pnattmbtc Posted August 20, 2015 Posted August 20, 2015 Why did you post this? It has no connection with the issue that I can see. Robert: "God is sovereign. That’s the clear teaching of the Bible in the Old and New Testament. That means that nothing happens in this world or in the universe without His permission or His consent." Why did you repost this? It has not connection with the issue that I can see. If you see a connection, please tell me what it is. I've been addressing your idea that God knew that Lucifer would sin but created him anyway. I'm arguing that this cannot be, because if it were, then God would have set into motion a course of action which would have made sin inevitable, which is impossible. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted August 20, 2015 Posted August 20, 2015 I'm arguing that this cannot be, because if it were, then God would have set into motion a course of action which would have made sin inevitable, which is impossible. Robert: No, no, no...that's your take. Don't place your ideas onto God because His thoughts are not your thoughts. What are you disagreeing with? Also, your comment makes no sense. Of course it's my take. Who's other take would it be? I'm doing nothing different then you do whenever you speak or write something. Every time you do this you are expressing your take. Why do you not think you are not placing your ideas onto God when you do this? Also, this isn't dealing with the issue at hand. It's off point. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted August 20, 2015 Posted August 20, 2015 .I've been addressing your idea that God knew that Lucifer would sin but created him anyway. I'm arguing that this cannot be.... Robert: Okay, then God had no idea what was going on. Lucifer took Him by surprise. You said this before, and I pointed out that there are more than two possibilities. What you are writing here implies you see two possibilities: 1.How you see things. 2.Lucifer took God by surprise. These aren't the only two possibilities. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted August 20, 2015 Posted August 20, 2015 Robert, what I'm interested in this discussion is that if you disagree with something that I wrote, that you would present some argument as to why. I'm also interested in what it is you see about your view that portrays God in a positive way. You claim that God created Lucifer although he was certain that sin would result in His so doing. I don't see how that portrays God in a positive light, or, to put it another way, I don't see how this is in any way portraying agape. I see, rather, that God is bitterly opposed to sin, and would not act in such a way to make sin inevitable. This appears to me completely contrary to agape. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Robert Posted August 20, 2015 Author Posted August 20, 2015 (edited) You claim that God created Lucifer although he was certain that sin would result in His so doing. I don't see how that portrays God in a positive light, or, to put it another way, I don't see how this is in any way portraying agape. I see, rather, that God is bitterly opposed to sin, and would not act in such a way to make sin inevitable. This appears to me completely contrary to agape. Does the holocaust portray God in a positive light? Why didn't He intervene? He is sovereign, then why didn't He intervene? He didn't do anything! He allowed it to take place. It's like you come upon a infant being raped by a pedophile and you do nothing. Is that love? Yes? Therefore your statement is meaningless to the highest heavens. It's ridiculous 1 Cor 13:12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face.. Edited August 20, 2015 by Robert Quote
Robert Posted August 20, 2015 Author Posted August 20, 2015 (edited) 1 Cor 13:12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face.. Who will we eventually see face to face? The subject in chapter 13 is "agape". Now the Bible states that God is "agape". Agape is not an attribute of God, it's His very essence. Hence, God = agape! So here in this body of flesh, on this broken, polluted, sin filled planet, I only understand God's love dimly But then when perfection comes (i.e., when we are changed) I'll see Him face to face. Then perhaps I'll understand these important questions. Until then I'll either place my faith in God or I'll place it in "the god of this world". Asking too many deep questions leads to unbelief for our answers are only assumptions. Like for instant the holocaust. All that pain and suffering of the Jews at the hands of pure evil, Hitler, and yet God didn't intervene. Why? Why would a God who is love allow his fallen creation to endure pure evil? My answer: I don't know! I do not know why God, who is agape, allowed sin in the first place. Why did He create Lucifer, knowing that he would invent the principle of selfishness? I assume there's a good reason, but that reason I will not understand until the day of atonement. Edited August 20, 2015 by Robert Quote
pierrepaul Posted August 20, 2015 Posted August 20, 2015 All that pain and suffering of the Jews at the hands of pure evil, Hitler, and yet God didn't intervene. Why? This is one of the great questions. Every year millions of children die from illness, war, malnutrition and other causes. God does not intervene. Yet First-world Christians believe God does intervene to help them find a better job, to provide guidance on what house to buy, what university to attend, etc. I don't have the answers either. Robert and phkrause 2 Quote God never said "Thou shalt not think".
