What is the Probability?

[Gerr]

Response to Jackson:

Gerry:   If man could live a sinless life in a sinful nature or sinful flesh, why did Jesus not come in the same sinful nature that we have?  If what you are saying is true, why is God asking us to do something that Christ was not asked to do?

Please, check the context of Phil 4:13.  Is Paul saying I can fly to Hawaii without  boarding an airplane?  Is he not talking about the ability to adjust to any situation or circumstance?

Sin is not just a checklist of the letter of the 10c, so let's look at it more closely.

KJV 1900 | ‎Jas 4:17 °Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and °doeth it not, °to him it is sin."  The sin of omission.  Think of all the good things you thought you could do or could have done today and did not do it.  

"We shall individually be held responsible for doing one jot less than we have ability to do. The Lord measures with exactness every possibility for service. The unused capabilities are as much brought into account as are those that are improved. For all that we might become through the right use of our talents God holds us responsible. We shall be judged according to what we ought to have done, but did not accomplish because we did not use our powers to glorify God." COL 363.

 ESV | ‎Ro 14:23 "But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin."  Have you ever been unsure about something but did it anyway?

KJV 1900 | ‎1 Jn 3:4 °Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also °the law: for sin is °the transgression of the law."  Is this just talking about the 10c?  Consider this:

"Many seem to think they have a right to treat their own bodies as they please, but they forget that their bodies are not their own. Their Creator, who formed them, has claims upon them that they cannot rightly throw off. Every needless transgression of the laws which God has established in our being is virtually a violation of the law of God, and is as great a sin in the sight of Heaven as to break the Ten Commandments. Ignorance upon this important subject is sin; the light is now beaming upon us, and we are without excuse if we do not cherish the light and become intelligent in regard to these things, which it is our highest earthly interest to understand."  E. G. (1923). Counsels on Health (p. 40). Pacific Press Publishing Association.

"Many have inquired of me, “What course shall I take to best preserve my health?” My answer is, Cease to transgress the laws of your being; cease to gratify a depraved appetite; eat simple food; dress healthfully, which will require modest simplicity; work healthfully; and you will not be sick.
It is a sin to be sick, for all sickness is the result of transgression."  White, E. G. (1923). Counsels on Health (p. 37). Pacific Press Publishing Association.

Sin of ignorance?  Sin of violating the laws of health?

 Are these enough to show you that the requirements of God's 10c far transcend the letters of the law?

Transformation - YES!  But what is renewed?  The mind.  How long does it take the mind to reform the behavior of "sinful flesh/body of death?"  

"Sanctification is not the work of a moment, an hour, a day, but of a lifetime. It is not gained by a happy flight of feeling, but is the result of constantly dying to sin, and constantly living for Christ. Wrongs cannot be righted nor reformations wrought in the character by feeble, intermittent efforts. It is only by long, persevering effort, sore discipline, and stern conflict, that we shall overcome. We know not one day how strong will be our conflict the next. So long as Satan reigns, we shall have self to subdue, besetting sins to overcome; so long as life shall last, there will be no stopping place, no point which we can reach and say, I have fully attained. Sanctification is the result of lifelong obedience."

White, E. G. (1911). The Acts of the Apostles in the Proclamation of the Gospel of Jesus Christ (Vol. 4, pp. 560–561). Pacific Press Publishing Association.

In fact, the closer we come to Christ, the more clearly we see our own imperfections.  Sin remains until we receive a new body, but it does NOT reign.  We no longer willfully and intentionally follow its command.

 

 

Edited July 5, 2015 by Gerry Cabalo
confusion as to who is saying what

[pnattmbtc]

JoeMo: I still maintain that having an intimate, trusting, loving relationship with our Saviour trumps perfectly conforming with the Law. 

 This seems to imply these are mutually exclusive, or, at least, possibly exclusive.  I don't see how that's possible.  Since the law, as Jesus explained in the Sermon on the Mount, reaches to the inward being, how could one perfectly conform to the law, or even conform at all, without an intimate, trusting, loving relationship with Christ?

[Gerr]

Jackson

To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.  1 Thes 3:13 

What does "unblameable in holiness" mean?  Does it mean living perfectly sinless?  If a toddler accidentally spills his milk and messes up the floor or carpet, is he toast?  Is the child to be blamed? Is he perfect? If a taxpayer inadvertently makes an error in filing his tax return, would you put him in prison?  Furthermore, when a sinner puts his/her trust in the merits of Jesus and is justified, how much of his/her sins are still visible to God.  A justified person stands before God as though he/she has NEVER sinned!   Do you believe this Good News?

