Reconciled to God

[pnattmbtc]

So these Scriptures tell a lie?

NKJ Romans 5:10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

 

NKJ 2 Corinthians 5:18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation

Samie, you should equate a lie with something being different to how you see it.  Regarding 2 Cor 5:18, early on in this thread, maybe the OP, referred to 2 Cor 5:20 

20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ’s stead, be ye reconciled to God. 

How could this plea be made if those addressed were already reconciled? 

[pnattmbtc]

To reconcile means "to restore friendly relations between."  There are two parties involved.  This cannot be accomplished unilaterally.

God has done something; He gave His Son for the human race.  If we believe the good news, and repent (change our mind, so we are no longer estranged from God, but choose to be friends with Him), then we have been reconciled.

[Samie]

A1. We were reconciled to God by the death of His Son. God reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ. (Rom 5:10; 2 Cor 5:18)

A2.  Be ye reconciled to God (2 Cor 5:20).

Because of A2, do we have to consider A1 as saying we were NOT yet reconciled to God until we reconcile ourselves to Him? I don't think so.

For me, A1 is a statement of fact that God has already reconciled us to Himself by the death of Jesus. While A2 is a call for us to live reconciled lives.  Because God has already reconciled us to Himself, we are to live reconciled lives.

Just like these verses:

B1.  We were made holy through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ (Heb 10:10).

B2. Be ye holy (1 Pet 1:15, 16).

B1 is a statement of fact that we were made holy through Jesus. While B2 is a call for us to live holy lives.  Because God has already made us holy, we are to live holy lives.

I think A2 & B2 are a call for us to overcome evil with good.

[Samie]

To reconcile means "to restore friendly relations between."  There are two parties involved.  This cannot be accomplished unilaterally.

That's according to you.  Your honest opinion.  And I respect it.

God has done something; He gave His Son for the human race.  If we believe the good news, and repent (change our mind, so we are no longer estranged from God, but choose to be friends with Him), then we have been reconciled.

Again, that's your honest, well-thought out opinion. But Scriptures say otherwise:

NKJ Romans 5:10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

 

NKJ 2 Corinthians 5:18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation

[pnattmbtc]

A1. We were reconciled to God by the death of His Son. God reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ. (Rom 5:10; 2 Cor 5:18)

A2.  Be ye reconciled to God (2 Cor 5:20).

Because of A2, do we have to consider A1 as saying we were NOT yet reconciled to God until we reconcile ourselves to Him? I don't think so.

For me, A1 is a statement of fact that God has already reconciled us to Himself by the death of Jesus. While A2 is a call for us to live reconciled lives.  Because God has already reconciled us to Himself, we are to live reconciled lives.

The general concept here is good, in that God has graciously done something for us at great cost to Himself, and on the basis of His own goodness He invites us to respond, but the expression is a bit off, as "reconciliation" involves two parties, so is not something can do unilaterally.  The appeal "be ye reconciled to God" is what it is: it does not say "Live a reconciled life."  This is especially clear when you look at the whole verse:

Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God. (2 Cor 5:20 NJKV)

We have a message, as Christ's ambassadors, which is "be reconciled to God."  Again, the text does not say, "Live a reconciled life" but "be reconciled to God."

Reconciliation involves two parties.  On the part of God, there is no need for reconciliation.  God is not angry at us, and is not counting our sins against us, but has given us His Son.  On the basis of this, God is pleading with those who don't know him, through those who do, "Be reconciled to Me." as in "Come in, the door is open."

[pnattmbtc]

That's according to you.  Your honest opinion.  And I respect it.

Again, that's your honest, well-thought out opinion. But Scriptures say otherwise:

NKJ Romans 5:10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

 

NKJ 2 Corinthians 5:18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation

In 2 Cor 5:18 the Scriptures says "and has given us the ministry of reconciliation".  To whom does this apply?  To Paul and those to whom Paul was addressing.  What is the message?  "Be reconciled to God."  So there are two groups of people:

1.Those who have been reconciled, and have been given a message to give to those who have not been reconciled.

2.Those who have not been reconciled, who are to receive a message from those who have been reconciled.

Regarding your statement:

That's according to you.  Your honest opinion.  And I respect it.

