What is the Probability?

[Naomi]

Of humans on this old ball of mud living a sin-free life?

[Gregory Matthews]

The answer may depend in part on one's understanding of the Biblical doctrine of sin:  The Bible, as I understand it teaches that God does NOT charge one with sin where the Holy Spirit has not convicted one on that point.  On this point, the technical answer may be "yes."

But, an aspect of sin is that which is outside of the will of God.   In our humanity we can never fully understand all that God has in mind for us.  From this perspective the answer is a resounding "no!"    And, probably the early years of eternity will involve us learning of God what we could not learn in   our human life.

[JoeMo]

Romans tells us that we have all fallen short of the mark; and that none of us is righteous - no; not even one.  We are told that us trying to change our nature is like a leopard trying to change its spots.  It is impossible for us to live sinless lives under our own power.  That's where grace comes in.  Grace - besides being unmerited favor, is the power to overcome.

Does that mean we will overcome?  In my opinion, overcoming is a process guided by the Holy Spirit.  If any of you are like me; the Holy Spirit has a myriad of issues that He and I work on together - but He sets the priorities.  I don't think He'll be finished with me before I die; I don't think we can be truly perfected until this mortal body is changed to immortal.

God is much more driven by a loving relationship than He is by perfect compliance to His covenant.  Peter says that love covereth over a multitude of sin.

Example - when the woman was caught in adultery, who was the only one qualified (i.e., He who was without sin) to throw the first stone? Jesus!  Did He throw it? Did He condemn her? No; He forgave her.  So it is with us.  God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through Him might be saved.

Do you want to be with Jesus in His Kingdom forever?  Get to know Him now.  Dwell not on your own shortcomings; but on His majesty, perfection, and goodness.  Be beholding Him; we will become changed.  We don't overcome sin by force of will and self-effort.  We overcome by resting in Him and trusting in His mercy and goodness.  We sin when we take our focus off of Him and start looking at self.

[Gerr]

What is the probability of one having a "body of sin" or a "body of death" living a sinless life? Zero, zilch, nada.

[hch]

Of humans on this old ball of mud living a sin-free life?

Needs to happen soon:

before Christ leaves the sanctuary and consigns the defective models to disassembly with the devil and his angels.

[Naomi]

I thoroughly appreciate all of your responses. I am wrestling with myself on an emotional level.  I know all the references in the Bible (or at least most) but can't quite put it together.

I believe that we can live a sin free life only thru Jesus.  I just said, "I believe"  BUT , if this is true, how do I manage to need to be forgiven almost daily for a new shortcoming: angry thoughts at a fellow driver on the street ... temptation to gossip , etc.  Or, the temptation to feel self righteous and think, there is absolutely nothing that I am doing that could be considered sin.

There are no degrees of sin, correct?

And, yes I believe it needs to happen soon. 

Your input is appreciated 'cause I am standin' in the need of prayer

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I don't think it's a sin to be tempted...  Jesus Himself was tempted...

[LifeHiscost]

 

There are no degrees of sin, correct?

And, yes I believe it needs to happen soon. 

Your input is appreciated 'cause I am standin' in the need of prayer

Hi Naomi

Our Sabbath school teacher, who happens to be a working chaplain at the local hospital, referred his class to Timothy Jennings as a very good source of spiritual reference online through a webpage entitled "ComeandReason ministry that might be of interest to you. I haven't explored it enough yet to know all of what the benefits might include but I did run into a page that contrasted by parallel lists, the law of sin and death along side the law of life or something like that. I failed to bookmark it but was very impressed at its' easy access to some highly enlightened thoughts. His name can be googled but maybe these two URLs might be a good start for what I'm satisfied you could benefit from. I will remember you in prayer that Jesus reveal His will for your assurance and comfort.

A thought was expressed by the evangelist Ron Halvorsen (SDA) that gave me some reason to hope. He said, "When I look at myself I can't see how I can ever be saved. When I look at Jesus, I can't see how I could ever be lost." And I'm of the same opinion.

Keep looking up.

http://comeandreason.com/index.php/media-center/love-truth-freedom/2-the-cosmic-conflict

http://comeandreason.com/index.php/media-center/love-truth-freedom/2-the-cosmic-conflict

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

I don't think it's a sin to be tempted...  Jesus Himself was tempted...

13No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.