 

What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?   Rom. 6:1,2.

When you walked out of the watery grave of baptism, with what body did you come out with?  A sinless, glorified body?  NO!  It is the same "body of sin", same "body of death", same body in which "sin dwells"!  Yes, we are to 'RECKON" or "count" ourselves to sin but "alive in Christ Jesus."  and a born again sinner will: 

6 No one who abides in Him [who lives and remains in communion with and in obedience to Him—deliberately, knowingly, and habitually] commits (practices) sin. No one who [habitually] sins has either seen or known Him [recognized, perceived, or understood Him, or has had an experiential acquaintance with Him]. 

The Amplified Bible. (1987). (1 Jn 3:6). La Habra, CA: The Lockman Foundation.

Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin.    Rom. 6:6,7.

 The "old man" is to be "crucified with Christ", yes!  But how long does it take for a crucified person to die?  Depending on weather conditions, it may take many days!  For the Christian, for as long as he is alive!   "As long as Satan lives, we shall have self to subdue". Thus Paul says, "Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal bodies to make you obey their passions," Ro 6:12.  IOW, sin remains, but it no longer has to be the boss.

 

But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.  Rom. 6:22.

 

The moment you believe and put your trust in Christ and HIS righteousness, your are COMPLETELY free from the condemnation of the law.  "Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we have peace with God, through our Lord Jesus Christ,"  Ro 5:1; no condemnation, Ro 8:1.  But can you claim that after baptism you are now living a sinless life?  If not, how long will it take you to reach that point?

 

That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit Rom  8:4 

 

Whose righteousness is going to pass the scrutiny of God in the judgment, yours?  or Christ's?

I would really appreciate if you address the issues I have brought out in previous posts.

Edited July 7, 2015 by Gerry Cabalo
quotes

[JoeMo]

 This seems to imply these are mutually exclusive, or, at least, possibly exclusive.  I don't see how that's possible.  Since the law, as Jesus explained in the Sermon on the Mount, reaches to the inward being, how could one perfectly conform to the law, or even conform at all, without an intimate, trusting, loving relationship with Christ?

I don't see how they can be exclusive; I'm sorry if I gave that impression. A growing relationship with Jesus strongly reinforces obedience.  It's always easier to conform to the standards of those you love than to those you fear. On the other hand, obedience reiforces your love, as well.  You can't have one without the other.  In my life, focusing of the beauty, love and power of Christ works out better than focusing on my ability to overcome my shortcomings.  Thinking about Him is more productive than thinking about myself.

[Gerr]

Jackson

Gerry,asked, "if man could have a sinless life in a sinful nature or sinful flesh, why did Jesus not come in the same sinful nature that we have? If what you are saying is true, why is God asking us  

to do something that Christ was not asked to do?"

 That is a very good question. But , in fact , Jesus did come in our sinful nature

Hebrews 2:16   For verily he took not on [him the nature of] angels; but he took on [him] the seed of  Abraham.        2:17   Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto [his] brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things [pertaining] to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.    2:18   For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.  

 

ESV | ‎Lk 1:35 And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God."

Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit. He was born holy.  He was called "the Son of God."  No descendants of Adam and Eve can claim any of these.  So although He had a body that was "in the likeness of sinful flesh", He was not full of sin like the rest of us!  

"Christ is called the second Adam. In purity and holiness, connected with God and beloved by God, He began where the first Adam began," White, E. G. (1952). My Life Today (p. 323). Review and Herald Publishing Association.

When Adam was created, was he created with a sinful nature?

"He [Christ] was to take His position at the head of humanity by taking the nature but not the sinfulness of man. In heaven was heard the voice, “The Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the Lord” (ST May 29, 1901).

"He was born without a taint of sin, ..." Letter 96, 1898, quoted in 7BC 925.

"He could have fallen, but not for one moment was there in Him an evil propensity"

Nichol, F. D. (Ed.). (1980). The Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary (Vol. 5, p. 1128). Review and Herald Publishing Association.

If Christ had our sinful nature, He would have needed a savior himself.

