Will the redeemed be on this earth for the last plagues?

[JoeMo]

I would guess when that happens, all three will keep Sunday. It has been prophesied that the antiChrist imitating Jesus would promise peace when everyone keeps Sunday.

Could you please provide a scripture referece for this?  I couldn't find any references for it.  I'm thinking it was "profesied" by EGW over 125 years ago.  If so, I would consider a "forecast" rather than a "prophecy".  If there is any day all 3 faiths will keep, it will be Friday if you want to keep your head attached to your body - especially if you live in the Middle east.

[8thdaypriest]

Jeremiah 30:7 Alas! For that day is great, So that none is like it; And it is the time of Jacob's trouble, But he shall be saved out of it. (NKJ)

The "time of Jacob's trouble" will be the "time, times, and a part" (1260 days, 42 months) during which the saints are "given into his hand" (Dan. 7:25)  That time ENDs with the pronouncement of the Heavenly Court, giving dominion to Christ and His saints. 

The START of this time period is:  "they shall take away the daily, and place there the abomination of desolation".  (Dan. 11:31).  This is when "the people who know their God shall be strong and carry out great exploits"  And those of the people who understand shall instruct many, yet for many days they shall fall by sword, and flame, by captivity and plundering" (Dan 11:32-33). 

Daniel 12:7  "it shall be for a time, times, and half a time, and WHEN the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished."  "Completely shattered" sounds like "great tribulation" to me. 

The "great multitude" of Revelation 7:9-15 are said to be "the ones who come out of the great tribulation".  I don't think this means that all of these people went through the last 1260 days.  I think that is the time frame, of their deliverance.  They will be resurrected, or translated at the END of the "great tribulation period".  That's the same in Daniel 12:1-3. 

In Daniel 12:1 Michael stands up, or "will arise".  Michael has been sitting at the right hand of the Father.  He rises to go into the Court scene of Daniel 7:9-10.  I think it possible that the time of the Court meeting in Heaven, parallels the last 1260 days on earth, during which the "saints" are severely persecuted. 

WHEN the "kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ" (Rev 11:15), which HAPPENS at the 7th Trumpet, (and the conclusion of the Heavenly Court scene in Daniel)  THEN the 24 elders say, "Your wrath has come".  "Your wrath" would be the 7 last vial plagues.  It is also TIME to "reward Your servants" and to "destroy those who destroy the earth" (Rev. 11:15-18).  The wrath plagues destroy them, along with the earth. 

  

[8thdaypriest]

The last 7 wrath plagues BEGIN under the 7th Trumpet. 

The "two witnesses" testify and are persecuted for 42 months (Rev. Cpt 11).  Then they are killed.  Three and a half days later, they are resurrected, and the voice of God calls them up to Heaven. 

Revelation 11:14  "And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, 'Come up here.'  And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them."  AND the 7th Trumpet sounds.  And a voice says "the second woe is past".    The third "woe" would be the vial wrath plagues under the 7th trumpet.  It looks to me - like the witnesses are in heaven, during that 3rd woe.

[8thdaypriest]

I'm wondering whether the LORD considers the 7 wrath plagues on the wicked a "time of trouble".  Maybe the "time of Jacob's trouble" IS the "time of trouble such as never was".  After all - the universal Beast power will try to wipe out the people of God.  They will be "given into his hand" and will be "completely shattered". 

The execution of the wicked, would not be a "time of trouble".  It would be justice - from God's point of view. 

[8thdaypriest]

I would guess when that happens, all three will keep Sunday. It has been prophesied that the antiChrist imitating Jesus would promise peace when everyone keeps Sunday.

If you want, I can start a thread on whether there will be a third Temple on the Mount before the SC.  (I believe there WILL be.  This thread is asking whether the redeemed will be present on earth during the last 7 wrath plagues. 

[brotherly love]

Hebrews 11:16 But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them. (NKJ)

Hebrews 11:10 for he [Abraham] waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God. (Heb 11:10 NKJ)

 

Respectfully, the writer of Hebrews chapter 11 is making the opposite point of what you are claiming.

