Will the redeemed be on this earth for the last plagues?

[8thdaypriest]

Zephaniah 1:14-18  “. . . On the day of the Lord’s wrath;  And all the earth will be devoured in the fire of His jealousy, For He will make a complete end, Indeed a terrifying one, Of all the inhabitants of the earth.” NAS

    Genesis 6:13  “And God said to Noah, ‘The end of all flesh has come before Me, for the earth is filled with violence through them; and behold, I will destroy them with the earth.’”

("As it was in the day of Noah" Luke 17:26-30)

    Jeremiah 4:23-26 [After the great day of the Lord] “I beheld the earth, and indeed it was without form, and void; And the heavens, they had no light.  I beheld the mountains, and indeed they trembled, And all the hills moved back and forth.  I beheld, and indeed there was no man,  

Isaiah Chapter 24
        24:1  “Behold the Lord makes the earth empty, and makes it waste, distorts its surface and scatters abroad its inhabitants.”

FIRST:  I agree that the last plagues (the wrath plagues) will leave earth utterly devastated, lifeless, and uninhabited.  I AGREE with SDA eschatology concerning the condition of earth during the 7th millennium. 

What I would like to discuss is the question of the redeemed being present ON THE EARTH during the 7 last plagues - the wrath plagues. 

In the TYPE,  Noah and his family was shut inside the ark BEFORE the rain came.  LOT was pulled OUT of Sodom BEFORE the fireballs hit. 

The "harvest" wheat must be "gathered" into the barn BEFORE you burn up the chaff.

There is no mention of any servant of God on earth during the last wrath plagues.  In fact,  just before these plagues are poured out, John the revelator sees those who have gotten the victory over the Beast and over his image, now standing on the sea of glass, which is before the thrown of God in heaven (Rev. 15:2, Rev. 4:6).

        Paul wrote that the redeemed would be changed “in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.   The living are “changed” and the dead are “raised incorruptible” when the last trumpet sounds.  The “last” trumpet is the 7th trumpet.   The wrath plagues are poured out AFTER the 7th trumpet sounds.

SECOND:  I do believe that the redeemed (those with the seal) WILL be on the earth during the warning Trumpet judgments.  I believe those judgments will fall during the 1260 days (42 months) of persecution leading up to the Court scene in Daniel 7.  That is when the 2 witnesses will be giving their testimony for 42 months. 

 

[8thdaypriest]

NAU  Daniel 12:1 "Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands guard over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued (NAU).

Some would say that Daniel's people are "delivered" or "rescued" at the END of that "time of distress".  From the reading, I would say they are delivered at the START of that time. 

The last 7 wrath plagues are WORSE than the trumpet judgments - at least in extent.  So the time of the 7 wrath plagues that destroy all life on earth would be the GREATEST "time of trouble" that ever was.  Right? 

[JoeMo]

I agree with you that the church will either be taken off of the earth or otherwise protected when the bowls are poured out.  For some time now; I have placed that rapture sometime around the 5th Trumpet (the first of the three Woes); but your quote about the "last trumpet" makes pretty good sense.  I hate to say it, but I'm still on the fence about the millennium on earth vs. the millennium in heaven.

[brotherly love]

Zephaniah 1:14-18  “. . . On the day of the Lord’s wrath;  And all the earth will be devoured in the fire of His jealousy, For He will make a complete end, Indeed a terrifying one, Of all the inhabitants of the earth.” NAS

    Genesis 6:13  “And God said to Noah, ‘The end of all flesh has come before Me, for the earth is filled with violence through them; and behold, I will destroy them with the earth.’”

("As it was in the day of Noah" Luke 17:26-30)

    Jeremiah 4:23-26 [After the great day of the Lord] “I beheld the earth, and indeed it was without form, and void; And the heavens, they had no light.  I beheld the mountains, and indeed they trembled, And all the hills moved back and forth.  I beheld, and indeed there was no man,  

Isaiah Chapter 24
        24:1  “Behold the Lord makes the earth empty, and makes it waste, distorts its surface and scatters abroad its inhabitants.”

FIRST:  I agree that the last plagues (the wrath plagues) will leave earth utterly devastated, lifeless, and uninhabited.  I AGREE with SDA eschatology concerning the condition of earth during the 7th millennium. 

What I would like to discuss is the question of the redeemed being present ON THE EARTH during the 7 last plagues - the wrath plagues. 

