Understanding the Gospel Through the Book of Life

[Samie]

The Scriptures do not say that all sins were forgiven on the cross.  This is an interpretation which you have given to these verses, which is fine, we're supposed to interpret verses.  But when evidence is presented which challenges this, we should address that evidence, not simply repeat the position we already had and ignore the other evidence.

Regarding Colossians 2:13,14, I don't know anyone who reads these verses the way you do.  If it were so clear, there would be others besides you who see it this way.  This is not an argument, of itself, that your view is wrong (it's possible, although not likely, that you alone are seeing something correctly), but it is an argument that your view is not clearly or easily seen.

This is preposterous!  Colossians 2:13,14 is one of the most controverted texts in all of Scripture.  No two scholars can even agree on what this text means.

That is because people had been used to the thinking that when Christ died salvation from sin was merely offered , and only those who accept Him can be saved from sin.  What I am presenting from Scriptures, is to them, a total paradigm shift. And I understand their resistance to change of beliefs. 

This is the reason why I started this thread for people to better understand the Gospel our Lord wanted preached before He returns. I believe the brand of gospel that had been preached since the time of Luther till now falls short of the Gospel of Christ - the Gospel that Paul preached. For me, this explains why He has not yet returned.

^NKJ Matthew 24:14 "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.

 

[pnattmbtc]

 

That is because people had been used to the thinking that when Christ died salvation from sin was merely offered , and only those who accept Him can be saved from sin.  What I am presenting from Scriptures, is to them, a total paradigm shift. And I understand their resistance to change of beliefs. 

This is the reason why I started this thread for people to better understand the Gospel our Lord wanted preached before He returns. I believe the brand of gospel that had been preached since the time of Luther till now falls short of the Gospel of Christ - the Gospel that Paul preached. For me, this explains why He has not yet returned.

NKJ Matthew 24:14 "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come

 

This has nothing to do with why scholars disagree regarding Col. 2:13, 14, especially vs. 14.  Especially the "handwriting of ordinances" is highly debated.

 

The overall concept of salvation being not merely offered by given was taught first by Waggoner and Jones (at least, they are the first I'm aware of, and I studied this quite a bit; I'd be very interested if someone was aware of someone else who taught this.)  Then Wieland, and then Sequeira.  These are the main people I'm aware of in SDA theology who have taught the concept that salvation was not merely offered.  However, all of these considered justification by faith to be an individual matter and not a corporate matter.  You're the first person I've come across in any context that has had difficulty seeing that justification by faith is an individual matter.  Somehow you have allowed the corporate concept to completely eclipse the individual, which is both a bit bizarre and very interesting.  

 

I mean, there are so many verses which over and again speak of justification by faith as consisting of our individually believing in Christ as Abraham did, that it's difficult to conceive as to how this could be missed.  The entire book of Galatians is about this them, and most of Romans.

 

It's true that there is a corporate aspect involved, and that the corporate aspect is the foundation of the individual aspect, but it's not the case that there is no individual aspect.  I've yet to hear any explanation from you as to what you think Paul's argument is in regards to Abraham.

 

Paul argues that justification is not by works, but by faith, that Abraham was justified by faith in Christ, and if anyone else want to be justified, they need to believe in Christ as Abraham did.  That's a one sentence summary of Galatians.

 

What do you think Galatians is saying?

[Samie]

This has nothing to do with why scholars disagree regarding Col. 2:13, 14, especially vs. 14.  Especially the "handwriting of ordinances" is highly debated.

The overall concept of salvation being not merely offered by given was taught first by Waggoner and Jones (at least, they are the first I'm aware of, and I studied this quite a bit; I'd be very interested if someone was aware of someone else who taught this.)  Then Wieland, and then Sequeira.  These are the main people I'm aware of in SDA theology who have taught the concept that salvation was not merely offered.  However, all of these considered justification by faith to be an individual matter and not a corporate matter.  You're the first person I've come across in any context that has had difficulty seeing that justification by faith is an individual matter.  Somehow you have allowed the corporate concept to completely eclipse the individual, which is both a bit bizarre and very interesting.  

I mean, there are so many verses which over and again speak of justification by faith as consisting of our individually believing in Christ as Abraham did, that it's difficult to conceive as to how this could be missed.  The entire book of Galatians is about this them, and most of Romans.

It's true that there is a corporate aspect involved, and that the corporate aspect is the foundation of the individual aspect, but it's not the case that there is no individual aspect.  I've yet to hear any explanation from you as to what you think Paul's argument is in regards to Abraham.

Paul argues that justification is not by works, but by faith, that Abraham was justified by faith in Christ, and if anyone else want to be justified, they need to believe in Christ as Abraham did.  That's a one sentence summary of Galatians.

What do you think Galatians is saying?

The individual aspect, as I have time and again pointed out, is mainly concerned with overcoming evil with good.  We must not forget that Justification is not our work.  We don't justify ourselves, it's God through Christ Who does it for us. First, corporately, on the cross.  And then individually, in one's lifetime, because Jesus was raised for our justification (Rom 4:25).  Each time one commits sin, he is justified - the sin committed is not counted against him (2 Cor 5:18,19), that sin having been forgiven on the cross (Col 2:13). In fact, God remembers that sin no more (Heb 10:17). And this justification is by faith, the faith of the Son of God, as Paul in Galatians said:

^KJV Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

We are counted righteous because of Christ's righteousness. Abraham's righteousness as Paul explained, I believe, rests upon the righteousness of Christ, for Paul himself quoted Scriptures "there is none righteous, no, not one", placing all of us, including Abraham, in equal footing before God.  And then Paul concludes that our righteousness is from God:

^KJV Romans 3:22-24   ²² Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:  ²³ For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;  ²⁴ Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Sadly, newer translations, changed "of" to "in" transforming "faith of Jesus" to "faith in Jesus", to perhaps bolster what the translators themselves and the organizations that sponsored them, believed.

