Will the wicked be resurrected at the Second Coming?

[Samie]

Infants and young children have NOT "done good".  They wouldn't know what "good" is. 

If God speaks to Israel, and says "let all come to the mountain" - then the "all" means "all" Israelites - NOT all mankind.  I believe Jesus was speaking to Jews/Israelites in the context of John 5:28-29.  He would be saying that "all" - meaning everyone who had ever entered into covenant - will be raised to face the LORD for judgment, on THAT DAY.  At that time.  That would FIT with ancient Day of Atonement types.  The scapegoat was banished to the pit - on THAT DAY, carrying the sins of believing humble Israel. 

And no - Jews do NOT believe that the Day of Atonement is judgment day for "all" mankind.  They believe only those who have entered into covenant with Yahweh are "judged" on that day.

I believe that all those who had knowledge of Yahweh and His Law, will be judged on that Day.  That certainly does NOT include young children.

Deduced from your posts, there will be 4 groups of dead people when our Lord returns:

1.      those who have done good

2.      those who have done evil

3.      those who sinned ignorantly

4.      the little children who cannot do good nor evil

You believe that only the first two groups will be resurrected. Hence you believe the phrase “all in the graves” (John 5:28) refer to only the first two groups. I respect your position. 

 

For me, I believe, that when the Lord said  all in the graves will hear His voice, He simply means what He said. All - and that includes the 4 groups, will hear.

[8thdaypriest]

As you said, all the "rest of the dead" resurrected in the 8th millennium have not yet accepted Christ. That includes the little children in the holy mountain of God in the earth restored. If the little children are allowed in the holy mountain of God without having accepted Christ, then all the "rest of dead" will be in the holy mountain of God?

Yes, they will be invited to come.   Now - these are NOT those who knowingly rebelled on during the first 6000 years.  These are those who lived and died in ignorance. 

    Isaiah 2:1-4 “And it shall come to pass in the latter days, that the mountain of Jehovah's house shall be established on the top of the mountains [above all kingdoms], and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many peoples shall go and say, ‘Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths:’ for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of Jehovah from Jerusalem. And he will judge between the nations, and will decide concerning many peoples; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning-hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.” (ASV)

Isa 2:1-4 is AFTER the "mountain of Jehovah's house" is established over all other kingdoms.  This is definitely Messiah's kingdom.  I believe this will take place during the 8th millennium.  Until "the 8th day" the priesthood is not yet ready.

Zechariah 14:16-21  “And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem [the redeemed ] shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. [We will be keeping the Feasts!] And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth [raised at The 8th Day] do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, on them there will be no rain.  If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain [Holy Spirit]; they shall receive the plague with which the LORD strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.  This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.”

Here we have the redeemed - going up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles at Jerusalem.  And all the families of the earth are invited!! 

In all my years of attendance at the Adventist church, I NEVER heard an explanation of this passage. 

Here's the link to the study at my website titled "The 8th Day, Messiah Reigns":  http://www.prophecyviewpoint.com/htdocs/21-The 8th Day.pdf

There are lots and lots of Scriptures quoted in this study.

Rachel Cory, prophecyviewpoint.com

[8thdaypriest]

 

Deduced from your posts, there will be 4 groups of dead people when our Lord returns:

1.      those who have done good

2.      those who have done evil

3.      those who sinned ignorantly

4.      the little children who cannot do good nor evil

You believe that only the first two groups will be resurrected. Hence you believe the phrase “all in the graves” (John 5:28) refer to only the first two groups. I respect your position. 

 

For me, I believe, that when the Lord said  all in the graves will hear His voice, He simply means what He said. All - and that includes the 4 groups, will hear.

I respect your position also.  We can agree to disagree.

[8thdaypriest]

 

This tells me all cases will be settled before Jesus returns, not just the intellectually capable. Since Jesus (God the Father) will be fair to all those who didn't have a chance to be proven by personal choice before Jesus arrives, and

being omniscient, He knows whether upon resurrection, how they will respond

, those that would respond negatively will be allowed to stay in sleep beyond eternity while those He knows will give a positive response to His presence upon resurrection, will receive the life they would appreciate, as any newly created creature would naturally expect from a beneficent Creator.

 

I believe the Bible says that we will be judged by our works - the works that we DID while alive - NOT the works that we would have done, if we had lived longer.  God knows the future - true.  But what MIGHT have been is NOT the future. 

I once had a man tell me that God can have a relationship with a 4 celled embryo, and either save or condemn that "person" based upon what he would have done.  So how are such works recorded in the heavenly books - "Works that would have been" ?    How could the redeemed judge an infant with only "might have been" sins?  Judging a person, based upon what might have been, really would not prove the justice of God - would it? 

