Robert Posted August 28, 2015 Author Posted August 28, 2015 (edited) Regarding love, we are created in God's image, so of course we can make comparisons. You were never in God's image as an individual. Adam was created in God's image, but that was before the fall. You are a product after the fall. You know only the love of self. So no, you and I cannot compare.... Edited August 28, 2015 by Robert Quote
Robert Posted August 28, 2015 Author Posted August 28, 2015 "If men would but take the Bible as it reads, if there were no false teachers to mislead and confuse their minds, a work would be accomplished that would make angels glad and that would bring into the fold of Christ thousands upon thousands who are now wandering in error." EGW Quote
pnattmbtc Posted August 28, 2015 Posted August 28, 2015 Me:You must surely know that this is an inadequate response. This is like someone taking the verse in Luke which says, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, today you will be with me in paradise," and as much as you try to explain that this is written in Greek, and there's no punctuation, they won't listen. Robert: No, it is an adequate response. There's no Greek...there's no punctuation issues....Take it as it reads. It's not an adequate response for the reasons I pointed out, that I quoted from Sequeira: Since Jesus spoke and the Bible writers wrote primarily for the people of their day, always consider the historical, geographical, and cultural setting of the passage you are studying. Always consider the context of the unit, chapter, and book when interpreting a text. The meaning of each verse must agree with the theme of the unit, chapter, and book, as well as the overall teaching of the Bible. When interpreting a passage or verse, make sure to study each sentence grammatically to get the correct meaning. Pay special attention to the verbs as they deal with actions. Make sure to get the meaning of each text as intended by the Bible writer or inspired speaker before making application. This is called bridge-building and is important in giving Bible studies. Difficult texts must be interpreted in the light of the clear teachings of the whole Bible. Therefore, study all that Scripture teaches on a given subject before coming to a conclusion on any single verse. The New Testament must be interpreted in the light of the Old Testament and vice versa. The Old Testament is promise and the New Testament is fulfillment. Both complement each other. For accuracy, use the best translations and, if at all possible, compare with the original text. Sequeira didn't preface these suggestions with, "only apply these if there's a punctuation issue involved." Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted August 28, 2015 Posted August 28, 2015 Regarding love, we are created in God's image, so of course we can make comparisons. Robert: You were never in God's image as an individual. Adam was created in God's image, but that was before the fall. You are a product after the fall. You know only the love of self. So no, you and I cannot compare... If we weren't created in God's image, we would have no capacity to even understand agape. God would have no way of communicating His love to us. The fact that agape can be shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost is evidence that we can comprehend something of the love of God, and know it. In fact, this is Paul's prayer for use in Ephesians, that we might know the agape of God. Agape can be rejected, just like eros can be. There is risk inherent in love, whether it's eros, or philos, or agape. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted August 28, 2015 Posted August 28, 2015 "If men would but take the Bible as it reads, if there were no false teachers to mislead and confuse their minds, a work would be accomplished that would make angels glad and that would bring into the fold of Christ thousands upon thousands who are now wandering in error." EGW Isaiah 5, as it reads: 4 What more was there to do for my vineyard that I have not done in it?When I expected it to yield grapes, why did it yield wild grapes? God expected Israel to yield grapes, but it didn't; it yielded wild grapes. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted August 28, 2015 Posted August 28, 2015 Its only a problem for you, pnattmbtc. Do you trust that God did this for a legitimate reason? If not, trust His adversary. We could speculate why He created Lucifer knowing that he would invent the principle of sin until the cows came home. Whatever....You are thinking in a limited fashion. God's thoughts are beyond the realm of your intellect. If you aren't careful you are going to think yourself out of heaven.... God called matter into existence....At the resurrection God will call the believer, who is resting, into existence in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, but yet He can't know the future? You're not understanding the nature of the problem. Also you're misrepresenting my position. First of all, I have never said God can't know the future. God knows the future perfectly, and if you'll look through this thread, you'll see that I've never said otherwise. I've not once said that God can't know the future, so you're either not reading carefully or misunderstanding what you're reading. Secondly, regarding the nature of the problem, it has nothing to do with God's thoughts. The nature of the problem has to do with whether or not the future is settled. One doesn't have to be able to think the thoughts of God to understand or discuss this issue. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Robert Posted August 28, 2015 Author Posted August 28, 2015 If we weren't created in God's image, we would have no capacity to even understand agape. Wrong.....We can understand agape, we just can't produce it. As Paul said, "I know that in me dwells nothing good". Quote