[pnattmbtc]

The individual aspect, as I have time and again pointed out, is mainly concerned with overcoming evil with good.

You're basing this on one verse in revelation?  The individual aspect of justification by faith is mainly concerned with being justified by faith.  Paul goes on about this for whole chapters.

We must not forget that Justification is not our work.  

It's the result of believing in Christ.  For example:

For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. (Romans 10:10)

Paul explains that justification is not by works, but by faith, which means to believe in Christ with your heart, as Paul explains here.  Or, to use John's illustration, Christ knocks on the door of our heart, and if we respond to His knocking, He enters in to sup with us.  This is justification by faith.

We don't justify ourselves, it's God through Christ Who does it for us. First, corporately, on the cross.  And then individually, in one's lifetime, because Jesus was raised for our justification (Rom 4:25).

The life of Christ (which includes His life, death and resurrection) is the basis for our justification, but when we are justified by faith is when be believe in our heart, as per Romans 10:10.  If we confess our sins, God is faitlful and just to forgive us our sins (forgivness) and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (justification).  This is 1 John 1:9.

Each time one commits sin, he is justified - the sin committed is not counted against him (2 Cor 5:18,19), that sin having been forgiven on the cross (Col 2:13). 

He *may* be justified, if he repents and confesses his sin, as 1 John 1:9 points out.

In fact, God remembers that sin no more (Heb 10:17). And this justification is by faith, the faith of the Son of God, as Paul in Galatians said:

KJV Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

How does your idea of what this means tie in with the other verses which have been cited, which deal with justification by faith?  Specifically Romans 10:10, and 1 John 1:9.  Also Romans 4.

We are counted righteous because of Christ's righteousness. Abraham's righteousness as Paul explained, I believe, rests upon the righteousness of Christ, for Paul himself quoted Scriptures "there is none righteous, no, not one", placing all of us, including Abraham, in equal footing before God.  And then Paul concludes that our righteousness is from God:

KJV Romans 3:22-24   22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:  23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;  24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Sadly, newer translations, changed "of" to "in" transforming "faith of Jesus" to "faith in Jesus", to perhaps bolster what the translators themselves and the organizations that sponsored them, believed.

I don't see anything about the individual aspect in anything you have written (by the way, I'm not disagreeing that there is a corporate aspect, nor with understanding "pistou Iesou" as "faith of Christ"; I'm simply pointing out that "justification by faith" involves an individual aspect). Paul speands a great deal of time talking about the individual aspect of justification by faith, and the very phrase means to by justified as a result of one's faith in Christ.  We are also sanctified by faith in Christ, as Acts 26:18 points out.  This is not "pistou Iesou" which may be translated either "faith in Christ" (objective genitive) or "faith of Christ" (subjective genitive) but "pistei te eis eme" which means "faith in Christ" only (cannot be translated "faith of Christ"; note Young's literal translation, which renders it "faith towards Christ" to make the greek totally clear).

I'm going to quote from Ellen White hear because she eloquently explains how I view what Paul is saying:

Jesus came to teach men of the Father, to correctly represent him before the fallen children of earth. Angels could not fully portray the character of God, but Christ, who was a living impersonation of God, could not fail to accomplish the work. The only way in which he could set and keep men right was to make himself visible and familiar
to their eyes....

Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose
of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.

(this is from an article called "God Made Manifest in Christ", easily found by searching in google, which I highly recommend reading, as perhaps the clearest explanation on the subject I've seen).

To be justified is to be "set right" and to be sanctified is to be "kept right".  This happens when we recognize the truth ("you shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free") and embrace it in our hearts ("with the heart you believe and are justified").

[Samie]

You're basing this on one verse in revelation?  The individual aspect of justification by faith is mainly concerned with being justified by faith.  Paul goes on about this for whole chapters.

Not upon one verse, but upon one Book, the Bible.

It's the result of believing in Christ.  For example:

Paul explains that justification is not by works, but by faith, which means to believe in Christ with your heart, as Paul explains here.  Or, to use John's illustration, Christ knocks on the door of our heart, and if we respond to His knocking, He enters in to sup with us.  This is justification by faith.

And Scriptures say that that faith is the faith of Jesus, as I have pointed out for soooooooo many times.

The life of Christ (which includes His life, death and resurrection) is the basis for our justification, but when we are justified by faith is when be believe in our heart, as per Romans 10:10.  If we confess our sins, God is faitlful and just to forgive us our sins (forgivness) and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (justification).  This is 1 John 1:9.

He *may* be justified, if he repents and confesses his sin, as 1 John 1:9 points out.

So it's you who appears to have woven your whole doctrine on justification in one verse: 1 John 1:9.

I don't see anything about the individual aspect in anything you have written (by the way, I'm not disagreeing that there is a corporate aspect, nor with understanding "pistou Iesou" as "faith of Christ"; I'm simply pointing out that "justification by faith" involves an individual aspect).

You could have, had you opened your eyes to see them in reading what I wrote. You could read that post again, and you can clearly see what you said you did not see.

Again, the individual aspect of justification lies in one's overcoming evil with good, and it is faith - the faith of the Son of God - that overcomes the world. Paul tackled this issue in Rom 2 about the Gentiles in whose hearts are where God's law is written:

Romans 2:13-16   ¹³ For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.  ¹⁴ For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:  ¹⁵ Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; ¹⁶ In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

So how are they justified by faith? In the same way Abraham was, because in Scriptures God said regarding Abraham:

^NKJ Genesis 26:5 "because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws." 

