Understanding the Gospel Through the Book of Life

[Samie]

No.  First of all, the Scriptures do not teach that sins were forgiven on the cross.

How about this?

^NAS Colossians 2:13-14   ¹³ And when you were ^adead ¹in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He ^bmade you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,  ¹⁴ having canceled out ^athe certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us and which was hostile to us; and ^bHe has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

I won’t be surprised if, just like before, you will respond that the verse applies only to those to whom you want it applied. And that is, sorry to say this, because pnatt’s CONTEXT is important to be taken into consideration.

If that were the case, then Abraham could not have been justified by faith, which would contradict all of Paul.

Not contradict Paul, but contradict you, because the apostle says ALL were justified FREELY. I guess ALL includes everyone, not just the believers like Abraham:

^NKJ Romans 3:23-24   ²³ for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,  ²⁴ being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

^NAS Romans 5:18   ¹⁸ So then as through ^aone transgression ¹there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one ^bact of righteousness ²there resulted ^cjustification of life to all men.

[Samie]

Also, regarding God's remembering sin, . . .

I suggest, "God's remembering sin NO MORE", as it appears in Scriptures.

. . . "remembering" should not be thought of in the sense of memory, but of regarding it.  The point is that once we are forgiven, God regards it no more.

And according to Scriptures, we were all forgiven on the cross, as noted in my previous post.

And the point in the first place didn't have to go with God, but with the one who committed sin.  The point is, the person who sinned has estranged himself from God, . . .

And the person is back to square one, separated from God again, which is not true, because NONE can separate us from the love of God, according to Scriptures (Rom 8:38, 39). Believing your proposition, one is in an off-on condition: commit sin, separated from God; repent and forgiven, attached to Him again. Sin again, separated from God again; repent and forgiven again, attached to God again.  And this cycles all through out his lifetime.

[pnattmbtc]

How about this?

^NAS Colossians 2:13-14   ¹³ And when you were ^adead ¹in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He ^bmade you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,  ¹⁴ having canceled out ^athe certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us and which was hostile to us; and ^bHe has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

I won’t be surprised if, just like before, you will respond that the verse applies only to those to whom you want it applied. And that is, sorry to say this, because pnatt’s CONTEXT is important to be taken into consideration.

Not contradict Paul, but contradict you, because the apostle says ALL were justified FREELY. I guess ALL includes everyone, not just the believers like Abraham:

^NKJ Romans 3:23-24   ²³ for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,  ²⁴ being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

^NAS Romans 5:18   ¹⁸ So then as through ^aone transgression ¹there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one ^bact of righteousness ²there resulted ^cjustification of life to all men.

You are mistaking the means for the timing.  The means for our being forgiven is the cross, but the timing is when we believe.  Consider the publican.  The publican asked for forgiveness, and walked away justified.  What was means?  Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but by Him.  He is the means.  But when is the timing?  When the publican asked for mercy.

I don't understand why you think it would make sense to forgive someone at some other time than when they exist.

From Romans 4, we see justification happens when one is forgiven, as well as in the story of the publican.   When is one justified?  When one believes.  For example:

For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.(Romans 10:10)

So, to conclude, justification and forgiveness happen at the same time, which is one believes, as Romans 10:10, the publican, Romans 4, and many other texts explain.

How do you think justification by faith works?  Please answer this question.

[pnattmbtc]

Me:Also, regarding God's remembering sin, . . .(<-this part cut out by Samie)

Samie:I suggest, "God's remembering sin NO MORE", as it appears in Scriptures.

???  I explained what this means according to the Scriptures.  You deleted my explanation of what the Scriptures say.  Why did you do this?

     5 hours ago, pnattmbtc said:
. . . "remembering" should not be thought of in the sense of memory, but of regarding it.  The point is that once we are forgiven, God regards it no more.

Samie: And according to Scriptures, we were all forgiven on the cross, as noted in my previous post.

Again, your idea of what Scripture is saying would be impossible, for the reason I pointed out.  If you are going to engate in a discussion, please respond to the points the other person is making; don't just repeat what you said before as if the other person didn't respond.

