Reconciled to God

[Samie]

Enoch, Moses, and Elijah certainly had eternal life before Jesus died.

Had Jesus not died, I believe the 3 mentioned will not live eternally.

And because Jesus has already died, therefore Enoch, Moses, and Elijah will live eternally.

[pnattmbtc]

Or forgiveness.  That is, by the same logic you are applying in regards to eternal life, there also wouldn't be forgiveness of sins, right?  he had not shed His blood, which He said is for forgiveness of sins, so there couldn't have been any forgiveness of sins.

Also, to clarify, regarding eternal life, are you saying that nobody had eternal life before Jesus died? 

Samie: I think so because I believe it is what Scriptures say:

NIV Romans 5:18, 21   18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men.  . . .  21 so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Christ is the means by which righteousness and eternal life comes, but the timing of our receiving eternal life or being justified by faith is determined by when we believe.  Verse 21 says that through Christ righteousness reigns.  If this were a question of timing, it would mean there was no grace in the Old Testament, but this isn't Paul's meaning at all.  Paul's meaning is like John's, who wrote, "17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ." (John 1:17).

If we were to the read this text the way you read Scripture, we would have to conclude there was no truth before Jesus Christ came!

No, the point is not that there was no grace or truth before Christ came, but that Christ *revealed* these to an extent that had never been seen.

Similarly, in regards to everlasting life, it's not that no one had everlasting life before Christ came, but that Christ is the means by which we receive life.  Jesus Himself pointed this out when he said, "You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; 40and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life."  Now this was just as much true in the Old Testament as in the New.  It has always been the case that one receives everlasting life by believing in Christ.

Consider that John wrote in 1 John "I write these things that you may know you have everlasating life" speaking to those who had believed in Christ.  The timing John referred to was:

1.Believe in Christ.
2.Receive everlasting life.
3.Know that you have everlasting life by virture of Christ.

Faith is the means by which we receive Christ, and in Christ we receive life, everlasting life.  This has always been the case, in both the Old and New Testaments.

Consider Paul.  Paul used Abraham as an example of righteousness by faith.  What did Abraham receive by promise?
1.Righteousness
2.Everlasting life
3.Christ Himself ("I am thy exceeding great reward)".

Paul argues that "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness".  Abraham was justified by faith, and is the example of all who are justified by faith ("the father of all who believe").  So Abraham had to be justified by faith when he believed, not when Christ died, or else he could not have been referred to as righteouness, nor the example of those who believe.

Here's another text which speaks of what it means to be righteous:

Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart is my law; (Isa 51:7)

To be righteous is to have the law written in the heart, which is the New Covenant, which happens when one believes in Christ.

One final comment is that everlasting life is primarily a quality of life, not simply duration.  Moses and Enoch and Elijah could not have been in heaven for a moment without everlasting life, so that could not wait for Christ to die before they received it.

 

[Samie]

Christ is the means by which righteousness and eternal life comes, but the timing of our receiving eternal life or being justified by faith is determined by when we believe.  Verse 21 says that through Christ righteousness reigns.  If this were a question of timing, it would mean there was no grace in the Old Testament, but this isn't Paul's meaning at all.  Paul's meaning is like John's, who wrote, "17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ." (John 1:17).
 

If we were to the read this text the way you read Scripture, we would have to conclude there was no truth before Jesus Christ came!

No, the point is not that there was no grace or truth before Christ came, but that Christ *revealed* these to an extent that had never been seen.

Pardon, for not making myself clear in regards to eternal life.

But I think I have consistently written that we all - Adam & Eve and all their descendants - were born with our names in the Book of Life.  And to be in the Book of Life is to be attached to Christ.  And to be attached to Him Who is our Life means we have eternal life, unless deleted from the Book.

Here's another text which speaks of what it means to be righteous:

Hearken unto me, ye that know righteousness, the people in whose heart is my law; (Isa 51:7)

To be righteous is to have the law written in the heart, which is the New Covenant, which happens when one believes in Christ.

I believe the terms of the New Covenant had been applied since Adam, not just when one believes. Paul talks of Gentiles as having the law written in their hearts. Using your logic that “To be righteous is to have the law written in the heart”, they must be righteous as well. But the point is that among these Gentiles are those who have not known Christ yet, hence, they could have not yet believed.

[pnattmbtc]

Pardon, for not making myself clear in regards to eternal life.