[pnattmbtc]

Me:You're basing this on one verse in revelation?  The individual aspect of justification by faith is mainly concerned with being justified by faith.  Paul goes on about this for whole chapters.

Samie: Not upon one verse, but upon one Book, the Bible.

This response is a bit disingenuous.  First of all, you left out the context of what we were discussing, which is overcoming evil with good.  I'm pretty sure you have specifcally in mind one verse, the one in Revelation, which speaks to names being blotted out of the book of life.  If you take away that one verse, then what other verse would you put in its place?

On the other hand, Paul devoted whole chapters and books to the importance of the individual believing in Christ, and, indeed, the entire Bible (here your comment would be appropriate) testifies of Christ.  Christ is the them of Scripture, not that if you don't overcome evil with good your name will be blotted out of the book of life.

     15 hours ago, pnattmbtc said:
It's the result of believing in Christ.  For example:

Paul explains that justification is not by works, but by faith, which means to believe in Christ with your heart, as Paul explains here.  Or, to use John's illustration, Christ knocks on the door of our heart, and if we respond to His knocking, He enters in to sup with us.  This is justification by faith.

Samie: And Scriptures say that that faith is the faith of Jesus, as I have pointed out for soooooooo many times.

No, this is confusing, or conflating, two different things.  The faith of Christ is one thing.  The faith of the believer is another thing.  Romans 10 is dealing with the faith of the believer.  Let's look:

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

One can see by looking at the context that this is dealing with the faith of the believer.  This couldn't be plainer.  You have not once explained that this text is actually talking about the faith of Jesus, let alone "so many times."  And you couldn't do so, because it clearly isn't.

So far, you simply haven't responded to it.  I've not seen a response either to this text, or to Galatians 3:2, to name two, which I've brought up quite a few times.

     15 hours ago, pnattmbtc said:
The life of Christ (which includes His life, death and resurrection) is the basis for our justification, but when we are justified by faith is when be believe in our heart, as per Romans 10:10.  If we confess our sins, God is faitlful and just to forgive us our sins (forgivness) and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness (justification).  This is 1 John 1:9.

He *may* be justified, if he repents and confesses his sin, as 1 John 1:9 points out.

Samie: So it's you who appears to have woven your whole doctrine on justification in one verse: 1 John 1:9.

This is hardly a response.  You've just ignored another text.  I'll add this to this list of ignored texts:
1.Galatians 3:2
2.Romans 10:10
3.1 John 1:9

As I've been pointing out, the theme of justification by faith, which involves the individual, is spoken of by Paul in entire chapters and books.  (Romans 1-8; all of Galatians, for example).  It would hardly be fair to characterize justification by faith as being based on one verse.

     15 hours ago, pnattmbtc said:
I don't see anything about the individual aspect in anything you have written (by the way, I'm not disagreeing that there is a corporate aspect, nor with understanding "pistou Iesou" as "faith of Christ"; I'm simply pointing out that "justification by faith" involves an individual aspect).

Samie: You could have, had you opened your eyes to see them in reading what I wrote. You could read that post again, and you can clearly see what you said you did not see.

Again, the individual aspect of justification lies in one's overcoming evil with good, and it is faith - the faith of the Son of God - that overcomes the world. Paul tackled this issue in Rom 2 about the Gentiles in whose hearts are where God's law is written:

Romans 2:13-16   13 For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.  14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:  15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another; 16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

So how are they justified by faith? In the same way Abraham was, because in Scriptures God said regarding Abraham:

NKJ Genesis 26:5 "because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws." 

To be fair, I don't think the fault here lies with me.  I don't think you are communicating effectively.  As evidence, I'll point out that I'm not aware of anyone on the entire site who could accurately represent your thought.  If you can think of someone, please let me know.  Now if nobody understands what you are saying, then the fault may lie with you as the communicator, rather than the listener.

Here you have stated that we are justified by faith in the same way that Abraham was, and then you cite a verse which talks about Abraham's obedience, whereas Paul was arguing that justification is by faith and not by works.  So you're not being clear here.  It appears you are making exactly the opposite argument that Paul is making, and I'm sure this isn't your intention.

You mention the faith of Jesus which overcomes the world, so I'm guessing your intent is to say that we overcome evil by means of the faith of Jesus.  Assuming I'm correct here, that this is what you mean, please flesh out how this works.  To be more specific, what is it that believers do in order to overcome evil with good, and how does the faith of Jesus enter into this?

Edited September 30, 2015 by pnattmbtc

[Samie]

This response is a bit disingenuous.  First of all, you left out the context of what we were discussing, which is overcoming evil with good.  I'm pretty sure you have specifcally in mind one verse, the one in Revelation, which speaks to names being blotted out of the book of life.  If you take away that one verse, then what other verse would you put in its place?

On the other hand, Paul devoted whole chapters and books to the importance of the individual believing in Christ, and, indeed, the entire Bible (here your comment would be appropriate) testifies of Christ.  Christ is the them of Scripture, not that if you don't overcome evil with good your name will be blotted out of the book of life.

Whose statement is Rev 3:5? Yes, you answered right, it's Christ's. Whose statement is Rev 21:27?  Christ's too. And Rev 20:15? His likewise. Do you believe Christ's statements as truth? I am hearing a "Yes" from you. Now, will Paul, in any of the voluminous chapters and epistles written, contradict Christ? I am hearing a "No" from you this time. Then Christ and Paul are on the same page in the issue of overcoming evil with good, as well as with all other issues.  And I am with them. And is my guess right that you are, too, brother? So stop complaining about the Book of Life. Your name is there. And mine, too. Let's just overcome evil with good so our names stay.

