Should We Abandon our 666 traditional Interpretation?

[JoeMo]

We also should not shutter ourselves into a single interpretation at the exclusion of all others.  I don't think anyone is saying that the pope definitely is not the antichrist; but it is not prudent to focus on the papacy as the only possibility.  For me, jihadist Islam fits the bill WAY better than the papacy.

As a point of clarification, I would appreciate those who claim the RCC is the antichrist to post a reference.  I recall plenty of folks over the past few hundred years pointing to the papacy; but don't recall anyone pointing to the RCC.  God has His friends (and some enemies) in every denomination.  To denounce the entire RCC is downright wrong (if not evil).

[hch]

The 666 belief is problematic.  To "get rid of it" does not get rid of any other belief about the Pope, Rome and last day events.  We should move on to other issues.

Folks, it is problematic to base our position on one,  article that is 100 years old.  It is less than honest to do so knowing that the author of that article admitted that it was based upon a factual error.

I used to think that this 100-year old teaching was identifying the wrong beast as having 666. But as I continued to study, I learned that both beasts are linked to 666. So I have concluded that revising this position would bring confusion rather than more light.

Another problem with getting rid of the 666 papal position is like ISIS destroying the antiquities that they are capturing. For example: Babylonian and Roman artifacts have been used to verify things in the Bible. When the originals are destroyed, the evidence that verifies the reliability of the Bible is destroyed. Thus in time ISIS can argue that there is no reliable evidence to prove this or that in the Bible. Without the evidence some truth is thought to be a matter of hear say. The evidence supporting a position that has been held for a hundred years or so becomes less reliable: thus truth can be weakened over time.

 

 

[Gregory Matthews]

ISIS may have destroyed the original, but the records remain.

[JoeMo]

Another problem with getting rid of the 666 papal position is like ISIS destroying the antiquities that they are capturing.

I don't agree.  Refining or revising a theological concept which is showing itself to be increasingly questionable is NOT the same tearing down literal physical monuments to history. Revising the concept of who is the antichrist might be like remodelling or restoring - not total destruction.  There is also a difference between revisiting a 100-year old idea vs. completely demolishing a 2,000 year-old piece of human history.

[8thdaypriest]

Here are a few OTHER distinguishing marks of the Antichrist.

CJB  2 Thessalonians 2:4 He will oppose himself to everything that people call a god or make an object of worship; he will put himself above them all, so that he will sit in the Temple of God and proclaim that he himself is God. (2Th 2:4 CJB)

This verse does say that "he" will set himself up, "in place of" the true God. 

NOTE:  The ONLY person who was allowed to "sit" within the Temple courtyard, was the anointed KING, who was the Son of David. 

So far, the Pope (and all Catholics) worship the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.  So far, the Pope has NOT demanded "worship", or proclaimed himself to actually BE God.  And so far, the Pope has NOT sat "in the Temple of God".  There IS no physical Temple of God - yet.    I know - this could mean that "he will sit" as God to those who believe, because believers ARE the Temple of God (I Cor 3:16).  I just think that THE Temple will be restored on the Mount at Jerusalem before the return of Christ. 

What exactly is "worship" ?  What does that word include?  To bow down?   To serve?  To acknowledge supernatural supremacy?  What?

[stinsonmarri]

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 2Th 2:3  

 

If you read Paul along with Daniel and Revelation you will found this is in the future. The temple Paul was referring to was at the end of time because no one has ever sit in ELOHIM'S Temple. YAHWEH ELOHIM SHEKINA GLORY at one time over the Ark of the Covenant stood in YAHWEH'S Temple. Only the high priest could enter in once a year! Before he could enter he had to make an atonement for his and his family. This was very serious! 

Speaking of the Pope, he has claimed to be both THE FATHER, and THE SON!  They call him the holy father the states he in place of the pagan Jesus who I say Isus or hail Zeus. This is the true name that was changed and counterfeited as they did the Sunday for the Sabbath! You all want to believe in god and other false names when ELOHIM warned clearly not to do. Ex 23:13

The Church teaches in a simple summary that the Holy Father, the Pope, the Bishop of Rome, as the successor to Peter and the Vicar of Christ, when he speaks as the universal teacher from the Chair of Peter in defining faith and morals does so with an infallible charisma or an infallible gift through the Holy Spirit so that we can give to him the full assent of our intellect and our will, and we can hear the voice of Christ coming to us through the voice of the Pope when he is speaking in this capacity.

Now we are going to flush off on the meanings of this as time goes on, but there are three basic issues or problems. First of all, can we prove Papal Primacy, that is, that the Pope is not just the first among equals but that he has a certain primacy, a unique supremacy in relation to all of the Bishops. We have to begin by showing that Jesus conferred this gift upon Peter. The Catholic Resource Network Trinity Communications

You can not understand YAHWEH'S Wisdom and Mystery when you hold on to other false traditions!

