Should We Abandon our 666 traditional Interpretation?

[samkadya]

Below is our traditional interpretation of the number 666 found in Revelation 13 and below is one of the challenges and which incidentally is the positon of most of our respected theologians nowadays. Isn't it time to officially abandon this traditonal interpretation?

The papacy clearly claims to be the Vicar of the Son of God, "Vicarius Filii Dei," in her own language. Note the "number of his name":

 

V = 5

I = 1

C = 100

A = 0

R = 0

I = 1

U = 5 (U is the same as V)

S = 0

F = 0

I = 1

L = 50

I = 1

I = 1

D = 500

E = 0

I = 1

________________

TOTAL: 666

Read more: http://www.christiansermonsandmusicvideos.com/2015/01/revelation-chap-13-beast-from-sea.htm
Below is the challenge from http://www.amazingfiction.org/666-pope.shtml

Uriah Smith, J.N. Andrews and other early Adventists adopted the teaching and used it in their evangelistic efforts. The main weakness of the SDA position is that the title "Vicarius Filii Dei" was never officially used by the Catholic Church as a title for the Pope. In fact, the one document in which it appears, the Donation of Constantine, is widely recognized as a forgery. Some have claimed the title appeared on the papal tiara or mitre, but of the thousands of images painted and photographed over more than 1,000 years of Catholic history, the title does not appear on any image. No evidence has ever been produced by Seventh-day Adventists to substantiate the claim that the title "Vicarius Filii Dei" is used to designate the Pope.

Since real evidence was lacking, some Adventists resorted to fraud and trickery to substantiate their groundless claim about "Vicarius Filii Dei" being the title of the pope:

To promote the claim in the mid 20th century, one Adventist book included a doctored photograph of a papal tiara with the words "Vicarius Filii Dei" added by an artist. The book was a republished edition of Uriah Smith's Daniel and Revelation, by the Southern Publishing Association (now merged with Review and Herald). The original photograph was taken by English evangelist C. T. Everson at the Vatican Museums, on assignment from W. W. Prescott. However Prescott, the leading opponent of the interpretation in his day, was shocked when he saw the modified photograph in the book. The General Conference gave orders to cease the book's printing until the photograph be removed.⁵

In conclusion, Seventh-day Adventists are unable to substantiate the claim that the number 666 can be connected to the papacy, and in recent years SDA scholars have abandoned that view, while at the same time, others in the sect continue to foist the fraudulent teaching upon unsuspecting people.  Source

Edited June 28, 2015 by samkadya
spelling errors and removing two word in 1st para

[Robert]

One interpretation is simply that 666 represents humankind in general because of the special significance that the number has in the Bible. Six is known as an "imperfect number" because it is one short of seven, the "perfect number" (seven days in the week, seven tongues of flame, seven spiritual gifts...). So three (the number of the Trinity) sixes is seen as extremely imperfect. Therefore, 666 represents imperfect man, while 777 represents God.

[hch]

As the beast is identifiable by its number, the image beast should have the same number or how can it truly be an image to the beast? But if we are satisfied with the past light given about the beast and its number, will our position allow past truth to be a barrier to new light (Present Truth) when it comes in its time?

"Those who become confused in their understanding of the Word, who fail to see the meaning of antichrist, will surely place themselves on the side of antichrist. There is no time now for us to assimilate with the world. Daniel is standing in his lot and in his place. The prophecies of Daniel and of John are to be understood. They interpret each other. They give to the world truths which every one should understand. These prophecies are to be witnesses in the world. By their fulfillment in these last days they will explain themselves."  [EGW 1900] {7BC 949.6} 

"By their fulfillment in these last days [after 1900] they will explain themselves."?

[8thdaypriest]

Think bar code.  Think credit card number (which is 4-4-4).  A system using  a number with 6 digits - 6 digits - 6 digits, could number every human being on the planet, enabling them to buy or sell - WITH this number.  Yes - it is "the number of a man".  It will be the identifying number of an individual person. 