And I am NEVER against believing in Christ. In fact, I have for so long believed in Him, perhaps even before you did. What I am in disagreement, is to take my believing as the reason why God justified me. Paul says, God justified us ALL FREELY, believers included, through the merits of Christ. Not our merit because we believed. Here again:

^KJV Romans 3:22-24   ²² Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:  ²³ For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;  ²⁴Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus

[Samie]

No, this is confusing, or conflating, two different things.  The faith of Christ is one thing.  The faith of the believer is another thing.  Romans 10 is dealing with the faith of the believer.  Let's look:

One can see by looking at the context that this is dealing with the faith of the believer.  This couldn't be plainer.  You have not once explained that this text is actually talking about the faith of Jesus, let alone "so many times."  And you couldn't do so, because it clearly isn't.

Where did you get your faith, brother? Did I hear you say, God gave it? I received MY faith from God, too. How did I know? Because Scriptures tell me so in Rom 12:3. The faith I have, I believe, is the faith of the Son of God which the Father gave me, and to everyone else. The faith of the believers is the faith of the Son of God; the faith we have we did not invent by ourselves, did we? Why fault me for ascribing the credit to the Son of God that the faith I have is His faith? I have nothing, or better yet I am NOTHING, but HE is everything.  You want me to take the credit and thereby make myself into SOMETHING instead of NOTHING? Sorry, but I can't.

[pnattmbtc]

Whose statement is Rev 3:5? Yes, you answered right, it's Christ's. Whose statement is Rev 21:27?  Christ's too. And Rev 20:15? His likewise. Do you believe Christ's statements as truth? I am hearing a "Yes" from you. Now, will Paul, in any of the voluminous chapters and epistles written, contradict Christ? I am hearing a "No" from you this time. Then Christ and Paul are on the same page in the issue of overcoming evil with good, as well as with all other issues.  And I am with them. And is my guess right that you are, too, brother? So stop complaining about the Book of Life. Your name is there. And mine, too. Let's just overcome evil with good so our names stay.

And I am NEVER against believing in Christ. In fact, I have for so long believed in Him, perhaps even before you did. What I am in disagreement, is to take my believing as the reason why God justified me. Paul says, God justified us ALL FREELY, believers included, through the merits of Christ. Not our merit because we believed. Here again:

^KJV Romans 3:22-24   ²² Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:  ²³ For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;  ²⁴Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus

The thing is you are taking a molehill and making a mountain out of it, while ignoring the mountain.  The mountain in Christ.  The book of life is a molehill.

Regarding justification, it's not "why" but "how".  The why is because God is gracious, and loves us.  the how is that we are justified by faith, our faith in Christ, as Romans 10:10 points out:

For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified (Romans 10:10)

 

[Samie]

So far, you simply haven't responded to it.  I've not seen a response either to this text, or to Galatians 3:2, to name two, which I've brought up quite a few times.

This is hardly a response.  You've just ignored another text.  I'll add this to this list of ignored texts:
1.Galatians 3:2
2.Romans 10:10
3.1 John 1:9

As I've been pointing out, the theme of justification by faith, which involves the individual, is spoken of by Paul in entire chapters and books.  (Romans 1-8; all of Galatians, for example).  It would hardly be fair to characterize justification by faith as being based on one verse.

Here are the texts you say I ignored, texts you claim pertain to justification by faith of the believer instead of by the faith of Christ:

^KJV Galatians 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

 

^KJV Romans 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

 

^KJV 1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

It seems to me that there is no justification by faith of the individual in those 3 verses. And you wonder why I ignored them?

[pnattmbtc]

Where did you get your faith, brother? Did I hear you say, God gave it? I received MY faith from God, too. How did I know? Because Scriptures tell me so in Rom 12:3. The faith I have, I believe, is the faith of the Son of God which the Father gave me, and to everyone else. The faith of the believers is the faith of the Son of God; the faith we have we did not invent by ourselves, did we? Why fault me for ascribing the credit to the Son of God that the faith I have is His faith? I have nothing, or better yet I am NOTHING, but HE is everything.  You want me to take the credit and thereby make myself into SOMETHING instead of NOTHING? Sorry, but I can't.

It's not an issue of taking credit, but of understanding what is going on.  What do you think is going on?  How is it that one becomes a follower of Jesus Christ?  What does it mean to be a follower of Jesus Christ?  If you answer that what it means to be a follower of Jesus Christ is overcoming evil with good, how does that happen?

Edited September 30, 2015 by pnattmbtc

[Samie]

To be fair, I don't think the fault here lies with me.  I don't think you are communicating effectively.  As evidence, I'll point out that I'm not aware of anyone on the entire site who could accurately represent your thought.  If you can think of someone, please let me know.  Now if nobody understands what you are saying, then the fault may lie with you as the communicator, rather than the listener.

Here you have stated that we are justified by faith in the same way that Abraham was, and then you cite a verse which talks about Abraham's obedience, whereas Paul was arguing that justification is by faith and not by works.  So you're not being clear here.  It appears you are making exactly the opposite argument that Paul is making, and I'm sure this isn't your intention.