The opening remarks sets the tone of the message that the faithful were confident of what they could not see

"Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. ² This is what the ancients were commended for."

It goes on to communicate this message of being faithful and confident of the unseen

By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family.

By faith Abraham, when called to go to a place he would later receive as his inheritance, obeyed and went, even though he did not know where he was going.

This would have been written while Jerusalem was still intact. The earthly Jerusalem was a symbol of the churches faith in the unknown in the past, but now was destined for destruction. The new promise in the unseen was the destruction of the apostate physical Jerusalem as Jesus predicted and the Heavenly Jerusalem from above is our unseen hope.

To resort to the types and shadows that pointed to Jesus is revisionism. I do hope this helps

[Samie]

Rev 15 makes clear that the righteous are already standing on the sea of glass in heaven singing the song of the Lamb when the 7 angels are given the 7 vials still full of the 7 last plagues. They are then commanded in Rev 16:1 to pour the vials of God's wrath upon the wicked on the earth.

I believe the time of trouble (Dan 12:1) = the great tribulation (Matt 24:21) is a short period of time (barely more than a month). Jesus said God will shorten the occurrence of the great tribulation or no one will remain alive when Christ returns. And IMMEDIATELY after the great tribulation, unusual celestial phenomena will occur which will be capped by our Lord's return.

Our Savior said that when He comes again He will reward EVERY MAN according to what each has done (Matt 16:27; Rev 22:12). For the righteous - those whose names remained in the Book of Life: eternal life and ushered to heaven for the wedding of the Lamb; for the wicked: suffering and death in the 7 last plagues before the 1000-year-reign of Christ with the righteous on earth, and at the end of the millennial reign, they will be resurrected and thrown into the lake of fire - their second death.

[hch]

When what EGW says contradicts scripture, is it still good enough for you? 

I've never found EGW to contradict Scripture.

She has blown away false interpretations and clarified things that were not well understood. 

But I have also seen folks misinterpret her clear statements or prefer their views to hers.

[LifeHiscost]

Rev 15 makes clear that the righteous are already standing on the sea of glass in heaven singing the song of the Lamb when the 7 angels are given the 7 vials still full of the 7 last plagues. They are then commanded in Rev 16:1 to pour the vials of God's wrath upon the wicked on the earth.

I believe the time of trouble (Dan 12:1) = the great tribulation (Matt 24:21) is a short period of time (barely more than a month). Jesus said God will shorten the occurrence of the great tribulation or no one will remain alive when Christ returns. And IMMEDIATELY after the great tribulation, unusual celestial phenomena will occur which will be capped by our Lord's return.

Our Savior said that when He comes again He will reward EVERY MAN according to what each has done (Matt 16:27; Rev 22:12). For the righteous - those whose names remained in the Book of Life: eternal life and ushered to heaven for the wedding of the Lamb; for the wicked: suffering and death in the 7 last plagues before the 1000-year-reign of Christ with the righteous on earth, and at the end of the millennial reign, they will be resurrected and thrown into the lake of fire - their second death.

The example of the plagues that were poured out on Egypt at the time Moses led the children of Israel out, is an example of the last day events. The time of trouble on all the world, that transpires at the end of time can be likened to the 1st three plagues in Mose's time. The children of Israel shared the brunt of those along with the Egyptians, but were removed from the last seven plagues that fell only on the Egyptians.

Such will be the experience of those who refuse the mark of the beast in the end, as opposed to those who receive the seal of God in their forehead.

[hch]

Rev 15 makes clear that the righteous are already standing on the sea of glass in heaven singing the song of the Lamb when the 7 angels are given the 7 vials still full of the 7 last plagues. They are then commanded in Rev 16:1 to pour the vials of God's wrath upon the wicked on the earth.