In the TYPE,  Noah and his family was shut inside the ark BEFORE the rain came.  LOT was pulled OUT of Sodom BEFORE the fireballs hit. 

The "harvest" wheat must be "gathered" into the barn BEFORE you burn up the chaff.

There is no mention of any servant of God on earth during the last wrath plagues.  In fact,  just before these plagues are poured out, John the revelator sees those who have gotten the victory over the Beast and over his image, now standing on the sea of glass, which is before the thrown of God in heaven (Rev. 15:2, Rev. 4:6).

        Paul wrote that the redeemed would be changed “in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.   The living are “changed” and the dead are “raised incorruptible” when the last trumpet sounds.  The “last” trumpet is the 7th trumpet.   The wrath plagues are poured out AFTER the 7th trumpet sounds.

SECOND:  I do believe that the redeemed (those with the seal) WILL be on the earth during the warning Trumpet judgments.  I believe those judgments will fall during the 1260 days (42 months) of persecution leading up to the Court scene in Daniel 7.  That is when the 2 witnesses will be giving their testimony for 42 months. 

 

You wont see last plagues. It is very important to know the Bible as a whole. The thrust of revelation is the destruction of the covenant, and the ushering in of the Jerusalem above.

Jerusalem is depicted as the enemies of God, and uses the judgements of the enemies of God in the past, and recapitulates it to apostate Jerusalem. The plagues are reminescent of the plagues against Egypt. Now it is used against Jerusalem. The parallels of Ezekiel are hard to ignore, the book of revelation follow it, the harlot before the first exile becomes the same harlot of the second and final destruction.

The man of sin recapitulates antiochus Epiphanese, and another would rise, and there would be no Judas the hammer to save them this time.

[brotherly love]

Zephaniah 1:14-18  “. . . On the day of the Lord’s wrath;  And all the earth will be devoured in the fire of His jealousy, For He will make a complete end, Indeed a terrifying one, Of all the inhabitants of the earth.” NAS

    Genesis 6:13  “And God said to Noah, ‘The end of all flesh has come before Me, for the earth is filled with violence through them; and behold, I will destroy them with the earth.’”

("As it was in the day of Noah" Luke 17:26-30)

    Jeremiah 4:23-26 [After the great day of the Lord] “I beheld the earth, and indeed it was without form, and void; And the heavens, they had no light.  I beheld the mountains, and indeed they trembled, And all the hills moved back and forth.  I beheld, and indeed there was no man,  

Isaiah Chapter 24
        24:1  “Behold the Lord makes the earth empty, and makes it waste, distorts its surface and scatters abroad its inhabitants.”

 

I would like to point a few things out to you, not in spite, but in conversation.

The context of Zephaniah 1 is about Judah and Jerusalem

“I will stretch out my hand against Judah
    and against all who live in Jerusalem.
I will destroy every remnant of Baal worship in this place,
    the very names of the idolatrous priests

The context of Jeremiah 4 is the destruction of Jerusalem by Babylon.

“Announce in Judah and proclaim in Jerusalem and say:
    ‘Sound the trumpet throughout the land!’
Cry aloud and say:
    ‘Gather together!
    Let us flee to the fortified cities!’

Verses 23-26 are covenant language-the curse of the Law of Moses are enacted. right after verse 26, this is given

²⁷ This is what the Lord says:

“The whole land will be ruined,
    though I will not destroy it completely.
²⁸ Therefore the earth will mourn
    and the heavens above grow dark,
because I have spoken and will not relent,
    I have decided and will not turn back.”

The mini apocalypse of Isaiah 24 is part of chapters 24-27

In Isaiah chapter 24, the destruction is given in these terms

Therefore a curse consumes the earth;
    its people must bear their guilt.
Therefore earth’s inhabitants are burned up,
    and very few are left.

Isaiah 24 describes the judgment on a corrupted earth. Chapter 25 shows the praise of people because of this judgment. chapters 26 and 27 shows the relatiobship of God with his people.

This is a very simplistic generalization of Isaiahs apocalypse on my part, but food for thought

 

[8thdaypriest]

You wont see last plagues. It is very important to know the Bible as a whole. The thrust of revelation is the destruction of the covenant, and the ushering in of the Jerusalem above.

