Reconciled to God

[Samie]

In John 8, those speaking to Christ said to Him, "You are not even 50 years old, and you have seen Abraham?"  This makes clear that Christ and Abraham knew each other.

Wow. Jumping to conclusion to fast, to soon, it seems. Many people have seen Obama but does the US President know them all? I doubt.

Why don't Pnatt and 8thdaypriest address the issue of Zechariah's account of one who will ask the Lord about the wounds in His hands?  The fact that he personally asked the Lord implies he is with the Lord personally without knowing He was crucified! This simply implies no one had preached to him about Him crucified. Yet he is righteous because he is with the Lord.  This seems to point to a direction different from the direction this statement of Pnatt is pointing to: "There is no way to be righteous other than by believing in Christ."

[pnattmbtc]

In John 8, those speaking to Christ said to Him, "You are not even 50 years old, and you have seen Abraham?"  This makes clear that Christ and Abraham knew each other.

Samie: Wow. Jumping to conclusion to fast, to soon, it seems. Many people have seen Obama but does the US President know them all? I doubt.

Your comment doesn't make sense here, Samie.  Please read John 8, and notice the flow of the conversation.  What you're suggesting isn't possible.  Have you read John 8?  I'm not jumping to any conclusions here, just reading what it says.  What you are suggesting is impossible (i.e. your analogy regarding Obama).

[pnattmbtc]

Wow. Jumping to conclusion to fast, to soon, it seems. Many people have seen Obama but does the US President know them all? I doubt.

Why don't Pnatt and 8thdaypriest address the issue of Zechariah's account of one who will ask the Lord about the wounds in His hands?  The fact that he personally asked the Lord implies he is with the Lord personally without knowing He was crucified! This simply implies no one had preached to him about Him crucified. Yet he is righteous because he is with the Lord.  This seems to point to a direction different from the direction this statement of Pnatt is pointing to: "There is no way to be righteous other than by believing in Christ."

Samie, I wrote a detailed post, with 12 paragraphs in it, explaining Paul's argument.  I've asked you several times how you think one if justified by faith, and what you think Paul's argument is.  Please address these questions.  I really would like to understand how you are understanding Paul.
 
 Regarding your question regarding Zechariah, there will be people in heaven who do not understand all the details regarding the plan of salvation, but Christ is the only way of salvation, which is made clear in Scripture in many different ways.  For example, Christ Himself said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life.  No one comes to the Father but by Me."

Edited September 25, 2015 by pnattmbtc

[Samie]

 

Your comment doesn't make sense here, Samie.  Please read John 8, and notice the flow of the conversation.  What you're suggesting isn't possible.  Have you read John 8?  I'm not jumping to any conclusions here, just reading what it says.  What you are suggesting is impossible (i.e. your analogy regarding Obama).

I think it's you not making any sense, that just because Christ had seen Abraham, Abraham knew who saw him. And that's my Obama analogy. Many have seen Obama, but it does not mean Obama knows who saw him.

[Samie]

Samie, I wrote a detailed post, with 12 paragraphs in it, explaining Paul's argument.  I've asked you several times how you think one if justified by faith, and what you think Paul's argument is.  Please address these questions.  I really would like to understand how you are understanding Paul.

It is not the length of posts that makes it true, it is in it's being in harmony with what Scriptures say. I have for so many times written that the faith you speak of is the faith of the Son of God, which one bears when one is attached to Him, being fruit of the Spirit.  Any fruit that a branch bear, is the fruit of the vine. And Christ is the Vine, we are the branches.

Regarding justification by faith - the faith of the Son of God, Paul said all were justified freely, not just believers, like Abraham. So Scriptures say:

^NKJ Romans 3:23-24   ²³ for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,  ²⁴ being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

^NAS Romans 5:18   ¹⁸ So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

[pnattmbtc]

I think it's you not making any sense, that just because Christ had seen Abraham, Abraham knew who saw him. And that's my Obama analogy. Many have seen Obama, but it does not mean Obama knows who saw him.

Did you read John 8?

39 They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

40 But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham.

 

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

I'm not understanding how you could have read this and not think that Abraham knew Christ. 

[pnattmbtc]

It is not the length of posts that makes it true, it is in it's being in harmony with what Scriptures say.