Blessings!

[BobRyan]

Bob. you mentioned "actual Catholic Canon law:"  please give a citation.  Note, I have in my library a book of Roman Catholic Canon law.  I would like to know your source so I can check it out.

The way that you have stated your position suggests to me that you have never seen a Roman Catholic Book of Canon Law and do not understand what such a book is.  But, maybe I am wrong and I would be delighted to be wrong and willing to say so in this forum.

So, please give me a citation that I can check and from actual canon law.

Are you saying that to state with a great deal of affirmation - a point that you do not also hold -- is to claim that one does not have access to that information???

Where did you get that idea?

Recall that we have had a few posts here claiming that this information "does not exist"-- do you think people will keep claiming that - no matter the facts to the contrary??

It only takes a few minutes to access the information - so  I am curious to know when those who keep claiming it does  not exist - will spend a few minutes to notice that their claim is not at all accurate.

Regardless of what one might think about VFD and 666, one should not use an argument that is generally regarded as factually in error.  We should not base our doctrinal understanding on one thing that is clearly problematic.

A very popular view denies the fact that the 7th day Sabbath of Genesis 2:1-3 is actually our Saturday. .

Should generally regarded popularity of those "accusations" alone be all the "evidence we need" to abandon fact??

Some seem to be saying 'we will never do away with Revelation 13'. Of course not! No-one is asking you to. The text saying "let him who hath understanding reckon the number of the beast, for it is a human number. Its number is six hundred and sixty-six" is part of the Bible. It's the *application* of that to the fraudulent 'vicarius filii dei' that is at fault.

 

Why is it at fault?

Edited July 7, 2015 by BobRyan

[Bravus]

It is at fault because it is not true. That is a fatal flaw in a religious doctrine.

Your post above seems to be a long way of saying that you cannot back up with evidence your claim that the title vicarius filii dei appears in Catholic canon law: it would have been much simpler to present the evidence, if you had it.

I stand by what I have said: it does not exist in any credible source.

[samkadya]

 While that is pretty funny - it is useful in pointing out the difference between the real application of Roman - (Latin names) that were actually used in keeping with John who is writing at the time of the Roman Empire -- vs just toying with English letters as if English were Latin because it is 'funny' to do that with English letters.

Hi BobRyan,

I thought the the New Testament was written in Greek, doesn't it therefore follow that any calculation if necessary has to use greek versions of this name? I have however believe that even if we abandon this interpretation the papacy still fits perfectly with the other facts in this chapter.

Now let us inquire if the papacy fulfils these points laid down in the Bible:

1. Does the papacy blaspheme God, or assume the titles and authority of God? When Jesus forgave people their sins, the Jews accused Him of blasphemy, saying, "Who can forgive sins, but God alone?" Luke 5:21. A Roman Catholic writer says, "The priest holds the place of the Saviour Himself, who, by saying, 'Ego te absolvo' [Latin, I absolve thee], he absolves from sin. . . . To pardon a single sin requires all the omnipotence of God. . . . But what only God can do by His omnipotence, the priest can also do by saying, 'Ego te absolvo a peccatis tuis.'”

 

The same writer says further: "But our wonder should be far greater when we find that in obedience to the words of His priests— HOC EST CORPUS MEUM (Latin, This is My body)— God Himself descends on the altar, that He comes wherever they call Him. . . . They move Him as they please, from one place to another; they may, if they wish, shut Him up in the tabernacle, or expose Him on the altar, or carry Him outside the church; they may, if they choose, eat His flesh, and give Him for the food of others. . . . The priest may, in a certain manner, be called the creator of his Creator."

 

A Roman Catholic encyclopaedia says: "The pope is of so great dignity and so exalted that he is not a mere man, but as it were God, and the Vicar of God. . . . The Pope is as it were God on earth." As late as 1894 Pope Leo XIII said: "We hold on this earth the place of God Almighty."

 

2. Did the papacy "make war with the saints ... to overcome them"? During the time when the papacy was supreme in Europe, historians tell us that millions of people were put to death because they would not acknowledge the papacy as God's true church on earth. Pope Martin V (A.D. 1417-1431) said to the king of Poland regarding the Christian followers of John Huss: "Make it a duty to exterminate the Hussites. Remember that these impious persons dare to proclaim the principles of liberty.

 

"They hold that Christ came on earth to abolish slavery; they call the people to liberty. . . . Burn, massacre, make deserts everywhere, for nothing could be more agreeable to God, or more useful to the cause of kings, than the extermination of the Hussites."

 

3. How long did the papacy continue in supreme power in Europe? The Roman Emperor Justinian made a decree that the bishop of Rome, the pope, should be the head of all the churches. This decree went into effect in the year A.D. 538 when the Ostrogoths were driven from Rome. In that year began the temporal power of the papacy, which continued unabated through the struggles of 1260 years, until the fateful year A.D. 1798 when the French general, Berthier, entered Rome, proclaimed a republic, and took the pope prisoner. Many people thought the papacy was dead.