That is why I believe our God will give EVERY person enough time, and enough information upon which to base a CHOICE.  For those who died in childhood, or died in ignorance, that requires a resurrection, and the teaching and governance of the priesthood, under Christ.

 

[8thdaypriest]

1000 years have NOT yet passed from resurrection at the Second Coming to the appearance of the little children in the holy mountain of God.  After having been ushered to heaven for the wedding of the Lamb, Rev 19 tells of the righteous coming down to earth with Christ for the battle of Armageddon - the final phase of the 7 plagues - where all wicked will be slain. Satan will be imprisoned and the1000 years starts. We will be camping with Christ here on earth for 1000 years. The wicked, having been slain before the start of the 1000 years - their first death, will be resurrected at the end of the 1000 years to be thrown into the lake of fire - their second death.

Samie,  I was not clear on your beliefs concerning the 7th millennium. 

You believe that the redeemed do not go to the New Jersualem, which Jesus has prepared for them? 

You believe the redeemed will come down to earth - following Christ - to fight the Battle of Armageddon.  Right? 

And then the redeemed will take up residence on this earth DURING the 7th millennium.  Is that right?  

(So - where is Satan?  You do not believe this earth "without form and void" (Jer 4:23) becomes the "bottomless pit" ?  Just as an aside, the Hebrew translated "bottomless pit" in Revelation, uses the same words that are translated "without form and void".)

I think this is the passage you are referring to:

Revelation 19:11 "Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses." (NKJ)

NOTE:  Jews from ancient times, believed that the Messiah would come riding a white horse.  Which was just another reason why they could not accept Jesus.  Maybe John is just trying to tell his readers that this is the Messiah. 

And you Samie, believe the "armies in heaven" are redeemed people, not angels - that these are "the saints", now with immortal bodies.  (I guess the children don't participate in this Battle.) 

Does the fact they are "clothed in fine linen, white and clean" mean these MUST be people? 

Of course, this passage from Rev 19:11-20:3 COULD just be a recap, telling how the "army" of the faithful (under Christ) will ultimately defeat Satan and his Beast, and his "harlot".  Under the first "seal" a conqueror rides forth on the white horse.  Is this also Christ, leading his "army" of the faithful?

I do not have a problem with the redeemed, being allowed to see the final defeat of the Beast power.  Like victims or their families being allowed to watch an execution.  I believe they have that right.  But that does not mean the redeemed will remain on this earth for the 1000 years of the 7th millennium. 

The New Jerusalem is the "place" that Jesus has prepared for us.  Why not remain there?  Why remain on a wasted and desolate earth?  the New Jerusalem does not descend to earth until AFTER the Gog/Magog Battle, and that Battle takes place AFTER the 7th millennium. 

The redeemed from the Second Coming will become "priests of God and of Christ".  Anciently - Aaron and his sons were to remain within the Temple, during the 7 days of their consecration.  They were not to come outside of the Temple UNTIL "the 8th day".  They did not begin to minister as priests, UNTIL the 8th day.   (See Leviticus Cpt 8 and 9)  "With the LORD a thousand years is as a day."  Right?  So - the redeemed priests cannot begin their ministry - UNTIL the 8th millennium. 

If "heaven itself" is "the true tabernacle" - then the redeemed would remain within "heaven itself" until their consecration is complete. 

 

Edited August 3, 2015 by 8thdaypriest

[Samie]

 Double post.  Sorry.

[Samie]

Yes, they will be invited to come.   Now - these are NOT those who knowingly rebelled on during the first 6000 years.  These are those who lived and died in ignorance. 

    Isaiah 2:1-4 “And it shall come to pass in the latter days, that the mountain of Jehovah's house shall be established on the top of the mountains [above all kingdoms], and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many peoples shall go and say, ‘Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths:’ for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of Jehovah from Jerusalem. And he will judge between the nations, and will decide concerning many peoples; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning-hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.” (ASV)

Isa 2:1-4 is AFTER the "mountain of Jehovah's house" is established over all other kingdoms.  This is definitely Messiah's kingdom.  I believe this will take place during the 8th millennium.  Until "the 8th day" the priesthood is not yet ready.

You said in an earlier post that little children among those resurrected at the 8th millennium will be brought to Jerusalem, the holy city of God, and all the rest will be invited.  Rev 21:27 EXPLICITLY says that only those whose names are in the Book of Life will be allowed to enter the holy city. Do you believe that the little children brought to the holy city have their names in the Book of Life?  If No, then why are those children in the holy city?  Those invited to the holy city, do you believe their names are written in the Book of Life? If No, then why will they be invited to the holy city when they are not allowed there?  Are you suggesting that those who invited them are not aware of Rev 21:27?