The reason for the length of the posts is for your benefit, so you can understand the points being made.  If you understand the points being made, and disagree with that, that's one thing, but if you don't even understand what's being said, then there needs to be an explanation.  For example, in a recent post you made a presentation of what you called the sequence of events according to me which left me scratching my head.  It is so different than what I actually wrote, I cannot conceive of how you could get it so wrong.  I wrote down what I believed the sequence was.  You could have just copied and pasted that, but instead wrote something completely different which I disagree with completely.  It's actions like these which lead me to believe there is a disconnect of understanding.  I understand that English is not your first language, so that may explain it, but it is my hope when we disagree with each other, that we are actually disagreeing with what the other persont thinks.

I have for so many times written that the faith you speak of is the faith of the Son of God, which one bears when one is attached to Him, being fruit of the Spirit.  Any fruit that a branch bear, is the fruit of the vine. And Christ is the Vine, we are the branches.

Regarding justification by faith - the faith of the Son of God, Paul said all were justified freely, not just believers, like Abraham. So Scriptures say:

NKJ Romans 3:23-24   23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,  24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

NAS Romans 5:18   18 So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men.

I agree that there are some scriptures which speak of the "faith of Jesus" as opposed to our faith, but this would be the basis of our being justified by faith, not our being justified by faith ourselves.  There are Scripture which speak of our faith, and our exercising our faith, and in so doing being justified by faith.  For example, consider the following text:

For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Romans 10:10

This is talking about us, not Christ.

[8thdaypriest]

Wow. Jumping to conclusion to fast, to soon, it seems. Many people have seen Obama but does the US President know them all? I doubt.

Why don't Pnatt and 8thdaypriest address the issue of Zechariah's account of one who will ask the Lord about the wounds in His hands?  The fact that he personally asked the Lord implies he is with the Lord personally without knowing He was crucified! This simply implies no one had preached to him about Him crucified. Yet he is righteous because he is with the Lord.  This seems to point to a direction different from the direction this statement of Pnatt is pointing to: "There is no way to be righteous other than by believing in Christ."

I have repeated and repeated my answer to the "one" who will ask the Lord Jesus about the "wounds in his hands".  You Samie, just don't LIKE my answer. 

There are TWO POSSIBILITIES. 

1.  This person lived during the OT, believed in Yahweh, served Yahweh, offered the sacrifices in faith, and died without knowing exactly HOW the promised "seed" would crush the Serpent's head.

OR

2. This person is one from "the rest of the dead" who will be resurrected at the 8th millennium, to continue his physical life, to learn of Christ, and THEN to choose - either to serve, or to rebel against Christ.  This "one" lived and died in ignorance - therefore his sins (of ignorance) were not counted against him.  This one did NOT know of, or choose to serve Christ (or Yahweh) during his life prior to the SC, therefore he could NOT be given eternal life, at the return of Christ.  He must be resurrected at the 8th millennium, taught the things of God (including the story of Christ) and THEN CHOOSE. 

I explain this scenario in my book "The 8th Day".  Rachel Cory, prophecyviewpoint.com

[Samie]

Did you read John 8?

I'm not understanding how you could have read this and not think that Abraham knew Christ. 

I am not understanding too how you could have thought that since Christ saw Abraham, Abraham knew who saw him.

[Samie]

I have repeated and repeated my answer to the "one" who will ask the Lord Jesus about the "wounds in his hands".  You Samie, just don't LIKE my answer. 

There are TWO POSSIBILITIES. 

1.  This person lived during the OT, believed in Yahweh, served Yahweh, offered the sacrifices in faith, and died without knowing exactly HOW the promised "seed" would crush the Serpent's head.

OR

2. This person is one from "the rest of the dead" who will be resurrected at the 8th millennium, to continue his physical life, to learn of Christ, and THEN to choose - either to serve, or to rebel against Christ.  This "one" lived and died in ignorance - therefore his sins (of ignorance) were not counted against him.  This one did NOT know of, or choose to serve Christ (or Yahweh) during his life prior to the SC, therefore he could NOT be given eternal life, at the return of Christ.  He must be resurrected at the 8th millennium, taught the things of God (including the story of Christ) and THEN CHOOSE. 