 

But not so! We shall see in a few moments how this "deadly wound" is being "healed" in our time. During the years of its supremacy, "all the world marveled" after the papacy. The great mass of mankind trembled before its haughty arrogance. Life in Europe in the Dark Ages revolved around the Roman Catholic Church. Superstition and fear held the people captive until a measure of relief came in the great Protestant Reformation in the sixteenth century.

 

Revelation 13:8-10: And all who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. If anyone has an ear, let him hear. He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

 

As we saw in chapter 11, the French had come to believe that the Roman Catholic Church was their enemy. Napoleon's army marched into Italy, determined to put an end to the papacy. Berthier took the pope a prisoner in 1798. Thus the papacy which had led others into captivity was itself led into captivity.

 

But the world has largely forgotten the bitter lessons taught in the Dark Ages. It has forgotten that the noontide of the papacy was the world's midnight. Today the papacy is making a remarkable comeback in world power. Through all the new nations of the Third World and in the Western nations, her tremendous rising power is plain to be seen. In many countries she controls education. She is building lofty and massive cathedrals, opening her arms to welcome millions of converts to her faith.

 

And other churches outside the Roman fold are looking to her for leadership. The Rt. Rev. John Moorman, Anglican leader, said that if there is to be a final unity among the churches, "there will have to be a central head of the church, and that head will clearly have to be the bishop of Rome." With the threat of world destruction if a nuclear war breaks out, men everywhere sense the need for unity and a renewal of spiritual life. They look upon the Roman Church as the only possible leader. Although the Roman Church once was wounded, the wound is being healed today.

 

Pope John Paul II's great popularity was seen in his unprecedented visits to America, visits "impossible" two or three decades earlier. A commission of Anglican and Roman Catholic theologians recommend the union of the two churches, to heal their 450 year separation. This plan would unite 760 million Roman Catholics and 65 million Anglicans, including 3 million American Episcopalians. Even Baptist Dr. Billy Graham has said that he sees the Pope of Rome as the one who should head up a union of all the churches.

 

The time is very near when "all who dwell on the earth will worship him," except those whose names are "written in the Book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." But as we see the great masses turning toward Rome, including Protestant churches which separated from her during and after the Reformation, we must not imagine that everyone is following in that direction. God has a people who will remain loyal to His Word. According to Revelation eventually there will be only two classes on earth: those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life, and those who yield to "the beast" of chapter 13.

 

In recognizing the application of these prophecies, we honor the many self-sacrificing and sincere adherents of the Roman Catholic Church. It is neither fault-finding nor bigotry to recognize the plain truth of God's word in the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation. The prophecies identify the papacy as a system. It is the outworking in history of a principle that operates in every human heart—the natural desire for exaltation and power over our fellows.

 

Many non-Catholics are equally as prone to compromising with the world as were the early Catholic fathers. Eusebius said: "In order to render Christianity more attractive to the pagan Gentiles, the priests adopted the exterior vestments and ornaments used in the pagan cult." This policy of compromise and prostitution of truth has also produced the impotent confusion pervading modern Protestantism.

 

A Catholic writer said recently: "It has often been charged—usually by the narrower sort of Protestant controversialist—that Catholicism is overlaid with many pagan incrustations. Catholicism, it must be added, is ready to accept the accusation—and even to make it her boast ... It regards the process as willingness to absorb the true, the good and the beautiful, wherever they may be found, and to indulge all harmless human propensities. The great god Pan is not really dead; he is baptized." (Theodore Maynard, The Story of American Catholicism, pp. 37, 38; imprimatur, [then] Archibishop Francis J. Spellman).

 

In considering these facts of history, this book assumes no holier-than-thou attitude. We all need the grace of Christ to overcome this natural proclivity in all our hearts. History is our story, but for the grace of God. And God's purpose of grace is to let us see into our own hearts through the enlightenment of history.

 

"He who has an ear, let him hear," warns the prophet John. Now is the time to yield ourselves fully to the Lamb who was slain for us. The crisis that is fast developing will test to the utmost the patience and faith of the saints, but God will have a people who stand loyal to His truth in the face of the opposition of the world.

Read more: http://www.christiansermonsandmusicvideos.com/2015/01/revelation-chap-13-beast-from-sea.html#ixzz3fFMwmpNW

[Gregory Matthews]

Bob, you asked me to clarify a point that I made.  O.K.

What I am saying is this:  You made a statement about infallible Roman Catholic Canon law.  in the posts that I have made in response to your statement, I have said that you neither understand Roman Catholic Canons, which are not infallible, nor do you understand the term "Canon Law,"  which is a modern term and is not infallible.   Roman Catholic Canons and Canon Law are quite different and are not the same.