You are right, it's not my intention.  The justification came first before obedience. That's the case for all of us, including Abraham. Christ attached us all to His Body on the cross, and that includes Abraham, so that when He died (that death represented by the first death of an animal in Eden the day Adam sinned, no wonder Christ is called the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world), we were with Him at His death being His Body. That death cleansed us from all sin, that death destroyed the "enmity" (ATJones comes to mind), and we all were justified FREELY. When He resurrected, we, His Body, were resurrected together with Him, born again into a living hope of life eternal. Alive spiritually, being His Body, we can now, in His Strength, do the bidding of the Head.  But since we cannot please Him without faith, God gave us the faith of His Son.  Fully equipped and dressed for battle with the list of the good we are to do He wrote in our hearts and minds, we can now overcome evil with good.

But we sin from time to time. That's where individual justification comes in because Jesus was raised for our justification (Rom 4:25). The sin we commit, having been forgiven at the cross, is not imputed against us. God looks upon us as having not sinned through the merits of Christ. In fact, God remembers that sin NO MORE. And it is all through the faith of the Son who trusted His Father will save Him from death (Heb 5:7-9), the only means to destroy the enmity between man & God (Eph 2:16).  And He volunteered to go the distance to destroy the enmity. And God did raise Him from the grave. Nothing man does can revive that enmity again. Man is now one with God, through His Son Whose Body he is.

More next post, in this issue. Got to go for now...

[pnattmbtc]

More next post, in this issue. Got to go for now...

I'm glad you liked the A. T. Jones sermon.  He did 26 of them in 1895, so you may like to look at the others as well.  Actually the whole thing is like one long sermon, where he stopped at spots because he had to, because people needed to rest and eat and things like that.

I think you have a good handle on the corporate part, but let's talk about the individual part.  I'm going to quote from Waggoner here, who taught the same thing Jones did.  This is from "Christ And His Righteousness"

This being the case, the correctness of the statement that "the doers of the law shall be justified," is obvious. To justify means to make righteous, or to show one to be righteous.....

No matter how diligently nor how zealously a man works, nothing that he can do will meet the full measure of the law's demands. It is too high for him to
attain to; he cannot obtain righteousness by the law. "By the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified [made righteous] in His sight." What a deplorable condition! We must have the righteousness of the law or we cannot enter heaven, and yet the law has no righteousness for one of us.
It will not yield to our most persistent and energetic efforts the smallest portion of that holiness without which no man can see the Lord.
Who, then, can be saved? Can there, then, be such a thing as a righteous person?—Yes, for the Bible often speaks of them....

The question, then, is, How may the righteousness that is necessary in order that one may enter that city, be obtained? To answer this question is the great work of the Gospel. Let us first have an object lesson on justification, or the imparting of righteousness. The fact may help us to a better understanding of the theory. The example is given in Luke 18:9-14, in these words:—"And He spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. The
Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this
publican. I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes
unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather
than the other; for everyone that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted." This was given to show how we may not, and how we may, attain to righteousness....

But what is the result?—The man who trusted in his own righteousness had none, while the man who prayed, in heart-felt contrition, "God be merciful to me, a sinner," went down to his house a righteous man. Christ says that he went justified, that is, made righteous....

It is true that God will by no means clear the guilty; He could not do that and still be a just God. But He does something which is far better: He18 removes the guilt, so that the one formerly guilty does not need to be cleared,—he is justified, and counted as though he never had sinned. Let no one cavil over the expression, "putting on righteousness," as though such a thing were hypocrisy. Some, with a singular lack of appreciation of the value of the gift of righteousness, have said that they did not want righteousness that was "put on," but that they wanted only that righteousness which comes from the life, thus depreciating the righteousness of God, which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all that believe. We agree with their idea insofar as it is a protest against hypocrisy, a form of godliness without the power; but we would have the reader bear this thought in mind: It makes a vast deal of difference who puts the righteousness on. If we attempt to put it on ourselves, then we really get on nothing but a filthy garment, no matter how beautiful it may look to us; but when Christ clothes us with it, it is not to be despised nor rejected. Mark the expression in Isaiah: "He hath covered me with the robe of righteousness." The righteousness with which Christ covers us is righteousness that meets the approval of God; and if God is satisfied with
it, surely men ought not to try to find anything better. 

But we will carry the figure a step further, and that will relieve the matter of all difficulty. Zech. 3:1-5 furnishes the solution; it reads thus:—
"And he showed me Joshua the high priest standing before the Angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist Him. And the Lord said unto Satan, The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan; even the Lord that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee; is not this a brand plucked out of the fire? Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the Angel. And He answered and spake unto those that stood before Him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him He said, Behold I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment. And I said, Let them set a fair miter upon his head. So they set a fair miter upon his head, and clothed him with garments. And the Angel of the Lord
stood by."

Notice in the above account that the taking away of the filthy garments is the same as causing the iniquity to pass from the person. And so we [66] find that when Christ covers us with the robe of His own righteousness, He does not furnish a cloak for sin, but takes the sin away. And this
shows that the forgiveness of sins is something more than a mere form, something more than a mere entry in the books of record in heaven, to the effect that the sin has been canceled. The forgiveness of sins is a reality; it is something tangible, something that vitally affects the individual. It actually clears him from guilt; and if he is cleared from guilt, is justified, made righteous, he has certainly undergone a radical change. He is, indeed, another
person. 

[Samie]

I'm glad you liked the A. T. Jones sermon.  He did 26 of them in 1895, so you may like to look at the others as well.  Actually the whole thing is like one long sermon, where he stopped at spots because he had to, because people needed to rest and eat and things like that.

I think you have a good handle on the corporate part, but let's talk about the individual part.  I'm going to quote from Waggoner here, who taught the same thing Jones did.  This is from "Christ And His Righteousness"

As I have pointed out in my last post, the individual part comes in each time we commit sin. It is by faith, yes, the faith of Jesus that God gave to every man. By that faith, we simply believe that the sin we have just committed is NOT counted against us, all because of the merits of Christ. In fact, God remembers that sin NO MORE.  That sin could no longer act as ENMITY between Him and us. The enmity had been destroyed, abolished.  But that sin committed reminds us we have not overcome that evil with good yet.