1 Corinthian 10

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[Naomi]

Thank you Pam and Life,& all.  I am a  big fan of Ps. Halversons  (his teaching will linger on for a very long time) and that is one of his statements that I cherish

To be honest,I have two long-term Bible students that can't quite accept Christianity  when questioning issues which are important to them hold me to a difficult standard .  This is a big issue to them (even before last weeks SS Lesson).  Also one that I personally have questioned .  So I hope you can appreciate how I am turning over every stone in my quest to find and give them a simple answer that will deal with a complex question.

All help is appreciate

I will explore the message in come and reason. 

[debbym]

i believe "Gods ideals for us are higher than the highest human thought"  so i don't think we will be reaching that any time soon.  We are all somewhere on that continuum. 

The scripture that comes in response to these posts is "Sin shall not have dominion over you.  And we are changed and growing from faith to faith, and glory to  glory.  Our faith and our comprehension of Glory is something that is progressive.  

Another EGW quote, "when we reach heaven our lives will appear like one uninterrupted victory after another", everything in-between is removed from the history as though never happened.

We all have ample grounds for an ever deepening of humility being that we are by nature at war with our creator and redeemer, and we are helpless to think one right thought or perform one right act without our Saviors divine help.

What does the Lord require of thee?

To Love mercy, do justice, and walk humbly with thy God. It is ours to consent for the Lord of Glory to take up residence in our hearts, and however a pit we are, He delights to do so.  Can two walk together except they be agreed?  It is ours to walk in agreement with God, and when GOd calls us sinners we may agree, and when God speaks to a sin in our lives it is our privilege to agree, and keep walking with God.

We cannot afford to live putting out sin fires, rushing about here and there insanely.  We need to be Spirit seeking, hungering and receiving people and let the General of the battle against sin and all evil be in charge of not only our lives but every life around us.

[Naomi]

Thanks Deb ... I especially like "putting out sin fires"

[Robert]

I don't think it's a sin to be tempted...  Jesus Himself was tempted...

No, it's not sin unless you consent to the temptation even though you don't actually follow through with the act. However, the mechanism that tempts us comes from inside our fallen humanity.  That mechanism is what Paul calls "sin dwelling in me", which is our "bent-to-self" (iniquity).  Also keep in mind Christ as a man didn't have a sinful nature.  He assumed OUR sinful nature, meaning it wasn't His by native right, but that's another subject.

The fact that we have indwelling sin (our sin nature) disqualifies us for heaven. So even if you and I lived a perfectly righteous life, through the Spirit, that doesn't satisfy God's law.  Why?  Because God's law ultimately requires three things of us:

1] Perfect obedience to God's law

2] Justice, (the 2nd death) for failure of # 1

3]  A perfect nature, free from indwelling sin

So even if you and I lived a perfect life of obedience from here forward we have past sins that demand our death. We also have indwelling sin. Hence, at best percentage wise, that's less than 33% obedience.  So I see perfectionism (full compliance with God's law) as an impossible goal.  Besides, I am already perfect in Christ. 

 

[Kevin H]

We have two attitudes fighting inside of us: Our sinful nature or a disposition to think we are for ourselves by making less of the outside world and our deepest desire to love the world as Jesus has loved it. To be like and with Jesus.

We are sinners because we have the sinful nature. This was the one point where Jesus was different from us.

As we learn more about Jesus and as we examine ourselves by seeing where our sinful nature is in control we develop more choosing against the sinful nature. We give up things such as the 7 habits of highly miserable people of criticizing, complaining, blaming,nagging, threatening, punishing, and rewarding to control as well as the habits that are not in the 7 worst.

There is a section of Adventism which believes that last day perfection is something different from the past. They are wrong. It is NOT a new quality of perfection but a new quantity of perfection. When describing perfection Mrs. White turns like to Job and gives a description that people have noticed sounds a lot like the life of John Wesley. A faith that can withstand persecution and constantly go towards our deepest desire rather than our sinful nature.

Now at the end of time we will find Satan impersonating Christ and demons impersonating the apostles and prophets, maybe even Mrs. White, as well as our loved ones. And we will have a crisis over the Bible. Too many people have their faith not in the Bible but in Fundamentalism. What we had a taste of with Walther Rea and the White Lie we will have on a major level with the Bible. People will think "Why trust this untrustworthy book that has copying and not perfect in every possible manner; especially when we have Jesus and the prophets and apostles in person to guide us." Those of us who say I'm sorry but you are not my Grandma, and Jesus is really Satan" and hold to the Bible will feel that we are rejecting Jesus and will be lost. Especially when we see the miracles that this "Jesus" does and hear him say to us with tears in his voice "Can Satan cast out Satan?"  We will be following the Bible while feeling that we have no hope of heaven and will be lost for our choice. This minimizing the selfish reasons for doing what is right.