If man could achieve righteousness in this sinful nature, there would have been no need for the incarnation.,

 

Edited July 7, 2015 by Gerry Cabalo
quote

[pnattmbtc]

I don't see how they can be exclusive; I'm sorry if I gave that impression. A growing relationship with Jesus strongly reinforces obedience.  It's always easier to conform to the standards of those you love than to those you fear. On the other hand, obedience reiforces your love, as well.  You can't have one without the other.  In my life, focusing of the beauty, love and power of Christ works out better than focusing on my ability to overcome my shortcomings.  Thinking about Him is more productive than thinking about myself.

I agree.  How we view God drives our thinking; how we think drives our decisions, and our obedience flows from that.  Could not agree more that focusing on Christ is the key.

Jackson

 

 

ESV | ‎Lk 1:35 And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy—the Son of God."

Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit. He was born holy.  He was called "the Son of God."  No descendants of Adam and Eve can claim any of these.  So although He had a body that was "in the likeness of sinful flesh", He was not full of sin like the rest of us!  

"Christ is called the second Adam. In purity and holiness, connected with God and beloved by God, He began where the first Adam began," White, E. G. (1952). My Life Today (p. 323). Review and Herald Publishing Association.

When Adam was created, was he created with a sinful nature?

"He [Christ] was to take His position at the head of humanity by taking the nature but not the sinfulness of man. In heaven was heard the voice, “The Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the Lord” (ST May 29, 1901).

"He was born without a taint of sin, ..." Letter 96, 1898, quoted in 7BC 925.

"He could have fallen, but not for one moment was there in Him an evil propensity"

Nichol, F. D. (Ed.). (1980). The Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary (Vol. 5, p. 1128). Review and Herald Publishing Association.

If Christ had our sinful nature, He would have needed a savior himself.

If man could achieve righteousness in this sinful nature, there would have been no need for the incarnation.,

 

I don't know if this is a good thread for this, but since the discussion has been opened, setting aside Ellen White for a moment, during the 19th century there were no SDA's who taught the prelapsarian position.  For Ellen White to have been expressing such a position, she would have had to have had a position on a vital subject different than everyone else around her, without anyone else around her knowing it.  What's more, she would have had to have kept her mouth shut about this, because she would have surely known that her position was different than everybody else's, and that the other were thinking her position was the same.

For example, she worked side by side with Jones and Waggoner, where Jones and Waggoner preached on Christ's taking our fallen nature, and she defended their position on the very subject.

Even without parsing her words on the subject, there's simply no way from a historic perspective that she could have had a prelapsarian position.

[BobRyan]

 

 

Well there is no atoning sacrifice that is applied to the sinner after the Rev 15:7-8 event - because we will no longer have our High Priest to plead the application of the atoning sacrifice on newly committed sin. If you think that no Christians exist after Rev 15:7-8 then you may imagine a way around the problem. Or if you think that what Christ is doing in the Sanctuary is not of much importance then you may imagine some success for continued sin after Rev 15:7-8. But the Bible does not support that idea.

 

NKJ  Psalm 110:4 The LORD has sworn And will not relent, "You are a priest forever According to the order of Melchizedek." (Psa 110:4 NKJ)

NKJ  Zechariah 6:13 "Yes, He shall build the temple of the LORD. He shall bear the glory, And shall sit and rule on His throne; So He shall be a priest on His throne, And the counsel of peace shall be between them both."

If Jesus will be "a priest FOREVER" and will sit as a "priest on His throne" when He is also King, then His priesthood does NOT STOP at the Second Coming. 

Those who are "filthy still" are those who have knowingly REFUSED the covering of Christ's blood.  Just like those Egyptians who refused to take shelter inside the houses painted with the blood of the Passover Lamb. 

I believe the process of our recovery from the infection of sin, will take a very LONG time.  And of course, I also believe that "the rest of the dead" will be those who lived and died in ignorance, - who did NOT knowingly refuse the blood of Christ.  The redeemed from the Second Coming, will act as "priests" for those raised after the 1000 years.  It will take 1000 years of rehabilitation to prepare for that priesthood. 

Do you really think  you will be sinning in heaven and Jesus will be pleading his blood for all of your sins throughout all eternity?

I think we all know that no Christian group teaches such a thing.

And in Heb 9 we know that at the 2nd coming Christ is not coming a priest, claiming His blood for more ongoing sins. So the priesthood the MHP ministry has stopped at the 2nd coming according to Heb 9.

 

And according to Rev 15:8 it actually stops just before the start of the Rev 16 seven last plagues.

Hence that "three alarm fire - urgency" in the SDA end time message.