The case of Joshua the High Priest referred to by Waggoner, reflects the way God deals with each of us.  What part did Joshua do that qualified him to become beneficiary of the robe of righteousness? Did I hear you say "none"? That's my answer, too, because Scriptures speak of none as well.  Waggoner paralleled the taking away of the filthy robes to God's forgiveness; and the putting on of the new robe to Joshua, to God's putting on to man Christ's righteousness. It is the filthy robes that served as the ENMITY between God and man. God did not merely remove the enmity, He destroyed it, how? Through the death of His Son Who consented to His Father's will trusting that God will save Him from death; because although that death destroyed the enmity, but He died that death separate Him from His Father. Why did I say He died separate from His Father?

Because Him Who knew no sin God MADE to be SIN for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him (2 Cor 5:21). And when He became SIN for us, he was the ENMITY that separates God and man! Explains why He had to sweat blood in Gethsemane. Imagine the extent the Father and the Son had to go to save humanity.  The Father had to destroy the enmity by the death of His Son Who likewise consented to die believing His Father will save Him from that death and with humanity be reunited with His Father again. What love; agape, indeed!

[pnattmbtc]

Hi Samie.

I was asking what the enmity is because that's the key to the whole thing.  

You'll notice that A. T. Jones spoke of the fall, and what happened to Adam and Eve and how the enmity developed.  He explained that she was tempted by the serpent that God was not to be trusted, that He did not have our best interests at heart, and when they opened their minds to believe that lie, then they were trapped, and could not escape, each one blaming the other, and indirectly blaming God.  This is the enmity that was taken away.

Jones spoke of two enmities.  He spoke of this enmity, and another enmity which God imposed, which is enmity between Satan and man.  Had God not done this, then man would have been lost.  This is the corporate work.  God imposed an enmity to that there are two enmities, which which is against God and the other against man, and then man chooses which of the two principlas, God or Satan, he wants to follow.  This is the individual work.

In order to take the enmity away (I'm talking about the first enmity here, the one that Eve fell into when she believed the serpents lies) it was necessary for Jesus to come and reveal the truth about the Father.  Jesus said, "You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free."  Free from what?  From from the enmity, as the Scripture says, we were "alienated from God" and "enemies in our own mind".  So what needs to be fixed?  Our mind, which is to say, our way of thinking.  Our minds need to be transformed so that we perceive God as trustworthy, on our side, as having our best interests at heart.  And this is why Jesus came, to show us the Father, that we might believe, and be reconciled.

[Samie]

Hi Samie.

I was asking what the enmity is because that's the key to the whole thing.  

You'll notice that A. T. Jones spoke of the fall, and what happened to Adam and Eve and how the enmity developed.  He explained that she was tempted by the serpent that God was not to be trusted, that He did not have our best interests at heart, and when they opened their minds to believe that lie, then they were trapped, and could not escape, each one blaming the other, and indirectly blaming God.  This is the enmity that was taken away.

Jones spoke of two enmities.  He spoke of this enmity, and another enmity which God imposed, which is enmity between Satan and man.  Had God not done this, then man would have been lost.  This is the corporate work.  God imposed an enmity to that there are two enmities, which which is against God and the other against man, and then man chooses which of the two principlas, God or Satan, he wants to follow.  This is the individual work.

In order to take the enmity away (I'm talking about the first enmity here, the one that Eve fell into when she believed the serpents lies) it was necessary for Jesus to come and reveal the truth about the Father.  Jesus said, "You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free."  Free from what?  From from the enmity, as the Scripture says, we were "alienated from God" and "enemies in our own mind".  So what needs to be fixed?  Our mind, which is to say, our way of thinking.  Our minds need to be transformed so that we perceive God as trustworthy, on our side, as having our best interests at heart.  And this is why Jesus came, to show us the Father, that we might believe, and be reconciled.

Believe and be reconciled? Why NOT just simply believe that we ALREADY were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, as Scriptures EXPLICITLY say?

^NKJ Romans 5:10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

[pnattmbtc]

Believe and be reconciled? Why NOT just simply believe that we ALREADY were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, as Scriptures EXPLICITLY say?

NKJ Romans 5:10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

I'm getting a feeling of deja vu.  I responded to this on the other thread.

Ok, I'll repeat myself, but I'll be brief.

1.The means of reconciliation is by believing the gospel.  We cannot be reconciled without believing the Gospel.

2.The following makes this point clear:

20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. (2 Cor. 5:20)

Why would be plead for others to be reconciled in Christ's behalf if they were already reconciled?  Doesn't make sense.

[Samie]

I'm getting a feeling of deja vu.  I responded to this on the other thread.

Ok, I'll repeat myself, but I'll be brief.

1.The means of reconciliation is by believing the gospel.  We cannot be reconciled without believing the Gospel.

2.The following makes this point clear:

Why would be plead for others to be reconciled in Christ's behalf if they were already reconciled?  Doesn't make sense.

Really? Or you are the one not making any sense? Paul wrote to "all that are in Rome" many of whom had not even heard of Christ before, and he was telling them EXPLICITLY, they were reconciled to God by the death of His Son.  Why would he tell them that if they weren't? Is he telling a lie or someone else does?

[pnattmbtc]

Really? Or you are the one not making any sense? Paul wrote to "all that are in Rome" many of whom had not even heard of Christ before, and he was telling them EXPLICITLY, they were reconciled to God by the death of His Son.  Why would he tell them that if they weren't? Is he telling a lie or someone else does?