[Gerr]

As long as we are living in this "body of sin" or "body of death", we will continue to sin, although I believe that by grace we can come to the point where we will no longer willfully/intentionally/rebelliously violate God's .law.  Sinless living can only come when we are given a glorified, sinless body.

Edited July 4, 2015 by Gerry Cabalo
additional thought

[BobRyan]

Of humans on this old ball of mud living a sin-free life?

If no saints survive the Rev 15:7-8 point where all atoning sacrifice has ended at the 7 last plagues start - then the answer might have been "none" - but as it turns out that is not the way it will go. There will be a time in that Rev 15:7-8 time where in fact all saints will have "ceased to sin" not just a few.

Edited July 4, 2015 by BobRyan

[Gerr]

If no saints survive the Rev 15:7-8 point where all atoning sacrifice has ended at the 7 last plagues start - then the answer might have been "none" - but as it turns out that is not the way it will go. There will be a time in that Rev 15:7-8 time where in fact all saints will have "ceased to sin" not just a few.

Total sinlessness, Bob?  A total useless pursuit of a chimera. It is a subtle Galatianism, imho.  Starting with the Spirit while Jesus is still at work as a Mediator and then ending up with the flesh when probation closes? "By faith are saved by grace...."  a "process that begins by faith and ends in faith," "looking to Jesus the author AND finisher of our faith."  The perfect righteousness of Christ is our only ticket to heaven, yesterday, now, and after the close of probation.

[whbae]

What kind of life did Enoch live before he was good enough to be translated into heaven without tasting death?

[joeb]

i believe "Gods ideals for us are higher than the highest human thought"  so i don't think we will be reaching that any time soon.  We are all somewhere on that continuum. 

The scripture that comes in response to these posts is "Sin shall not have dominion over you.  And we are changed and growing from faith to faith, and glory to  glory.  Our faith and our comprehension of Glory is something that is progressive.  

Another EGW quote, "when we reach heaven our lives will appear like one uninterrupted victory after another", everything in-between is removed from the history as though never happened.

We all have ample grounds for an ever deepening of humility being that we are by nature at war with our creator and redeemer, and we are helpless to think one right thought or perform one right act without our Saviors divine help.

What does the Lord require of thee?

To Love mercy, do justice, and walk humbly with thy God. It is ours to consent for the Lord of Glory to take up residence in our hearts, and however a pit we are, He delights to do so.  Can two walk together except they be agreed?  It is ours to walk in agreement with God, and when GOd calls us sinners we may agree, and when God speaks to a sin in our lives it is our privilege to agree, and keep walking with God.

As long as we learn from our mistakes I don't believe anything like removing things from our records need to be done to achieve the quote.  God said to "come now and reason together", and as long as we are doing this we are learning at the school of Christ and obtaining one victory after another.   I think we often judge ourselves, and others, much too harshly in this area, for what is the real goal of the Christian life?  To learn to become like Christ.  If that is so, what needs to be removed from our records for our lives to have been one long uninterrupted victory?

 

[BobRyan]

Of humans on this old ball of mud living a sin-free life?

If no saints survive the Rev 15:7-8 point where all atoning sacrifice has ended at the 7 last plagues start - then the answer might have been "none" - but as it turns out that is not the way it will go. There will be a time in that Rev 15:7-8 time where in fact all saints will have "ceased to sin" not just a few.

Total sinlessness, Bob?  A total useless pursuit of a chimera. It is a subtle Galatianism, imho.  Starting with the Spirit while Jesus is still at work as a Mediator and then ending up with the flesh when probation closes? "By faith are saved by grace...."  a "process that begins by faith and ends in faith," "looking to Jesus the author AND finisher of our faith."  The perfect righteousness of Christ is our only ticket to heaven, yesterday, now, and after the close of probation.

Well there is no atoning sacrifice that is applied to the sinner after the Rev 15:7-8 event - because we will no longer have our High Priest to plead the application of the atoning sacrifice on newly committed sin. If you think that no Christians exist after Rev 15:7-8 then you may imagine a way around the problem. Or if you think that what Christ is doing in the Sanctuary is not of much importance then you may imagine some success for continued sin after Rev 15:7-8. But the Bible does not support that idea.