I explain this scenario in my book "The 8th Day".  Rachel Cory, prophecyviewpoint.com

You gave two possibilities.  For me, that means you are not sure of your position and you are still confused as to what is the correct Biblical answer.  What reason can one have to be interested in the book of one who is still confused?

 

[Samie]

The reason for the length of the posts is for your benefit, so you can understand the points being made.  If you understand the points being made, and disagree with that, that's one thing, but if you don't even understand what's being said, then there needs to be an explanation.  For example, in a recent post you made a presentation of what you called the sequence of events according to me which left me scratching my head.  It is so different than what I actually wrote, I cannot conceive of how you could get it so wrong.  I wrote down what I believed the sequence was.  You could have just copied and pasted that, but instead wrote something completely different which I disagree with completely.  It's actions like these which lead me to believe there is a disconnect of understanding.  I understand that English is not your first language, so that may explain it, but it is my hope when we disagree with each other, that we are actually disagreeing with what the other persont thinks.

English may not be my first language, but I think I do realize whether two scenarios mean the same even if worded differently.  So what specifically do you disagree with how I presented your sequence of events?

[8thdaypriest]

You gave two possibilities.  For me, that means you are not sure of your position and you are still confused as to what is the correct Biblical answer.  What reason can one have to be interested in the book of one who is still confused?

 

NIV  Zechariah 13:6 If someone asks, 'What are these wounds on your body?' he will answer, 'The wounds I was given at the house of my friends.'

BOTH of my replies can be fulfilled, exactly as written.  Those who lived during the OT, and have not yet learned of the death of God's Son, can ask that question. 

And those who are resurrected as "the rest of the dead" - those who died in complete ignorance of Yahweh, can also ask this question. 

The question described, can be repeated many, many, many times, as people come to know Jesus. 

Samie.  Your reply to me was VERY arrogant! 

[8thdaypriest]

You gave two possibilities.  For me, that means you are not sure of your position and you are still confused as to what is the correct Biblical answer.  What reason can one have to be interested in the book of one who is still confused?

 

I can also tell you that dozens and dozens of Muslims have had visions of Christ.  Often the individuals "see" a man with wounds, and say the words from the prophecy, "What are these wounds."  In the next few days, a film team will arrive in their village, to show "The Jesus Film".  When the one who saw the dream, watches the video, he sees the same man, the one he saw in his dream. 

If you're not familiar with this ministry, they produce a film of the life of Christ, with dialog taken exclusively from the Book of Luke.  The film has been translated into some 800+ languages and dialects - so far.  I is a powerful tool for sharing the Gospel - worldwide.

The timing of the fulfillment - of this vision - is NOT specific.  Certainly MORE THAN ONE individual would ask this question, "What are these wounds." 

This was a prophecy of Messiah.  He would be "wounded for our transgressions". 

[pnattmbtc]

English may not be my first language, but I think I do realize whether two scenarios mean the same even if worded differently.  So what specifically do you disagree with how I presented your sequence of events?

That's on another thread, so I'll leave that there, so we're not discussing the same thing in two different places.  But I wrote out the sequence of events as I see it, so just compare what you wrote to that.

I appreciate you're taking the time to write out your ideas and explain your thoughts.  I have no idea if we'll come to an agreement, but the opportunity to think these things out has been very helpful to me.

This thread is about being reconciled to God.  Let's start with something we agree on.

1.God did something for the entire human race.

2.There are things which we as individuals need to do.

My understanding of what you think falls into category 2 is overcoming evil with good.  So I'm pretty sure if I said the following, we would agree:

1.God gave His Son to die for us, which benefits the entire human race.

2.Every human being (who can reason) must overcome evil with good to spend eternity with God. (i.e. not have his name blotted out in the book of life)

I've tried to put this in you own language, in a way that you would feel comfortable agreeing to the statements.  What I'd like to clarify is how step 2 happens.  I believe this happens as a result of believing in Christ, meaning to accept Christ as one's personal Savior, which is to be converted.  Are we on the same page up to here?  Or do you disagree with this?

[Samie]

That's on another thread, so I'll leave that there, so we're not discussing the same thing in two different places.  But I wrote out the sequence of events as I see it, so just compare what you wrote to that.

