Robert Posted September 27, 2015 Author Posted September 27, 2015 First, because you have added "sell EVERYTHING" which is not in the verse. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." NIV Luke 18:22 Sell all your possessions and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me." NLT sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me. KJV Quote
Robert Posted September 27, 2015 Author Posted September 27, 2015 Second, because, like you, I know that Christians are never told to sell all they have and have nothing left for themselves. I bet you have not done what you suggest I do? Or will you blame this on inherent fallen nature? Christ doesn't say look at others....His law says, "do this and live, disobey and die" The law demands you love others as you naturally love yourself by birth. Why aren't you, through your will, doing this? Quote
Wingnut Posted September 27, 2015 Posted September 27, 2015 You don't have agape by birth. You have only self-love. You can't produce agape; you can only produce self-love. All attempts, through the will, to produce self-love always ends up producing only self-righteousness. When others see agape from a believer, it's not his nature they see, but God's nature through him. You are fixated with agape. I don't think you understand agape fully however. Agape seems to be whatever you define it to be to suit your post. Can we settle on agape as being outgoing (non-selfish) love for others. By this definition, even head-hunting primitive tribes have agape because they love their children with a passion, even going hungry to feed their young. Again, this is an act of will on the part of the mother, with the nurturing instinct which even animals have. This is all pretty close to any definition of agape. But I am sure you have another definition of agape which folks had before the fall, but somehow lost as they tripped and "fell". Quote
Robert Posted September 27, 2015 Author Posted September 27, 2015 (edited) Third, because if I gave all away, I could not provide for my own and would be worse than an infidel. Christ didn't have children. You chose to bring children into a wicked world. Was that wise? A lot of welfare moms have kids for selfish reasons too....They have kids for $$$$.... I mean I can play this game all day. My point, is we are selfish. That comes from within....It's our nature. We always justify living for self. Edited September 27, 2015 by Robert Quote
Wingnut Posted September 27, 2015 Posted September 27, 2015 Christ didn't have children. You chose to bring children into a wicked world. Was that wise? A lot of welfare moms do the same....They have kids for $$$$.... I mean I can play this game all day. My point, is we are selfish. That comes from within....It's our nature. We always justify living for self. You have such a dark view of this world and us humans. To me the glass is more than half full. This world is wonderful, and I am so grateful to have brought children into the world at exactly the best time in human history when we have technology, freedom, peace, education, health-care, rights, internet so I can chat to you as if we were neighbours. So it was a great unselfish act. And I kept a list of all I did for my child, and at current fees, he ows me millions. No we are not inherently selfish or evil or anything other than what God created us to be. God made us, so any objections to the way He made us or this world you will have to take up with Him. Quote
Robert Posted September 27, 2015 Author Posted September 27, 2015 (edited) Fifth, if I were to sell land and give it to the church as in early acts, then I would expect you to do the same and sustain me after I am destitute - which is what they were doing. Alright...finally, a good answer. That's why if you live a life of agape, in this wicked world based on self, you'll have nothing. Jesus had nothing because He exercised only agape. He continually said no to our nature that He assumed at the incarnation. You and I have possessions because we still retain a sinful nature. BTW, the last generation of Christians (who go through the time of Jacob's trouble) "loved not their lives even unto death". They are destitute. They are poor. No self-seeking and self-love are in their lives because they are totally depending on Christ. Hence the divine nature is completely overriding these believers' fallen nature and only Christ will be seen. But, that's another subject. Edited September 27, 2015 by Robert Quote
Robert Posted September 27, 2015 Author Posted September 27, 2015 (edited) In later Acts, socialism no longer existed - capitalism reigned. Socialism? You mean Biblical socialism, which is agape love among the believers. Capitalism is based on lending money for interest. This goes against the Bible. Not only this, Capitalism is a system based not on agape, but the love of self. It won't be in heaven. Edited September 27, 2015 by Robert Quote