To repeat my point, if what you are asserting were true, how could Abraham have been righteous?  Please answer this question!  What Paul argues is that Abraham was justified by faith; that's how he became righteous.  What is your thought?  The fact that Abraham was justified during his lifetime is proof that his sins were forgiven during his lifetime.  David also was forgiven of his sin, which Paul explicitly states in Romans 4.

5 hours ago, pnattmbtc said:
And the point in the first place didn't have to go with God, but with the one who committed sin.  The point is, the person who sinned has estranged himself from God, . . .

And the person is back to square one, separated from God again, which is not true, because NONE can separate us from the love of God, according to Scriptures (Rom 8:38, 39). Believing your proposition, one is in an off-on condition: commit sin, separated from God; repent and forgiven, attached to Him again. Sin again, separated from God again; repent and forgiven again, attached to God again.  And this cycles all through out his lifetime.

You've mispresented what I said, but I'll leave that aside for now.  It seems that you are saying that noone can be separated from God?  How do you understand the story of the prodgical son?  Please answer this question.

There are two questions in particular I would like you to answer.
1.How do you understand that justification by faith works (Please consider especially Romans 10:10 in your answer).
2.How do you understand the story of the prodigal son? (especially in regards to the concepts of separation from the father and being restored).

[Samie]

 

You are mistaking the means for the timing.  The means for our being forgiven is the cross, but the timing is when we believe.  Consider the publican.  The publican asked for forgiveness, and walked away justified.  What was means?  Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but by Him.  He is the means.  But when is the timing?  When the publican asked for mercy.

That's according to you because it appears you believe more on what you think the Bible should have said instead of what it is actually saying. When it says God said has forgiven all our sins through Christ on the cross, you want it timed differently.  Why exclude the sins of the publican from being forgiven on the cross? Do you think that had Christ not died the forgiveness you think was accorded the publican and everybody else under the Old Covenant, still benefited them? You would say Yes, as per your position, but Scriptures tell us NO.

[Samie]

I don't understand why you think it would make sense to forgive someone at some other time than when they exist.

Forgive sins at the time they exist? Where did you get this idea. It is nowhere in Scriptures, brother.  It even contradicts your own position, because according to you, unless one repents and asks forgiveness, he cannot be forgiven. So if a person commits sin now and asks forgiveness a month later, then according to your position, he is forgiven by then. Now you want forgiveness to occur right at the time when sin exists.  You are confused, aren't you?

To end your confusion, just simply believe Scriptures when it says that God through Christ has forgiven us all our sins on the cross.

[Samie]

 

From Romans 4, we see justification happens when one is forgiven, as well as in the story of the publican.   When is one justified?  When one believes.  For example:

So, to conclude, justification and forgiveness happen at the same time, which is one believes, as Romans 10:10, the publican, Romans 4, and many other texts explain.

That's how you want those texts to have said. Unfortunately for you, they don't. Scriptures say we were justified FREELY. You want justification to happen after you have put in your share of the deal, and that makes justification no longer free.

^NKJ Romans 3:23-24   ²³ for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,  ²⁴ being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

^NAS Romans 5:18   ¹⁸ So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

How do you think justification by faith works?  Please answer this question.

I have just provided the Scriptures above that answered your question. You can believe them or stick to your position.

[Samie]

Pnatt:Also, regarding God's remembering sin, . . .(<-this part cut out by Samie)

Samie:I suggest, "God's remembering sin NO MORE", as it appears in Scriptures.

???  I explained what this means according to the Scriptures.  You deleted my explanation of what the Scriptures say.  Why did you do this?

It's you who cut short what Scriptures say, and I corrected it by including the part you cut out. The part you said I cut out from your tailor-style quoting of Scriptures, is right there in the next quote, in exactly the same sequential order as you posted it; in fact, you knew it's there because you even quoted and responded to it. I even provided ellipses after the first and next quotes to guide the reader the ommitted portion in the first quote was restored in the next quote. So why tell the world I cut it out when that part is just there in that same post?

[Samie]

Again, your idea of what Scripture is saying would be impossible, for the reason I pointed out.  If you are going to engate in a discussion, please respond to the points the other person is making; don't just repeat what you said before as if the other person didn't respond.

To repeat my point, if what you are asserting were true, how could Abraham have been righteous?  Please answer this question!  What Paul argues is that Abraham was justified by faith; that's how he became righteous.  What is your thought?  The fact that Abraham was justified during his lifetime is proof that his sins were forgiven during his lifetime.  David also was forgiven of his sin, which Paul explicitly states in Romans 4.