But I think I have consistently written that we all - Adam & Eve and all their descendants - were born with our names in the Book of Life.  And to be in the Book of Life is to be attached to Christ.  And to be attached to Him Who is our Life means we have eternal life, unless deleted from the Book.

 

I believe the terms of the New Covenant had been applied since Adam, not just when one believes. Paul talks of Gentiles as having the law written in their hearts. Using your logic that “To be righteous is to have the law written in the heart”, they must be righteous as well. But the point is that among these Gentiles are those who have not known Christ yet, hence, they could have not yet believed.

John 1:9 says Jesus is the true light which lightens every one who comes into the world.  If they had the law written in their hearts, then they were righteous.  How is this my logic?  Isaiah 51:7 says that those who know righteousness are those in whose heart is written the law.  Also the New Covenant is the writing of the law in the heart and mind.

To conclude:

1.To have the law written in the heart, they have been righteous.

2.To be righteous, they must have believed.

3.Jesus Christ is the true light who lightens everyone who comes into the world, so the Gentiles were able to believe.

Proof of this is Abraham!  Abraham was a Gentile when he believed in Christ.

[Samie]

John 1:9 says Jesus is the true light which lightens every one who comes into the world.  If they had the law written in their hearts, then they were righteous.  How is this my logic?  Isaiah 51:7 says that those who know righteousness are those in whose heart is written the law.  Also the New Covenant is the writing of the law in the heart and mind.

To conclude:

1.To have the law written in the heart, they have been righteous.

2.To be righteous, they must have believed.

3.Jesus Christ is the true light who lightens everyone who comes into the world, so the Gentiles were able to believe.

Proof of this is Abraham!  Abraham was a Gentile when he believed in Christ.

Before I proceed, can you show biblical basis why you said Abraham was a Gentile?  For me, I believe Scriptures differentiate Israelites or Hebrews from Gentiles.

[pnattmbtc]

Before I proceed, can you show biblical basis why you said Abraham was a Gentile?  For me, I believe Scriptures differentiate Israelites or Hebrews from Gentiles.

Abraham was the first Jew.  Before he believed, he was a Gentile, whom God called to establish a great nation, etc.  The story is in Genesis.

[8thdaypriest]

Before I proceed, can you show biblical basis why you said Abraham was a Gentile?  For me, I believe Scriptures differentiate Israelites or Hebrews from Gentiles.

The first person, in the Bible, to be called a Hebrew, was Abraham. 

Genesis 14:13 "Then one who had escaped came and told Abram the Hebrew, for he dwelt by the terebinth trees of Mamre the Amorite, brother of Eshcol and brother of Aner; and they were allies with Abram." (NKJ)

I know that Abraham's father worshiped idols, at least according to Jewish tradition.  Abraham's son Isaac, married Rebekah, the grandaughter of Abraham's brother Nahor.  Rebekah's brother was Laben.  And Laben's household worshiped idols.  We know that from the Rachel story. 

I Looked up a bit of info from Jewish and Messianic sites. 

The name basically means the one who is opposed, or the one on the other side, or  different from all others.

Abraham was a solitary believer in a sea of idolatry.  He was "called" to "come out" - and obeyed - because he "believed".   

[JoeMo]

Abraham was the first Jew.  Before he believed, he was a Gentile, whom God called to establish a great nation, etc.  The story is in Genesis.

Not to nit-pick, but weren't Jews members of the tribe of Judah, which didn't exist until a few decades after Abrahams' calling?  I believe that Judah was Abraham's great grandson.

Also, Israelites did not exist before Jacob (Israel).  So how could Abraham have been anything but an ethnic Gentile?  He may have been called Hebrew, but he wasn't Jewish or Israelite.

Edited September 21, 2015 by JoeMo

[pnattmbtc]

Not to nit-pick, but weren't Jews members of the tribe of Judah, which didn't exist until a few decades after Abrahams' calling?  I believe that Judah was Abraham's great grandson.

Also, Israelites did not exist before Jacob (Israel).  So how could Abraham have been anything but an ethnic Gentile?  He may have been called Hebrew, but he wasn't Jewish or Israelite.

An interesting question.  The Jewish people consider Abraham to be the first Jew.

[8thdaypriest]

Abraham HAD other sons, besides Isaac, and they were NOT called Hebrews. 