I appreciate you're taking the time to write out your ideas and explain your thoughts.  I have no idea if we'll come to an agreement, but the opportunity to think these things out has been very helpful to me.

This thread is about being reconciled to God.  Let's start with something we agree on.

1.God did something for the entire human race.

2.There are things which we as individuals need to do.

My understanding of what you think falls into category 2 is overcoming evil with good.  So I'm pretty sure if I said the following, we would agree:

1.God gave His Son to die for us, which benefits the entire human race.

2.Every human being (who can reason) must overcome evil with good to spend eternity with God. (i.e. not have his name blotted out in the book of life)

I've tried to put this in you own language, in a way that you would feel comfortable agreeing to the statements.  What I'd like to clarify is how step 2 happens.  I believe this happens as a result of believing in Christ, meaning to accept Christ as one's personal Savior, which is to be converted.  Are we on the same page up to here?  Or do you disagree with this?

It is in Step 2 - what I call the 2nd Dimension of the Gospel or the Present Tense of Salvation - that believing in Christ happens.  But there are people - just like those who were born before the cross, those who lived and died in far flung areas yet unreached by Christian missionaries,etc. - who have no personal knowledge about our and THEIR Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Their overcoming of evil, as with us, is relative to what were written in their hearts and minds (see Rom 2:13-16).  It is Christ - in Whose merits they, just like us, were written in the Book of Life - Who judges whether one - who lived either before or after the cross - is an overcomer or not.  And overcomers will not be blotted out from it. 

[pnattmbtc]

It is in Step 2 - what I call the 2nd Dimension of the Gospel or the Present Tense of Salvation - that believing in Christ happens.  But there are people - just like those who were born before the cross, those who lived and died in far flung areas yet unreached by Christian missionaries,etc. - who have no personal knowledge about our and THEIR Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Their overcoming of evil, as with us, is relative to what were written in their hearts and minds (see Rom 2:13-16).  It is Christ - in Whose merits they, just like us, were written in the Book of Life - Who judges whether one - who lived either before or after the cross - is an overcomer or not.  And overcomers will not be blotted out from it. 

I'd like to concentrate on those who have heard the Gospel.  Here's what I see happens:

1.The person hears the Gospel, and is convicted by the Holy Spirit.

2.The person responds by repenting, confessing sin, and receiving Christ as his personal Savior.

3.Then the person can start overcoming evil with good, as a result of faith in Christ.

Do we agree here?

[LifeHiscost]

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

 

[LifeHiscost]

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

That was indicating pnattmbtc's last post.

[Samie]

I'd like to concentrate on those who have heard the Gospel.  Here's what I see happens:

1.The person hears the Gospel, and is convicted by the Holy Spirit.

2.The person responds by repenting, confessing sin, and receiving Christ as his personal Savior.

3.Then the person can start overcoming evil with good, as a result of faith in Christ.

Do we agree here?

Overcoming implies a fight to be won. I believe, overcoming starts right at the point in time where one leaves infancy and on to the age of responsibility or accountability where a fight to be won exists for him.  Only God knows when this occurs for an individual.  And God alone knows whether one is overcoming evil or is overcome by evil.

The Ethiopian eunuch comes to mind. I believe he had been overcoming evil with good even BEFORE his encounter with Philip. Imagine traveling from a far country just to worship the true God! But since accountability or responsibility is commensurate with a person's level of spiritual maturity, the eunuch who could have outgrown his current spiritual responsibilities was presented with a new responsibility - to know Christ and Him crucified, that he might perhaps bring and share that knowledge with those in Ethiopia. And he accepted that new responsibility.

But hypothetically, had the eunuch died before his encounter with Philip, I believe, his name will not be blotted out from the Book of Life.

[pnattmbtc]

Overcoming implies a fight to be won. I believe, overcoming starts right at the point in time where one leaves infancy and on to the age of responsibility or accountability where a fight to be won exists for him.  Only God knows when this occurs for an individual.  And God alone knows whether one is overcoming evil or is overcome by evil.