Again, that's your honest, well-thought out opinion. But Scriptures say otherwise:

this is incorrect, and there's an important point here.  What I'm pointing out is incorrect is not the interpretation of the verse, but the comment in regards to my opinion as to what "reconcile" means.  It's not my opinion; it's the definition of the word.  The Bible uses words according to their meanings; it doesn't reinvent the meaning of words.  I simply cited the definition of the word.

Now we may disagree in regards to how to interpret texts, but we should be able to agree as to the meaning of the words used!  "Reconcile" is a common, every day word, with a common, well understood meaning, which is what I cited. 

[Samie]

Now we may disagree in regards to how to interpret texts, but we should be able to agree as to the meaning of the words used!  "Reconcile" is a common, every day word, with a common, well understood meaning, which is what I cited. 

The issue is not the MEANING of reconciliation. It is the WHEN of reconciliation. When were people reconciled to God?

Pnatt's answer: "God has done something; He gave His Son for the human race. If we believe the good news, and repent (change our mind, so we are no longer estranged from God, but choose to be friends with Him), then we have been reconciled."

Based on Pnatt's answer, man takes some of the credit in his being reconciled to God.  The reconciliation takes place after man chooses to be friend with God.

From Scriptures:

^NAS Romans 5:10 For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

Whereas Pnatt gives some credit to man, Scriptures ascribe all credit to God.  Whereas Pnatt places reconciliation AFTER man chooses to be friend with God, Scriptures say that WHILE we were yet His enemies, God reconciled us to Himself.

I don't think I can exchange Scriptures for Pnatt's answer.

[pnattmbtc]

The issue is not the MEANING of reconciliation. It is the WHEN of reconciliation. When were people reconciled to God?

You can't discuss the when of reconciliation without understanding the meaning of the word.  Once again, the definition of
"reconcile" is "restore friendly relations between."  Given that only man is at odds with God, the obvious answer to the WHEN is that whenever one decides to longer be at odds with God, reconciliation takes place.

Samie: Pnatt's answer: "God has done something; He gave His Son for the human race. If we believe the good news, and repent (change our mind, so we are no longer estranged from God, but choose to be friends with Him), then we have been reconciled."

Based on Pnatt's answer, man takes some of the credit in his being reconciled to God.  The reconciliation takes place after man chooses to be friend with God.

Let's say I do something bad against you, through no fault of yours, based on a misunderstanding of something you had done.  So I, in my ignorance, do something which causes you harm, and I am found guilty in a court of law of owing you $1,000,000.  You decide to forgive me of my debt.  I find out that I was wrong in the first place, and ask your forgiveness.  You forgive me.

This is analagous to what has happened between man and God, where I am playing the part of man in the analogy.  Of course, the debt involved with God is much greater, but in the analogy I presented, is there any cause for me to claim credit?  What did I do?  I simply repented, and accepted your forgiveness.  How could this possibly be construed as my having done something for which I deserve credit?

Samie: From Scriptures:

NAS Romans 5:10 For if while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
Whereas Pnatt gives some credit to man, Scriptures ascribe all credit to God.  Whereas Pnatt places reconciliation AFTER man chooses to be friend with God, Scriptures say that WHILE we were yet His enemies, God reconciled us to Himself.

I don't think I can exchange Scriptures for Pnatt's answer.

To ascribe our repenting and accepting the forgiveness proffered by God as something for which we should claim credit seems like a silly idea, to put it kindly.  Who would think in these terms?

God so loved the world that He gave His Son, a gift of infinite value.  This gift is given to each individual me in the world, the gift of Christ being as individual for me as if I were the only who existed.  When I perceive the value of the gift, and the love of God for me represented by such a gift, my response, if I do not resist, will be one of repentence and of giving myself for God gratefully in appreciation for what God has done for me.  This is what it means to be justified by faith (see Luke 7).

I don't understand where there is room for perceiving anything worthy of credit on the part of man in any of this.  Credit for what?  The only thing we deserve credit for is the murder of the Son of God!

[8thdaypriest]

Samie,

You seem to be thinking of reconciliation in a forensic sense.  As if "reconciliation" was the same thing as "forgiveness".