You said among the rest of dead there will be those who will rebel and become the army of Gog / Magog. Armies are for battles but Isa 2:4 which you said takes place during the 8th millennium says "nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more".  Against whom will the Gog/Magog army make war?

 

[Samie]

Hi Rachel;

Here's how I understand the sequence of events at the Second Coming and beyond (Scripture references are available upon request):

1.      Jesus comes in the clouds of heaven.

2.      Righteous are resurrected first.

3.      Wicked are resurrected next.

4.      Righteous are ushered to heaven for the wedding of the Lamb.

5.      The 7 last plagues are poured out upon the wicked on earth.

6.      The wedding of the Lamb takes place in heaven.

7.      The newly weds – the Bride and the Groom – with the armies of heaven come down to earth for the battle of Armageddon.  Jesus this time rides a white horse, not clouds.

8.      The beast and his false prophet will be captured and thrown alive into the lake of fire.

9.      All the wicked will be slain, their first death.

10.  Satan will be captured and imprisoned.

11.  Fresh from victory at the battle of Armageddon, the saints with Christ will camp on this earth for 1000 years and will build their beloved city.

12.  At the end of 1000 years, Satan will be loosed, the wicked will be resurrected, and under the command of Satan, will lay siege to the camp of the saints and the beloved city.

13.  Fire rains down from heaven, and Satan with all the wicked – those whose names are not found written in the Book of Life will be thrown into the lake of fire – the second death.

14.  God creates a new heaven and new earth; the first heaven and the first earth have passed away

15.  The Holy City – the New Jerusalem – will come down from God in heaven to the new earth with the saints.

16.  Saints will reign forever and ever.

[brotherly love]

Yes, they will be invited to come.   Now - these are NOT those who knowingly rebelled on during the first 6000 years.  These are those who lived and died in ignorance. 

    Isaiah 2:1-4 “And it shall come to pass in the latter days, that the mountain of Jehovah's house shall be established on the top of the mountains [above all kingdoms], and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many peoples shall go and say, ‘Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths:’ for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of Jehovah from Jerusalem. And he will judge between the nations, and will decide concerning many peoples; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning-hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.” (ASV)

Isa 2:1-4 is AFTER the "mountain of Jehovah's house" is established over all other kingdoms.  This is definitely Messiah's kingdom.  I believe this will take place during the 8th millennium.  Until "the 8th day" the priesthood is not yet ready.

Zechariah 14:16-21  “And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem [the redeemed ] shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. [We will be keeping the Feasts!] And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth [raised at The 8th Day] do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, on them there will be no rain.  If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain [Holy Spirit]; they shall receive the plague with which the LORD strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.  This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.”

Here we have the redeemed - going up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles at Jerusalem.  And all the families of the earth are invited!! 

In all my years of attendance at the Adventist church, I NEVER heard an explanation of this passage. 

Here's the link to the study at my website titled "The 8th Day, Messiah Reigns":  http://www.prophecyviewpoint.com/htdocs/21-The 8th Day.pdf

There are lots and lots of Scriptures quoted in this study.

Rachel Cory, prophecyviewpoint.com

There are 2 points that come quickly to my mind when I read your posts.

Firstly: you base your paradigm on an 8th day, or an 8th milllenium. This is on shaky ground and is highly subjective.

Secondly: In all sincerity, you have made the same mistake as pretrib adherents-you base your paradigm on the difficult verses and not the clear. This is not a solid foundation. The clear need to interpret the unclear. This is why you will deny the clear verses that we are in the Messianic kingdom, and use the unclear or metaphoric verses.

I hope you can take a step back and recognize this?

[JoeMo]

There are 2 points that come quickly to my mind when I read your posts.

Firstly: you base your paradigm on an 8th day, or an 8th milllenium. This is on shaky ground and is highly subjective.

Secondly: In all sincerity, you have made the same mistake as pretrib adherents-you base your paradigm on the difficult verses and not the clear. This is not a solid foundation. The clear need to interpret the unclear. This is why you will deny the clear verses that we are in the Messianic kingdom, and use the unclear or metaphoric verses.

I hope you can take a step back and recognize this?

I'm a big fan of Rachel's 8th-day (millennium) proposition.  I think you are raising my one reservation on it.  Part of Rachel's proposition includes a heavenly millennium (earth is uninhabited and uninhabitable), which tends to pull Kingdom verses into the 8th millennium.  I feel strongly both ways about a heavenly vs. earthly millennium; leaning slightly towards an earthly millennium.  If the earthly millennium is correct, the verses Rachel uses could refer to Kingdom events in the 7th millennium.