However, both can be changed as neither are infallible.  In the history of the Roman Catholic Church, both have been changed in some cases.

 

 

 

 

 

Bob, to stop using the argument as to  VFD and 666 does not change our fundamental position as to the place of the Roman Catholic Church in prophecy.  It is simply one argument that should not be used.

The VFD argument is a dated argument that is 100 years old, this year.  It is an argument that is flawed in that it is believed by many to lack historical support.   There is reason to reject it as a factual argument.  You may disagree with what I have stated.  You may believe that the VFD position is historically accurate.  Fine.  Believe it.  But, find better arguments upon which to base your position on the Roman Catholic Church.

I am reminded of a time when the United States landed a human on the Moon.  I, along with many others watched this take place on television.  As I was a congregational pastor at that time, I visited one of my members the next day..  He promptly informed me that the televised video was a fraud and he could prove it.  I asked him how he could prove it.  He informed me as to the reasons that he was satisfied that   it was a fraud.

NOTE:  For those who might be interested as to how he demonstrated it to be a fraud:  He correctly pointed out that at one point in the televised program the moon was presented as a round globe in the sky as it was approached by the rocket.  He then correctly pointed out that If I were to go outside that night, I would see that the moon was not a round globe. Rather it was crescent shaped.   An obvious fraud, he said.

 

[hch]

I don't agree.  Refining or revising a theological concept which is showing itself to be increasingly questionable is NOT the same tearing down literal physical monuments to history. Revising the concept of who is the antichrist might be like remodelling or restoring - not total destruction.  There is also a difference between revisiting a 100-year old idea vs. completely demolishing a 2,000 year-old piece of human history.

The papal view of 666 was established on the best research available at the time. Now that a hundred years or so have gone by, time may have obscured some some of the proofs that established this teaching.

My point was to say that as sure as new light comes,

it is also possible that things that are common knowledge can be lost sight of.

[pnattmbtc]

He then correctly pointed out that If I were to go outside that night, I would see that the moon was not a round globe. Rather it was crescent shaped.   An obvious fraud, he said.

Awesome. 

[hch]

ISIS may have destroyed the original, but the records remain.

But how trustworthy is the record when the original is gone?

In the case of the 666, a hundred years ago the evidence was solid and godly men understood it.

But now the evidence is sketchy and they cannot find the original so people question it.

[Gregory Matthews]

You have a point.  Yes, a record is snot as good as the original.  But, we will have many records which will be better than nothing.

 

[BobRyan]

Hi BobRyan,

I thought the the New Testament was written in Greek, doesn't it therefore follow that any calculation if necessary has to use greek versions of this name?

That is an option - but they did not live under the Greek empire - but the Roman. And the "Vulgate" was the latin translation of the Bible and called "vulgate" as in the "Vulgar or common language of the people". So clearly society was going away from Greek and toward Latin as the dominant language of the common people.

 

This link takes many variants in both Greek and Latin pointing to the RCC.

http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/666.htm

 

However I think that the point that all RCC documents are pretty much in the latin text - and that the Roman citizens of John's day would have know about Latin - and that the title of the man is supposed to be the one he chooses for himself and not one we choose for him... well..

 

 

 

I have however believe that even if we abandon this interpretation the papacy still fits perfectly with the other facts in this chapter.

Now let us inquire if the papacy fulfils these points laid down in the Bible:

1. Does the papacy blaspheme God, or assume the titles and authority of God? When Jesus forgave people their sins, the Jews accused Him of blasphemy, saying, "Who can forgive sins, but God alone?" Luke 5:21. A Roman Catholic writer says, "The priest holds the place of the Saviour Himself, who, by saying, 'Ego te absolvo' [Latin, I absolve thee], he absolves from sin. . . . To pardon a single sin requires all the omnipotence of God. . . . But what only God can do by His omnipotence, the priest can also do by saying, 'Ego te absolvo a peccatis tuis.'”

 

The same writer says further: "But our wonder should be far greater when we find that in obedience to the words of His priests— HOC EST CORPUS MEUM (Latin, This is My body)— God Himself descends on the altar, that He comes wherever they call Him. . . . They move Him as they please, from one place to another; they may, if they wish, shut Him up in the tabernacle, or expose Him on the altar, or carry Him outside the church; they may, if they choose, eat His flesh, and give Him for the food of others. . . . The priest may, in a certain manner, be called the creator of his Creator."

 

A Roman Catholic encyclopaedia says: "The pope is of so great dignity and so exalted that he is not a mere man, but as it were God, and the Vicar of God. . . . The Pope is as it were God on earth." As late as 1894 Pope Leo XIII said: "We hold on this earth the place of God Almighty."