pnattmbtc Posted August 20, 2015 Posted August 20, 2015 (edited) You claim that God created Lucifer although he was certain that sin would result in His so doing. I don't see how that portrays God in a positive light, or, to put it another way, I don't see how this is in any way portraying agape. I see, rather, that God is bitterly opposed to sin, and would not act in such a way to make sin inevitable. This appears to me completely contrary to agape. Robert: Does the holocaust portray God in a positive light? Why didn't He intervene? He is sovereign, then why didn't He intervene? He didn't do anything! He allowed it to take place. It's like you come upon a infant being raped by a pedophile and you do nothing. Is that love? Yes? Therefore your statement is meaningless to the highest heavens. It's ridiculous 1 Cor 13:12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face.. What you are asserting is that God knew that Lucifer would sin but created him anyway. This is a fundamentally different issue than allowing sin to occur. The reason is that in what you are asserting, God is taking an active role, not a merely passive role. Edited August 20, 2015 by pnattmbtc Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted August 20, 2015 Posted August 20, 2015 Robert: Until then I'll either place my faith in God or I'll place it in "the god of this world". Asking too many deep questions leads to unbelief for our answers are only assumptions. Like for instant the holocaust. All that pain and suffering of the Jews at the hands of pure evil, Hitler, and yet God didn't intervene. Why? Why would a God who is love allow his fallen creation to endure pure evil? One needs to treat questions like these with great care, as suffering is not something to be taken lightly. However, these are important questions to ask, and God has provided answers to the important questions we ask (not the how many angels can dance on a pin type questions, but the questions which involve His character.) For example, we have the book of Job which deals with the question of suffering. However, the assertion that "God knew Lucifer would sin but created him anyway" is not the same type of question as the suffering question, because God's role would be active in the first one, but passive in the second. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted August 20, 2015 Posted August 20, 2015 By the way, regarding suffering, a good book is "Is God to Blame?" Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted August 20, 2015 Posted August 20, 2015 This is one of the great questions. Every year millions of children die from illness, war, malnutrition and other causes. God does not intervene. Yet First-world Christians believe God does intervene to help them find a better job, to provide guidance on what house to buy, what university to attend, etc. I don't have the answers either. This is an interesting observation. It's interesting what people think God is most concerned about. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Robert Posted August 20, 2015 Author Posted August 20, 2015 (edited) What you are asserting is that God knew that Lucifer would sin but created him anyway. This is a fundamentally different issue than allowing sin to occur. The reason is that in what you are asserting, God is taking an active role, not a merely passive role. What you are asserting is that God is not all-knowing...that He is not omniscient and that He takes risks with no idea what will come of His creations...Passive or active, its still God's problem because He allowed it. He has to take responsibility. Edited August 20, 2015 by Robert Quote
pnattmbtc Posted August 20, 2015 Posted August 20, 2015 (edited) Robert: What you are asserting is that God is not all-knowing...that He is not omniscient and that He takes risks with no idea what will come of His creations...Passive or active, its still God's problem because He allowed it. He has to take responsibility. No, I haven't been asserting this. In fact, if you read over the thread, you will see that I have asserted the opposite, many times in fact. God is omniscient. I've said this consistently, many times, throughout this thread. You are correct that I have been asserting that God takes risks. I have not asserted that God has no idea what will come of His creations, however, I'm sure that it was not God's plan that sin should happen. That was a risk, not a plan. It was something God allowed to happen, true, but that's a far cry from what you are asserting, which is that God caused sin to happen by creating a being He was certain would sin. Surely it would have been better for God to have created a creature He was certain wouldn't sin. This is so obvious! You have two choices: 1.Create a being you are certain will sin (e.g. Lucifer). 2.Create a being you are certain will not sin (e.g. someone other than Lucifer). There is no reason God, who is agape, would choose 1 over 2. You keep asserting the same thing, that God created Lucifer knowing he would sin, but there's an obvious flaw in this assumption. The way around this is to try a different assumption. Edited August 20, 2015 by pnattmbtc Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Robert Posted August 21, 2015 Author Posted August 21, 2015 (edited) You keep asserting the same thing, that God created Lucifer knowing he would sin, but there's an obvious flaw in this assumption. The way around this is to try a different assumption. No, you try a different assumption! You are the one out in left field. You are adrift on a open sea without compass or stars to guide you. God knew Lucifer would rebel just as He knows that affliction (sin) will not arise a second time. Edited August 21, 2015 by Robert Quote