Edited July 7, 2015 by BobRyan

[8thdaypriest]

 

Do you really think  you will be sinning in heaven and Jesus will be pleading his blood for all of your sins throughout all eternity?

I think we all know that no Christian group teaches such a thing.

And in Heb 9 we know that at the 2nd coming Christ is not coming a priest, claiming His blood for more ongoing sins. So the priesthood the MHP ministry has stopped at the 2nd coming according to Heb 9.

 

And according to Rev 15:8 it actually stops just before the start of the Rev 16 seven last plagues.

Hence that "three alarm fire - urgency" in the SDA end time message.

Yes - probation will close at the second coming, for those who are alive at informed that time.  The SC will be the fulfillment of the Day of Atonement prophecy types.

When Jesus returns there will be many who STILL could not choose Him BECAUSE they had mental disabilities, or were immature. 

But - I believe that Jesus will still be high priest for "the rest of the dead", who will be resurrected at the 8th millennium.  I believe these will be people who lived and died in ignorance.  It is only JUST that these people also, be given a chance to know God, to repent, and to enter the kingdom of God. 

Edited July 7, 2015 by 8thdaypriest

[Gerr]

Ryan

Do you really think  you will be sinning in heaven and Jesus will be pleading his blood for all of your sins throughout all eternity?

I think we all know that no Christian group teaches such a thing.

 

You are right, there is no such teaching.  Why?  There will no longer be any temptation from without because all the wicked including Satan will be no more, and no more temptation from within because the body of sin and death will have given way to a new, glorified body,

Edited July 7, 2015 by Gerry Cabalo
sentence structure

[pnattmbtc]

Gerry:You are right, there is no such teaching.  Why?  There will no longer be any temptation from without because all the wicked including Satan will be no more, and no more temptation from within because the body of sin and death will have given way to a new, glorified body,

But people have already been tempted, and chosen to live apart from God.  Simply removing temptation won't solve the problem, if that's as far as it goes.  People who do not love God now would not love God in heaven, simply because you changed their flesh or took away temptations they have:

A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God (GC 543)

[8thdaypriest]

Yes - probation will close at the second coming, for those who are alive at informed that time.  The SC will be the fulfillment of the Day of Atonement prophecy types.

When Jesus returns there will be many who STILL could not choose Him BECAUSE they had mental disabilities, or were immature. 

But - I believe that Jesus will still be high priest for "the rest of the dead", who will be resurrected at the 8th millennium.  I believe these will be people who lived and died in ignorance.  It is only JUST that these people also, be given a chance to know God, to repent, and to enter the kingdom of God. 

Wanted to add just one more thought.  The ROLE of a "priest" included more than just making "atonement".  The priests taught the Law, and governed.  The Son of God can certainly remain the mediator to explain the things of God to us, and to govern us.  Those were His roles in Heaven BEFORE the rebellion of Lucifer. 

[LifeHiscost]

Wanted to add just one more thought.  The ROLE of a "priest" included more than just making "atonement".  The priests taught the Law, and governed.  The Son of God can certainly remain the mediator to explain the things of God to us, and to govern us.  Those were His roles in Heaven BEFORE the rebellion of Lucifer. 

As I understand it, we didn't need a mediator before the rebellion of Lucifer.

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

 

 

[JoeMo]

 

Do you really think  you will be sinning in heaven and Jesus will be pleading his blood for all of your sins throughout all eternity?

I think we all know that no Christian group teaches such a thing.

And in Heb 9 we know that at the 2nd coming Christ is not coming a priest, claiming His blood for more ongoing sins. So the priesthood the MHP ministry has stopped at the 2nd coming according to Heb 9.

 

And according to Rev 15:8 it actually stops just before the start of the Rev 16 seven last plagues.

Hence that "three alarm fire - urgency" in the SDA end time message.

Rachel never said that we would be sinning for all eternity; she said Jesus would be a priest forever (actually she didn't say that; the Bible did); and that priestly duties include more than just sacrifice and atonement.  What she did say (or I infer that she said) was that sin and satan would still exist after the Second Coming. If they didn't exist, how could the "rest of the dead" choose to rebel against God and follow satan in an attack on the Holy City after the millennium?  Sin will exist until it is thrown into the lake of fire reserved for sin, Hades, death and satan. It is only AFTER the millenium and the "rest of the dead" (i.e., those who never had the opportunity to make an informed choice for or against Christ) make their decisions and are judged by Christ that sin will be eradicated.