Jerusalem is depicted as the enemies of God, and uses the judgements of the enemies of God in the past, and recapitulates it to apostate Jerusalem. The plagues are reminescent of the plagues against Egypt. Now it is used against Jerusalem. The parallels of Ezekiel are hard to ignore, the book of revelation follow it, the harlot before the first exile becomes the same harlot of the second and final destruction.

The man of sin recapitulates antiochus Epiphanese, and another would rise, and there would be no Judas the hammer to save them this time.

I agree that Jerusalem (the capitol of the modern nation of Israel) will become "the Harlot" of Revelation.  She will become a Harlot, because she will turn to other powers (the Beast) to preserve her life, rather than relying on her God.  Same as she did in the past. 

[8thdaypriest]

I would like to point a few things out to you, not in spite, but in conversation.

The context of Zephaniah 1 is about Judah and Jerusalem

“I will stretch out my hand against Judah
    and against all who live in Jerusalem.
I will destroy every remnant of Baal worship in this place,
    the very names of the idolatrous priests

The context of Jeremiah 4 is the destruction of Jerusalem by Babylon.

“Announce in Judah and proclaim in Jerusalem and say:
    ‘Sound the trumpet throughout the land!’
Cry aloud and say:
    ‘Gather together!
    Let us flee to the fortified cities!’

Verses 23-26 are covenant language-the curse of the Law of Moses are enacted. right after verse 26, this is given

²⁷ This is what the Lord says:

“The whole land will be ruined,
    though I will not destroy it completely.
²⁸ Therefore the earth will mourn
    and the heavens above grow dark,
because I have spoken and will not relent,
    I have decided and will not turn back.”

The mini apocalypse of Isaiah 24 is part of chapters 24-27

In Isaiah chapter 24, the destruction is given in these terms

Therefore a curse consumes the earth;
    its people must bear their guilt.
Therefore earth’s inhabitants are burned up,
    and very few are left.

Isaiah 24 describes the judgment on a corrupted earth. Chapter 25 shows the praise of people because of this judgment. chapters 26 and 27 shows the relatiobship of God with his people.

This is a very simplistic generalization of Isaiahs apocalypse on my part, but food for thought

 

If Jerusalem becomes the last days "Harlot", then the judgments will fall on "her", AND on the whole earth. 

[8thdaypriest]

Revelation 15:1 "Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous: seven angels having the seven last plagues, for in them the wrath of God is complete. 2 And I saw something like a sea of glass mingled with fire, and those who have the victory over the beast, over his image and over his mark and over the number of his name, standing on the sea of glass, having harps of God. 3 They sing the song of Moses, the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb" [The victory song].  (NKJ)

Here the redeemed are standing on the sea of glass, as the final wrath plagues are poured out. 

The trumpet judgments ARE plagues.  But they are limited in extent to 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 (Who does THAT remind you of?  "third of the stars of heaven").  I believe these trumpet plagues could be Satan's plagues, to convince people on earth that these are the 7 LAST plagues.  Then He can appear as Christ come. 

The wrath plagues are universal.  Everyone with the mark of the Beast is plagued with the sores.  The entire sea "became blood.  All of the rivers become blood.  The sun gets hotter - which would effect the entire earth. 

During the trumpet plagues, the demons are commanded NOT to harm anyone with the "seal of God".  There is no such command during the final wrath plagues.  That suggests to me, that those with the seal of God are translated at the 7th trumpet, before the final wrath plagues begin.   

[brotherly love]

If Jerusalem becomes the last days "Harlot", then the judgments will fall on "her", AND on the whole earth. 

How can an unbelieving secular country specifically become a harlot outside of any other country?

[brotherly love]

I agree that Jerusalem (the capitol of the modern nation of Israel) will become "the Harlot" of Revelation.  She will become a Harlot, because she will turn to other powers (the Beast) to preserve her life, rather than relying on her God.  Same as she did in the past. 

So an unbeiliving country can became a harlot?

[brotherly love]

 

The trumpet judgments ARE plagues.  But they are limited in extent to 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 (Who does THAT remind you of?  "third of the stars of heaven").  I believe these trumpet plagues could be Satan's plagues, to convince people on earth that these are the 7 LAST plagues.  Then He can appear as Christ come. 

It reminds me of Ezekiel 5 and the first exile and destruction of Jerusalem. It is written to recapitulate the second destruction of Jerusalem. The scenes in Heaven in revelation is Jesus Christ taking the throne and coming in judgment on apostate Jerusalem. Jesus gave us proof that He is in Heaven with authority.