 

2. Did the papacy "make war with the saints ... to overcome them"? During the time when the papacy was supreme in Europe, historians tell us that millions of people were put to death because they would not acknowledge the papacy as God's true church on earth. Pope Martin V (A.D. 1417-1431) said to the king of Poland regarding the Christian followers of John Huss: "Make it a duty to exterminate the Hussites. Remember that these impious persons dare to proclaim the principles of liberty.

 

"They hold that Christ came on earth to abolish slavery; they call the people to liberty. . . . Burn, massacre, make deserts everywhere, for nothing could be more agreeable to God, or more useful to the cause of kings, than the extermination of the Hussites."

 

3. How long did the papacy continue in supreme power in Europe? The Roman Emperor Justinian made a decree that the bishop of Rome, the pope, should be the head of all the churches. This decree went into effect in the year A.D. 538 when the Ostrogoths were driven from Rome. In that year began the temporal power of the papacy, which continued unabated through the struggles of 1260 years, until the fateful year A.D. 1798 when the French general, Berthier, entered Rome, proclaimed a republic, and took the pope prisoner. Many people thought the papacy was dead.

 

But not so! We shall see in a few moments how this "deadly wound" is being "healed" in our time. During the years of its supremacy, "all the world marveled" after the papacy. The great mass of mankind trembled before its haughty arrogance. Life in Europe in the Dark Ages revolved around the Roman Catholic Church. Superstition and fear held the people captive until a measure of relief came in the great Protestant Reformation in the sixteenth century.

 

Revelation 13:8-10: And all who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. If anyone has an ear, let him hear. He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

 

As we saw in chapter 11, the French had come to believe that the Roman Catholic Church was their enemy. Napoleon's army marched into Italy, determined to put an end to the papacy. Berthier took the pope a prisoner in 1798. Thus the papacy which had led others into captivity was itself led into captivity.

 

But the world has largely forgotten the bitter lessons taught in the Dark Ages. It has forgotten that the noontide of the papacy was the world's midnight. Today the papacy is making a remarkable comeback in world power. Through all the new nations of the Third World and in the Western nations, her tremendous rising power is plain to be seen. In many countries she controls education. She is building lofty and massive cathedrals, opening her arms to welcome millions of converts to her faith.

 

And other churches outside the Roman fold are looking to her for leadership. The Rt. Rev. John Moorman, Anglican leader, said that if there is to be a final unity among the churches, "there will have to be a central head of the church, and that head will clearly have to be the bishop of Rome." With the threat of world destruction if a nuclear war breaks out, men everywhere sense the need for unity and a renewal of spiritual life. They look upon the Roman Church as the only possible leader. Although the Roman Church once was wounded, the wound is being healed today.

 

Pope John Paul II's great popularity was seen in his unprecedented visits to America, visits "impossible" two or three decades earlier. A commission of Anglican and Roman Catholic theologians recommend the union of the two churches, to heal their 450 year separation. This plan would unite 760 million Roman Catholics and 65 million Anglicans, including 3 million American Episcopalians. Even Baptist Dr. Billy Graham has said that he sees the Pope of Rome as the one who should head up a union of all the churches.

 

The time is very near when "all who dwell on the earth will worship him," except those whose names are "written in the Book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." But as we see the great masses turning toward Rome, including Protestant churches which separated from her during and after the Reformation, we must not imagine that everyone is following in that direction. God has a people who will remain loyal to His Word. According to Revelation eventually there will be only two classes on earth: those whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life, and those who yield to "the beast" of chapter 13.

 

In recognizing the application of these prophecies, we honor the many self-sacrificing and sincere adherents of the Roman Catholic Church. It is neither fault-finding nor bigotry to recognize the plain truth of God's word in the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation. The prophecies identify the papacy as a system. It is the outworking in history of a principle that operates in every human heart—the natural desire for exaltation and power over our fellows.

 

Many non-Catholics are equally as prone to compromising with the world as were the early Catholic fathers. Eusebius said: "In order to render Christianity more attractive to the pagan Gentiles, the priests adopted the exterior vestments and ornaments used in the pagan cult." This policy of compromise and prostitution of truth has also produced the impotent confusion pervading modern Protestantism.

 

A Catholic writer said recently: "It has often been charged—usually by the narrower sort of Protestant controversialist—that Catholicism is overlaid with many pagan incrustations. Catholicism, it must be added, is ready to accept the accusation—and even to make it her boast ... It regards the process as willingness to absorb the true, the good and the beautiful, wherever they may be found, and to indulge all harmless human propensities. The great god Pan is not really dead; he is baptized." (Theodore Maynard, The Story of American Catholicism, pp. 37, 38; imprimatur, [then] Archibishop Francis J. Spellman).

 

In considering these facts of history, this book assumes no holier-than-thou attitude. We all need the grace of Christ to overcome this natural proclivity in all our hearts. History is our story, but for the grace of God. And God's purpose of grace is to let us see into our own hearts through the enlightenment of history.