Robert Posted September 27, 2015 Author Posted September 27, 2015 Seventh, the call in Matt 18 to the young rich ruler to go sell all was a call to be the 13th apostle. Apostles were expected to give up all since they would be on the move from hence. None of this pertains today unless the Holy Spirit makes an exception to this rule for you. Eighth - you introduced this giving as a total red herring to the original discussion No, the RYR wanted to know what good thing he could do to win heaven by his law keeping. Jesus gave him the law and He summed it as follows: "You shall love your neighbor as you love yourself" Please notice there's only one command, not two. It not a red herring because I have proven that by your will you can't just do God's will. You have a sinful, fallen, vile nature. As do we all....Just saying... Quote
Wingnut Posted September 27, 2015 Posted September 27, 2015 Socialism? You mean Biblical socialism, which is agape love among the believers. Capitalism is based on lending money for interest. This goes against the Bible. Not only this, Capitalism is a system based not on agape, but the love of self. It won't be in heaven. By capitalism, I mean private ownership of property. Christ was obsessed with parables of folks owning stuff in the NT. Women had 10 coins, widows had mites, virgins owned lamps, people were encouraged not to bury money but to give it to the bank to gain usury etc. Quote
Robert Posted September 27, 2015 Author Posted September 27, 2015 (edited) This world is wonderful, and I am so grateful to have brought children into the world at exactly the best time in human history when we have technology, freedom, peace, education, health-care, rights, internet so I can chat to you as if we were neighbours. Ignorance is bliss....We live in a world dominated by sin....We live in a world dominated by "the god of this world" And on and on.... Edited September 27, 2015 by Robert Quote
Robert Posted September 27, 2015 Author Posted September 27, 2015 (edited) No we are not inherently selfish or evil or anything other than what God created us to be. God made us, so any objections to the way He made us or this world you will have to take up with Him. God made us in Adam, perfect. But Adam fell before he had children. When Adam had offspring he passed on to them (no fault of their own) a human nature that knew only self-love. Every sin we commit is because of self-love. Why does one steal? Self-love Why does on commit adultery? Self-love Why does one covet (lust)? Self-love. Why does one refuse to see himself a sinner in need of Christ? Self-love In fact this states it best: Using man as his tool, Satan has developed a kingdom (the Bible refers to it as “the kingdom of this world”) that is based entirely on the principle of self and which is in complete opposition and contradiction to the “kingdom of heaven.” Everything, therefore, that goes to make up this worldly system (kosmos) — nationalism, tribalism, politics, education, commerce, recreation, sports, social clubs, technology, etc. — is founded upon the principle of love of self, even though at times this principle may not be obvious. According to 1 John 2:16, “all that is in the world” (i.e., without exception) is based or founded upon lust (i.e., love of self). Edited September 27, 2015 by Robert Quote
Wingnut Posted September 27, 2015 Posted September 27, 2015 Ignorance is bliss....We live in a world dominated by sin....We live in a world dominated by "the god of this world" Who created the thorns and pain in childbirth after Adam was chased from Eden - God or Satan. The "god of this world" does not mean that he created this world, its thorns and its labor and sweat to produce. All that it means is that Satan can con as many as possible to follow him - just as he did Eve. This is a beautiful world, about which God said on every day of creation that it was very good. This did not change to awful after "the fall" since there was not a fall. What there was was God seeing that when conditions are perfect, folks do not need God. That is why Adam and Eve were ripe to not need God. They were Laodicean even before "the fall". God just made things mildly unpleasant enough that we would have some motivation to need Him. Quote