Many charismatics tend to pull these verses into the present age (pre- SC); claiming that it is not until the Church gains the victory over the ways of the world (entertainment, art music, government, education, media, etc) that Christ will come.  I can't bring myself to even consider this option.

At any rate, I agree with her that the elect will be taken to heaven at the SC, the wicked (having made an informed decision to rebel against God's authority) will be destroyed at the SC; and "the rest of the dead" (the ignorant and those deceived by "religion") will be raised and judged by the choices they make at the beginning of the 8th Millennium after being presented with accurate information on which to make a choice.

[brotherly love]

I'm a big fan of Rachel's 8th-day (millennium) proposition.  I think you are raising my one reservation on it.  Part of Rachel's proposition includes a heavenly millennium (earth is uninhabited and uninhabitable), which tends to pull Kingdom verses into the 8th millennium.  I feel strongly both ways about a heavenly vs. earthly millennium; leaning slightly towards an earthly millennium.  If the earthly millennium is correct, the verses Rachel uses could refer to Kingdom events in the 7th millennium.

Many charismatics tend to pull these verses into the present age (pre- SC); claiming that it is not until the Church gains the victory over the ways of the world (entertainment, art music, government, education, media, etc) that Christ will come.  I can't bring myself to even consider this option.

At any rate, I agree with her that the elect will be taken to heaven at the SC, the wicked (having made an informed decision to rebel against God's authority) will be destroyed at the SC; and "the rest of the dead" (the ignorant and those deceived by "religion") will be raised and judged by the choices they make at the beginning of the 8th Millennium after being presented with accurate information on which to make a choice.

I believe that we are now in the kingdom of Christ-because the Bible explicitly says so. Most do not believe it because they resort to the same problem as why the Jews rejected Christ-they were looking for an earthly kingdom and earthly power that comes with it. Jesus did not show this example of a kingdom or of secular power. He refuted it. Real power comes from above, and the power of servitude-the meek will inherit the earth. God's ways are not our ways. Christ's birth, life and shameful death give us this example, of which victory and life emerge from.

Jesus Christ will come when He decides, the church does not decide

The word thousand is highly figurative in the bible

but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

-does this love stop at a thousand and one generations?

May the Lord, the God of your ancestors, increase you a thousand times and bless you as he has promised!

-Is this only a thousand times? Is one thousand and one a curse, or is 999 a curse

for every animal of the forest is mine, and the cattle on a thousand hills.

Does God's sovereign control stop at 1001 hills?

It is no different with the 1000 years, it must make a person ponder to a literal thousand years. People in this semi ripened golden age would be able to just watch their calenders and stop watches for the second coming

 

To prop up a resurrection with different classes of people who are ignorant has been done before. This is the wellspring that created the apologetic of purgatory to answer this same question.

Hebrews 9:27 answers this question

Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment,

Jesus gave the answer to Nicodemus. It is not information that saves, but rejecting or desiring the light. Everyone at every time has been given the choice of to reject or desire the light of God. We have to trust that this is true and not make up pet doctrines that satisfy us.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 3, 2015 by brotherly love

[8thdaypriest]

 

brother love,

I'm just not at all sure how to answer a post like this.  I have studied long and hard for some 37 years, to arrive at my conclusions.  To simply dismiss them as "on shaky ground", is disrespectful - at best. 
 

[8thdaypriest]

You said in an earlier post that little children among those resurrected at the 8th millennium will be brought to Jerusalem, the holy city of God, and all the rest will be invited.  Rev 21:27 EXPLICITLY says that only those whose names are in the Book of Life will be allowed to enter the holy city. Do you believe that the little children brought to the holy city have their names in the Book of Life?  If No, then why are those children in the holy city?  Those invited to the holy city, do you believe their names are written in the Book of Life? If No, then why will they be invited to the holy city when they are not allowed there?  Are you suggesting that those who invited them are not aware of Rev 21:27?

You said among the rest of dead there will be those who will rebel and become the army of Gog / Magog. Armies are for battles but Isa 2:4 which you said takes place during the 8th millennium says "nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more".  Against whom will the Gog/Magog army make war?

 

Samie,

The New Jerusalem does not descend from heaven UNTIL AFTER the Gog/Magog Battle - not until all traces of rebellion are gone.  The "City" to which children will be brought, and all the "nations" will be invited, will be a rebuilt Jerusalem with Ezekiel's Temple - NOT the New Jerusalem. 

I agree with you, that ONLY those whose names are in the Book of Life, can enter the New Jerusalem. 

I believe that the redeemed will "rebuild the waste places" and restore what was broken down.  They will live in the territory promised to Abraham.  They will "plant vineyards and eat the fruit of them".  AND they will build Ezekiel's Temple.  That Temple will be the focus of worship, for those who need to learn "the ways of the LORD".  That Temple will be the House of the LORD, during the 8th Day Kingdom of Messiah - ruling over the nations (raised as the rest of the dead). 