 

"He who has an ear, let him hear," warns the prophet John. Now is the time to yield ourselves fully to the Lamb who was slain for us. The crisis that is fast developing will test to the utmost the patience and faith of the saints, but God will have a people who stand loyal to His truth in the face of the opposition of the world.

Read more: http://www.christiansermonsandmusicvideos.com/2015/01/revelation-chap-13-beast-from-sea.html#ixzz3fFMwmpNW

I agree that there are a great many indicators not just the one from that one section of Rev 13.

 

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Bob, you asked me to clarify a point that I made.  O.K.

What I am saying is this:  You made a statement about infallible Roman Catholic Canon law.  in the posts that I have made in response to your statement, I have said that you neither understand Roman Catholic Canons, which are not infallible, nor do you understand the term "Canon Law,"  which is a modern term and is not infallible.   Roman Catholic Canons and Canon Law are quite different and are not the same.

However, both can be changed as neither are infallible.  In the history of the Roman Catholic Church, both have been changed in some cases.

 

all the ecumenical councils for example.

 

891 “The Roman Pontiff, head of the college of bishops, enjoys this infallibility in virtue of his office, when, as supreme pastor and teacher of all the faithful—who confirms his brethren in the faith—he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or morals.... The infallibility promised to the Church is also present in the body of bishops when, together with Peter’s successor, they exercise the supreme Magisterium,” above all in an Ecumenical Council.418 When the Church through its supreme Magisterium proposes a doctrine “for belief as being divinely revealed,”419 and as the teaching of Christ, the definitions “must be adhered to with the obedience of faith.”420 This infallibility extends as far as the deposit of divine Revelation itself.421

892 Divine assistance is also given to the successors of the apostles, teaching in communion with the successor of Peter, and, in a particular way, to the bishop of Rome, pastor of the whole Church, when, without arriving at an infallible definition and without pronouncing in a “definitive manner,” they propose in the exercise of the ordinary Magisterium a teaching that leads to better understanding of Revelation in matters of faith and morals. To this ordinary teaching the faithful “are to adhere to it with religious assent”422 which, though distinct from the assent of faith, is nonetheless an extension of it.

 

Can. 749 §1. By virtue of his office, the Supreme Pontiff possesses infallibility in teaching when as the supreme pastor and teacher of all the Christian faithful, who strengthens his brothers and sisters in the faith, he proclaims by definitive act that a doctrine of faith or morals is to be held.

§2. The college of bishops also possesses infallibility in teaching when the bishops gathered together in an ecumenical council exercise the magisterium as teachers and judges of faith and morals who declare for the universal Church that a doctrine of faith or morals is to be held definitively; or when dispersed throughout the world but preserving the bond of communion among themselves and with the successor of Peter and teaching authentically together with the Roman Pontiff matters of faith or morals, they agree that a particular proposition is to be held definitively.

§3. No doctrine is understood as defined infallibly unless this is manifestly evident.

And my reference to "Canon Law" is of course a reference to  (Anselm's, Cardinal Deusdedit's, and Gratian's Decretum, also known as Concordia Discordantium Canonum),

 

Bob, to stop using the argument as to  VFD and 666 does not change our fundamental position as to the place of the Roman Catholic Church in prophecy.  It is simply one argument that should not be used.

 

Your opinion of course .. noted.

But the facts are on the side of the Rev 13 statement and the number 666 -- for which we have VFD is a pretty good point not to be lightly dismissed.

The VFD argument is a dated argument that is 100 years old, this year.

 

 

It is an argument that is flawed in that it is believed by many to lack historical support.   There is reason to reject it as a factual argument.  You may disagree with what I have stated.  You may believe that the VFD position is historically accurate.  Fine.  Believe it.  But, find better arguments upon which to base your position on the Roman Catholic Church.

1. The 7th day is the Sabbath "is a dated argument" as well. So also the virgin birth.

2. The VFD remains as even the RCC itself includes it in its own documents.

I am simply sticking with irrefutable fact in this case.

 

I am reminded of a time when the United States landed a human on the Moon.  I, along with many others watched this take place on television.  As I was a congregational pastor at that time, I visited one of my members the next day..  He promptly informed me that the televised video was a fraud and he could prove it.  I asked him how he could prove it.  He informed me as to the reasons that he was satisfied that   it was a fraud.

NOTE:  For those who might be interested as to how he demonstrated it to be a fraud:  He correctly pointed out that at one point in the televised program the moon was presented as a round globe in the sky as it was approached by the rocket.  He then correctly pointed out that If I were to go outside that night, I would see that the moon was not a round globe. Rather it was crescent shaped.   An obvious fraud, he said.

 

A wonderful "story" -- anyone can use such emotional stories claiming "and this applies to your argument". That is pretty easy.