My idea of what Scripture is saying, or your idea that's impossible? It's not my idea: It is written in Scriptures. I simply posted it: Here again:

^NAS Colossians 2:13-14   ¹³ And when you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,  ¹⁴ having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us and which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

"All our transgressions" obviously includes the sins of all people, including Abraham.  I am amazed why you can't believe the simple words of Scriptures.  Again, although hypothetical, had Christ not died then every one, including Abraham, is doomed, without hope of life eternal.

[8thdaypriest]

 

There are two questions in particular I would like you to answer.

1.How do you understand that justification by faith works (Please consider especially Romans 10:10 in your answer).
2.How do you understand the story of the prodigal son? (especially in regards to the concepts of separation from the father and being restored).

I love the story of the prodigal son.  I think it reveals the heart of God our Father.  The rebellious son LEFT home, BECAUSE he did not want to follow the rules in the Father's House.  He thought that he could do things in his own way.  His heart stayed in that rebellious condition UNTIL he realized that he could NOT do things his own way.  I'm sure he tried, and tried, and tried to figure out a way to survive without going home.

As he finally approached his father, he assumed his father was still angry with him.  He fell at his feet, asking only to be a servant.  THAT is WHEN he found out, that His Father had already forgiven him, long ago.  His father just wanted him to come home. 

For many years, upon hearing this story, I only thought, "Well, he learned his lesson."  I failed to see the heart of God.  This story is ABOUT the heart of God. 

Yes - the Father HAS already forgiven us.  But that does NOT mean He has already "saved" us.  He can't do that, UNTIL we return to Him, with our hearts crush by our own failures.

 

 

[8thdaypriest]

My idea of what Scripture is saying, or your idea that's impossible? It's not my idea: It is written in Scriptures. I simply posted it: Here again:

^NAS Colossians 2:13-14   ¹³ And when you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,  ¹⁴ having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us and which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

"All our transgressions" obviously includes the sins of all people, including Abraham.  I am amazed why you can't believe the simple words of Scriptures.  Again, although hypothetical, had Christ not died then every one, including Abraham, is doomed, without hope of life eternal.

Did the Father forgive all mankind, BEFORE Christ died, OR at the moment Christ died? 

If the Father forgave all sins BEFORE Christ died, then Christ's death was a message to mankind - that He HAD forgiven them. 

If the Father had to wait UNTIL His Son died - then every human was not forgiven from eternity.  (They could have been CONDITIONALLY FORGIVEN. )

QUESTION:

Is one "saved" WHEN one is "forgiven" ? 

Does forgiveness = salvation? 

The prodigal son was NOT saved from his pigpen WHEN his father forgave him.   His father had forgiven him, LONG BEFORE he ended up in that pigpen.  So long as the prodigal son was ignorant of his father's forgiveness,  that forgiveness wasn't doing the son any good at all. 

 

[Samie]

Did the Father forgive all mankind, BEFORE Christ died, OR at the moment Christ died? 

If the Father forgave all sins BEFORE Christ died, then Christ's death was a message to mankind - that He HAD forgiven them. 

If the Father had to wait UNTIL His Son died - then every human was not forgiven from eternity.  (They could have been CONDITIONALLY FORGIVEN. )

Forgiveness of all sins - past, present, future - is contingent upon the death of the Lamb of God which takes away the SIN of the world.

QUESTION:

Is one "saved" WHEN one is "forgiven" ? 

Does forgiveness = salvation? 

The prodigal son was NOT saved from his pigpen WHEN his father forgave him.   His father had forgiven him, LONG BEFORE he ended up in that pigpen.  So long as the prodigal son was ignorant of his father's forgiveness,  that forgiveness wasn't doing the son any good at all.

For me, forgiveness occurred in the Past Tense of Salvation. God SAVED (past tense) us through Christ. God is still saving (present tense) us by not deleting our names from the Book of Life while alive, each time we commit sin.  But the act of sinning reminds the person that he has not overcome the evil of sinning yet. If he dies a non-overcomer, his name will be deleted.  The prodigal son's decision to return to his Father is our decision to overcome evil with good by living sanctified and righteous lives.  The Father's welcoming of the prodigal tells us He has not expelled his son from membership in his family. So with us. Our Father in heaven has not yet deleted us from His Book despite our pigpen lives. Throughout our lifetime, He is waiting for us to become overcomers.