[phkrause]

An interesting question.  The Jewish people consider Abraham to be the first Jew.

The Jews of today will always call all Israelite's, Hebrews, Jews and nothing else. Just the way it is

[Samie]

Before I proceed, can you show biblical basis why you said Abraham was a Gentile?  For me, I believe Scriptures differentiate Israelites or Hebrews from Gentiles.

Abraham was the first Jew.  Before he believed, he was a Gentile, whom God called to establish a great nation, etc.  The story is in Genesis. 

Not to nit-pick, but weren't Jews members of the tribe of Judah, which didn't exist until a few decades after Abrahams' calling?  I believe that Judah was Abraham's great grandson.

Also, Israelites did not exist before Jacob (Israel).  So how could Abraham have been anything but an ethnic Gentile?  He may have been called Hebrew, but he wasn't Jewish or Israelite.

Is there any verse in the Bible that refers to Abraham as a Gentile? I have found none so far.  I'd be glad to be shown one.  Again, for me, Scriptures differentiate Hebrews (Jews or Israelites) from Gentiles.

The point I want to make is that before Christ was born in a manger, there were already righteous people, both Israelites and non-Israelites.  These people could have not believed in Christ, since no one had preached Christ to them yet.  I say this because of what Pnatt said:

To be righteous is to have the law written in the heart, which is the New Covenant, which happens when one believes in Christ.

There's no doubt that Abraham believed God.  But to say that he believed in Christ, as if Abraham knew about Christ, is doubtful.

[pnattmbtc]

Samie: The point I want to make is that before Christ was born in a manger, there were already righteous people, both Israelites and non-Israelites.  These people could have not believed in Christ, since no one had preached Christ to them yet. 

Who preached the Gospel to Abraham ?!? 

[pnattmbtc]

There's no doubt that Abraham believed God.  But to say that he believed in Christ, as if Abraham knew about Christ, is doubtful.

This is Paul's whole argument.  It is the basis of Romans and Galatians.  Abraham is the father of all who believe.  Believe how?  Believe in Christ.  Again, this is the whole point of Paul's argument, but yours is a good question, and I'll answer it in detail when I can.  (but you comment does make me wonder what you think Paul's argument was). 

[pnattmbtc]

Samie:There's no doubt that Abraham believed God.  But to say that he believed in Christ, as if Abraham knew about Christ, is doubtful.

 

Here's something which came to mind:

3 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth,[a] before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you[b] as crucified? 2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have you suffered so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?

5 Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you,does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?— 6 just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[c]7 Therefore know that only those who are of faith are sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, “In you all the nations shall be blessed.”[d] 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with believing Abraham.

We are saved by believing the same Gospel that was preached to Abraham.  How are we saved?  By believing in Christ.  So how was Abraham saved?  The same way. 

[pnattmbtc]

"56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad." (John 8:56)

[pnattmbtc]

Another one, also from John 8:

38 I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father.

39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

[Samie]

Your last posts seem to have not addressed what I requested addressed. Here again: 

Is there any verse in the Bible that refers to Abraham as a Gentile? I have found none so far.  I'd be glad to be shown one.  Again, for me, Scriptures differentiate Hebrews (Jews or Israelites) from Gentiles.

The point I want to make is that before Christ was born in a manger, there were already righteous people, both Israelites and non-Israelites.  These people could have not believed in Christ, since no one had preached Christ to them yet.  I say this because of what Pnatt said: [To be righteous is to have the law written in the heart, which is the New Covenant, which happens when one believes in Christ]

There's no doubt that Abraham believed God.  But to say that he believed in Christ, as if Abraham knew about Christ, is doubtful.

[pnattmbtc]

Your last posts seem to have not addressed what I requested addressed. Here again: 

Samie, I wrote 5(!) posts dealing with the issue of Abraham not knowing Christ.  Yes, Abraham did know Christ.  First of all, Abraham spoke face to face with Christ; it was Christ who said to Abraham, "I am thy exceeding great reward".  But even if you don't see this (that it was Christ who was speaking to Abraham), we can certainly infer that Abraham knew about Christ because of who it was who preached the Gospel to Abraham.  

As an aside, if you would be kind enough to respond to my posts, that would be helpful.  There is a reason I am writing them!  You just skip over them with the assumption they are not dealing with your questions, but they are.  Please respond to the posts, and if you don't see the connection, point that out in your response.  Ask questions if the points don't make sense, but please don't just skip over them, because it takes time to think out what to say, and to write out them out.