But that is not what we are talking about here.

in Christ,

Bob

[hch]

...But the facts are on the side of the Rev 13 statement and the number 666 -- for which we have VFD is a pretty good point not to be lightly dismissed.

 

1. The 7th day is the Sabbath "is a dated argument" as well. So also the virgin birth.

2. The VFD remains as even the RCC itself includes it in its own documents.

I am simply sticking with irrefutable fact in this case...

Lest we err by allowing the VFD meaning to eclipse the final meaning that was to come after 1798:

“In the last days…will take place the final fulfillment of the Revelator’s prophecy. [Revelation 13:4-18, quoted.]” [19MR 282.1 ]

“[Revelation 13:10. quoted ]. This entire chapter is a revelation of what will surely take place.”  [19MR 182.6]

“The prophecies of Daniel and of John are to be understood. They interpret each other. They give to the world truths which everyone should understand. These prophecies are to be witnesses in the world. By their fulfillment in these last days they will explain themselves.”[7BC 949.6]

 

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[1] 19MR 282.1

[Kevin H]

The problem with radical Islam or Communism etc. is that our 666 personality will be someone very appealing to Christians, a temptation to think that we are worshiping Christ by being in fellowship with this personality. Somehow I don't see radical Islam or Communism fulfilling this bill.

[phkrause]

The problem with radical Islam or Communism etc. is that our 666 personality will be someone very appealing to Christians, a temptation to think that we are worshiping Christ by being in fellowship with this personality. Somehow I don't see radical Islam or Communism fulfilling this bill.

Exactly! Nothing that has happen by Islam has changed my mind about 666, etc., I definitely agree with your post 100%

[Kevin H]

No we do have more to learn about this. Mrs. White says that we don't know all there is to know about it and we won't know until the unrolling of the scroll. Of course the typical Adventist thinks that she is wrong and we know the whole thing. Everything in every way is only the Papacy.... while others feel that the Papacy has nothing to do with it and that it is a mistake to look at them to learn about what is coming. .

[stinsonmarri]

Well we truly don't read nor understand EGW about the papacy. TM p.112 We also do not understand that the dragon is Satan and not the papacy!

And he laid hold of the dragon, the old serpent who is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, Rev 20:2

We accept the doctrines that all Protestants use to believe about the Catholic Church and we accept their doctrines now as well. We keep Christmas, Easter, Halloween and New Year. We accept the trinity trying to put a twixt on it but it the same. We have no clue that THEY are not persons three in one, how stupid is that! We don't even know that the word person comes from hupostasis which comes from the Greek and it philosophy that the Catholic Church adopted.

Another aspect indicated by the lines on the triangle is that of mutual indwelling (or perichoresis). The three persons indwell each other in the one being of God. So:

1.     The Father is in the Son.

2.     The Son is in the Father.

3.     The Father is in the Holy Spirit.

4.     The Holy Spirit is in the Father.

5.     The Son is in the Holy Spirit.

6.     The Holy Spirit is in the Son.

Finally, each of the three persons in the one being of God glorify one another. Justin Taylor is senior vice president and publisher for books at Crossway and blogs

The doctrine of the Trinity is not well understood. Trinitarians do NOT believe that God is a family of three Persons, that is, they do not believe that there are three Beings, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, each a part of God. Trinitarian theologians explain that God is one Being, not three, and that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are "personal distinctions," or hypostases, within that one Being. These distinctions are not "parts" of God, since He is infinite and cannot be divided into parts. God is NOT a TRINITY  Study No. 161

We should know this truth but we have adopted the Catholic belief in the other things above I have mention, so we cannot understand truth if it hit us in the face. We are mix with face as did Israel!

Happy Sabbath and blessings!

[BobRyan]

Our belief in "One God in THREE Persons". Most Trinitarians will agree with that statement as well.

 

A common view of it is -

 

Edited July 19, 2015 by BobRyan

[hch]

Well we truly don't read nor understand EGW about the papacy. TM p.112 We also do not understand that the dragon is Satan and not the papacy!

 

True but the "the dragon gave him [the papacy] his power, and his seat, and great authority" (Revelation 13:2)

 

[stinsonmarri]

 

True but the "the dragon gave him [the papacy] his power, and his seat, and great authority" (Revelation 13:2)

 

Again you do not read, the Papacy is the seventh head that almost kills the beast!!!!!

And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. Rev 13:3  

The beast himself is the eighth, which indeed he came from the seventh. He was to be the prodigy child to restore the Papacy complete powers back! If you notice, why can't you notice that the woman is riding on the beast!

So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.  And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.  Rev 17:3,  11

There is two distinct things here! The woman who is riding a scarlet or sinful beast! As we know that the woman represents a church then the beast is the same beast Daniel saw. This beast is a he a man mark with 666 not at one time but three important times. He represents all religions that opposes the true worship of ELOHIM! The number six represents man's number as sinful, losing his perfect number seven. However there are two times that man's pagan religion almost overtook the true worship of ELOHIM. 