[8thdaypriest]

Forgiveness of all sins - past, present, future - is contingent upon the death of the Lamb of God which takes away the SIN of the world.

For me, forgiveness occurred in the Past Tense of Salvation. God SAVED (past tense) us through Christ. God is still saving (present tense) us by not deleting our names from the Book of Life while alive, each time we commit sin.  But the act of sinning reminds the person that he has not overcome the evil of sinning yet. If he dies a non-overcomer, his name will be deleted.  The prodigal son's decision to return to his Father is our decision to overcome evil with good by living sanctified and righteous lives.  The Father's welcoming of the prodigal tells us He has not expelled his son from membership in his family. So with us. Our Father in heaven has not yet deleted us from His Book despite our pigpen lives. Throughout our lifetime, He is waiting for us to become overcomers.

You did NOT answer my question Samie. 

WHEN did God our Father, forgive all our sins?

[pnattmbtc]

You are mistaking the means for the timing.  The means for our being forgiven is the cross, but the timing is when we believe.  Consider the publican.  The publican asked for forgiveness, and walked away justified.  What was means?  Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but by Him.  He is the means.  But when is the timing?  When the publican asked for mercy.

Samie:That's according to you because it appears you believe more on what you think the Bible should have said instead of what it is actually saying. When it says God said has forgiven all our sins through Christ on the cross, you want it timed differently.  Why exclude the sins of the publican from being forgiven on the cross? Do you think that had Christ not died the forgiveness you think was accorded the publican and everybody else under the Old Covenant, still benefited them? You would say Yes, as per your position, but Scriptures tell us NO.

No, Samie.  I'm not basing what I'm saying on what I think the Bible should be saying, but on what it actually says.  Here's the story of the publican:

11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

 So this explains that the publican asked for mercy, received mercy, and was justified, which is what I was saying.

[pnattmbtc]

Samie: Forgive sins at the time they exist? Where did you get this idea. It is nowhere in Scriptures, brother.  It even contradicts your own position, because according to you, unless one repents and asks forgiveness, he cannot be forgiven.

Why are saying according to me?  It's not according to me, but according to John.

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us oursins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. (1 John 1:9)
 

[pnattmbtc]

From Romans 4, we see justification happens when one is forgiven, as well as in the story of the publican.   When is one justified?  When one believes.  For example:

So, to conclude, justification and forgiveness happen at the same time, which is one believes, as Romans 10:10, the publican, Romans 4, and many other texts explain.

Samie:That's how you want those texts to have said. 

Samie, you not only didn't address the Scripture which contradicts your position, but you cut it out! (with no indication that this is what you did, which is not good; you should include "..." when you do this).  But that doesn't make it go away from Scripture!  It's still in Romans 10:10

For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. (Romans 10:10)

There it is, plain as day!  We believe with our heart and are justified; this is justification by faith. 

[pnattmbtc]

Forgiveness of all sins - past, present, future - is contingent upon the death of the Lamb of God which takes away the SIN of the world.

For me, forgiveness occurred in the Past Tense of Salvation. God SAVED (past tense) us through Christ. God is still saving (present tense) us by not deleting our names from the Book of Life while alive, each time we commit sin.  But the act of sinning reminds the person that he has not overcome the evil of sinning yet. If he dies a non-overcomer, his name will be deleted.  The prodigal son's decision to return to his Father is our decision to overcome evil with good by living sanctified and righteous lives.  The Father's welcoming of the prodigal tells us He has not expelled his son from membership in his family. So with us. Our Father in heaven has not yet deleted us from His Book despite our pigpen lives. Throughout our lifetime, He is waiting for us to become overcomers.

Isn't the return of the prodigal son more in harmony with this appeal?

Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me. Rev. 3:20

The story of the prodigal son is telling us about a relationship which was restored.

Christ is the focal point of Scripture.  We need Christ in our lives.