The Ethiopian eunuch comes to mind. I believe he had been overcoming evil with good even BEFORE his encounter with Philip. Imagine traveling from a far country just to worship the true God! But since accountability or responsibility is commensurate with a person's level of spiritual maturity, the eunuch who could have outgrown his current spiritual responsibilities was presented with a new responsibility - to know Christ and Him crucified, that he might perhaps bring and share that knowledge with those in Ethiopia. And he accepted that new responsibility.

But hypothetically, had the eunuch died before his encounter with Philip, I believe, his name will not be blotted out from the Book of Life.

I agree with most of this.  In particular, the part about the Eunich seems fine to me.  It brings to mind the following quote:

Those whom Christ commends in the judgment may have known little of theology, but they have cherished His principles. Through the influence of the divine Spirit they have been a blessing to those about them. Even among the heathen are those who have cherished the spirit of kindness; before the words of life had fallen upon their ears, they have befriended the missionaries, even ministering to them at the peril of their own lives. Among the heathen are those who worship God ignorantly, those to whom the light is never brought by human instrumentality, yet they will not perish. Though ignorant of the written law of God, they have heard His voice speaking to them in nature, and have done the things that the law required. Their works are evidence that the Holy Spirit has touched their hearts, and they are recognized as the children of God. (DA 638)

I do have a question about this part however:

And God alone knows whether one is overcoming evil or is overcome by evil.

In first John, John tells us that he writes us these things that we might know we have eternal life.  If we know we have eternal life, do we know we are overcoming evil?  Or is it possible for us to know we have eternal life, but not know we are overcoming evil?

These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. (1 John 5:13)

[Samie]

I agree with most of this.  In particular, the part about the Eunich seems fine to me.  It brings to mind the following quote:

Those whom Christ commends in the judgment may have known little of theology, but they have cherished His principles. Through the influence of the divine Spirit they have been a blessing to those about them. Even among the heathen are those who have cherished the spirit of kindness; before the words of life had fallen upon their ears, they have befriended the missionaries, even ministering to them at the peril of their own lives. Among the heathen are those who worship God ignorantly, those to whom the light is never brought by human instrumentality, yet they will not perish. Though ignorant of the written law of God, they have heard His voice speaking to them in nature, and have done the things that the law required. Their works are evidence that the Holy Spirit has touched their hearts, and they are recognized as the children of God. (DA 638)

 I surmise you had a nice discussion in SS Class last Sabbath regarding this.

I do have a question about this part however:

In first John, John tells us that he writes us these things that we might know we have eternal life.  If we know we have eternal life, do we know we are overcoming evil?  Or is it possible for us to know we have eternal life, but not know we are overcoming evil?

These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. (1 John 5:13)

I believe every one knows whether he is overcoming evil or not, based on what God has written in his heart and mind. 

When I wrote that God alone knows whether one is overcoming evil with good or not, I mean He is the ULTIMATE & final Judge whether one has overcome evil with good or he is overcome by evil.  Those He judges to be overcomers will not be blotted out from the Book of Life. And judgment comes only when a person dies (Heb 9:27).  There's hope of overcoming evil while still alive.

As to having eternal life, for as long as one's name remain written in the Book of Life, he has eternal life.  His enjoyment of it will depend upon whether his name is still in the Book of Life when Jesus comes again (Rom 2:5-11; Matt 16:27; Rev 22:12; 21:27).

[pnattmbtc]

I surmise you had a nice discussion in SS Class last Sabbath regarding this.

You're right!  I taught this week, so that was nice. 

I believe every one knows whether he is overcoming evil or not, based on what God has written in his heart and mind. 

When I wrote that God alone knows whether one is overcoming evil with good or not, I mean He is the ULTIMATE & final Judge whether one has overcome evil with good or he is overcome by evil.  Those He judges to be overcomers will not be blotted out from the Book of Life. And judgment comes only when a person dies (Heb 9:27).  There's hope of overcoming evil while still alive.

As to having eternal life, for as long as one's name remain written in the Book of Life, he has eternal life.  His enjoyment of it will depend upon whether his name is still in the Book of Life when Jesus comes again (Rom 2:5-11; Matt 16:27; Rev 22:12; 21:27).