[B/W Photodude]

Think bar code.  Think credit card number (which is 4-4-4).  A system using  a number with 6 digits - 6 digits - 6 digits, could number every human being on the planet, enabling them to buy or sell - WITH this number.  Yes - it is "the number of a man".  It will be the identifying number of an individual person. 

You make it too complicated. All they really have to do is put a disclaimer on the credit/debit card stating "use of this card implies agreement in full with the ideals of Sunday as the Sabbath of God" and no Sabbath keeping child of God would use the card!

[LifeHiscost]

Since 666 is only one of the characteristics described in the Word as identifying the beast (nation), eliminating it from purview only causes more confusion (Babylon) to quibble over, during an age when even the Word seems to be viewed with uncertainty as from God (the Creator). Each will have to face their own part as expressed in the words they speak, in the coming great judgement day.

 36But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment.....Matthew 12:

 

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[hch]

Since 666 is only one of the characteristics described in the Word as identifying the beast (nation), eliminating it from purview only causes more confusion (Babylon) to quibble over, during an age when even the Word seems to be viewed with uncertainty as from God (the Creator). Each will have to face their own part as expressed in the words they speak, in the coming great judgement day.

 36But I say to you that for every idle word men may speak, they will give account of it in the day of judgment.....Matthew 12:

 

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

My study indicates that this is also true: Since 666 is only one of the characteristics described in the Word as identifying the beast (man), eliminating him from purview only causes more confusion (Babylon) to quibble over, during an age when even the Word seems to be viewed with uncertainty as from God (the Creator).

[phkrause]

What I learned or was taught many years ago. Was that "777" represented the Holy Trinity, and that "666" represented the unholy trinity.

[JoeMo]

ELLEN GOVLD VVHITE = 50+50+5+500+1 = 666

Maybe we shouldn't abandon the historical interpretation; but we should at least be open to different iterpretations.  As can be seen in the example above, trying to tie the number to a specific person can lead to some goofy results.

[hch]

ELLEN GOVLD VVHITE = 50+50+5+500+1 = 666

Maybe we shouldn't abandon the historical interpretation; but we should at least be open to different iterpretations.  As can be seen in the example above, trying to tie the number to a specific person can lead to some goofy results.

Didn't Ellen's death before the time of trouble began remove her from consideration? 

Edited June 29, 2015 by hch
one wrong word righted

[LifeHiscost]

Didn't Ellen's death before the time of trouble began remove her from consideration? 

That seems reasonable to assume, unless believing in reincarnation.

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[hch]

In conclusion, Seventh-day Adventists are unable to substantiate the claim that the number 666 can be connected to the papacy, and in recent years SDA scholars have abandoned that view, while at the same time, others in the sect continue to foist the fraudulent teaching upon unsuspecting people.  Source

I was at a meeting of the SDA Theological society at Southern University last year, and it was quite evident that the majority in attendance have not abandoned the identity of the papal beast as 666. There were questions about whether the number 666 identified the first or second beast. Both beasts fit the description. If it is the number of the beast, it has to be the number of the image beast or the second beast could not truly be an image beast.

 

[stinsonmarri]

Well the number is man and finally someone has got it right. However, did you all read the whole thing? Because as the Bible stated some will lose sight of the truth altogether!

Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six. Rev 13:18  

The number is the beast through different periods!  It takes ELOHIM'S wisdom and not interpretation because the Bible make it clear not to interpret, instead seek understanding! Most do not understand because they do not put the whole story together which is mainly found in 18 along with Dan chap 7!

ELOHIM works different then we do, so THE FATHER builds up the story in Revelation giving each time more detail understanding. It is not giving all at one time because have to understand it in simple pieces like a puzzle!