Anyway, to continue with the point, it was God Himself who was preaching the Gospel to Abraham, and surely God would not have forgotten to mention Christ to Abraham, don't you think?  Now Abraham could not have been an Israelite because Israel hadn't been born yet.  If a Jew is one who is a descendant of Judah, then he would be discounted for that reason also.  If we take the Jews word for it, that Abraham was the first Jew, then he certainly wasn't until after he was called by God to leave the house of his father Terah, when God made the covenant with him.

From a spiritual standpoint, a true Jew is one who is a Jew inwardly, and before one become a Jew, one is a gentile.

Regarding there being verses dealing with Abraham, there are no verses which state either that Abraham was a jew or that he was a gentile.  We have to figure out what he was by using the definition of the term, since Scripture doesn't say one way or the other.

[pnattmbtc]

Samie: The point I want to make is that before Christ was born in a manger, there were already righteous people, both Israelites and non-Israelites.  These people could have not believed in Christ, since no one had preached Christ to them yet. 

Let me make clear the point I've been trying to make.  You're statement here is clearly incorrect because Abraham is a counter example.  God Himself preached Christ to Abraham.  Also, the entire Bible, from Genesis to Revelation, is preaching Christ!  Anyone with access to Scripture had Christ preached to them, and Paul explicitly makes this point in Galatians 3, where he says that Gospel was preached to Abraham, and that anyone believing any other Gospel than the one preached to Abraham should be accursed. 

There is no way to be righteous other than by believing in Christ.  This is Paul's whole point, in all of Romans and Galatians.  He argues this point in many different ways.  

How do you think a person could be righteous, other than be believing in Christ?

[Samie]

Let me make clear the point I've been trying to make.  You're statement here is clearly incorrect because Abraham is a counter example.  God Himself preached Christ to Abraham.  Also, the entire Bible, from Genesis to Revelation, is preaching Christ!  Anyone with access to Scripture had Christ preached to them, and Paul explicitly makes this point in Galatians 3, where he says that Gospel was preached to Abraham, and that anyone believing any other Gospel than the one preached to Abraham should be accursed. 

There is no way to be righteous other than by believing in Christ.  This is Paul's whole point, in all of Romans and Galatians.  He argues this point in many different ways.  

How do you think a person could be righteous, other than be believing in Christ?

You have any verse from the Bible that Abel the righteous personally knew about Christ and believed in Him? Why did Zechariah record of one who will ask Christ about the wounds in His hands?

I ask because you are saying that my statement is wrong, that there are righteous people before Christ was born in a manger who could have not believed in Him yet, because they have not yet personally known Him since nobody had preached to them about Him yet.  Just because Abraham believed in God you want it to mean he personally knew about Christ and believed in Him and that all other righteous must have undergone the same experience as Abraham's. 

But as I see it, what you have is a wonderful ASSUMPTION devoid of Scriptural basis.

[8thdaypriest]

"There is ONLY ONE MEDIATOR between God and man."  I Tim. 2:5

That "mediation" began in the Garden of Eden, when Adam ate the fruit.  The "mediator" all thru the Old Testament WAS the Son of God.  He was the Anointed One - therefore He was "the Christ".  His work began LONG before He hung on that cross. 

Here's a study I did on this topic:  http://www.prophecyviewpoint.com/htdocs/11-The Mediator.pdf

Who do you think Abraham had a relationship with? 

Just because Abraham did not "see" Jesus hanging on the cross, (and we don't know that he didn't) does NOT mean that Abraham knew nothing of God's plan.  When Isaac was "saved" by the angel who stopped Abraham's knife, when God provided the ram caught in the thicket, Christ was teaching Abraham about the plan.  Jesus later said, "Abraham rejoiced to SEE My day, and he saw it, and was glad." 

When Abraham responded to Christ's "call" to leave his idolatrous family, when Abraham responded to Christ's command to sacrifice his own son  he obviously "believed" and his "belief" resulted in actions. 

Abraham came from the line of men who "knew" (or knew about) the LORD.  Noah died when Abraham was 60.  Eber lived another 239 years AFTER Abraham was born.  Abraham COULD have learned from these men.  Abraham could have had a great desire to know the LORD, before he was told to leave Ur. 

