating. Do you think God cares what you think about why evil exists? I have no idea! Maybe He wants me to trust Him and that He will reveal the answer to this question at its proper time. Edited August 19, 2015 by Robert Quote
pnattmbtc Posted August 19, 2015 Posted August 19, 2015 I'm reasoning from God has revealed, the same as you. Why do you think you're doing something different than I am? Robert:No, you are speculating....It's clear God allowed sin, but why? I can't find an answer. I asked you, "Why do you think you're doing something different than I am?" and you respond, "No, you are speculating". This isn't a response. Regarding your statement, it's clear God allowed sin, I can't find an answer, this is an easy question to answer. The answer is that God created beings with free will, which was necessary in order for love to exist. Once you create beings with free will, there is the risk that love will be rejected. Once free will beings made the choice to rebel against God, the only choice was to all sin to continue, or not. If God had chosen to not allow sin to continue, that would have resulted in questions among those who didn't rebel, because they would not have understood the consequences of sin, since sin had not played out. So God, like the parable of the wheat and the tares, allowed sin to play out so its consequences could be seen. However, my question to you is not why God allowed sin, but why would God act in such a way to cause it to happen. And you're correct in not being able to answer the question I'm asking you, because there is no answer, and this is because your whole premise is wrong. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted August 19, 2015 Posted August 19, 2015 Why do this as opposed to respond to the points that were made. Robert:Because, again, you are speculating. No, that's not why. It's because you can't. Quote Me:Do you think God cares what you think about why evil exists? Robert: I have no idea! Maybe He wants me to trust Him and that He will reveal the answer to this question at its proper time. He has revealed the answer, and He does want you to know (which He has also revealed). Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Robert Posted August 19, 2015 Author Posted August 19, 2015 (edited) He has revealed the answer, and He does want you to know (which He has also revealed). No, He hasn't, but you claim to have revealed the answer....Does that make you God? Edited August 19, 2015 by Robert Quote
Robert Posted August 19, 2015 Author Posted August 19, 2015 No, that's not why. It's because you can't. Whatever you say, pnattmbtc. Have your ego inflated a bit more.... Quote
Robert Posted August 19, 2015 Author Posted August 19, 2015 (edited) Regarding your statement, it's clear God allowed sin, I can't find an answer, this is an easy question to answer. The answer is that God created beings with free will, which was necessary in order for love to exist. Once you create beings with free will, there is the risk that love will be rejected. Why? There was nothing in God's creation that had the principle of "self" in it. So how could "self" come about in a perfect universe? Namely, how could sin happen? There's no answer. The Bible calls it a mystery. However, my question to you is not why God allowed sin, but why would God act in such a way to cause it to happen. And you're correct in not being able to answer the question I'm asking you, because there is no answer, and this is because your whole premise is wrong. Oh, I see....You have the answer, even though there's no answer, because I'm wrong and you, being of great intellect, have the answer. God allowed sin, as you said, to expose its true "consequences". But that brings up another question: Why? Again, we don't know. We can speculate, but we don't know. The love of self sounds wonderful, but when allowed to be practiced it brings chaos. None of this still answers why God, who knew that Lucifer would rebel against His agape, created him nonetheless. Edited August 19, 2015 by Robert Quote
pnattmbtc Posted August 19, 2015 Posted August 19, 2015 He has revealed the answer, and He does want you to know (which He has also revealed). Robert: No, He hasn't, but you claim to have revealed the answer....Does that make you God? Robert, I wrote out the answer for you. No, I'm not God, I'm a mere creature who has noticed something He has revealed. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted August 19, 2015 Posted August 19, 2015 No, that's not why. It's because you can't. Robert: Whatever you say, pnattmbtc. Have your ego inflated a bit more.... Why do you think if someone knows something you don't know that they have an inflated ego? And what difference would that make anyway? What's important is the truth, not if X or Y has an inflated ego. You keep getting off point. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted August 19, 2015 Posted August 19, 2015 Regarding your statement, it's clear God allowed sin, I can't find an answer, this is an easy question to answer. The answer is that God created beings with free will, which was necessary in order for love to exist. Once you create beings with free will, there is the risk that love will be rejected. Robert: Why? There was nothing in God's creation that had the principle of "self" in it. So how could "self" come about in a perfect universe? Namely, how could sin happen? There's no answer. The Bible calls it a mystery. The question you asked is why God allowed sin. That's the question I addressed. The question as to why sin happened is a different question. Quote However, my question to you is not why God allowed sin, but why would God act in such a way to cause it to happen. And you're correct in not being able to answer the question I'm asking you, because there is no answer, and this is because your whole premise is wrong. Robert: Oh, I see....You have the answer, even though there's no answer, because I'm wrong and you, being of great intellect, have the answer. No, I don't have the answer, because, given your presuppositions, there is no answer. This is the reductio ad absurdum argument I've been setting forth the last several days. It goes like this: 1.Start with a presupposition. 2.See where that leads. 3.If it leads to an absurd conclusion, the presupposition is wrong. In the case under discussion, you start with the presupposition, "God knew Lucifer would sin, but created him anyway." This leads to the absurd conclusion that God is responsible for the entrance of sin. Therefore the presupposition is false. Robert:God allowed sin, as you said, to expose its true "consequences". No, not allowed sin, but allowed sin to continue. "Allowed sin" I understand to mean to arise in the first place. God allowed sin to continue to expose its consequences, as the alternative would have been worse. Robert: But that brings up another question: Why? Again, we don't know. We can speculate, but we don't know. God has revealed why He allowed sin to continue, to explain its consequences. Why do you think "we don't know?" There's the parable of the wheat and the tares. The love of self sounds wonderful, but when allowed to be practiced it brings chaos. None of this still answers why God, who knew that Lucifer would rebel against His agape, created him nonetheless. Of course it doesn't explain it, because it can't be explained. There is no reason why God would prefer a universe with sin in it to one without sin. Thus your presupposition is false, that God knew that Lucifer would rebel against His agape but create him nonetheless. Why do you even think this is the case? There's nothing in Scripture suggesting this. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
LifeHiscost Posted August 19, 2015 Posted August 19, 2015 No, you are speculating....It's clear God allowed sin, but why? I can't find an answer. I'm satisfied the Holy Spirit will lead a person to find an answer that will lead them to something that will build their own character if they will accept His answer. 31So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; 32and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."....John 8 It seems to me the more important issue is will it ever happen again after the shambles of this earth has come to an end. 9What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time....Nahum 1 The Word of God, like the character of its divine Author, presents mysteries that can never be fully comprehended by finite beings. The entrance of sin into the world, the incarnation of Christ, regeneration, the resurrection, and many other subjects presented in the Bible, are mysteries too deep for the human mind to explain, or even fully to comprehend. But we have no reason to doubt God’s Word because we cannot understand the mysteries of His providence. In the natural world we are constantly surrounded with mysteries that we cannot fathom. The very humblest forms of life present a problem that the wisest of philosophers is powerless to explain. Everywhere are wonders beyond our ken. Should we then be surprised to find that in the spiritual world also there are mysteries that we cannot fathom? ... {CSA 46.3} [/quote] God is Love! Jesus saves! Quote Lift Jesus up!!