Quickly, the fourth beast was different from the other three. Dan vision was totally different from the king, these beasts or empires YAHWEH was dealing with was about their religions. That is what ELOHIM is all about going away from the Word of Truth! YAHSHUA was giving to Daniel that Nimrod's one world religion was uniting under one umbrella. YAHWEH showed that the three kingdoms had united part of Nimrod's religion that was totally against truth! The fourth beast who was totally different was not one empire but both kings and empires that would go through periods. Daniel saw the beast in his first stage and described the same beast that John saw! Dan 7:7-12, 19 21 

·       and it had great iron teeth: Rome

·       his nails of brass: Greece

·       it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: Persia

·       and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; It was not just Rome, it was many other pagan religious united

 Then John sees the same beast through time where there seven known empires attached to his head. We are dealing with their religion and these empires relation to ELOHIM'S people or truth. Keep in mind there were other empires, but they did not interact with ELOHIM'S chosen people, which was both the Canaanites and then the Hebrews. These empires are Egypt, Assyria, Neo-Babylon, Persia, Greece, Pagan Rome and finally Papal Rome. All of these empires had religion that intertwine with each other but united under Papal Rome the little horn and the seventh head! Rev 13:1-3

·       having seven heads and ten horns, and on his horns ten crowns, and on his heads names of blasphemy. The beast had seven heads beside his head!

·       And the beast I saw was like a leopard, Greece is the body!

·       and his feet were like the feet of a bear, Persia is the feet

·        and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. Babylon of Nimrod that became Neo-Babylon later in time! (The first was like a lion, and had eagle’s wings. I was looking until its wings were plucked off, and it was lifted up from the earth and made to stand on two feet like a man, and it was given a man’s heart. Dan 7:4)

 

Here is the wisdom and now you can count the beast itself because it has always been a man with imperfection.

The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth. And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. Rev 17:8-11 

How plain is the Bible if you have the Wisdom of THE HOLY SPIRIT that will lead you into all truth!! Three different time periods of the beast and we can't see it with the naked eye, we need eyesalve!

·       6- that was Nimrod he was the first beast, he created Babylon or Babel confusion!

·       6-is not was beast, the little horn plucked three up completely and became the empire of combining all of Nimrod's pagan beliefs together the Papacy!

·       6-even he is the eighth and final beast who was brought up a Catholic but left to and join completely with the devil!

 

This is the son of perdition YASHUA was talking about and Paul who saw him take the temple and sit in THE MOST HOLY PLACE! I cannot explain it all here but this is the man and this is what 666 truly means. The beast left the Catholic Church; he was their prodigy who was raise to rule the world for the Catholic Church. He realizes that she lied and he hates her and changes yes changes his belief! He accepts Satan and knows who he is and believe another lie again that Satan should rule the Universe and that Satan lost his rightful rule in Heaven! He is giving his power to take the earth, while Satan takes the Universe he thinks. He has to prove to Satan that he can take the earth and defeat YAHSHUA! The beast first must get rid of the whore and her city Jerusalem, but this is all in ELOHIM'S plan. The battle is Armageddon between the beast and the Catholic Church, while YAHSHUA is returning and probation is closed! Read it for yourself Rev Chapters 11, 13, 15-19

 

Blessings!

[BobRyan]

Below is our traditional interpretation of the number 666 found in Revelation 13 and below is one of the challenges and which incidentally is the positon of most of our respected theologians nowadays. Isn't it time to officially abandon this traditonal interpretation?

The papacy clearly claims to be the Vicar of the Son of God, "Vicarius Filii Dei," in her own language. Note the "number of his name":

 

V = 5

I = 1

C = 100

A = 0

R = 0

I = 1

U = 5 (U is the same as V)

S = 0

F = 0

I = 1

L = 50

I = 1

I = 1

D = 500

E = 0

I = 1

________________

TOTAL: 666

Read more: http://www.christiansermonsandmusicvideos.com/2015/01/revelation-chap-13-beast-from-sea.htm
Below is the challenge from http://www.amazingfiction.org/666-pope.shtml

Uriah Smith, J.N. Andrews and other early Adventists adopted the teaching and used it in their evangelistic efforts. The main weakness of the SDA position is that the title "Vicarius Filii Dei" was never officially used by the Catholic Church as a title for the Pope. In fact, the one document in which it appears, the Donation of Constantine, is widely recognized as a forgery. Some have claimed the title appeared on the papal tiara or mitre, but of the thousands of images painted and photographed over more than 1,000 years of Catholic history, the title does not appear on any image. No evidence has ever been produced by Seventh-day Adventists to substantiate the claim that the title "Vicarius Filii Dei" is used to designate the Pope.