[pnattmbtc]

You have any verse from the Bible that Abel the righteous personally knew about Christ and believed in Him? Why did Zechariah record of one who will ask Christ about the wounds in His hands?

I ask because you are saying that my statement is wrong, that there are righteous people before Christ was born in a manger who could have not believed in Him yet, because they have not yet personally known Him since nobody had preached to them about Him yet.  Just because Abraham believed in God you want it to mean he personally knew about Christ and believed in Him and that all other righteous must have undergone the same experience as Abraham's. 

But as I see it, what you have is a wonderful ASSUMPTION devoid of Scriptural basis.

I already sent a number of posts with Scripture texts dealing with this, at least 5.  There are texts from John 8, and Galatians 3 that I sent.

Also, as I pointed out, the entirety of Galatians and Romans is making this point. It's the basis of Paul's entire argument in Galatians and Romans, and also Ephesians and Colossians.  Since Romans and Galatians deal with it more explicitly, I'll discuss these.

First of all, regarding Abraham, it is not the case that Abraham simply believed in God, but Abraham believed the Gospel, the Gospel of justification by faith in Christ, and that God Himself preached the Gospel to Abraham.  That God Himself preached the Gospel is significant because we can count on the fact that God would have not have forgotten the importance of Christ!

Let's consider Paul's argument in Galatians 3.  Paul is arguing that justification is by faith in Christ, not by the works of the law.  He starts out by saying that it is evident that no one is justified by the law because the just shall live by faith.  Now what sort of faith is this?  A general faith, where one simply believes in God?  Or is specificially faith in Christ as our personal Savior?  It's faith in Christ, which the context makes clear, especially vs. 22, 24, and 26, but really all the verses.

For example, consider vss. 15-18.  What's Paul's argument here?  Paul's argument is that all that was needed for salvation was given to Abraham as a promise, and this promise includes all who believe.  Now the promise given to Abraham, which Paul also refers to as a covenant, is none other than the New Covenant (also known as "the everlasting covenant" or "the Abrahamic covenant") and permeates Scripture.  The importance of this covenant, and its presence in Scripture, cannot be overestimated.  And the center of the covenant is Christ, which is evident by many different means, not the least of which is the sanctuary service.

Notice the concluding verse of the chapter, "And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."  This answers the question as to who is Abraham's seed, and thus who will receive the promises, which include everlasting life, righteousness, the ressurection, the world made new, and above all, Christ Himself.  Some chapters which deal with this off the top of my head are John 8, Romans 4, Galatians 3, 2 Pet. 3, and Hebrews 8, but there are many, many more.  It's all over the place.

The crux of Paul's argument is that in order to receive eternal life, one must be included in the promise to Abraham, and receive that promise the same way Abraham did, which was by faith in Christ.  So no one at any time could be saved except in the way that Abraham was saved, which was by faith in Christ.

Now as to how we know Christ, how does that happen?  Have any of us personally known Christ?  No; only those who lived during His time on earth had that privilege.  We know Christ through the Holy Spirit, who preached Christ to those who lived before His death as well as to us who live after.  The Scriptures of the Old Testament speak of Christ as much as those in the New, although we have details regarding Christ's life, of course, but, for example, the entire sanctuary service was preaching Christ, as Isaiah 53 is certainly a clear presentation of Christ, as is Psalm 22, and there are many others.  

Jesus said, "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life."  What Scriptures was He talking about?  The Old Testament.  They testified of Christ so that those who heard could to go Christ to receive everlasting life.  Any saved person in the Old Testament had a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and knew Christ by means of the Scriptures which testified of Him, as He Himself stated.

Paul makes the same argument in Romans 4 as he made in Galatians 3.  Abraham is given as the example of justification by faith in Christ.  Abraham is the father of all who believe.  Abraham is Paul's argument that one is justified by faith in Christ.

We are justified by believing the same gospel that Abraham believed.

[pnattmbtc]

In John 8, those speaking to Christ said to Him, "You are not even 50 years old, and you have seen Abraham?"  This makes clear that Christ and Abraham knew each other.

[8thdaypriest]

From the Garden, and the promise that "the seed of the woman" would crush the serpent's head, the line of the faithful, were those who believed THIS promise.  They looked for a "promised one" who would save them from the Serpent's domination. 

In other words, they were looking for, and believing in the promise of Christ Jesus.  They may not have understood exactly HOW he would crush the serpent's head.