[pnattmbtc]

  On 9/25/2015, 1:57:43, pnattmbtc said:

Again, your idea of what Scripture is saying would be impossible, for the reason I pointed out.  If you are going to engate in a discussion, please respond to the points the other person is making; don't just repeat what you said before as if the other person didn't respond.

To repeat my point, if what you are asserting were true, how could Abraham have been righteous?  Please answer this question!  What Paul argues is that Abraham was justified by faith; that's how he became righteous.  What is your thought?  The fact that Abraham was justified during his lifetime is proof that his sins were forgiven during his lifetime.  David also was forgiven of his sin, which Paul explicitly states in Romans 4.

Samie:My idea of what Scripture is saying, or your idea that's impossible? It's not my idea: It is written in Scriptures. I simply posted it: Here again:

NAS Colossians 2:13-14   13 And when you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,  14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us andwhich was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

"All our transgressions" obviously includes the sins of all people, including Abraham.  I am amazed why you can't believe the simple words of Scriptures.  Again, although hypothetical, had Christ not died then every one, including Abraham, is doomed, without hope of life eternal.

Samie, you're not considering positions contrary to what you believe.  How can you ever grow if you refuse to do this?

If you believe A, and someone presents B to you, and you just ignore B, and continue believing A, what good does that do?  What is needed is an explanation which explains *both* A and B.  You can't just ignore B and keep repeating A over and over again.  B is as much a part of Scripture as A.  You need to explain B, just as I would need to explain A.

So please respond to my point. How could Abraham have been righteous? What Paul argues is that Abraham was justified by faith; that's how he became righteous.  What is your thought?  The fact that Abraham was justified during his lifetime is proof that his sins were forgiven during his lifetime.  David also was forgiven of his sin, which Paul explicitly states in Romans 4.

Edited September 27, 2015 by pnattmbtc

[Samie]

Why are saying according to me?  It's not according to me, but according to John.

It's according to you. Where in Scriptures does it say that sins are forgiven at the time they exist?  Sins exist at the time they are committed, and you are saying they are forgiven right then and there.

[Samie]

Samie, you not only didn't address the Scripture which contradicts your position, but you cut it out! (with no indication that this is what you did, which is not good; you should include "..." when you do this).  But that doesn't make it go away from Scripture!  It's still in Romans 10:10

There it is, plain as day!  We believe with our heart and are justified; this is justification by faith. 

Rom 10:10 speaks about believing unto righteousness, here:

^NKJ Romans 10:10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness . . .

[Samie]

Samie, you're not considering positions contrary to what you believe.  How can you ever grow if you refuse to do this?

Have you tried your own medicine? I have replied each time you ask and that is not still considering contrary positions?

If you believe A, and someone presents B to you, and you just ignore B, and continue believing A, what good does that do?  What is needed is an explanation which explains *both* A and B.  You can't just ignore B and keep repeating A over and over again.  B is as much a part of Scripture as A.  You need to explain B, just as I would need to explain A.

 Why would I not believe "A" when it is clear to me it is what Scriptures say, while your "B" is what you want Scriptures to say?  "A" EMPHATICALLY says all sins were forgiven on the cross (Col 2:13, 14), while you take "B" (verses about Abraham and the publican with NOTHING on forgiveness being spoken of in those verses) and conclude that because of those verses, sins are forgiven at the time they exist.

The verses I presented speak for themselves and need no explanation from me to be understandable for anybody.  The verses you offered about forgiveness as occurring at the time sins exist, do not talk about forgiveness but you applied them to forgiveness. It is not me who must explain but you.

So please respond to my point. How could Abraham have been righteous? What Paul argues is that Abraham was justified by faith; that's how he became righteous.  What is your thought?

My thought on JUSTIFICATION has always been what I believe Scriptures say, that we were justified FREELY.  And I guess FREELY means nothing from our part.  Here again are some of those verses:

^NKJ Romans 3:23-24   ²³ for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,  ²⁴ being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

^NAS Romans 5:18   ¹⁸ So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

There is no need of explaining the above verses. They are crystal clear. All men - including Abraham, David and the publican - have sinned and were all justified freely THROUGH the merits of Christ.

 

[pnattmbtc]

It's according to you. Where in Scriptures does it say that sins are forgiven at the time they exist?  Sins exist at the time they are committed, and you are saying they are forgiven right then and there.

Why are saying according to me?  It's not according to me, but according to John.