Since real evidence was lacking, some Adventists resorted to fraud and trickery to substantiate their groundless claim about "Vicarius Filii Dei" being the title of the pope:

For that to be half true - the "Vicarius Filii Dei" title could not have existed before J.N. Andrews came along to "invent it".

The web site ignores centuries worth of irrefutable history where the Catholics themselves place that title in supposedly infallible Canon Law - in legal documents and admit to it in their own "Our Sunday Visitor". Were we simply "not supposed to notice" and just "blame all those catholic sources on Adventists"???

Where do they come up with those ideas? Who buys it??

 

in Christ,

Bob

Edited June 30, 2015 by BobRyan

[BobRyan]

ELLEN GOVLD VVHITE = 50+50+5+500+1 = 666

Maybe we shouldn't abandon the historical interpretation; but we should at least be open to different iterpretations.  As can be seen in the example above, trying to tie the number to a specific person can lead to some goofy results.

 While that is pretty funny - it is useful in pointing out the difference between the real application of Roman - (Latin names) that were actually used in keeping with John who is writing at the time of the Roman Empire -- vs just toying with English letters as if English were Latin because it is 'funny' to do that with English letters.

Edited July 1, 2015 by BobRyan

[stinsonmarri]

Some of you are sad it not looking for the truth it it is to continue ridiculing things we know are in error!

Blessings!

[BobRyan]

Rev 13

¹⁷ and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name. ¹⁸ Here is wisdom. Let him who has understanding calculate the number of the beast, for the number is that of a man; and his number is six hundred and sixty-six.

1. It does not say "it is 3 sixes" it says "six hundred and sixty-six"

2. it is a "number of a man"

3. it is "the number of his name"

4. it has to be calculated.

5. The Romans already had this system since they already were using letters that were also numbers in their own numbering system.

6. John lived at the time of the Roman Empire - all of his readers would have been familiar with this system of numbering names.

[Kevin H]

We don't need to abandon it, however we need to modify it as we have learned more. Apparently the original application comes from the name Nimrod and the number is a symbol of his rebellion. Then Nero depending on if he wrote his full name or the abbreviation came out to either 666 or 616 (both numbers we find in ancient manuscripts.) If I recall correctly Nero was the 6th Emperor (counting Julius Caesar) and a horrible monster for persecution. When he died there was a reprieve in the horrible persecution but the spirit of Nero was healed under the persecution of Domitian. We find the same spirit in say the inquisition and other persecutions from the papacy. So we can apply 666 to the papacy but it is not the only application.

Their are many antichrists, the beast in Revelation is the composite of all of these. The French Revolution, communist persecution and the fundamentalist Islam persecutions are among them. Anything that replaces Christ in our life is a part of the beast. The 7 heads are the 7 great periods of Babylon, Medio-persia, Greece, Rome, Holy Roman Empire (including Papal Supremacy), the deadly wound and the deadly wound being healed: including the healing of the 666 Nimrod rebellion and 666 Nero-Domitian-Papal persecution.

[Robert]

 

1. It does not say "it is 3 sixes" it says "six hundred and sixty-six"

Okay, you got me.... 

[Dr. Shane]

I see no reason to change the belief.  I don't think we need to be dogmatic about it but it is a good and sound possibility. 

[D_Bishop]

For that to be half true - the "Vicarius Filii Dei" title could not have existed before J.N. Andrews came along to "invent it".

The web site ignores centuries worth of irrefutable history where the Catholics themselves place that title in supposedly infallible Canon Law - in legal documents and admit to it in their own "Our Sunday Visitor". Were we simply "not supposed to notice" and just "blame all those catholic sources on Adventists"???

Where do they come up with those ideas? Who buys it??

 

in Christ,

Bob

People come here from who knows where. Many of them have obvious axes to grind against the sda church. 

[Bravus]

It's false slander, based on a foundation of lies. If we care at all about the Ten Commandments we *must* reject it. 