I think you're reading "God reconciled us" in the same way that you would read "God forgave us."  

They are not the same word.  Forgiveness can be one-way.  It only takes ONE to forgive.  It takes TWO to reconcile.  

When I read "God reconciled us" - what I understand is that God brought about reconciliation within us -   by sending us a love message - through Christ.  

 

 

[Samie]

The issue is not the MEANING of reconciliation. It is the WHEN of reconciliation. When were people reconciled to God?

You can't discuss the when of reconciliation without understanding the meaning of the word.  Once again, the definition of
"reconcile" is "restore friendly relations between."  Given that only man is at odds with God, the obvious answer to the WHEN is that whenever one decides to longer be at odds with God, reconciliation takes place.

That's your opinion. And it's almost tiring to repeat same verses, over and over again, that we were reconciled to God through the death of Jesus, not through what you are explaining. If Scriptures can't convince you, what will?

[Samie]

Samie,

You seem to be thinking of reconciliation in a forensic sense.  As if "reconciliation" was the same thing as "forgiveness".

I think you're reading "God reconciled us" in the same way that you would read "God forgave us."  

They are not the same word.  Forgiveness can be one-way.  It only takes ONE to forgive.  It takes TWO to reconcile.  

When I read "God reconciled us" - what I understand is that God brought about reconciliation within us -   by sending us a love message - through Christ.  

I am thinking of RECONCILIATION the way it is written in Scriptures, that we were reconciled to God by the death of Jesus.

NKJ Romans 5:10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

 

NKJ 2 Corinthians 5:18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation

And it is a two-party affair. God and man. God reconciled man to Himself. Man benefits. All credit belongs to God 100%.

[8thdaypriest]

I am thinking of RECONCILIATION the way it is written in Scriptures, that we were reconciled to God by the death of Jesus.

NKJ Romans 5:10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

 

NKJ 2 Corinthians 5:18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation

And it is a two-party affair. God and man. God reconciled man to Himself. Man benefits. All credit belongs to God 100%.

Samie,

Really??  You're the ONLY ONE HERE who correctly understands the Scriptures.  That's a little arrogant. 

[pnattmbtc]

The issue is not the MEANING of reconciliation. It is the WHEN of reconciliation. When were people reconciled to God?

You can't discuss the when of reconciliation without understanding the meaning of the word.  Once again, the definition of
"reconcile" is "restore friendly relations between."  Given that only man is at odds with God, the obvious answer to the WHEN is that whenever one decides to longer be at odds with God, reconciliation takes place.

Samie: That's your opinion. And it's almost tiring to repeat same verses, over and over again, that we were reconciled to God through the death of Jesus, not through what you are explaining. If Scriptures can't convince you, what will?

A logical explanation of the evidence I find convincing.  When we read Scripture, we should try not to read our preexisting ideas into the text, as opposed to letting the text speak.  The word "reconcile" means, as its definition, that two parties which were at odds with one another become friends.  So to say that we were reconciled by the death of Christ, by the very meaning of the word "reconciled", has to mean that something happens to us, which causes us to become friends with God, which involves the death of Christ.  Consider the following text:

21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled (Col. 1:21)

See how much sense this makes when we take into account what "reconcile" means!  The point that we were once alienated and enemies in our minds is tied into being reconciled!  This is because to be reconcile *means* to make friends out of enemies.  Again, this is what "reconcile" means, and the text here is in perfect harmony with what the word means.

Your idea is that we were reconciled without our being involved, but that's impossible, given the meaning of the word, and clearly not in harmony with what the text is communicating in bringing out that we were once "alienated and enemies" where?  In our mind.

The problem is in the mind, so that's where the problem is fixed.  By the death of Christ, we who were once far from God are brought near to God.  How?  By changing our minds (this is what "repentance" means), which is brought about by the death of Christ ("the goodness of God leads you to repentance" Romans 2:4). 

[Samie]

To ascribe our repenting and accepting the forgiveness proffered by God as something for which we should claim credit seems like a silly idea, to put it kindly.  Who would think in these terms?

What is sillier is when Scriptures say we were reconciled to God by the death of Jesus, people insist reconciliation cannot take place UNLESS man puts in his piece.