That would be true unless the passage in the example  narrates to the saints standing on the sea of glass in heaven singing the song of the Lamb and then the narration pauses to explain events that led up to that scene; events that had been omitted in the flow of the narration. Daniel and John do it all the time. And it is unfortunate that a caveat added to clarify a narration is misunderstood as part of the narration rather than the caveat that it is.

But the Holy Spirit is quite capable of guiding God's people into all truth.

[Samie]

. . .

But the Holy Spirit is quite capable of guiding God's people into all truth.

That perhaps explains why the Holy Spirit leads us to study the Word. And in Revelation, one is cautioned neither to add to nor remove from what are in the book.

Revelation 22:18-19  ¹⁸ For I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: If anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book;  ¹⁹ and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

[B/W Photodude]

Could you please provide a scripture referece for this?  I couldn't find any references for it.

I do not have a Scripture reference. But I do have  quotes from EGW:

Satan Resembles Christ in Every Particular
There is a limit beyond which Satan cannot go, and here he calls deception to his aid and counterfeits the work which he has not power actually to perform. In the last days he will appear in such a manner as to make men believe him to be Christ come the second time into the world. He will indeed transform himself into an angel of light. But while he will bear the appearance of Christ in every particular, so far as mere appearance goes, it will deceive none but those who, like Pharaoh, are seeking to resist the truth.—Testimonies for the Church 5:698 (1889). – {LDE 163.1}
As the crowning act in the great drama of deception, Satan himself will personate Christ. The church has long professed to look to the Saviour’s advent as the consummation of her hopes. Now the great deceiver will make it appear that Christ has come. In different parts of the earth, Satan will manifest himself among men as a majestic being of dazzling brightness, resembling the description of the Son of God given by John in the Revelation. (Revelation 1:13-15). The glory that surrounds him is unsurpassed by anything that mortal eyes have yet beheld. The shout of triumph rings out upon the air: “Christ has come! Christ has come!” – {LDE 163.2}
The people prostrate themselves in adoration before him, while he lifts up his hands and pronounces a blessing upon them, as Christ blessed His disciples when He was upon the earth. His voice is soft and subdued, yet full of melody. In gentle, compassionate tones he presents some of the same gracious, heavenly truths which the Saviour uttered; he heals the diseases of the people, and then, in his assumed character of Christ, he claims to have changed the Sabbath to Sunday, and commands all to hallow the day which he has blessed.—The Great Controversy, 624 (1911). – {LDE 163.3}
Satan Pretends to Answer the Saints’ Prayers
Satan sees that he is about to lose his case. He cannot sweep in the whole world. He makes one last desperate effort to overcome the faithful by deception. He does this in personating Christ. He clothes himself with the garments of royalty which have been accurately described in the vision of John. He has power to do this. He will appear to his deluded followers, the Christian world who received not the love of the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness (transgression of the law), as Christ coming the second time. – {LDE 164.1}
He proclaims himself Christ, and he is believed to be Christ, a beautiful, majestic being clothed with majesty and, with soft voice and pleasant words, with glory unsurpassed by anything their mortal eyes had yet beheld. Then his deceived, deluded followers set up a shout of victory, “Christ has come the second time! Christ has come! He has lifted up His hands just as He did when He was upon the earth, and blessed us.”... – {LDE 164.2}
The saints look on with amazement. Will they also be deceived? Will they worship Satan? Angels of God are about them. A clear, firm, musical voice is heard, “Look up.” – {LDE 164.3}
There was one object before the praying ones—the final and eternal salvation of their souls. This object was before them constantly—that immortal life was promised to those who endure unto the end. Oh, how earnest and fervent had been their desires. The judgment and eternity were in view. Their eyes by faith were fixed on the blazing throne, before which the white-robed ones were to stand. This restrained them from the indulgence of sin.... – {LDE 164.4}
One effort more, and then Satan’s last device is employed. He hears the unceasing cry for Christ to come, for Christ to deliver them. This last strategy is to personate Christ, and make them think their prayers are answered.—Ms 16, 1884. – {LDE 165.1}
How the Counterfeit Differs From the Genuine
Satan is not permitted to counterfeit the manner of Christ’s advent.—The Great Controversy, 625 (1911). – {LDE 165.2}
Satan ... will come personating Jesus Christ, working mighty miracles; and men will fall down and worship him as Jesus Christ. We shall be commanded to worship this being, whom the world will glorify as Christ. What shall we do? Tell them that Christ has warned us against just such a foe, who is man’s worst enemy, yet who claims to be God, and that when Christ shall make His appearance it will be with power and great glory, accompanied by ten thousand times ten thousand angels and thousands of thousands, and that when He shall come we shall know His voice.—The S.D.A. Bible Commentary 6:1106 (1888). – {LDE 165.3}
Satan is striving to gain every advantage.... Disguised as an angel of light, he will walk the earth as a wonder-worker. In beautiful language he will present lofty sentiments; good words will be spoken by him and good deeds performed. Christ will be personified. But on one point there will be a marked distinction—Satan will turn the people from the law of God. Notwithstanding this, so well will he counterfeit righteousness that, if it were possible, he would deceive the very elect. Crowned heads, presidents, rulers in high places, will bow to his false theories.—Fundamentals of Christian Education, 471, 472 (1897). – {LDE 166.1}