[Aliensanctuary]

Rev 13

¹Then I saw a beast rising up out of the sea. It had seven heads and ten horns...

⁵...And he was given authority to do whatever he wanted for forty-two months [1260 days].

⁷ And the beast was allowed to wage war against God’s holy people and to conquer them. And he was given authority to rule over every tribe and people and language and nation. ⁸ And all the people who belong to this world worshiped the beast. They are the ones whose names were not written in the Book of Life that belongs to the Lamb who was slaughtered before the world was made.^[

¹⁶He required everyone—small and great, rich and poor, free and slave—to be given a mark on the right hand or on the forehead. ¹⁷ And no one could buy or sell anything without that mark, which was either the name of the beast or the number representing his name.

The beast from the sea indicates a mass-resurrection, and from this uncountable mass of humanity, Satan's kingdom on Earth is established, overpowering the servants of YHVH during the Time of the End. Either one bears the indelible mark of YHVH on their forehead, or, the indelible mark of Satan on their forehead or hands, so once stamped, one cannot switch sides. It will be a solemn moment when we are stamped. Those bearing the mark/logo of YHVH will be easy targets for the servants of Satan who enforce the decrees of the resurrected beast.

Before choosing sides, however, everyone will have the opportunity to understand what the Kingdom of YHVH is all about via the 3 Angels and the 2 Witnesses. Then there will be no excuse for rejecting the Kingdom of YHVH.

The Lambkin/Dragon beast is a pseudo-kingdom set up to fool all of the people of the world into joining the Kingdom of Satan, and succeed it does, save for those who will soon bear the Mark of YHVH. Only by experiencing the fires of persecution can the servants of YHVH jettison possessions and pride and selfishness in order to become worthy members of YHVH's Kingdom.

Only then will YHVH's followers, with informed consent, submit to the elimination of Self, forever. Only then will the universe be safe once again because human minds will be re-programmed so that they will be incapable of rebellion against YHVH. Just as the animals we see today are programmed with certain characteristic behaviors, aka instinct, including migrations across great distances, so will humans be programmed to obey the rules of behavior for the Kingdom of YHVH. They won't even have to choose whether to obey YHVH or not because they will not be capable of disobedience.

We should pray that we will be worthy to be stamped with the seal of YHVH's Kingdom. It may be a less difficult time for us if we get rid of our stuff and our resistance to the laws of the Kingdom in today's world.

 

 

 

 

[D_Bishop]

 

Revelation 13:1-8, 16-18 provides 11 identifying characteristics. They are listed below A. Rises from sea (verse 1). B. Composite of the four beasts of Daniel chapter 7 (verse 2). A. Rises from the sea (verse 1) B.  Composite of the four beasts of Daniel 7 (verse2 C. Dragon gives it power and authority (verse 2). D. Receives a deadly wound (verse 3). E. Deadly wound healed (verse 3). F. Strong political power (verses 3, 7). G. Strong religious power (verses 3, 8). H. Guilty of blasphemy (verses 1, 5, 6). I. Wars with and overcomes the saints (verse 7). J. Rules for 42 months (verse 5). K. Has mysterious number 666 (verse 18). 666 is just one of the charecteristics describing the beast, or the antichrist.  It can be only the Roman Catholic Church.   It is the only institution that matches.  Nothing else comes close.  I have been waiting for someone to come up with a logical alternative.  No one has.  No one can, because there is no alternative.

Edited July 2, 2015 by D_Bishop

[hch]

 

Revelation 13:1-8, 16-18 provides 11 identifying characteristics. They are listed below A. Rises from sea (verse 1). B. Composite of the four beasts of Daniel chapter 7 (verse 2). A. Rises from the sea (verse 1) B.  Composite of the four beasts of Daniel 7 (verse2 C. Dragon gives it power and authority (verse 2). D. Receives a deadly wound (verse 3). E. Deadly wound healed (verse 3). F. Strong political power (verses 3, 7). G. Strong religious power (verses 3, 8). H. Guilty of blasphemy (verses 1, 5, 6). I. Wars with and overcomes the saints (verse 7). J. Rules for 42 months (verse 5). K. Has mysterious number 666 (verse 18). 666 is just one of the charecteristics describing the beast, or the antichrist.  It can be only the Roman Catholic Church.   It is the only institution that matches.  Nothing else comes close.  I have been waiting for someone to come up with a logical alternative.  No one has.  No one can, because there is no alternative.