Robert Posted September 27, 2015 Author Posted September 27, 2015 (edited) Who created the thorns and pain in childbirth after Adam was chased from Eden - God or Satan. Gen 3:16 To the woman He said: "I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception; In pain you shall bring forth children; Your desire shall be for your husband, And he shall rule over you." 17 Then to Adam He said, "Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, 'You shall not eat of it': "Cursed is the ground for your sake; In toil you shall eat of it All the days of your life. 18 Both thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you, And you shall eat the herb of the field. 19 In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread Till you return to the ground, For out of it you were taken; For dust you are, And to dust you shall return." God is sovereign, yet He foresaw the entrance of sin and allowed it. He allowed it for a purpose that we do not fully understand this side of eternity, but because He is sovereign and because without Him sin couldn't exist (not that He created sin) He assumes the responsibility for all sin until the day of atonement. Then it will placed on Satan, the scapegoat. Or, as the book Light on the dark side of God, suggests: Principle: God sees and describes Himself as doing what He does not prevent. Since God could have prevented these incidents but chose not to do so, He depicts Himself as the actual instrument or performing agent. Note how often He describes them as His own doing in vivid, convincing terms. ...Why would God choose to so express Himself? His reason is not unknown in the human realm. Edited September 27, 2015 by Robert 8thdaypriest 1 Quote
Wingnut Posted September 27, 2015 Posted September 27, 2015 Robert All the photos of disasters which you searched the world to find... Meanwhile, all around where you there is beauty, birds chirping, scented flowers, children playing in the street, rain in due season, people around you who love you, abundance of food, clean running water, houses which could house a small village, money in the bank, law and order....Or is this just my neighbourhood? Quote
Wingnut Posted September 27, 2015 Posted September 27, 2015 Using man as his tool, Satan has developed a kingdom (the Bible refers to it as “the kingdom of this world”) that is based entirely on the principle of self and which is in complete opposition and contradiction to the “kingdom of heaven.” Everything, therefore, that goes to make up this worldly system (kosmos) — nationalism, tribalism, politics, education, commerce, recreation, sports, social clubs, technology, etc. — is founded upon the principle of love of self, even though at times this principle may not be obvious. According to 1 John 2:16, “all that is in the world” (i.e., without exception) is based or founded upon lust (i.e., love of self). All that is in the world that causes us to lust is evil. That is a far cry from "without exception" everything. We are told to love others as we love ourselves. Nothing wrong with love of self. In fact, we often need to love self to know how to love others likewise. Love of self is not of itself wrong. Love of self to the exclusion of all others is. And the world, drugs, sex and rock and roll is not a problem if you do not lust after it. Again, the mind is where the problem lies, not the world. Two people could be in the same situation, and one is tempted to sin, and one is not. Likewise, I can see the world as beautiful and good because all around me I just see the heavens proclaiming the glory of God, and the firmament shows his handiwork. I can even admire a beautiful woman in a bikini and see His handiwork because there is no lust in my heart. Quote
Robert Posted September 27, 2015 Author Posted September 27, 2015 (edited) Robert All the photos of disasters which you searched the world to find... Meanwhile, all around where you there is beauty, birds chirping, scented flowers, children playing in the street, rain in due season, people around you who love you, abundance of food, clean running water, houses which could house a small village, money in the bank, law and order....Or is this just my neighbourhood? I guess you are enjoying your heaven now....Where do you live, Mayberry? PS: Don't turn on the evening news. And, BTW, I'm sure the folks in the twin towers felt pretty good about their lives and communities too, until... Edited September 27, 2015 by Robert Quote
Robert Posted September 27, 2015 Author Posted September 27, 2015 We are told to love others as we love ourselves. Nothing wrong with love of self. Really, what chapter and verse is that found in? Quote