Robert Posted August 28, 2015 Author Posted August 28, 2015 (edited) Isaiah 5, as it reads: God expected Israel to yield grapes, but it didn't; it yielded wild grapes. Metaphors are being used here, but not in Ellen White's statement that God & Christ knew of Lucifer's fall from the beginning. Again, you are trying to dilute a plain statement with twisted logic..... Here's the plain statement: "From the beginning, God and Christ knew of the apostasy of Satan, and of the fall of man through the deceptive power of the apostate." Edited August 28, 2015 by Robert Quote
Robert Posted August 28, 2015 Author Posted August 28, 2015 One doesn't have to be able to think the thoughts of God to understand or discuss this issue. Understand? You are very presumptuous.... Quote
pnattmbtc Posted August 28, 2015 Posted August 28, 2015 (edited) Isaiah 5, as it reads: God expected Israel to yield grapes, but it didn't; it yielded wild grapes. Robert: Metaphors are being used here, but not in Ellen White's statement that God & Christ knew of Lucifer's fall from the beginning. There's no metaphor being used in regards to expectation. The intents if obvious; God expected Israel to be one (good), but they were another (bad). One doesn't have to be able to think the thoughts of God to understand or discuss this issue. Robert: Understand? You are very presumptuous.... To understand or discuss the nature of the future? Why would one need to think the thoughts of God to discuss or understand this? Where's the presumption? This isn't nearly as difficult as, say, quantum mechanics or abstract algebra. Is one being presumption to think one can discuss or understand things like that? Edited August 28, 2015 by pnattmbtc Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Robert Posted August 28, 2015 Author Posted August 28, 2015 Is one being presumption to think one can discuss or understand things like that? You can't possibly understand or explain how God can see the future. You don't have the intellect..... Quote
Robert Posted August 28, 2015 Author Posted August 28, 2015 (edited) Where's the presumption? This isn't nearly as difficult as, say, quantum mechanics or abstract algebra. That's presumption!!!! In other words understanding how God thinks or can see the future is easier than " quantum mechanics or abstract algebra." Again, that's presumption...nay, pride. Edited August 28, 2015 by Robert Quote
Robert Posted August 29, 2015 Author Posted August 29, 2015 (edited) So we are back to what Jack Sequeria stated: The thing is this: who is responsible for sin? One of the clear teachings of the Bible is the sovereignty of God. That means that nothing happens in the universe without the permission of God. That’s what it means. God is sovereign. Did God know that Lucifer would sin? Yes. Then why did He create him? That’s one of the big questions. If God is sovereign, then He has allowed Satan to come in. He has allowed Satan to tempt Adam and Eve. This has created a problem and this was not solved on the cross. Let me give you an illustration. When Adam sinned and God came to visit him, what did he say to God when God asked why did you sin? He said, “This woman, whom You gave....” So upon whom was he putting the blame? On God. Today you will hear it all the time: “If God is love why is He allowing all the sicknesses and problems? If God is love, why is He allowing a drought in America?” These are the kind of questions that have to be solved if the great controversy is to come to an end. So what does God do? God actually assumes the blame! He assumes the blame until the Day of Atonement. There is a text which I want you to look for, it’s in the Old Testament, where God is speaking. He says, “I have created evil.” You will find many texts in the Bible where God assumes the blame for many things. For instance God said, “I have hardened Pharaoh’s heart.” These texts cause a lot of problems to many Christians. You wonder why those texts are there. Well, it’s because God assumes the blame until the Day of Atonement. Because He’s sovereign and He allows things to happen, He has to assume the blame. Does He assume the blame for a good reason? Yes. But we will not know it until the judgment. Ref: http://www.jacksequeira.org/hebrew20.htm Edited August 29, 2015 by Robert Quote