Concerning Isa 2:4  :  This is how I see it.  I believe that "the nations" raised after the 7th millennium, will be those who lived and died in ignorance.  When they are raised, they will be governed and taught by the "priests of God and of Christ" (the redeemed from the Second Coming).  Those who go up to "the House of the LORD" to learn His ways, will NOT learn war any more.  But Satan was released, and he will go out, attempting to deceive.  Gradually, a spirit of rebellion will take root, among those who have refused to learn the ways of the LORD.  

 Ezekiel 37:21 "Then say to them,`Thus says the Lord GOD: [THE RETURN]  "Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; 22 "and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and [JESUS REIGNS]  one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again. 23 "They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. Then they shall be My people, and I will be their God. 24 "David My servant shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd; they shall also walk in My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them. 25 "Then they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Jacob My servant, where your fathers dwelt; and they shall dwell there, they, their children, and their children's children, forever; and My servant David shall be their prince forever. 26 "Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them, and it shall be an everlasting covenant with them; I will establish them and multiply them, and I will set My sanctuary in their midst forevermore. 27 [THE TEMPLE] "My tabernacle also shall be with them; indeed I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 28 "The nations also will know that I, the LORD, sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forevermore."'"

THEN THE GOG/MAGOG BATTLE: 

[Spoken to Gog - about Israel]  "In the latter years you will come into the land of those brought back from the sword and gathered from many people on the mountains of Israel, which had long been desolate (for 1000 years);  They were brought out of the nations, and now all of them dwell safely."   

Gog and his army attack Israel and specifically Jerusalem.  The LORD defends His own, and destroys Gog and army.  THEN:  Most interesting - they gather the bones for 7 months, and bury them at a special city designated for that purpose. 

Upon first reading the account in Ezekiel, you would THINK this was a last days attack by Islamic forces, against the present nation of Israel.  The only way we know that this is AFTER the 7th millennium, is because Revelation 20 places it there.  And the citizens of present day Israel are mostly secular (some 85%) so why would the LORD protect them? 

[brotherly love]

brother love,

I'm just not at all sure how to answer a post like this.  I have studied long and hard for some 37 years, to arrive at my conclusions.  To simply dismiss them as "on shaky ground", is disrespectful - at best. 
 

I dont men to be disrespectful, sorry if you took it this way. It is an observation, not disrespectful. 37 years does not justify a wrong or right paradigm, many people have studied the bible longer and come to the wrong conclusions on some topics

 

 

[pnattmbtc]

 In all sincerity, you have made the same mistake as pretrib adherents-you base your paradigm on the difficult verses and not the clear. This is not a solid foundation. The clear need to interpret the unclear. This is why you will deny the clear verses that we are in the Messianic kingdom, and use the unclear or metaphoric verses.

I think this is a good observation.  I'm not speaking specifically about the issue under discussion here, but I see this same thing (basing one's theological on difficult verses) happening a lot. 

[Samie]

Back to topic, if the wicked are not resurrected at the Second Coming, then the Roman soldiers who pierced Jesus' side and who the Bible says will see Him at the Second Coming are NOT wicked but righteous. 

^NKJ Revelation 1:7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him.

I think the adherents of no-wicked-resurrected-at-the second-coming have to explain how those Roman soldiers are righteous OR where a special resurrection is hinted of in the Bible.  The following verses seem to me as saying that there will be a resurrection where both righteous and wicked are raised:

^NKJ John 5:28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice

 

^NKJ Acts 24:15 "I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept, that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.

If this resurrection does not occur at the Second Coming, then when?

[brotherly love]

Back to topic, if the wicked are not resurrected at the Second Coming, then the Roman soldiers who pierced Jesus' side and who the Bible says will see Him at the Second Coming are NOT wicked but righteous. 

^NKJ Revelation 1:7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him.

I think the adherents of no-wicked-resurrected-at-the second-coming have to explain how those Roman soldiers are righteous OR where a special resurrection is hinted of in the Bible.  The following verses seem to me as saying that there will be a resurrection where both righteous and wicked are raised:

^NKJ John 5:28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice

 

^NKJ Acts 24:15 "I have hope in God, which they themselves also accept, that there will be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust.

If this resurrection does not occur at the Second Coming, then when?

This is the clue Samie, some may then say this is a special resurrection of roman soldiers, but this is not really credible. Some will stick to their guns and come up with these scenarios.

Read Rev 1:7, the reference is in the Old Testament, and it is not the second coming, and it is not world wide. It is about God coming in judgment just like Babylon, Ninevah, Edom, Davids enemies and others...