[8thdaypriest]

 

 

Well there is no atoning sacrifice that is applied to the sinner after the Rev 15:7-8 event - because we will no longer have our High Priest to plead the application of the atoning sacrifice on newly committed sin. If you think that no Christians exist after Rev 15:7-8 then you may imagine a way around the problem. Or if you think that what Christ is doing in the Sanctuary is not of much importance then you may imagine some success for continued sin after Rev 15:7-8. But the Bible does not support that idea.

NKJ  Psalm 110:4 The LORD has sworn And will not relent, "You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek." (Psa 110:4 NKJ)

NKJ  Zechariah 6:13 "Yes, He shall build the temple of the LORD. He shall bear the glory, And shall sit and rule on His throne; So He shall be a priest on His throne, And the counsel of peace shall be between them both."

If Jesus will be "a priest FOREVER" and will sit as a "priest on His throne" when He is also King, then His priesthood does NOT STOP at the Second Coming. 

Those who are "filthy still" are those who have knowingly REFUSED the covering of Christ's blood.  Just like those Egyptians who refused to take shelter inside the houses painted with the blood of the Passover Lamb. 

I believe the process of our recovery from the infection of sin, will take a very LONG time.  And of course, I also believe that "the rest of the dead" will be those who lived and died in ignorance, - who did NOT knowingly refuse the blood of Christ.  The redeemed from the Second Coming, will act as "priests" for those raised after the 1000 years.  It will take 1000 years of rehabilitation to prepare for that priesthood. 

[Gerr]

So after the close of probation, Jesus ceases to be my Savior?  That I will then be left alone to make it to heaven on my own? You might want to look at what sin is again, before you advance the thought that you can live a totally sinless life.  What does that say about a God who demands total sinlessess from a person who was "conceived in sin", who lives in a "body of sin", whose every "member" is "indwelt" by sin, to now live sinlessly on his own?  That is NOT good news.  That is contrary to the 3 angels' messages which are supposed to be about the righteousness of Christ, and NOT about me standing on my own righteousness.

Also, bear in mind that after probation closes, the judgment is OVER!  The saints will have been vindicated and no further charges can be brought against them once the verdict has been pronounced!

Edited July 4, 2015 by Gerry Cabalo
Addition

[Naomi]

Amen!!

[8thdaypriest]

We  lowly caterpillars can become beautiful butterflies in this life. God has promised it.

 

 

 

 

I don't remember anything said in the Bible about sinlessness BEFORE the Second Coming, except that we are told that Christ's covering of righteousness RENDERS us "sinless" in the eyes of God.  We are to be "growing" in wisdom, and in grace.  Why does it take a 1000 years before the redeemed can return to live on this planet?  Jesus COULD heal the planet instantly.  I believe it takes 1000 years to heal the damage that sin has done to our minds.  We won't be completely FREE of defensive or doubtful thoughts for 1000 years. 

We only start the PROCESS here. 

[joeb]

 

I don't remember anything said in the Bible about sinlessness BEFORE the Second Coming, except that we are told that Christ's covering of righteousness RENDERS us "sinless" in the eyes of God.  We are to be "growing" in wisdom, and in grace.  Why does it take a 1000 years before the redeemed can return to live on this planet?  Jesus COULD heal the planet instantly.  I believe it takes 1000 years to heal the damage that sin has done to our minds.  We won't be completely FREE of defensive or doubtful thoughts for 1000 years. 

We only start the PROCESS here. 

The Israelites were instructed by God to let the land rest one out of every 7 years.  One of the purposes for the millenium is to allow the entire earth lie at rest to fulfill that rest period. 

Edited July 5, 2015 by joeb

[JoeMo]

Scripture is pretty clear that no one is righteous - not even one.  That was written after man had already been around for thousands of years.  Except for Jesus, I doubt that anyone has been "righteous" over the past 2,000 years either.

I still maintain that having an intimate, trusting, loving relationship with our Saviour trumps perfectly conforming with the Law.  If we would quit focusing on ourselves by continuously wondering if we're overcoming sufficiently and digging for more sins to try and overcome; and focus on what Jesus has already done (salvation) and what His grace will empower us to do (overcome), we will have less time to focus on temptations and more time to focus on Him.  All we have to do is trust that He did a good enough job at Cavalry to save us; and don't resist the Spirit's leading and encouragement.

I say "all we have to do is ...". It may be simple, but it ain't easy.

Edited July 5, 2015 by JoeMo