I'm a fan of Rachel's 8th Day study.  I think it explains a lot in a scripturally sound manner.

[pnattmbtc]

Sin will exist until it is thrown into the lake of fire reserved for sin, Hades, death and satan.

What does this mean? (i.e., what does it mean to throw sin into a lake of fire?) 

[8thdaypriest]

As I understand it, we didn't need a mediator before the rebellion of Lucifer.

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

 

 

Oh - but angels DID.  Even EGW says that the pre-incarnate Christ "represented the Father to angels".    And humans DID.  The Son of God walked with Adam and Eve in the "cool of the day".  The Son of God taught them and explained the things of God His Father. 

A mediator is simply one who represents one to another.  Like a prophet is one who "speaks for another".  Christ was the prophet for His Father, and acted as representative and go-between.  And all this BEFORE sin. 

What would make anyone THINK that at the Second Coming he now knows everything there is to know about God our Father.  No way!!!  We will be learning more and more and more for eternity.  Jesus will teach us. 

[LifeHiscost]

Oh - but angels DID.  Even EGW says that the pre-incarnate Christ "represented the Father to angels".    And humans DID.  The Son of God walked with Adam and Eve in the "cool of the day".  The Son of God taught them and explained the things of God His Father. 

A mediator is simply one who represents one to another.  Like a prophet is one who "speaks for another".  Christ was the prophet for His Father, and acted as representative and go-between.  And all this BEFORE sin. 

What would make anyone THINK that at the Second Coming he now knows everything there is to know about God our Father.  No way!!!  We will be learning more and more and more for eternity.  Jesus will teach us. 

This is the meaning I've always understood and there was no variance between God and man before their fall. I find nothing in the bible that the angels that were cast out of the Kingdom still had hope through a Mediator. I also have no doubt Jesus pled with the angels for uncounted periods of time before they were beyond hearing Jesus voice of reason.

  one who intervenes between two persons who are at variance, with a view to reconcile them. This word is not found in the Old Testament; but the idea it expresses is found in Job 9:33, in the word "daysman" (q.v.), marg., "umpire."

dictionary.reference.com/browse/mediator 

  Mediator as applied to Christ, is borrowed from persons, whose office it is to reconcile such parties as are at variance, being as it were in the middle, betwixt both, soliciting the cause of each to the other, till they bring them to concord or agreement. The term is applied to Moses typically,

Deuteronomy 5:4

,5 with

Galatians 3:19

; but really and antitypically to Jesus Christ,

Hebrews 12:24

,

Colossians 1:20

,

Romans 5:10

,11 and

1 John 2:1

.http://www.learnthebible.org/christ-a-mediator.html

This is a more thorough description.

Easton's Bible Dictionary

   one who intervenes between two persons who are at variance, with a view to reconcile them. This word is not found in the Old Testament; but the idea it expresses is found in Job 9:33, in the word "daysman" (q.v.), marg., "umpire." This word is used in the New Testament to denote simply an internuncius, an ambassador, one who acts as a medium of communication between two contracting parties. In this sense Moses is called a mediator in Gal. 3:19. Christ is the one and only mediator between God and man (1 Tim. 2:5; Heb. 8:6; 9:15; 12:24). He makes reconciliation between God and man by his all-perfect atoning sacrifice. Such a mediator must be at once divine and human, divine, that his obedience and his sufferings might possess infinite worth, and that he might possess infinite wisdom and knowlege and power to direct all things in the kingdoms of providence and grace which are committed to his hands (Matt. 28:18; John 5:22, 25, 26, 27); and human, that in his work he might represent man, and be capable of rendering obedience to the law and satisfying the claims of justice (Heb. 2:17, 18; 4:15, 16), and that in his glorified humanity he might be the head of a glorified Church (Rom. 8:29). This office involves the three functions of prophet, priest, and king, all of which are discharged by Christ both in his estate of humiliation and exaltation. These functions are so inherent in the one office that the quality appertaining to each gives character to every mediatorial act. They are never separated in the exercise of the office of mediator.

     

http://www.bible-dictionary.org/Mediator 

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[8thdaypriest]

Wonder if we could use the word "translator"  (one who facilitates communication when two persons do not speak the same language), or maybe diplomat. 

Jesus was always saying, "I speak the words that the Father gives me to speak." 

The Son of God has ALWAYS been the one to represent His Father - to the created beings.  

The CROSS was a message in "God-speak".  "THIS is how much I love you."  "THIS is what evil does." 