[JoeMo]

I believe that we are now in the kingdom of Christ-because the Bible explicitly says so. Most do not believe it because they resort to the same problem as why the Jews rejected Christ-they were looking for an earthly kingdom and earthly power that comes with it. Jesus did not show this example of a kingdom or of secular power. He refuted it. Real power comes from above, and the power of servitude-the meek will inherit the earth. God's ways are not our ways. Christ's birth, life and shameful death give us this example, of which victory and life emerge from.

I've been thinking about this statement.  I must say that it is very charismatic in nature (no offense - in fact; I kind of agree).  Jesus said 2,000 years ago that the Kingdom of God is at hand.  The apostolic church took that and ran with it.  They continued the streak of miraculous healings, deliverances, and spiritual impartations started by Christ.  Somehow, over the years, the church has decided that we no longer need the power of God and His Spirit (i.e., signs and wonders) to run our church.  Until the Church grasps the grace and power truly available to it (if we would just ask), the Kingdom of God will be limited to the spiritual realm, with only sporadic manifestations in the physical realm.   When we as believers choose to take hold of it and fulfill Jesus' prayer that the Father's "will be done on earth as it is in heaven", we will pull the Kingdom into the physical realm.  We're gonna need that power soon; and God promises to pour it out on us without measure in these, the latter days.

[brotherly love]

I've been thinking about this statement.  I must say that it is very charismatic in nature (no offense - in fact; I kind of agree).  Jesus said 2,000 years ago that the Kingdom of God is at hand.  The apostolic church took that and ran with it.  They continued the streak of miraculous healings, deliverances, and spiritual impartations started by Christ.  Somehow, over the years, the church has decided that we no longer need the power of God and His Spirit (i.e., signs and wonders) to run our church.  Until the Church grasps the grace and power truly available to it (if we would just ask), the Kingdom of God will be limited to the spiritual realm, with only sporadic manifestations in the physical realm.   When we as believers choose to take hold of it and fulfill Jesus' prayer that the Father's "will be done on earth as it is in heaven", we will pull the Kingdom into the physical realm.  We're gonna need that power soon; and God promises to pour it out on us without measure in these, the latter days.

I agree, even if we leave out the charasmatic, there are laws to follow, and a King with a kingdom sets up laws, or it is not a kingdom. There are many verses that clearly state that we are in the Messianic Kingdom. We are waiting for consummation, not institution. End times scenarios will trample this reality.

Where we would maybe disagree is that the outpouring occurs in the end times. The outpouring occured with Pentecost. Peter directly quotes this as it happened in Acts 2 as a fulfillment of Joel 2. This is not my personal opinion, but a fact.

Take careful notice that part of this fullfilment by Peter of Joel 2  includes the commotions of the heavens and earth. The sun going black and all that...

This reference is not the end of the world, it is covenant-judgment language used by the prophets many times in the past-it is embedded in the Law of Moses. It points to final consummation, but is used in the temporal sense of the Law of Moses.

The speaking of tongues in this instance in Acts 2 (not exhaustive) points to the coming judgment on Jerusalem. The New Testament again quotes this from the Law of Moses.

The gift of tongues was a sign for unbelievers, and also as a sign for Israel and judgment

1 Corinthians 14:21-22

²¹ In the Law it is written:

“With other tongues
    and through the lips of foreigners
I will speak to this people,
    but even then they will not listen to me,
says the Lord.”^[a]

²² Tongues, then, are a sign, not for believers but for unbelievers; prophecy, however, is not for unbelievers but for believers.

This is spoken by the prophet Isaiah to Israel, Assyria would be their teacher

Isaiah 28:11-12

Very well then, with foreign lips and strange tongues
    God will speak to this people,
¹² to whom he said,
    “This is the resting place, let the weary rest”;
and, “This is the place of repose”—
    but they would not listen.

Both of these examples are from the Law of Moses. Paul in 1 Corinthians 14:21 says "In the Law it is written"

This is a quote from Deuteronomy 28:49

The Lord will bring a nation against you from far away, from the ends of the earth, like an eagle swooping down, a nation whose language you will not understand,

These are not my personal opinions, but quotations used by inspired apostles who laid the foundations of the church. Pentecost happened, and a generation ;later Israel was destroyed for disobedience. This was foretold by the prophets, and claimed by the New Testament. The "end" does not mean the "end of the world" in every case it is written, in this case it was the destruction of the covenant of the kingdom of Israel, and the kingdom was given to others, it went viral and worldwide

 

 

 

[8thdaypriest]

IN WHAT SENSE - HAS "THE KINGDOM COME"? 

Why pray, "Thy kingdom come" - if it HAS ALREADY come????  It can be understood in ancient marriage custom. 