You didn't address the point I made, which is this:

1.The means of reconciliation is by believing the gospel.  We cannot be reconciled without believing the Gospel.

2.The following makes this point clear:

  Quote

20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. (2 Cor. 5:20)

Why would Paul tell people to be reconciled to God if they already were?  How could this be our message as Christ's ambassadors?

Also, I'd confused as to what you think "reconciled" means.  I realize English isn't your first language.  I've quoted the dictionary definition for you several times.  Here it is again: "restore friendly relations between."

In what you write, you evidently have an understanding that reconciliation is something unilateral, but it isn't.  Your reading of the text, in addition to contradicting what Paul wrote ("be ye reconciled to God") doesn't make grammatical sense.

 

[Samie]

 

You didn't address the point I made, which is this:

1.The means of reconciliation is by believing the gospel.  We cannot be reconciled without believing the Gospel.

2.The following makes this point clear:

Why would Paul tell people to be reconciled to God if they already were?  How could this be our message as Christ's ambassadors?

Also, I'd confused as to what you think "reconciled" means.  I realize English isn't your first language.  I've quoted the dictionary definition for you several times.  Here it is again: "restore friendly relations between."

In what you write, you evidently have an understanding that reconciliation is something unilateral, but it isn't.  Your reading of the text, in addition to contradicting what Paul wrote ("be ye reconciled to God") doesn't make grammatical sense.

 

It's you not making grammatical sense.  Paul EXPLICITLY said to "all who are in Rome" and that includes believers and non-believers alike) that they had been reconciled to God through the death of His Son. You want to make the Bible say what you want it to say, brother. Here's that verse again:

NKJ Romans 5:10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

[pnattmbtc]

It's you not making grammatical sense.  Paul EXPLICITLY said to "all who are in Rome" and that includes believers and non-believers alike) that they had been reconciled to God through the death of His Son. You want to make the Bible say what you want it to say, brother. Here's that verse again:

NKJ Romans 5:10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Samie, you're just ignoring what I wrote.  Please don't do that.  Please address the point.  I addressed your point in detail on the other thread.  Please be as courteous to me as I have been to you, and address my point.

Why did Paul say our message as Christ's ambassadors is "be ye reconciled to God" if we are already reconciled to God?  Why should that be our message?

[pnattmbtc]

NKJ Romans 5:10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

I will bring up a point I've made in regards to the Ephesians text, as it applies here as well.  Notice the verse says that we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son when we were enemies.  Now when we were enemies?  Was it be before we existed?  No, that wouldn't make sense, would it?  It was before we believed in Christ, of course.  Does that make sense?  Yes it does, because before we believed in Christ we were "enemies in our own mind" (Col. 1:21) and "alienated from God" (Col. 1:21).

Why were we enemies?  Because we didn't understand or believe the truth.  "Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free."  What is the truth?  The truth is that God is not at all like he has been represented by the enemy of souls, but "When you've seen Me, you've seen the Father."  Especially is this truth seen in the death of cross.  "No man has seen God at any time.  The only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared him."  "He hath declared Him" is translated in another version as "He has shown us what God is really like," and this is exactly what we needed.

The only way in which he could set and keep men right was to make himself visible and familiar to their eyes. That men might have salvation he came directly to man, and became a partaker of his nature.
The Father was revealed in Christ as altogether a different being from that which Satan had represented him to be....Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,—to set men right through the revelation of God. (ST 1/20/90)

This is justification by faith!  Notice Paul says that being justified by faith, we have peace with God (<= which is what being reconciled means).  Also if we believe with our heart, we will be justified.

Once we get the concept, all the texts fit together.

Edited October 7, 2015 by pnattmbtc

[Samie]

I will bring up a point I've made in regards to the Ephesians text, as it applies here as well.  Notice the verse says that we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son when we were enemies.  Now when we were enemies?  Was it be before we existed?  No, that wouldn't make sense, would it?  It was before we believed in Christ, of course.  Does that make sense?  Yes it does, because before we believed in Christ we were "enemies in our own mind" (Col. 1:21) and "alienated from God" (Col. 1:21).

Why were we enemies?  Because we didn't understand or believe the truth.  "Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free."  What is the truth?  The truth is that God is not at all like he has been represented by the enemy of souls, but "When you've seen Me, you've seen the Father."  Especially is this truth seen in the death of cross.  "No man has seen God at any time.  The only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared him."  "He hath declared Him" is translated in another version as "He has shown us what God is really like," and this is exactly what we needed.

The only way in which he could set and keep men right was to make himself visible and familiar to their eyes. That men might have salvation he came directly to man, and became a partaker of his nature.
The Father was revealed in Christ as altogether a different being from that which Satan had represented him to be....Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,—to set men right through the revelation of God. (ST 1/20/90)

This is justification by faith!  Notice Paul says that being justified by faith, we have peace with God (<= which is what being reconciled means).  Also if we believe with our heart, we will be justified.

Once we get the concept, all the texts fit together.

That means you have not yet gotten the Scriptural concept right. Sorry to have said that, brother.

When Paul said, "When we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son" (Rom 5:10), did he tell the truth? Yes.

When Paul said, "Be ye reconciled to God" (2 Cor 5:20), did he tell the truth? Yes.

So, if both statements are true, why can't you simply believe both?

I believe we were reconciled to God when Christ died, because Christ attached us to His Body on the cross. In fact, Paul said he was crucified with Christ.  And when Christ was hanging there on the cross, Paul was still an enemy! And since we are Christ's body, how could we not be reconciled to God? And in his letter to the Romans, Paul was addressing "all who are in Rome", believers and non-believers alike.  All of us - believers and non-believers alike - were reconciled to God on the cross!