Given the nature of the personation of Christ by Satan, I see little to suggest that all followers of Sunday Christians, believers in Judaism, and the followers of Islam, well, the whole world will be rapidly converted to the message of this "angel of light." The status of the Temple is unknown to me at this time. Not sure that it has ever been addressed in prophecy thru the bible or EGW.

 

[BobRyan]

Matt 24 "Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days... He will send forth His angels and they will gather His elect" -- it happens after the tribulation not before or during

2 Thess 2 "regarding our gathering together to Him... that day will NOT happen until after" the falling away AND the man of sin is reveal

Rev 19 is AFTER the Rev 16 plagues -- not before.

Rev 20 the FIRST resurrection is AFTER the Rev 16 last plagues - not before. ANd the "dead in Christ rise FIRST" 1Thess 4 - at the FIRST resurrection.

 

The Bible is clear on this point.

Edited August 1, 2015 by BobRyan

[Samie]

If the dead in Christ rise FIRST, then, those who are NOT in Christ rise NEXT. If, at the Second Coming, the dead in Christ rise FIRST, then, those who are NOT in Christ rise NEXT also at the Second Coming.  This is why Revelation tells us all eyes will see Him come in the clouds, even those Roman soldiers who pierced Him.  With all people born into this world present at the Second Coming, EVERY MAN will be present to receive his own reward according to what each has done, as our Lord Himself said. Matt 16:27; Rev 22:12.

[8thdaypriest]

The example of the plagues that were poured out on Egypt at the time Moses led the children of Israel out, is an example of the last day events. The time of trouble on all the world, that transpires at the end of time can be likened to the 1st three plagues in Mose's time. The children of Israel shared the brunt of those along with the Egyptians, but were removed from the last seven plagues that fell only on the Egyptians.

Such will be the experience of those who refuse the mark of the beast in the end, as opposed to those who receive the seal of God in their forehead.

I like that LHC.  The last 7 plagues fall only on the wicked. 

[8thdaypriest]

 

Given the nature of the personation of Christ by Satan, I see little to suggest that all followers of Sunday Christians, believers in Judaism, and the followers of Islam, well, the whole world will be rapidly converted to the message of this "angel of light." The status of the Temple is unknown to me at this time. Not sure that it has ever been addressed in prophecy thru the bible or EGW.

 

NKJ  2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. (2Th 2:3 NKJ)

There's the TEMPLE.  And if you know that the ONLY person allowed to "sit" within the Temple, was the anointed Son of David - the King, then you also know who this "man of sin" is pretending to be. 

[Samie]

The 7 plagues poured out upon the earth fall only on the wicked. It cannot affect the righteous who are already in the sea of glass in heaven. Rev 15:1 - 16:1.