The men of Babel had determined to establish a government that should be independent of ELOHIM. There were some among them, however, who feared YAHWEH, but who had been deceived by the pretensions of the ungodly and drawn into their schemes. For the sake of these faithful ones YAHWEH delayed HIS Judgments and gave the people time to reveal their true character. As this was developed, the sons of ELOHIM labored to turn them from their purpose; but the people were fully united in their Heaven-daring undertaking. Had they gone on unchecked, they would have demoralized the world in its infancy. Their confederacy was founded in rebellion; a kingdom established for self-exaltation, but in which ELOHIM was to have no rule or honor. Had this confederacy been permitted, a mighty power would have borne sway to banish righteousness--and with it peace, happiness, and security--from the earth. For the DIVINE Statutes, which are "Holy and Just and Good" (Romans 7:12), men were endeavoring to substitute laws to suit the purpose of their own selfish and cruel hearts.  PP p. 123 

The same thing happen with the Papacy as the Bible also reveals:

I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; And he shall speak great words against THE MOST HIGH, and shall wear out the saints of THE MOST HIGH, and think to change times and Laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. Dan 7:21, 25   

Now how plain is that, the third 6 or sinful man is the beast that Daniel, YAHSHUA, Paul and John speaks of as either be burnt or destroyed!!!! Dan 7:11; John 17:12; 2 Th 2:3; Rev 19:20

In each prophet lets you know there are two foes who will rival against each other. The little horn the Papacy and the beast with Daniel, Paul see that a fallen away has to come. Who will fall away but the Papacy, and that is why EGW said we will speak lest of the Pope!!!! TM p.112 Finally, John give the whole picture in these chapters 11, 13, 16-19, John see the Papacy gaining some of her power and takes over Jerusalem that has now become Babylon. The false Jews assist her along with the Protestants including falling SDA. Remember only the five wise virgins will finish the work! Then the beast, the final six or sinful man, hates his mother the Catholic Church goes against her lying religion and all the religions of the earth. He unites with Satan who promise him the earth as he will take over the universe. But the beast has to first get rid of the Papacy and then YAHSHUA! If he can defeat YAHSHUA, then Satan's warp mind thinks he can defeat YAHWEH ELOHIM!!! Now how stupid is that! But this is his goal and the things happening today are preparing for this soon final climax! 

Sorry for the length but to explain fully it had to take time!

Happy Sabbath and be bless!

 

[Samie]

Our Master Teacher (in Matt 24:15-31) referred to the book of Daniel when He spoke about the abomination of desolation, the setting of which will trigger the occurrence of the great tribulation = the time of trouble (Dan 12:1). That the great tribulation will occur very shortly before the Second Coming is evident in His statement that its occurrence will be shortened or no flesh remains alive at the Second Coming, the capping event of the unusual celestial phenomena that will transpire IMMEDIATELY after the great tribulation.  Dan 12:1, 2 tell us of the deliverance from the time of trouble of all whose names are written in the book (of life?) and of resurrection from the dead, events directly related with the Second Coming.  This simply tells us that the setting up of the abomination of desolation will find fulfillment shortly before the Second Coming.

What has this to do with the issue as to whether the number "666" of Rev 13:18 refer to a nation, to a power, or to a person?

In the book of Daniel, the term "abomination" in the phrase "abomination of desolation" is from the Hebrew #Quvi [shiqquts {shik-koots'} ]. Elsewhere in the Old Testament, #Quvi refers to idols or images worshiped by pagans as deities (1 Kings 11:5,7; 2 Kings 23:13).  Images or idols placed in the temple at Jerusalem, like the one by King Manasseh (2 Chr 33:7), is called #Quvi (Jer 32:34).  In the whole of Scriptures, there is only one image that will cause desolation to the end time people of God, the image of the beast (Rev 13:15). Based on these information from Scriptures, I believe the abomination of desolation is the image of the beast. This beast = the little horn king of Dan 7 = the king of fierce countenance of Dan 8 = the vile person king of Dan 11 = the man of sin of 2 Thes 2, will appear in the world's arena shortly before the Second Coming because Dan 11:21 - 12:1 appears to me his exploits will be until the Second Coming.  Daniel 7:21, 22 inform us the little horn king prevailed over the saints until the time came that the saints possess the kingdom.  Possessing of the kingdom by the saints, Christ said, is at His Second Coming (Matt 25:31-34).

I believe that the beast refers to a man, a person. Who is he? We will know when he appears; and when he appears, the Second Coming is just around the bend.  But first, the Gospel that our Lord wanted preached before He comes (I call this the Pure Gospel) must be preached to the world (Matt 24:14).