I also believe in the admonition "Be ye reconciled to God".  Does this mean the Corinthian believers to whom the letter was specifically addressed, are not yet reconciled to God? No. How so? Because Paul calls them the church of God (2 Cor 1:1)!  And so Paul was admonishing the church of God at Corinth (and therefore already reconciled to God) "Be ye reconciled to God".   So to ask those already reconciled to God "be ye reconciled to God", for me, means they are to live reconciled lives. Simply put, overcome evil with good.

[pnattmbtc]

That means you have not yet gotten the Scriptural concept right. Sorry to have said that, brother.

When Paul said, "When we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son" (Rom 5:10), did he tell the truth? Yes.

When Paul said, "Be ye reconciled to God" (2 Cor 5:20), did he tell the truth? Yes.

So, if both statements are true, why can't you simply believe both?

I believe we were reconciled to God when Christ died, because Christ attached us to His Body on the cross. In fact, Paul said he was crucified with Christ.  And when Christ was hanging there on the cross, Paul was still an enemy! And since we are Christ's body, how could we not be reconciled to God? And in his letter to the Romans, Paul was addressing "all who are in Rome", believers and non-believers alike.  All of us - believers and non-believers alike - were reconciled to God on the cross!

I also believe in the admonition "Be ye reconciled to God".  Does this mean the Corinthian believers to whom the letter was specifically addressed, are not yet reconciled to God? No. How so? Because Paul calls them the church of God (2 Cor 1:1)!  And so Paul was admonishing the church of God at Corinth (and therefore already reconciled to God) "Be ye reconciled to God".   So to ask those already reconciled to God "be ye reconciled to God", for me, means they are to live reconciled lives. Simply put, overcome evil with good.

Samie, if the Corinthians were already reconciled to God, how could Paul implore them to "be reconciled to God."?  It should be crystal clear that you're simply wrong here.  It reminds me of the old adage "convince a man against his will, and he is of the same opinion still".

Basically, there are several different interpretations of Romans 5:10.  Your view has grammatical problems (your idea does not square with the the word "reconciled" means), logical problems (it makes no sense to say we were enemies of God, or reconciled, when we did not exist), and it directly contradicts the words of the one who wrote them!  Paul wrote the following:

17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.

Here's another translation:

17 So if anyone is in Christ, there is a new creation: everything old has passed away; see, everything has become new! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and entrusting the message of reconciliation to us. 20 So we are ambassadors for Christ, since God is making his appeal through us; we entreat you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. (NRSV)

Now this is very clear. Let's go through sentence by sentence.

1.If anyone is in Christ, there is a new creation.

Notice how this squares with the following:

12 But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God (John 1:12)

The same idea is presented by these two inspired writers.  If we believe in Christ, if we receive Him as our personal savior, then we become children of God, reconciled to God.

Continuing:

2.This is from God, who has given us the message of reconciliation.

Now what is the message of reconciliation?  Is it "you have been reconciled to God before you existed, without your participation"?  No, it is "in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself,not counting their trespasses against them."

So here Paul tells us what the message of reconciliation is.

3.Then Paul says that we are Christ's ambassadors, pleading with those who have not believed in Christ, with those who have not received Him, with those who are not yet children of God, "be reconciled to God."

I don't understand why instead of adapting your view so that it agrees with what scripture actually says, you hold to a view that is not grammatically or logically sound, and directly contradicts what the same author of the view you hold says elsewhere.

[Samie]

 

Samie, if the Corinthians were already reconciled to God, how could Paul implore them to "be reconciled to God."?  It should be crystal clear that you're simply wrong here.  It reminds me of the old adage "convince a man against his will, and he is of the same opinion still".

Basically, there are several different interpretations of Romans 5:10.  Your view has grammatical problems (your idea does not square with the the word "reconciled" means), logical problems (it makes no sense to say we were enemies of God, or reconciled, when we did not exist), and it directly contradicts the words of the one who wrote them!  Paul wrote the following:

Here's another translation:

Now this is very clear. Let's go through sentence by sentence.

1.If anyone is in Christ, there is a new creation.

Notice how this squares with the following:

The same idea is presented by these two inspired writers.  If we believe in Christ, if we receive Him as our personal savior, then we become children of God, reconciled to God.

Continuing:

2.This is from God, who has given us the message of reconciliation.

Now what is the message of reconciliation?  Is it "you have been reconciled to God before you existed, without your participation"?  No, it is "in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself,not counting their trespasses against them."

So here Paul tells us what the message of reconciliation is.

3.Then Paul says that we are Christ's ambassadors, pleading with those who have not believed in Christ, with those who have not received Him, with those who are not yet children of God, "be reconciled to God."

I don't understand why instead of adapting your view so that it agrees with what scripture actually says, you hold to a view that is not grammatically or logically sound, and directly contradicts what the same author of the view you hold says elsewhere.

To whom Paul addressed his letter? Yes, to the church of God at Corinth. How can they be the church of God at Corinth when they are not YET children of God?  How can they be children of God when they are not yet reconciled to God? And yet, the apostle is admonishing the church of God at Corinth "be ye reconciled to God". 

I have told you it simply means they need to live reconciled lives. But you disagree.  Are you saying that when Paul admonished the church of God at Corinth "be ye reconciled to God", the church of God at Corinth were not yet His children? It appears to be so since you said the admonition is for " those who are not yet children of God". That's your problem you need to solve. Had you simply believed we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son, as Scriptures EXPLICITLY say, then, you would not have this problem.