 “Now, son of man, take a sharp sword and use it as a barber’s razor to shave your head and your beard. Then take a set of scales and divide up the hair. ² When the days of your siege come to an end, burn a third of the hair inside the city. Take a third and strike it with the sword all around the city. And scatter a third to the wind. For I will pursue them with drawn sword. ³ But take a few hairs and tuck them away in the folds of your garment. ⁴ Again, take a few of these and throw them into the fire and burn them up. A fire will spread from there to all Israel.

If you promote a future revisionism of the destruction of Jerusalem, then the curses would still apply to apostate Jews that Jesus pronounced on them, many people have used this as a proof text to persecute Jewish people, but after the destruction of Jersusalem, they are no different than any other person or people or country that rejects God

[hch]

Oba_1:15  For the day of the LORD is near upon all the heathen: as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee: thy reward shall return upon thine own head.

Joel_2:11  And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

Zep_2:3  Seek ye the LORD, all ye meek of the earth, which have wrought his judgment; seek righteousness, seek meekness: it may be ye shall be hid in the day of the LORD'S anger.

2Pe_3:10  But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

[8thdaypriest]

How can an unbelieving secular country specifically become a harlot outside of any other country?

The nation of Israel today, claims to be a "Jewish nation".  They censer materials that they consider to be "Christian" from coming into the country.  I believe that in the last days, Jerusalem will be destroyed and then built up again - including a rebuilt Temple of Yahweh. 

[brotherly love]

The nation of Israel today, claims to be a "Jewish nation".  They censer materials that they consider to be "Christian" from coming into the country.  I believe that in the last days, Jerusalem will be destroyed and then built up again - including a rebuilt Temple of Yahweh. 

Hi Good talkin to ya!!

Despite what Hebrews says about this, despite the atonement of the cross-God is going to resurrect a Temple that was done away with long ago

[B/W Photodude]

Personally, I don't think so. The only temple God now has use for is the temple in heaven of which the earthly temple was representative of. Now, will a temple be built? Probably, because enough Christians out there believe that Jesus will not come until it is built. But,it will be a man made temple.

Many years ago, I heard a story that Christians in this country already had a temple ready to erect on Temple Mount when the Dome of the Rock, for whatever reason, should no longer be on temple mount. 

[8thdaypriest]

Hi Good talkin to ya!!

Despite what Hebrews says about this, despite the atonement of the cross-God is going to resurrect a Temple that was done away with long ago

No - It will NOT be God who resurrects a Temple in Jerusalem.  It will be the current nation of Israel.  The Antichrist will make use of that Temple, to deceive.

He will make a covenant with many for one week (Daniel 9:27).  But in the midst of the week, he will take away the daily burnt offering, and place there the abomination that causes desolation. "He" would be the "little horn" (false prophet), who speaks for the Beast power. 

Daniel 11:31 “Forces sent by him shall occupy and profane the Temple and fortress. They shall abolish the regular burnt offering and set up the abomination that makes desolate.” (NRS)

        NOTE: In this passage, the one who will abolish the regular burnt offering, is ALSO the one who will set up the abomination of desolation.  The abomination of desolation is set up in place of the regular (continual or "daily") burnt offering.

KJV  Daniel 11:45 "And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him."  The Little Horn Antichrist will set himself up in the Temple, on the Mount. 

Edited July 31, 2015 by 8thdaypriest

[8thdaypriest]

So an unbeiliving country can became a harlot?

NKJ  Leviticus 21:9 `The daughter of any priest, if she profanes herself by playing the harlot, she profanes her father. She shall be burned with fire. (Lev 21:9 NKJ)

And what happens to the harlot of Revelation?  The ten kings turn on her, and "burn her with fire". 

Isaiah 1:21 "How is the faithful city become an harlot! it was full of judgment; righteousness lodged in it; but now murderers." (KJV)

[hch]

Despite what Hebrews says about this, despite the atonement of the cross-God is going to resurrect a Temple that was done away with long ago

There is an inspired quote from EGW that says it will not happen. That is good enough for me.

[B/W Photodude]

They recently had a red heifer in Israel, but no one took the opportunity to re-establish a temple. Red heifers are very rare and as I understand it, it requires a red heifer to rebuild the temple.

http://www.templeinstitute.org/red_heifer/tenth_red_heifer.htm

[brotherly love]

No - It will NOT be God who resurrects a Temple in Jerusalem.  It will be the current nation of Israel.  The Antichrist will make use of that Temple, to deceive.