pnattmbtc Posted September 27, 2015 Posted September 27, 2015 (edited) Hi Pnattmbtc So by logic alone (no science or chapter and verse) you ask "how else could it be passed from one generation to the next?" My whole argument is that no sinful nature is passed from one generation to the next, so that solves it for me. But to play your answer out a bit, when Lucifer "fell" did he pass his "fall" from himself to his fellow demons by a change of DNA? They don't have children, so this is a moot point. Or did they each of their own free will "fall" simply by a change of mindset? And when Lucifer "fell", at what stage did his DNA change? There is no mention by the way of God changing Mankind's DNA anywhere in the Eden story. Since the word DNA didn't exist, how could this have been mentioned? However, we can infer what happened by reading the story, and there is the rest of scripture to consider as well. And before Adam and Eve "fell" they were clearly conflicted over a very simple choice of to eat or not to eat. This isn't germane. Clearly their DNA had to be intact before the "fall" yet they "fell" anyway, with intact DNA. They did not need DNA to "fall". Nor is this. And neither do I need DNA to explain why all of us, Paul included and Christ (with pretty good DNA) are conflicted at times as to whether to do our own or the Father's will. Why do you think Christ had "pretty good DNA"? Regarding DNA, something happened at the time of the fall which caused Adam and Eve's nature to become fallen, which fallen nature was passed on to their children. If you disagree with this, there are two possible points of disagreement: 1.Nothing happened which caused Adam and Eve's nature to change. 2.Even though their nature became fallen, they did not pass that fallen nature on to their children. So it is upon these points that comments should be made. Regarding Christ's DNA, we are told that He took the same nature, or flesh, that we did (e.g. Heb. 2:14), which I understand to mean that His DNA was like ours. I'm not sure which of these points you're disagreeing with (maybe all of them), so I'll await your response. Edited September 27, 2015 by pnattmbtc to improve the post Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Wingnut Posted September 27, 2015 Posted September 27, 2015 Really, what chapter and verse is that found in? Lev 19:18, Mat 19:19, Mat 22:29, Mar 12:33, Luke 10:27, Rom 13:9 etc. If loving neighbour is good, why is loving them AS thyself wrong? Love of self is good. The most miserable folks you don't want to spend eternity around, are those who don't love themselves. Quote
pnattmbtc Posted September 27, 2015 Posted September 27, 2015 Ignorance is bliss....We live in a world dominated by sin....We live in a world dominated by "the god of this world" And on and on.... Really? Wall Street with abortion thing? Quote Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Wingnut Posted September 27, 2015 Posted September 27, 2015 They don't have children, so this is a moot point. Since the word DNA didn't exist, how could this have been mentioned? However, we can infer what happened by reading the story, and there is the rest of scripture to consider as well. This isn't germane. Nor is this. Why do you think Christ had "pretty good DNA"? Christ had pretty good DNA because half of it (23 chromosomes) came from the Father who presumably does not have "fallen" DNA. I don't know the biology of spirit beings, but I would guess they have no DNAsince DNA is needed for reproduction, and angels of heaven do not marry or reproduce. Quote
Robert Posted September 27, 2015 Author Posted September 27, 2015 Lev 19:18, Mat 19:19, Mat 22:29, Mar 12:33, Luke 10:27, Rom 13:9 etc. Okay, I see that you found your Bible....Good, let's examine Rom 13:9 “Love your neighbor as you love yourself.” How many commands, Wingnut? Quote
Robert Posted September 27, 2015 Author Posted September 27, 2015 (edited) The most miserable folks you don't want to spend eternity around, are those who don't love themselves. Then, I suggest not spending eternity with Christ, because He loved you more than Himself in that He was willing to say goodbye to life forever, so that sinners like yourself could have heaven. If He had loved himself, He would have come down off the cross and blinked His executioners out of existence. That's self-love. Edited September 27, 2015 by Robert Quote
Robert Posted September 27, 2015 Author Posted September 27, 2015 (edited) Really? Wall Street with abortion thing? Wall street is about greed and the love of money, which is self-love. Abortion is about being inconvenienced by a pregnancy so the mother decides to murder it. That human life is in the way of the mother's future prosperity, etc ($$$). Edited September 27, 2015 by Robert Quote
Wingnut Posted September 27, 2015 Posted September 27, 2015 Okay, I see that you found your Bible....Good, let's examine Rom 13:9 “Love your neighbor as you love yourself.” How many commands, Wingnut? There are 613 commandments in the Torah and 1050 in the NT of which to love neighbour as self is one. Quote
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