The word "atonement" MEANS "reconciliation".   The priest makes "reconciliation" on the petitioners behalf.  We "have been given the ministry of reconciliation".  Right? 

Can we - as believers - reach "perfection" before the return of Christ?  CAN we stop "sinning" ?

1.  We ARE perfect - in the eyes of God, because Christ covers us. 

2.  "Perfect" means complete.  "you are complete in Him" (Col 2:10 NKJ)

3.  My "perfection" will be the work of Christ IN me.  It will NOT be my own work, that will bring it about.  My "job" is to ask for it, allow it, and to get out of HIS way (by working at it myself). 

I just don't worry about, or think about my "perfection" any more.  I used to worry about it - a lot. 

Jesus will bring about my "perfection" when I'm NOT looking - NOT looking at me, just looking at HIM.   I TRUST Him to do that for me. 

"He who began a good work in you, will complete it" (Phil 1:6)

[pnattmbtc]

Wonder if we could use the word "translator"  (one who facilitates communication when two persons do not speak the same language), or maybe diplomat. 

Jesus was always saying, "I speak the words that the Father gives me to speak." 

The Son of God has ALWAYS been the one to represent His Father - to the created beings.  

The CROSS was a message in "God-speak".  "THIS is how much I love you."  "THIS is what evil does." 

The word "atonement" MEANS "reconciliation".   The priest makes "reconciliation" on the petitioners behalf.  We "have been given the ministry of reconciliation".  Right? 

Can we - as believers - reach "perfection" before the return of Christ?  CAN we stop "sinning" ?

1.  We ARE perfect - in the eyes of God, because Christ covers us. 

2.  "Perfect" means complete.  "you are complete in Him" (Col 2:10 NKJ)

3.  My "perfection" will be the work of Christ IN me.  It will NOT be my own work, that will bring it about.  My "job" is to ask for it, allow it, and to get out of HIS way (by working at it myself). 

I just don't worry about, or think about my "perfection" any more.  I used to worry about it - a lot. 

Jesus will bring about my "perfection" when I'm NOT looking - NOT looking at me, just looking at HIM.   I TRUST Him to do that for me. 

"He who began a good work in you, will complete it" (Phil 1:6)

I liked this post very much, but had a suggestion or two; I'll see what you think.

First of all, the first part, up to the perfection part, I agree with everything 100%, and really liked how you put things.

On the perfection part, you right we are perfect in the eyes of God, because Christ covers us.  In this part, I ask the question,
does God need to do this?  That is, God knows us and loves us the way we are.  Does He need to look at us through Christ, as it were,
with Christ covering us?  Why would He need to do that?  I don't see this as a necessity.  It's we who need to look at God through
Christ, in order to see God as He really is.  We are the ones that need healing; God doesn't.  He can look at us the way we are.

What God is concerned about, as I see things, is if we would be happy in His presence.  If not, then it is His responsibility to
let us know, by convicting us through the Holy Spirit.

I agree with your point about not worrying about it, because we can trust that God will let us know what we should and need to be
doing, provided that's something we're interested in, with our motivation being simply we'd like to make Him happy because we are
thankful for what He's done for us and who He is.

Christ's work as "intermediary" is not limited in either time or extent. To be mediator means more than to be intercessor. Christ was mediator before sin came into the world, and will be mediator when no sin is in the universe, and no need remains for forgiveness. "In Him all things hold together." He is the very impress of the Father's being. He is the life. Only in and through Him does the life of God flow to all creation. He is then the means, medium, mediator, the way, by which the light of life pervades the universe. He did not first become mediator at the fall of man, but was such from eternity.

No one, not simply no man, but no created being, comes to the Father but by Christ. No angel can stand in the divine presence except in Christ. No new power was developed, no new machinery, so to speak, was required to be set in motion by the entering of sin into the world. The power that had created all things only continued in God's infinite mercy to work for the restoration of that which was lost. In Christ were all things created; and, therefore, in Him we have redemption through His blood. See Colossians 1:14-17. The power that pervades and upholds the universe is the same power that saves us. "Now unto Him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, unto Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen." Ephesians 3:20, KJV

Christ's work as "intermediary" is not limited in either time or extent. To be mediator means more than to be intercessor. Christ was mediator before sin came into the world, and will be mediator when no sin is in the universe, and no need remains for forgiveness. "In Him all things hold together." He is the very impress of the Father's being. He is the life. Only in and through Him does the life of God flow to all creation. He is then the means, medium, mediator, the way, by which the light of life pervades the universe. He did not first become mediator at the fall of man, but was such from The Glad Tidings Ellet J. Waggoner 52 1888 Most Precious Message, Inc. eternity.