pnattmbtc Posted August 19, 2015 Posted August 19, 2015 LifeHisCost: I'm satisfied the Holy Spirit will lead a person to find an answer that will lead them to something that will build their own character if they will accept His answer. 31So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; 32and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."....John 8 It seems to me the more important issue is will it ever happen again after the shambles of this earth has come to an end. 9What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time....Nahum 1 I think both questions are important and should be investigated. Certainly the theodicy question is not an easy one. I've spent decades thinking about it, and, of course, my ideas have evolved over time. I think it's time well spent, however, as the issues of how sin came about, and how God has dealt with it, and will deal with it in the final judgment, tell us a great deal about His character, and perhaps nothing is more important than how we view God's character. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Robert Posted August 19, 2015 Author Posted August 19, 2015 (edited) Robert, I wrote out the answer for you. No, I'm not God, I'm a mere creature who has noticed something He has revealed. So He speaks to you, but not the rest of us? I think David Koresh was inferring this... Edited August 19, 2015 by Robert Quote
Robert Posted August 19, 2015 Author Posted August 19, 2015 Why do you think if someone knows something... Another assumption. Quote
pnattmbtc Posted August 19, 2015 Posted August 19, 2015 Robert, I wrote out the answer for you. No, I'm not God, I'm a mere creature who has noticed something He has revealed. Robert:So He speaks to you, but not the rest of us? I think David Koresh was inferring this... How are you getting from my statement that I've noticed something God has revealed to God speaks to me but not to others? Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Robert Posted August 19, 2015 Author Posted August 19, 2015 (edited) There is no reason why God would prefer a universe with sin in it to one without sin. "Prefer" is your concoction... Thus your presupposition is false, that God knew that Lucifer would rebel against His agape but create him nonetheless. Why do you even think this is the case? Who do you think you are? You just don't make pronouncements like you are infallible. Isaiah 46:9 I am God, and there is none like me,declaring the end from the beginningand from ancient times things not yet done. Edited August 19, 2015 by Robert Quote
pnattmbtc Posted August 19, 2015 Posted August 19, 2015 Another assumption. No, not assumptions, inference. I infer things based on what you write. Please include enough of a quote for there to be a context, and please make some argument. Or ask a question. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Robert Posted August 19, 2015 Author Posted August 19, 2015 One of the biggest problems that God faces before He can eradicate sin is the issue of responsibility. Legally, when you deal with sin, it is “the transgression of the law.” When you deal with sin in a legal sense, there are three things: Guilt. Punishment. Responsibility. The question is, “Who is responsible for sin?” This is one of the issues that was not dealt with on the cross, that is to be dealt with on the Day of Atonement. Let me put it this way, which may solve the problem that is in the minds of many Christians. God is sovereign. That’s the clear teaching of the Bible in the Old and New Testament. That means that nothing happens in this world or in the universe without His permission or His consent. He is the Lord! He is the one that created all things. Nothing happens without Him. That’s what it means to be sovereign. Because God is sovereign, He must assume the blame for what happens in His kingdom. [Jack] Quote
pnattmbtc Posted August 19, 2015 Posted August 19, 2015 (edited) Why did you post this? It has no connection with the issue that I can see. If you see a connection, please tell me what it is. I've been addressing your idea that God knew that Lucifer would sin but created him anyway. I'm arguing that this cannot be, because if it were, then God would have set into motion a course of action which would have made sin inevitable, which is impossible. Edited August 19, 2015 by pnattmbtc Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Robert Posted August 20, 2015 Author Posted August 20, 2015 Why did you post this? It has no connection with the issue that I can see. "God is sovereign. That’s the clear teaching of the Bible in the Old and New Testament. That means that nothing happens in this world or in the universe without His permission or His consent." Quote
Robert Posted August 20, 2015 Author Posted August 20, 2015 I'm arguing that this cannot be, because if it were, then God would have set into motion a course of action which would have made sin inevitable, which is impossible. No, no, no...that's your take. Don't place your ideas onto God because His thoughts are not your thoughts. Quote
Robert Posted August 20, 2015 Author Posted August 20, 2015 ...I've been addressing your idea that God knew that Lucifer would sin but created him anyway. I'm arguing that this cannot be.... Okay, then God had no idea what was going on. Lucifer took Him by surprise. Quote
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