Robert Posted August 21, 2015 Author Posted August 21, 2015 Sin originated with him who, next to Christ, had been most honored of God and who stood highest in power and glory among the inhabitants of heaven.... (EGW) Isn't it ironic that Lucifer, who was highest in power and glory under God, the created being who actually introduced the principle of "self"? I mean it wasn't unfallen, human beings like Mr. Smith on planet X or Jill on planet Y! No, it was Lucifer who stood in the presence of God that sinned. Yet I am suppose to believe that God didn't know that Lucifer would sin? Come on! Quote
pnattmbtc Posted August 21, 2015 Posted August 21, 2015 You keep asserting the same thing, that God created Lucifer knowing he would sin, but there's an obvious flaw in this assumption. The way around this is to try a different assumption. Robert:No, you try a different assumption! You are the one out in left field. You are adrift on a open sea without compass or stars to guide you. God knew Lucifer would rebel just as He knows that affliction (sin) will not arise a second time. You're not proceeding in a reasonable manner. I am presenting evidence, and arguments; reasons for the things I am asserting. You are not dealing with any of my arguments, nor presenting any arguments of your own, but are simply calling me names. Please, if you wish to have a discussion, do the things that a discussion should entail. 1.No ad hominem. 2.Present evidence for your claims. 3.Respond to arguments which are presented with counter-arguments. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted August 21, 2015 Posted August 21, 2015 Isn't it ironic that Lucifer, who was highest in power and glory under God, the created being who actually introduced the principle of "self"? I mean it wasn't unfallen, human beings like Mr. Smith on planet X or Jill on planet Y! No, it was Lucifer who stood in the presence of God that sinned. Yet I am suppose to believe that God didn't know that Lucifer would sin? Come on! It looks like your thought is that God created Lucifer on purpose so he would sin. Why would God do this? Did God want sin to happen? If you take your assertions to their logical conclusion, then it must be the case that God wanted sin to happen. This is simple logic from what you are asserting ("God knew Lucifer would sin, but created Him anyway). I disagree. God did *not* want sin to happen, not the, or ever. The judgment will show that God is innocent of any wrong-doing. There was no mistake in what God did. God was in no way responsible for the entrance of sin. Your idea cannot be correct, because it leads to an absurd conclusion. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Robert Posted August 21, 2015 Author Posted August 21, 2015 (edited) You're not proceeding in a reasonable manner. I am presenting evidence, and arguments; reasons for the things I am asserting. You are not dealing with any of my arguments, nor presenting any arguments of your own, but are simply calling me names. Please, if you wish to have a discussion, do the things that a discussion should entail. 1.No ad hominem. 2.Present evidence for your claims. 3.Respond to arguments which are presented with counter-arguments. Your arguments are speculative in nature....Therefore no response is necessary. Edited August 21, 2015 by Robert Quote
Robert Posted August 21, 2015 Author Posted August 21, 2015 It looks like your thought is that God created Lucifer on purpose so he would sin. Why would God do this? Did God want sin to happen? Questions to ask God, not me.... Quote
Robert Posted August 21, 2015 Author Posted August 21, 2015 God was in no way responsible for the entrance of sin. Your idea cannot be correct, because it leads to an absurd conclusion. Wrong, wrong, wrong....God is responsible....He is sovereign. However, He is not the author of sin...nevertheless He did allow its existence. Quote
pnattmbtc Posted August 21, 2015 Posted August 21, 2015 Robert: Your arguments are speculative in nature....Therefore no response is necessary. My arguments are based on your premise! It can only be speculative if your premise is speculative. I'm showing, by logic, that your premise leads to an absurd conclusion. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted August 21, 2015 Posted August 21, 2015 God was in no way responsible for the entrance of sin. Your idea cannot be correct, because it leads to an absurd conclusion. Robert: Wrong, wrong, wrong....God is responsible....He is sovereign. This is the charge of the enemy. The judgement will show that God is innocent of these charges; God is in no way responsible for the entrance of sin! Just like "The Great Controversy" states. However, He is not the author of sin...nevertheless He did allow its existence. God did allow it, but He did not cause it to come about, as your faulty premise implies, by the argument I presented. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted August 21, 2015 Posted August 21, 2015 It looks like your thought is that God created Lucifer on purpose so he would sin. Why would God do this? Did God want sin to happen? Robert: Questions to ask God, not me.... I don't need to ask God, because God has answered these questions, and I'm happy with the answers He has provided. My disagreement is with you, not Him. Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Robert Posted August 22, 2015 Author Posted August 22, 2015 (edited) I don't need to ask God, because God has answered these questions, and I'm happy with the answers He has provided. My disagreement is with you, not Him. You haven't supplied any answers, just tons of speculation. Edited August 22, 2015 by Robert Quote
Robert Posted August 22, 2015 Author Posted August 22, 2015 This is the charge of the enemy. The judgement will show that God is innocent of these charges; God is in no way responsible for the entrance of sin! Just like "The Great Controversy" states. The Great Controversy? What about "what the Bible states"? That's the standard...the measuring stick of truth. Quote
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.