It's according to you. Where in Scriptures does it say that sins are forgiven at the time they exist? 

Please quit cutting out the salient part of the posts!  When you quote the post, *leave in* the part of the post that is making the point; please.  In this case, it was 1 John 1:9, which I now need to fetch and quote again:

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us oursins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Ok, what does John say?  He says:

1. If we confess our sins 

then

2.God will forgive our sins.

I don't know what your question is.  My point is that according to John (not me), if we confess our sins, then God will forgive them.

[pnattmbtc]

Samie, you not only didn't address the Scripture which contradicts your position, but you cut it out! (with no indication that this is what you did, which is not good; you should include "..." when you do this).  But that doesn't make it go away from Scripture!  It's still in Romans 10:10

There it is, plain as day!  We believe with our heart and are justified; this is justification by faith. 

Rom 10:10 speaks about believing unto righteousness, here:

NKJ Romans 10:10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness . . .

I don't know what your point is.  My point is that it is we who believe here, not Christ, and the result of our believing with the heart is that we are justified by so doing.  This is justification by faith.

For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. (Romans 10:10)

[pnattmbtc]

Samie, you're not considering positions contrary to what you believe.  How can you ever grow if you refuse to do this?

Samie: Have you tried your own medicine? I have replied each time you ask and that is not still considering contrary positions?

Yes, there are many things I can cite where I have changed my mind in these forums, and now hold positions different than what I used to hold, having been persuaded by the evidence.  Can you do this?  Can you list one area where you have changed you mind? 

[pnattmbtc]

Me: If you believe A, and someone presents B to you, and you just ignore B, and continue believing A, what good does that do?  What is needed is an explanation which explains *both* A and B.  You can't just ignore B and keep repeating A over and over again.  B is as much a part of Scripture as A.  You need to explain B, just as I would need to explain A.
 
Samie: Why would I not believe "A" when it is clear to me it is what Scriptures say, while your "B" is what you want Scriptures to say?  "A" EMPHATICALLY says all sins were forgiven on the cross (Col 2:13, 14), while you take "B" (verses about Abraham and the publican with NOTHING on forgiveness being spoken of in those verses) and conclude that because of those verses, sins are forgiven at the time they exist.

The Scriptures do not say that all sins were forgiven on the cross.  This is an interpretation which you have given to these verses, which is fine, we're supposed to interpret verses.  But when evidence is presented which challenges this, we should address that evidence, not simply repeat the position we already had and ignore the other evidence.

Regarding Colossians 2:13,14, I don't know anyone who reads these verses the way you do.  If it were so clear, there would be others besides you who see it this way.  This is not an argument, of itself, that your view is wrong (it's possible, although not likely, that you alone are seeing something correctly), but it is an argument that your view is not clearly or easily seen.

Samie: The verses I presented speak for themselves and need no explanation from me to be understandable for anybody.  

This is preposterous!  Colossians 2:13,14 is one of the most controverted texts in all of Scripture.  No two scholars can even agree on what this text means.

Samie: The verses you offered about forgiveness as occurring at the time sins exist, do not talk about forgiveness but you applied them to forgiveness. It is not me who must explain but you.

They don't talk about forgiveness?  Here's the text from Romans:

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

7 Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

How can you possibly see this text and say that it doesn't talk about forgiveness?

23 hours ago, pnattmbtc said:
So please respond to my point. How could Abraham have been righteous? What Paul argues is that Abraham was justified by faith; that's how he became righteous.  What is your thought?
Samie: My thought on JUSTIFICATION has always been what I believe Scriptures say, that we were justified FREELY.  And I guess FREELY means nothing from our part.  Here again are some of those verses:

NKJ Romans 3:23-24   23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,  24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

NAS Romans 5:18   18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

There is no need of explaining the above verses. They are crystal clear. All men - including Abraham, David and the publican - have sinned and were all justified freely THROUGH the merits of Christ.

You didn't address my question.  How could Abraham have been righteous if his sins weren't forgiven until 2,000 years after he lived?  If you look at Romans 4, you will see that the forgiveness of sins is included in justification by faith (see the verses above), so if Abraham was justified by faith, then he was forgiven, and this happened many centuries before the cross, so his sins had to have been forgiven before the cross.