Our "marriage" to Christ - took place.  The "marriage feast" and consummation, HAS NOT YET taken place. 

    2 Corinthians 11:2 [Paul] “For I am jealous for you with godly jealousy. For I have betrothed you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.”

    Ephesians 5:23  “For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body.”

    The word translated “church” is the word for “congregation” as used through the Torah to describe the entire camp of Israel.  

    Isaiah 54:5 “For your Maker is your husband, The LORD of hosts is His name; And your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel; He is called the God of the whole earth.”

In the Ancient Middle East, and in Ancient Israel, the betrothal WAS the "marriage covenant".  Adultery during the betrothal period was punishable by death.  In THIS SENSE, "the kingdom" HAS come.  We ARE betrothed.  Our "Husband" is our King.  He does NOT YET have dominion, but that dominion has been promised, and prophesied. 

Anciently, the "groom" left the bride to go prepare a place for her (usually within his family compound).  Jesus - our "husband" has "gone to prepare a place for us". 

The "wedding feast" is future.  When that time comes, we will literally BE WITH our "husband", at His Father's House.   

Rachel Cory,  prophecyviewpoint.com

 

[brotherly love]

IN WHAT SENSE - HAS "THE KINGDOM COME"? 

Why pray, "Thy kingdom come" - if it HAS ALREADY come????  It can be understood in ancient marriage custom. 

Our "marriage" to Christ - took place.  The "marriage feast" and consummation, HAS NOT YET taken place. 

    2 Corinthians 11:2 [Paul] “For I am jealous for you with godly jealousy. For I have betrothed you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.”

    Ephesians 5:23  “For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body.”

    The word translated “church” is the word for “congregation” as used through the Torah to describe the entire camp of Israel.  

    Isaiah 54:5 “For your Maker is your husband, The LORD of hosts is His name; And your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel; He is called the God of the whole earth.”

In the Ancient Middle East, and in Ancient Israel, the betrothal WAS the "marriage covenant".  Adultery during the betrothal period was punishable by death.  In THIS SENSE, "the kingdom" HAS come.  We ARE betrothed.  Our "Husband" is our King.  He does NOT YET have dominion, but that dominion has been promised, and prophesied. 

Anciently, the "groom" left the bride to go prepare a place for her (usually within his family compound).  Jesus - our "husband" has "gone to prepare a place for us". 

The "wedding feast" is future.  When that time comes, we will literally BE WITH our "husband", at His Father's House.   

Rachel Cory,  prophecyviewpoint.com

 

I just have to read scripture in order to know I live as part of the Messianic kingdom or body of Christ

Firstly, you have isolated the Lords prayer-it is a sequential whole. "your kingdom come" does not mean that the kingdom has not come, it means that we are to advance His kingdom "your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven"

Here are a few verses

But if it is by the Spirit of God that I drive out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you.

From the days of John the Baptist until now, the kingdom of heaven has been subjected to violence, and violent people have been raiding it.

“Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

“Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit.

 

 

Edited August 6, 2015 by brotherly love

[JoeMo]

IN WHAT SENSE - HAS "THE KINGDOM COME"?

Hi Rachel,

I wasn't looking at the Kingdom from an OT covenant POV; I was just stating what Jesus said so many times in His ministry:

"But if it is by the Spirit of God that I drive out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you." Matt. 12:28

"“The time has come,” he said. “The kingdom of God has come near. Repent and believe the good news!” Mark 1:15

Luke Chapters 9 - 11 are full of verses that clearly say "the kingdom of God is upon you" or "The Kingdon of God is near".  Luke 17:20-21 says "Once, on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, ²¹ nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is in your midst.”

The only way I can interpret this is that the Kingdom is already here; the King has just not yet formally claimed His throne.  Look back at how David received His kingship.  He was annointed King by Samuel  years before He claimed his throne. IMO in God's eyes David was King.  However, it wasn't until after the death of Solomon that David actually claimed His throne; and even then it was only after the people of Israel proclaimed Him as their King (i.e., gave their approval).  Could that be a model for us?  Are we already members of the Kingdom; but our King has just not yet come to claim His throne.  If we - as believers - are "not of this world," what are we "of"?  The Kingdom of heaven!

If we are indeed members of the Kingdom, we should strive to act like "part of the family" now.  The gospel (good news) is that "The [spiritual] Kingdom of God is upon us", no matter what the world is doing.  One day in the next decade or so the King will come claim His throne and establish His earthly Kingdom.