[8thdaypriest]

Matt 24 "Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days... He will send forth His angels and they will gather His elect" -- it happens after the tribulation not before or during

2 Thess 2 "regarding our gathering together to Him... that day will NOT happen until after" the falling away AND the man of sin is reveal

Rev 19 is AFTER the Rev 16 plagues -- not before.

Rev 20 the FIRST resurrection is AFTER the Rev 16 last plagues - not before. ANd the "dead in Christ rise FIRST" 1Thess 4 - at the FIRST resurrection.

 

The Bible is clear on this point.

The "tribulation of those days" is speaking of the 1260 days of persecution during which the Trumpet warning judgments will take place. 

I agree that the "man of sin" will "sit in the Temple" BEFORE the saints are gathered to Heaven. 

Revelation 19, is Heaven's exultation over the fall of Babylon.  Rev 18:8, speaking of the fall of the Harlot, says "Therefore her plagues will come in one day."  What DAY would that be?   It will be the DAY that Jesus returns to execute judgment.  The 7 last wrath plagues are poured out ON THE DAY that Jesus returns, just as He rescues His own.  Lot was rescued by angels moments before the fireballs hit Sodom.  Lot's wife represents those who WERE in covenant, but their hearts do not fully belong to Christ. 

Revelation 1-3 describes Christ casting Satan into the "bottomless pit".  I believe Satan is the scapegoat.  The scapegoat is banished to the "uninhabited place" ON THE DAY OF ATONEMENT.   Which is just another reason why I believe that Christ will return ON the Day of Atonement (at the appointed time) to execute judgment upon those who have broken covenant without repentance, whose names are therefore "blotted out" from the Book of Life.  They will be "cut off" - ON THAT DAY. 

Unlike Samie, I do NOT believe those who are judged and executed at the Second Coming, will be raised AGAIN to execute them AGAIN.  Once is enough!!   I do not want to get off-subject here.  I just wanted to state what I believe, because Samie stated his belief. 

[8thdaypriest]

If the dead in Christ rise FIRST, then, those who are NOT in Christ rise NEXT. If, at the Second Coming, the dead in Christ rise FIRST, then, those who are NOT in Christ rise NEXT also at the Second Coming.  This is why Revelation tells us all eyes will see Him come in the clouds, even those Roman soldiers who pierced Him.  With all people born into this world present at the Second Coming, EVERY MAN will be present to receive his own reward according to what each has done, as our Lord Himself said. Matt 16:27; Rev 22:12.

I believe Paul is saying that the righteous "dead" will be caught up to the heavens to meet Christ on that DAY, before those who are still living when Christ returns.  Verses 16-17 do not mention the resurrection of the wicked. 

1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord (KJV).

Samie,

If you want to discuss the resurrection at the SC, and whether all the wicked are resurrected at that time - please, start a new thread.  We're looking for evidence concerning whether the redeemed will still be on this earth DURING the wrath plagues (the 7 vials).  Thanks much.

[Samie]

Unlike Samie, I do NOT believe those who are judged and executed at the Second Coming, will be raised AGAIN to execute them AGAIN.  Once is enough!!   I do not want to get off-subject here.  I just wanted to state what I believe, because Samie stated his belief. 

I simply believe that since there is second death for the wicked, there must be first death for them, too. The first death mentioned in Rev 19:21, occurs at the Battle of Armageddon, the final phase of the 7 plagues; the second death is the one mentioned in Rev 20:14, 15.

[8thdaypriest]

There is an inspired quote from EGW that says it will not happen. That is good enough for me.

Then look no further.  Drop out of this thread.  We are looking for arguments based in Scripture.  

I would like to see that quote, just for my information.  Is that the one where she said that Old Jerusalem will never be built up? 