No one, not simply no man, but no created being, comes to the Father but by Christ. No angel can stand in the divine presence except in Christ. No new power was developed, no new machinery, so to speak, was required to be set in motion by the entering of sin into the world. The power that had created all things only continued in God's infinite mercy to work for the restoration of that which was lost. In Christ were all things created; and, therefore, in Him we have redemption through His blood. See Colossians 1:14-17. The power that pervades and upholds the universe is the same power that saves us. "Now unto Him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, unto Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen." Ephesians 3:20, KJV

Boy what great software.  I'll try to fix this at some future time when it has settled down.

[pnattmbtc]

Yes - probation will close at the second coming, for those who are alive at informed that time.  The SC will be the fulfillment of the Day of Atonement prophecy types.

When Jesus returns there will be many who STILL could not choose Him BECAUSE they had mental disabilities, or were immature. 

But - I believe that Jesus will still be high priest for "the rest of the dead", who will be resurrected at the 8th millennium.  I believe these will be people who lived and died in ignorance.  It is only JUST that these people also, be given a chance to know God, to repent, and to enter the kingdom of God. 

  1 hour ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Wonder if we could use the word "translator"  (one who facilitates communication when two persons do not speak the same language), or maybe diplomat. 

Jesus was always saying, "I speak the words that the Father gives me to speak." 

The Son of God has ALWAYS been the one to represent His Father - to the created beings.  

The CROSS was a message in "God-speak".  "THIS is how much I love you."  "THIS is what evil does." 

The word "atonement" MEANS "reconciliation".   The priest makes "reconciliation" on the petitioners behalf.  We "have been given the ministry of reconciliation".  Right? 

Can we - as believers - reach "perfection" before the return of Christ?  CAN we stop "sinning" ?

1.  We ARE perfect - in the eyes of God, because Christ covers us. 

2.  "Perfect" means complete.  "you are complete in Him" (Col 2:10 NKJ)

3.  My "perfection" will be the work of Christ IN me.  It will NOT be my own work, that will bring it about.  My "job" is to ask for it, allow it, and to get out of HIS way (by working at it myself). 

I just don't worry about, or think about my "perfection" any more.  I used to worry about it - a lot. 

Jesus will bring about my "perfection" when I'm NOT looking - NOT looking at me, just looking at HIM.   I TRUST Him to do that for me. 

"He who began a good work in you, will complete it" (Phil 1:6)

I liked this post very much, but had a suggestion or two; I'll see what you think.

First of all, the first part, up to the perfection part, I agree with everything 100%, and really liked how you put things.

On the perfection part, you right we are perfect in the eyes of God, because Christ covers us.  In this part, I ask the question,
does God need to do this?  That is, God knows us and loves us the way we are.  Does He need to look at us through Christ, as it were,
with Christ covering us?  Why would He need to do that?  I don't see this as a necessity.  It's we who need to look at God through
Christ, in order to see God as He really is.  We are the ones that need healing; God doesn't.  He can look at us the way we are.

What God is concerned about, as I see things, is if we would be happy in His presence.  If not, then it is His responsibility to
let us know, by convicting us through the Holy Spirit.

I agree with your point about not worrying about it, because we can trust that God will let us know what we should and need to be
doing, provided that's something we're interested in, with our motivation being simply we'd like to make Him happy because we are
thankful for what He's done for us and who He is.

[pnattmbtc]

This is from Waggoner, the Glad Tidings

Christ's work as "intermediary" is not limited in either time or extent. To be mediator means more than to be intercessor. Christ was mediator before sin came into the world, and will be mediator when no sin is in the universe, and no need remains for forgiveness. "In Him all things hold together." He is the very impress of the Father's being. He is the life. Only in and through Him does the life of God flow to all creation. He is then the means, medium, mediator, the way, by which the light of life pervades the universe. He did not first become mediator at the fall of man, but was such from eternity.