[pnattmbtc]

What is sillier is when Scriptures say we were reconciled to God by the death of Jesus, people insist reconciliation cannot take place UNLESS man puts in his piece.

You can't have reconciliation without man putting in his piece, because man is the one who is at odds with God.  A person cannot stop being at odds with God without changing his mind (this is repentance) and deciding that rather than being angry at God, he will be friends with God (this is reconciliation).

We are reconciled by the death of Christ when we allow His death to bring us to repentance (see Col. 1:21).

[Samie]

The issue is not the MEANING of reconciliation. It is the WHEN of reconciliation. When were people reconciled to God? 

21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled (Col. 1:21)

When did He reconcile us as per the verse you quoted? Now. When is the Now? In the next verse you forgot to include: When Christ died.

^NKJ Colossians 1:21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled ²² in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight

The Now is when He died. NOT when man believes.

[Samie]

You can't have reconciliation without man putting in his piece, because man is the one who is at odds with God.  A person cannot stop being at odds with God without changing his mind (this is repentance) and deciding that rather than being angry at God, he will be friends with God (this is reconciliation).

That's your take of your own "reconciliation".  Man has to put in his piece, and you say it is not giving man some of the credit. I respect that.

But Scriptures tell a different story of God's act of reconciling man. He reconciled us to Himself when His Son died. He did not consult us. He did not wait for us to put in our piece. He did it because He loves us. Whether we acknowledge it or not, we are, in HIS sight, reconciled to Him.

[pnattmbtc]

When did He reconcile us as per the verse you quoted? Now. When is the Now? In the next verse you forgot to include: When Christ died.

NKJ Colossians 1:21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight

The Now is when He died. NOT when man believes.

Consider the text.  It says:

"who were once alienated and enemies in your mind"

When was this?  This was before the person being addressed repented.  This is what happened:

a.The person was at odds with God, alienated and an enemy in his mind.

b.The person repented (meaning he changed his mind; that's what "repent" means).

c.Then the person was no longer an enemy of God, but a friend, meaning he was reconciled.

What brought about his reconciliation?  The death of Christ!  How did it do that?  By leading him to change his mind, to repent; to decide, in his mind, to longer be alienated from God, but to be at peace with God instead.

When does a person have peace with God?

Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:(Romans 5:1)

Being at peace with God, meaning no long at enmity, or being reconciled, happens when one believes (as this verse states).

Reconciliation, by virtue of the meaning of the word, cannot happen without repentance. 

[Samie]

I am thinking of RECONCILIATION the way it is written in Scriptures, that we were reconciled to God by the death of Jesus.

NKJ Romans 5:10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

 

NKJ 2 Corinthians 5:18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation

And it is a two-party affair. God and man. God reconciled man to Himself. Man benefits. All credit belongs to God 100%.

Samie,

Really??  You're the ONLY ONE HERE who correctly understands the Scriptures.  That's a little arrogant. 

Oh, sorry, Rachel. I should have said "I am thinking of RECONCILIATION the way I understand it written in Scriptures". But I am not saying I'm the ONLY ONE HERE who correctly understands the Scriptures. Never did it come across my mind, Sister. And in God's name, I'm saying this.

[Samie]

When did He reconcile us as per the verse you quoted? Now. When is the Now? In the next verse you forgot to include: When Christ died.

^NKJ Colossians 1:21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled ²² in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight

The Now is when He died. NOT when man believes.

Consider the text.  It says:

"who were once alienated and enemies in your mind"

When was this?  This was before the person being addressed repented. 

When? It was BEFORE Christ died. The Colossian believers were NOT yet believers when Christ died. HIS death reconciled them, and us, to God. So Scriptures say.

This is what happened:

[in bold blue below, are Samie's]

a.The person was at odds with God, alienated and an enemy in his mind. [Before Christ died]

b.The person repented (meaning he changed his mind; that's what "repent" means). [Changed his mind: did good instead of evil]

c.Then the person was no longer an enemy of God, but a friend, meaning he was reconciled.[This happened when Christ died (Rom 5:10; 2 Cor 5:18; Col 1:21, 22). No verse says we were reconciled when we repented.]