He will make a covenant with many for one week (Daniel 9:27).  But in the midst of the week, he will take away the daily burnt offering, and place there the abomination that causes desolation. "He" would be the "little horn" (false prophet), who speaks for the Beast power. 

Daniel 11:31 “Forces sent by him shall occupy and profane the Temple and fortress. They shall abolish the regular burnt offering and set up the abomination that makes desolate.” (NRS)

        NOTE: In this passage, the one who will abolish the regular burnt offering, is ALSO the one who will set up the abomination of desolation.  The abomination of desolation is set up in place of the regular (continual or "daily") burnt offering.

KJV  Daniel 11:45 "And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him."  The Little Horn Antichrist will set himself up in the Temple, on the Mount. 

How can a Temple built with human hands be desolated? Let alone unbelieving secular hands? In order for it to be desolated it would have to contain the Glory of God.

how can the glory of God be in a Temple built by a people and state that denies Christ-this is antiChrist.

[Aliensanctuary]

B/W---Where is this "heaven" that so many believe they are going to after death? Will it orbit the Earth or orbit the sun like a planet? Is it located in another part of the galaxy, in another galaxy, or, in another dimension?

I think "heaven" should be defined as "above" or "space", as in outer space. "Heaven" is not a city, but the place where the starship city/cities are located.

We can see from the scriptures that Babylon, the Whoring City was once a city of YHVH, pure and uncorrupted until it was overrun by the forces of evil. When the City of YHVH establishes the Kingdom of YHVH, the newly resurrected 144K begin the Restored Kingdom of Israel's rule of the planet. The Woman Clothed with the Sun and Standing on the Moon is the brilliantly lit Daughter of Zion, the City of YHVH, arriving here from deep space.

Near the end of the 1K years, though, when the forces of evil are released from the depths, they soon overwhelm the forces of YHVH, taking over the beautiful City of Light and turning it into a den of evil. After being hijacked, the City of YHVH is transformed into the Harlot Clothed in Purple, filled with wickedness and false "religion". Merchants from Earth sell their cargoes to Babylon, not realizing that the city is about to escape a doomed planet, leaving them all behind to die.

During the war in the skies over Earth, Babylon, the City-Whore is shot down and destroyed when it plunges into the sea, and so is Satan's craft knocked out of the skies, along with many other spacecraft.

 

I'm out of time, here, but you get my gist. The women, Babylon and the Woman Clothed with the Sun, are the same city but in different times, not from Earth, but from space.

I agree with those who believe that just before the destruction of all life on the planet, those whose names are in the Book of Life are rescued while those whose names are in the Book of Death are left behind to face unspeakable torment and their eternal doom.

 

 

 

 

[JoeMo]

There is an inspired quote from EGW that says it will not happen. That is good enough for me.

When what EGW says contradicts scripture, is it still good enough for you?  Even she says that if someting she writes contradicts scripture, reject it.  What she says about there never being a 3rd Temple has no basis in scripture; scripture actually strongly supports a 3rd Temple in the last days.  Plans are available to the public.  The Sannhedrin has been reassemled.  Almost all of the Temple furnishings are built.  There are currently multiple candidates for the proverbial red heifer.  There are even Jewish, Christian, and Muslim groups talking about building a Temple that would be open to all 3 faiths.

[8thdaypriest]

How can a Temple built with human hands be desolated? Let alone unbelieving secular hands? In order for it to be desolated it would have to contain the Glory of God.

how can the glory of God be in a Temple built by a people and state that denies Christ-this is antiChrist.

THAT Mount belongs to the LORD.  He said so.  The Jews - in rebuilding the Temple on  that Mount, will be following what was commanded by the LORD.  They quote the prophecies of "return" and believe their current presence "in the land" fulfills the prophecy.  I personally believe their most resent "return" is a counterfeit, for the true return of the redeemed Israel, under Christ Jesus. 

[8thdaypriest]

Hebrews 11:16 But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them. (NKJ)

Hebrews 11:10 for he [Abraham] waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God. (Heb 11:10 NKJ)

 

[B/W Photodude]

There are even Jewish, Christian, and Muslim groups talking about building a Temple that would be open to all 3 faiths.

I would guess when that happens, all three will keep Sunday. It has been prophesied that the antiChrist imitating Jesus would promise peace when everyone keeps Sunday.