No one, not simply no man, but no created being, comes to the Father but by Christ. No angel can stand in the divine presence except in Christ. No new power was developed, no new machinery, so to speak, was required to be set in motion by the entering of sin into the world. The power that had created all things only continued in God's infinite mercy to work for the restoration of that which was lost. In Christ were all things created; and, therefore, in Him we have redemption through His blood. See Colossians 1:14-17. The power that pervades and upholds the universe is the same power that saves us. "Now unto Him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, unto Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen." Ephesians 3:20, KJV

[Gregory Matthews]

There is a lot of truth in what Rachel said.

[hch]

I thoroughly appreciate all of your responses. I am wrestling with myself on an emotional level.  I know all the references in the Bible (or at least most) but can't quite put it together.

I believe that we can live a sin free life only thru Jesus.  I just said, "I believe"  BUT , if this is true, how do I manage to need to be forgiven almost daily for a new shortcoming: angry thoughts at a fellow driver on the street ... temptation to gossip , etc.  Or, the temptation to feel self righteous and think, there is absolutely nothing that I am doing that could be considered sin.

There are no degrees of sin, correct?

And, yes I believe it needs to happen soon. 

Your input is appreciated 'cause I am standin' in the need of prayer

" God does not regard all sins as of equal magnitude; there are degrees of guilt in His estimation, as well as in that of man; but however trifling this or that wrong act may seem in the eyes of men, no sin is small in the sight of God. Man's judgment is partial, imperfect; but God estimates all things as they really are."  {Steps to Christ 30.1} 

"The exceeding sinfulness of sin can be estimated only in the light of the cross. When men urge that God is too good to cast off the sinner, let them look to Calvary. It was because there was no other way in which man could be saved, because without this sacrifice it was impossible for the human race to escape from the defiling power of sin, and be restored to communion with holy beings,--impossible for them again to become partakers of spiritual life,--it was because of this that Christ took upon Himself the guilt of the disobedient and suffered in the sinner's stead. The love and suffering and death of the Son of God all testify to the terrible enormity of sin and declare that there is no escape from its power, no hope of the higher life, but through the submission of the soul to Christ."  {SC 31.2} 

[hch]

 

Your input is appreciated 'cause I am standin' in the need of prayer

Satan used to bring my sins to mind and beat me up over past misdeeds and sins.

While I was repenting of some things that Satan dredged up, I was impressed: "Didn't you already repent of that?"

I had. Then why was I repenting about it again? Didn't I believe that God had forgiven it when I repented of it the first time? Since it had been forgiven, why was I rehashing it now?

Whenever Satan brings up past sins, I now praise God for forgiving me in Jesus. Past sins are no longer the source of oppressive sadness, but they are the source of joy unimaginable! Those sins have gone beforehand to judgment and Jesus has faithfully cast them into the deepest sea. As Corrie Ten Boom used to put it: when God casts our sins into the deepest sea, He puts up a sign NO FISHING!

In my situation, I have noticed that the more I praise God for His forgiveness and dwell in His presence with a joyful heart, the less Satan bombards me with thoughts of self recrimination.

[hch]

 

Your input is appreciated 'cause I am standin' in the need of prayer

It took me forever to see some of my sins and even longer to have victory over them.

Satan is so sly that he'd let me think that I had the victory and then he'd come at me from a different angle and down I'd go. So it has taken years for Jesus to get me to want to have the victory over somethings. But God is faithful and He understands our predisposition to sin. Yet He has promised to put enmity - a hatred for sin - in the believer's heart.  And God keeps His word!

This gives me hope- "A just man falls seven times, and rises up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief" (Proverbs 24:16).

Did you notice that the righteous fell 7 times, but the wicked just fall (no number of times indicated for the wicked, they just give up and die)? The righteous get up again. The righteous don't give up - it is not their victory, it is Christ's victory and He has won it already for His people.

I lift my heart in prayer on your behalf. Amen

[BobRyan]

Yes - probation will close at the second coming, for those who are alive at informed that time.  The SC will be the fulfillment of the Day of Atonement prophecy types.

When Jesus returns there will be many who STILL could not choose Him BECAUSE they had mental disabilities, or were immature. 

But - I believe that Jesus will still be high priest for "the rest of the dead", who will be resurrected at the 8th millennium.  I believe these will be people who lived and died in ignorance.  It is only JUST that these people also, be given a chance to know God, to repent, and to enter the kingdom of God. 

The dead of all classes that will go to heaven are taken there at the same time - 1Thess 4. At the 2nd coming. "This is the first resurrection" Rev 20:4-5.

Your scenario has a group of dead people - destined for heaven but not taken at the 2nd coming 1Thess 4 event. What would be the point of that?