 

[Samie]

What brought about his reconciliation?  The death of Christ!  How did it do that?  By leading him to change his mind, to repent; to decide, in his mind, to longer be alienated from God, but to be at peace with God instead.

Then, we all were led to change our minds!  NOT just the believers. If not all, why would Christ's death led some and others not?

When does a person have peace with God?

Being at peace with God, meaning no long at enmity, or being reconciled, happens when one believes (as this verse states).

Does the verse really say we were reconciled when one believes?

Colossians 1:21-22   ²¹ And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled  ²²in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight

I don't read reconciled when one believes, rather, He has reconciled us through His death.

Reconciliation, by virtue of the meaning of the word, cannot happen without repentance. 

That's your opinion. And I respect that.

Reconciliation, by virtue of what Scriptures EXPLICITLY say, happened when God reconciled us to Himself by the death of His Son.

NKJ Romans 5:10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

 

NKJ 2 Corinthians 5:18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation

 

NKJ Colossians 1:21-22   ²¹ And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled  ²²in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight

I think, it is a better decision to stay put with what Scriptures say rather than exchange it for the opinion of others.

[8thdaypriest]

One person CANNOT reconcile another.  He can plead with the other person.  He can let the other person know that he will not harm him, or exact any vengeance.  He can let the other person know that he has been forgiven.  (THAT was the message of the cross.)  But he CANNOT reconcile the other person. 

BECAUSE reconciliation is a response.  Reconciliation happens in the mind of the other person, who is at enmity (an enemy).  God COULD NOT reconcile minds that did not yet even EXIST, to change them into friends.  

God could - if He chose - overpower "free will" to  change specific humans into friends. But he could not do that before those humans even existed.  And if he did that - after they existed - that would be manipulation, which God has chosen NOT TO DO.  

If God were to overpower human minds, to make them friends - then His kingdom would be full of robots.  There would be no love, only the appearance of it, because love must be freely given.  And therefore reconciliation (changing from hate to love) must also be freely given. 

If God would EVER choose to overpower human minds, then HE should have done that - in the first place, with Adam and Eve - and skipped this whole painful mess!!!  The long and painful mess - the result of men exercising their free will to act in selfish or rebellious ways, is the loudest message that our God will NOT overpower human free will, to force some kind of "harmony" with Himself.

 

 

[Samie]

One person CANNOT reconcile another. 

Only God can, and He has done it. FOR us.

NKJ Romans 5:10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.

 

NKJ 2 Corinthians 5:18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation

 

NKJ Colossians 1:21-22   ²¹ And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled  ²²in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight

[Samie]

BECAUSE reconciliation is a response.  Reconciliation happens in the mind of the other person, who is at enmity (an enemy).

The "reconciliation" you speak of is different from the "reconciliation" spoken of in Scriptures.  While yours is a "response" of one who is at enmity, that of Scriptures is God's benevolent act for those at enmity with Him.

God COULD NOT reconcile minds that did not yet even EXIST, to change them into friends.

Scriptures indicate God could because Scriptures say He already did reconcile us to Himself.  He even made us holy (Heb 10:10).  We are holy in His sight!  And He can call those things which do not exist as though they did ( Romans 4:17), so whether we did not yet exist, is no problem to Him Who is not bound by time and space. This explains why He chose us in Him BEFORE the foundation of the world (Eph 1:3-5).

[Samie]

God could - if He chose - overpower "free will" to  change specific humans into friends. But he could not do that before those humans even existed.  And if he did that - after they existed - that would be manipulation, which God has chosen NOT TO DO. 

The reconciliation that God did for us, does not in any way overpower our "free will".  For me, it is empowering, instead of overpowering, people to exercise their free will.  Scriptures say that the reason why we were attached to the Body of Christ on the cross, is to reconcile us to God (Eph 2:15,16).  Attached to Him Who is our Strength (Phil 4:13), we can exercise our free will whether to overcome evil with good or not (Rom 12:21).  We can refuse to overcome evil, or choose to overcome it.

And God DID reconcile us. Yet, to me, it is not manipulation, I prefer to call it GRACE.