[brotherly love]

Hi Rachel,

I wasn't looking at the Kingdom from an OT covenant POV; I was just stating what Jesus said so many times in His ministry:

"But if it is by the Spirit of God that I drive out demons, then the kingdom of God has come upon you." Matt. 12:28

"“The time has come,” he said. “The kingdom of God has come near. Repent and believe the good news!” Mark 1:15

Luke Chapters 9 - 11 are full of verses that clearly say "the kingdom of God is upon you" or "The Kingdon of God is near".  Luke 17:20-21 says "Once, on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, ²¹ nor will people say, ‘Here it is,’ or ‘There it is,’ because the kingdom of God is in your midst.”

The only way I can interpret this is that the Kingdom is already here; the King has just not yet formally claimed His throne.  Look back at how David received His kingship.  He was annointed King by Samuel  years before He claimed his throne. IMO in God's eyes David was King.  However, it wasn't until after the death of Solomon that David actually claimed His throne; and even then it was only after the people of Israel proclaimed Him as their King (i.e., gave their approval).  Could that be a model for us?  Are we already members of the Kingdom; but our King has just not yet come to claim His throne.  If we - as believers - are "not of this world," what are we "of"?  The Kingdom of heaven!

If we are indeed members of the Kingdom, we should strive to act like "part of the family" now.  The gospel (good news) is that "The [spiritual] Kingdom of God is upon us", no matter what the world is doing.  One day in the next decade or so the King will come claim His throne and establish His earthly Kingdom.

 

Jesus is seated on His throne and rules from His throne in fulfillment of Daniel 7:13-14. This is why you have heavenly scenes in revelation. Jesus gave us a sign when He was in Heaven in authority-when armies surround Jerusalem, you know He is seated in Heaven. He told the sanhedrin this also.

Hebrews 10:12-13 

But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.

 

1 Corinthians 15:24-28 

Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet . The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all

 

 

 

In very simple terms, Jesus is ruling now until He puts the last enemy under His feet-which is death.

Ephesians 1:20-23 

 

Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Far above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world , but also in that which is to come: And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

Edited August 6, 2015 by brotherly love

[8thdaypriest]

In very simple terms, Jesus is ruling now until He puts the last enemy under His feet-which is death.

brotherly love,

You believe that Jesus already HAS dominion.  Right? 

But He does not receive the dominion until the Court sits, and that will take place at the END of "time, times and a part" of persecution by the Beast and his Little Horn. 

After He ascended, following His resurrection, He was made "head over all things to the church".  This is NOT YET dominion over the entire earth. 

Hebrews 2:8 "You have put all things in subjection under his feet." For in that He put all in subjection under him, He left nothing that is not put under him. But now we do not yet see all things put under him."

It's a process, which WILL put "all things" under Christ.  But the process is NOT YET COMPLETE. 

It's kinda like that verse which says the believer "has eternal life".  We have it, but we have not YET received it.  Right now - we just have the promise.  How do I know that?  Because we die.  And how do I know that Christ has NOT YET received "the dominion"?  Because He is not yet reigning within this dimension, on this earth.  His enemies have NOT YET been destroyed.  

[brotherly love]

brotherly love,

You believe that Jesus already HAS dominion.  Right? 

But He does not receive the dominion until the Court sits, and that will take place at the END of "time, times and a part" of persecution by the Beast and his Little Horn. 

After He ascended, following His resurrection, He was made "head over all things to the church".  This is NOT YET dominion over the entire earth. 

Hebrews 2:8 "You have put all things in subjection under his feet." For in that He put all in subjection under him, He left nothing that is not put under him. But now we do not yet see all things put under him."

It's a process, which WILL put "all things" under Christ.  But the process is NOT YET COMPLETE. 

It's kinda like that verse which says the believer "has eternal life".  We have it, but we have not YET received it.  Right now - we just have the promise.  How do I know that?  Because we die.  And how do I know that Christ has NOT YET received "the dominion"?  Because He is not yet reigning within this dimension, on this earth.  His enemies have NOT YET been destroyed.  

 

The court sitting in Daniel 7 is in favor of the captives under foreign control/exile. Notice the court sits, the captives shake off Antiochus IV the and then the Messianic figure ascends to Heaven taking dominion.

Hebrews 2:8 "You have put all things in subjection under his feet." For in that He put all in subjection under him, He left nothing that is not put under him. But now we do not yet see all things put under him."

What does the text say in context? It is responding to a quote from Psalms 8:(4-6). This psalm is about the glory and status of man over all creation. We are not enjoying this glory, and this part of Hebrews 2 explains why Jesus came as a man. Jesus came as a man to claim this honor and glory of Psalm 8 for us.

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, for the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that He, by the grace of God, might taste death for everyone.

You need to read the quotations and the context of why the writer of Hebrews used it in the first place. Looking for proof texts for paradigms make s the text loose its meaning.

Matthew 28:18

Then Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.