PS:  You do realize that the only things necessary to restart the morning/evening sacrifices on the Mount, are 1.  possession of the Temple Mount  2. Red Heifer (to cleanse the spot) and  3.  Aaronic priest.    When Zerubbabel led the returning captives from Babylon, they began the sacrifices on the Mount, LONG BEFORE they had a rebuilt Temple, or even a Tabernacle.

They HAVE #2 and #3 (using DNA).  They just need #1.  For that, there will need to be a war defeating Muslim forces.  Personally, I believe that will be the goat of Daniel Cpt 8, which will crush the ram with 2 horns (Shia and Sunni).  That prophecy WAS for "the time of the END". 

[8thdaypriest]

I simply believe that since there is second death for the wicked, there must be first death for them, too. The first death mentioned in Rev 19:21, occurs at the Battle of Armageddon, the final phase of the 7 plagues; the second death is the one mentioned in Rev 20:14, 15.

Samie, 

If I answer with what I believe, you will come back with what you believe, and on, and on, and on, and on.   Go start another thread concerning the nature of the "second death" !!! 

[B/W Photodude]

NKJ  2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. (2Th 2:3 NKJ)

There's the TEMPLE.  And if you know that the ONLY person allowed to "sit" within the Temple, was the anointed Son of David - the King, then you also know who this "man of sin" is pretending to be. 

I think that if the impersonator of Jesus was to sit on the throne of Saint Peter in the Vatican, this verse will have been fulfilled. 

[8thdaypriest]

I would guess when that happens, all three will keep Sunday. It has been prophesied that the antiChrist imitating Jesus would promise peace when everyone keeps Sunday.

It is quite feasible that the Antichrist power would declare the Temple a "House of prayer for all peoples".  He would internationalize the Temple. 

[8thdaypriest]

I remember a few things from Great Controversy. 

"A single angel destroyed all the first-born of the Egyptians and filled the land with mourning.  When David offended against God by numbering the people, one angel caused that terrible destruction by which his sin was punished.  The same destructive power exercised by holy angels when God commands, will be exercised by evil angels when He permits.  There are forces now ready and only waiting the divine permission, to spread desolation everywhere." GC pg 614

Mrs. White says that evil angels cause the last plagues, before the deliverance of the redeemed. 

On page 628, she says, "These plagues are not universal, or the inhabitants of the earth would be wholly cut off.  Yet they will be the most awful scourges that have ever been known to mortals." 

This statement is almost enough to make me believe she was inspired.  She "saw" the Trumpet plagues.  How do I know that? 

Because the trumpets are NOT universal.  They effect 1/3, 1/3, 1/3. 

I said in another post, that I believe the TRUMPETS are Satan's plagues, in an effort to deceive people into believing that He is Christ come.   Every man on the street has heard of the 7 last plagues.  So Satan will supply them. 

The VIAL plagues ARE UNIVERSAL !!!  They will completely destroy the earth and wipe out all life.  

Second Bowl:  Every living thing in the sea dies (Rev. 16:3).  

    If the ocean no longer supports life, there is no food chain.  
    There is also little oxygen, because sea vegetation produces 75% of our oxygen.

Third Bowl:  All of the rivers and all of the springs of water become like blood.
    They will not support life (Rev. 16:4).

Fifth Bowl:  Darkness will cover the “kingdom of the beast” (Rev. 16:10).  

    The beast power rules the entire earth - therefore this plague of darkness will be universal. 

Seventh Bowl: “Every island fled away and the mountains were not found."  "every mountain and island was moved out of its place".  THAT's UNIVERSAL !

An earthquake with the power to break apart every known fault over the face of the entire earth.  I would imagine several super volcano's will also erupt.  If the “sky” is parted, or “rolled up like a scroll,” (Rev. 6:14, Isa. 34:4) that suggests our atmosphere may be disrupted.  If the oceans are vaporized into space, that would leave the planet dry and lifeless.

With no clean air, no water, no food, severe heat then darkness, and then an asteroid shower, while the surface of the earth is broken up - do you really think there could be any human life left on this planet!? NO!!!