His enjoyment of it will depend upon whether or not he knows Christ.  Christ is the focal point, not the book of life.  This is an important point.  The book of life is mentioned only incidentally in Scripture in just a couple of places, and by different names.  No Bible writer made a theology out of it, just a couple of remarks.  Christ, on the other hand, is what Scripture is all about, from beginning to end.  He said, "You search the scriptures, trying to find life in them, but they are they which testify of Me.  But you won't come to Me that you might have life." (from memory).

We need Christ!  He knocks at the door of our hearts, asking to come in, and if we respond, then we pass from being "none of His" (Romans 8) to being one of His. 

[Samie]

You're right!  I taught this week, so that was nice. 

His enjoyment of it will depend upon whether or not he knows Christ.  Christ is the focal point, not the book of life.  This is an important point.  The book of life is mentioned only incidentally in Scripture in just a couple of places, and by different names.  No Bible writer made a theology out of it, just a couple of remarks.  Christ, on the other hand, is what Scripture is all about, from beginning to end.  He said, "You search the scriptures, trying to find life in them, but they are they which testify of Me.  But you won't come to Me that you might have life." (from memory).

We need Christ!  He knocks at the door of our hearts, asking to come in, and if we respond, then we pass from being "none of His" (Romans 8) to being one of His. 

Whose revelation is the book Revelation?  It was Christ Who Himself spelled out the importance of being written in the Book of Life! Please again read Rev 20:15 and Rev 21:27. For me, the Book of Life is the evidence that a person - whether he lived before or after the cross - is in Christ, in Whose merits all of us were written there. Yes, He is the focal point of the Gospel, which is Good News for every one, that's why we all were written there. But those Whom He sees unfit for heaven, He blots out from it; those who are, He will not blot out (Rev 3:5). 

You were saying that people's enjoyment of life eternal is dependent upon their knowing Christ or not.  Are you including those people who in DA 638 are described as "those who worship God ignorantly, those to whom the light is never brought by human instrumentality"?  Are you saying these people have known Christ because in DA 638 they are recognized as the children of God and that they will not perish?  DA 638 comes to me as saying these people have no personal knowledge about Christ.

[pnattmbtc]

Me: His enjoyment of it will depend upon whether or not he knows Christ.  Christ is the focal point, not the book of life.  This is an important point.  The book of life is mentioned only incidentally in Scripture in just a couple of places, and by different names.  No Bible writer made a theology out of it, just a couple of remarks.  Christ, on the other hand, is what Scripture is all about, from beginning to end.  He said, "You search the scriptures, trying to find life in them, but they are they which testify of Me.  But you won't come to Me that you might have life." (from memory).

We need Christ!  He knocks at the door of our hearts, asking to come in, and if we respond, then we pass from being "none of His" (Romans 8) to being one of His. 

Samie: Whose revelation is the book Revelation?  It was Christ Who Himself spelled out the importance of being written in the Book of Life! Please again read Rev 20:15 and Rev 21:27. For me, the Book of Life is the evidence that a person - whether he lived before or after the cross - is in Christ, in Whose merits all of us were written there. 

It seems more of a record than evidence.

Yes, He is the focal point of the Gospel, which is Good News for every one, that's why we all were written there. But those Whom He sees unfit for heaven, He blots out from it; those who are, He will not blot out (Rev 3:5). 

Which is again simply a record of reality.  It's the reality that's the really important thing, not the record of it.

You were saying that people's enjoyment of life eternal is dependent upon their knowing Christ or not.  

The Scriptures teach this in many places.  Jesus Himself taught this.  For example, "Depart from Me, I never knew you." (knowing Christ denotes a relationship which goes in both directions).

Are you including those people who in DA 638 are described as "those who worship God ignorantly, those to whom the light is never brought by human instrumentality"?  

Yes.

Are you saying these people have known Christ because in DA 638 they are recognized as the children of God and that they will not perish?  DA 638 comes to me as saying these people have no personal knowledge about Christ.  

It says the know little of theology, but they know his voice.  The context also says that they are born of God and know God. (look at the immediately preceding paragraph).

[Samie]

It seems more of a record than evidence.

And records can be testimonial evidence, too.  And I am offering the Book of Life as proof of truth in this discussion. I am sure it is not hearsay, because God wrote the Book of Life.