D Bishop,

Let's look a little closer at your thought, I'll make my response colorful

 Revelation 13:1-8, 16-18 provides 11 identifying characteristics. They are listed below

A. Rises from sea (verse 1). [first beast, which is explaining the 7th head of the dragon beast in Rev 12, the papacy]

B. Composite of the four beasts of Daniel chapter 7 (verse 2). [Are the 4 beasts in the composite from Daniel in the past (King Nebuchadnezzar's dynasty=Nebuchadnezzar, Evil Meridoch, Neglassar, Nabonidus & Belshazzar) or present like Babylon, Medo-Persai, Greece, & Rome - pagan and papal) or in the future as 7:17 states (4 kings that shall arise from the earth, i.e. Americans Presidents yet to be named)? Is this beast a picture of the papacy bonded with American Presidents as it prepares to transition to the next beast?]

A. Rises from the sea (verse 1) [Daniel's vision 7:1-2  cites the sea, but Heaven's interpretation of the vision in 7:17 cites the earth as the meaning that is to be sealed until Daniel stands in his lot 12:4 & 9. So should we focus on the vision or Heaven's interpretation of the meaning of the vision? And since the sea depicts multitudes and the sea beasts in Daniel 7 arose from multitudes around the Mediterranean Sea, is the first beast in Rev 13 arising from the same multitudes (great sea Mediterranean Sea of Daniel 7:1-2) or are the multitudes in Rev 13:1 now the multitudes of people (300,000,000) that began as the sparsely populated earth?]

B.  Composite of the four beasts of Daniel 7 (verse 2) [Is the focus supposed to be on the vision or Heaven's interpretation? If our understanding of the composite beast is based on verse 2 are we choosing to ignore Heaven's interpretation as given in Daniel 7:17? Choosing to base our understanding of the symbolism on the vision instead of Heaven's interpretation will skew the meaning of the composite beast. ]

C. Dragon gives it power and authority (verse 2). [Satan the dragon (Rev 12) gives his power to the papacy]

D. Receives a deadly wound (verse 3). [papacy received deadly wound in 1798. Pope John-Paul II received deadly wound in 1982]

E. Deadly wound healed (verse 3). [1929 Mussolini restored kingdom to papacy. 1984 Reagan restored kingdom to Pope John-Paul II. Bush I restored head of all Churches to Pope John-Paul II when President Bush said Pope John-Paul II is the "world's moral leader"]

F. Strong political power (verses 3, 7). [Pope John-Paul II tumbled Communism without firing a shot. ]

G. Strong religious power (verses 3, 8). [Since the papacy was healed in 1929, the world had not wondered after any pope like Pope John-Paul II.]

H. Guilty of blasphemy (verses 1, 5, 6). [In Dies Domini Pope John-Paul II declared God's Sabbath to be Sunday.]

I. Wars with and overcomes the saints (verse 7). [When Satan impersonates John-Paul II saying touch me feel me and isn't my body in the Vatican crypt; Sunday sacredness and Spiritualism will overcome them. ]

J. Rules for 42 months (verse 5). [Before the deadly wound was healed Rev 13:3 the papacy had 1260-years of supremacy from 538-1798. After John-Paul II's deadly wound was healed he had 42-months from 9/11/01 to 4/2/05]

K. Has mysterious number 666 (verse 18). [verse 18 could be applied to both the first and the second beast of Rev 13. And those with wisdom know how it does apply to both.]

666 is just one of the charecteristics describing the beast, or the antichrist.  It can be only the Roman Catholic Church.   It is the only institution that matches.  Nothing else comes close.  I have been waiting for someone to come up with a logical alternative.  No one has.  No one can, because there is no alternative.

[Is that your opinion or Present Truth from Bible study?]