pnattmbtc Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 Is one being presumption to think one can discuss or understand things like that? Robert: You can't possibly understand or explain how God can see the future. You don't have the intellect..... First of all, because you don't understand something, doesn't mean somebody else doesn't. Secondly, I was discussing how God can see the future. Your response here makes me wonder if you even read what I wrote. My post addressed the nature of the future. This is an ontological issue (meaning it deals with how things are), not epistemological (meaning it deals with one's knowledge of things). Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 Where's the presumption? This isn't nearly as difficult as, say, quantum mechanics or abstract algebra. Robert: That's presumption!!!! In other words understanding how God thinks or can see the future is easier than " quantum mechanics or abstract algebra." Again, that's presumption...nay, pride. The fact that you don't understand things shouldn't be the mesuring stick for the understanding of others. Indeed, the fact that you realize you don't understand should make you open-minded to suggestions that make more sense; that are understandable. Part of your misunderstanding is not understanding the problem being discussed. I suggest you re-read my post, as you misread it. I wasn't discussing how God thinking or sees the future. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 (edited) The Sequeria quote isn't dealing with the question I've been asking you. I've been asking not why God would allow sin to happen, but why God would set into motion a course of action which would inevitably lead to sin. Sequeira is not adderssing this question. Edited August 31, 2015 by pnattmbtc Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Robert Posted August 31, 2015 Author Posted August 31, 2015 The fact that you don't understand things shouldn't be the mesuring stick for the understanding of others. Indeed, the fact that you realize you don't understand should make you open-minded to suggestions that make more sense; that are understandable. You think you have the answer, but what you have is speculation and I, for one, am not buying into it.... Quote
pnattmbtc Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 You think you have the answer, but what you have is speculation and I, for one, am not buying into it... Buying into what? Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Robert Posted August 31, 2015 Author Posted August 31, 2015 ...why God would set into motion a course of action which would inevitably lead to sin. You mean the invention of sin? Sin (singular) is the love of self. It a u-turn agape. It is what makes sins (plural) possible. As to your question, there is no answer....We can speculate, but that's all it would be.... Quote
Robert Posted August 31, 2015 Author Posted August 31, 2015 Buying into what? Your speculation.... Quote
Robert Posted August 31, 2015 Author Posted August 31, 2015 (edited) We can speculate, but that's all it would be.... Maybe sin (the love of self) was inevitable the moment God decided to create free-will beings? Why? Because self-love on paper sounds good, but once allowed to progress we see that it is the root of all evil. That's my speculation, but ultimately I don't know and neither do you. Edited August 31, 2015 by Robert Quote
pnattmbtc Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 why God would set into motion a course of action which would inevitably lead to sin. Robert: You mean the invention of sin? Sin (singular) is the love of self. It a u-turn agape. It is what makes sins (plural) possible. As to your question, there is no answer....We can speculate, but that's all it would be.... When you say "there is no answer", you are correct! There is no answer, because God would not set into motion a course of action which would inevitably lead to sin. We know this is true by what God has revealed about Himself. There is no speculation here! God *has* revealed Himself in Jesus Christ, so we know what sort of being God is. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 Buying into what? Robert: Your speculation.... What speculation? I've been arguing against a position you hold, that God knew Lucifer would sin but created him anyway. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted August 31, 2015 Posted August 31, 2015 We can speculate, but that's all it would be.... Maybe sin (the love of self) was inevitable the moment God decided to create free-will beings? Why? Because self-love on paper sounds good, but once allowed to progress we see that it is the root of all evil. That's my speculation, but ultimately I don't know and neither do you. Your idea here doesn't work. If sin were inevitable once free-will beings were created, then there would be a flaw in the process. To speculate means to form a theory or conjecture without evidence. I am not doing this. I am arguing against your idea on the basis of firm evidence. We have evidence that God would not set into motion a course of action which would make sin inevitable by considering His character. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Robert Posted August 31, 2015 Author Posted August 31, 2015 What speculation? I've been arguing against a position you hold, that God knew Lucifer would sin but created him anyway. It's not a position. It's fact, unless you dumb God down. And that's what you are doing, i.e., making Him like us, which is blasphemous. Quote
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