Forgiveness of sin

[Robert]

There are 613 commandments in the Torah and 1050 in the NT of which to love neighbour as self is one.

Good dodge....

Let's go to Paul:

Gal 5:13 You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love. 14 The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as you love yourself."  

Now, how many commands are in the commandment, "Love your neighbor as you love yourself."?

Edited September 27, 2015 by Robert

[Wingnut]

Regarding DNA, something happened at the time of the fall which caused Adam and Eve's nature to become fallen, which fallen nature was passed on to their children.  If you disagree with this, there are two possible points of disagreement:

1.Nothing happened which caused Adam and Eve's nature to change.

2.Even though their nature became fallen, they did not pass that fallen nature on to their children.

So it is upon these points that comments should be made.

 

Nothing happened because there was no "fall".  We invented the concept of a "fall".  Instead of "the Devil made me do it" we can say "the fall made me do it".  Both are just excuses.  My will makes me do it.

[Robert]

My will makes me do it.

Okay, your will is weak...Therefore it's controlled by something if you can't control it.  That would be your sinful nature....

BTW, welcome, you're new (18 posts) and you've really picked a topic that's very controversial because it is unbibical, but you are entitled to your opinion. 

Edited September 27, 2015 by Robert

[Robert]

Good dodge....

Let's go to Paul:

Gal 5:13 You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love. 14 The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as you love yourself."  

Now, how many commands are in the commandment, "Love your neighbor as you love yourself."?

Yes?

[pnattmbtc]

Wall street is about greed and the love of money, which is self-love.

Abortion is about being inconvenienced by a pregnancy so the mother decides to murder it.  That human life is in the way of the mother's future prosperity, etc  ($$$).

I understood, but seems a bit, arg, forgot the word, anyway, a bit much.  The abortion thing was pretty horrible.

[Wingnut]

Okay, your will is weak...Therefore it's controlled by something if you can't control it.  That would be your sinful nature....

My will is mostly neutral (such as when I watch the rugby World Cup.  Sometimes I will to show love and that makes my will good.  Sometimes my will makes me sin and that is bad.  But all the time its my will at work - not some unproven fallen nature.

[pnattmbtc]

Nothing happened because there was no "fall".  We invented the concept of a "fall".  Instead of "the Devil made me do it" we can say "the fall made me do it".  Both are just excuses.  My will makes me do it.

I don't know you, so please tell me a bit about yourself, so I know what you are coming from; not personally, but theologically.  Are you a Christian?  Are you an SDA?  Do you believe in divine inspiration, in regards to the Bible?  I'm "yes" to all these.  I'm simply wanting to get an idea of a starting off point to help communication.  Thanks.

[Wingnut]

Yes?

I dont understand the question re how many commands in loving neighbour as self.  What I do understand is that loving self is the standard for loving others, so loving self can only be as good as loving others.

[Wingnut]

I don't know you, so please tell me a bit about yourself, so I know what you are coming from; not personally, but theologically.  Are you a Christian?  Are you an SDA?  Do you believe in divine inspiration, in regards to the Bible?  I'm "yes" to all these.  I'm simply wanting to get an idea of a starting off point to help communication.  Thanks.

This is an SDA forum and I attend a SDA church, but I believe in sola scriptura and using my grey matter.  Yes I believe in divine inspiration, and the Bible and yes I am a baptised Christian.

[Wingnut]

Thanks for the discussion.  Its midnight here so I am off to sleep.

Its a beautiful world, a privilege to be alive today, and I look forward to all the good God will do for all of us tomorrow.

[pnattmbtc]

This is an SDA forum and I attend a SDA church, but I believe in sola scriptura and using my grey matter.  Yes I believe in divine inspiration, and the Bible and yes I am a baptised Christian.

Ok, thx for your responses.  Until tomorrow.

[8thdaypriest]

Who created the thorns and pain in childbirth after Adam was chased from Eden - God or Satan.

The "god of this world" does not mean that he created this world, its thorns and its labor and sweat to produce.

All that it means is that Satan can con as many as possible to follow him - just as he did Eve.

This is a beautiful world, about which God said on every day of creation that it was very good.  

This did not change to awful after "the fall" since there was not a fall.  What there was was God seeing that when conditions are perfect, folks do not need God.  That is why Adam and Eve were ripe to not need God.  They were Laodicean even before "the fall".  God just made things mildly unpleasant enough that we would have some motivation to need Him.

"MIldly unpleasant" ??  I don't think you've ever lived with chronic pain for years and years and years.  I realize that things could be much, much worse.  I could be living in a mud hut, as a sex slave captive of ISIS.  But that's my point.  The WHOLE creation groans in pain, longing to be delivered. 

[8thdaypriest]

Then, I suggest not spending eternity with Christ, because He loved you more than Himself in that He was willing to say goodbye to life forever, so that sinners like yourself could have heaven.

If He had loved himself, He would have come down off the cross and blinked His executioners out of existence. That's self-love.

 

Personally, I believe that God WANTED children.  He WANTED someone to love.  So God beget a Son in His exact image, and through that Son, He created angels and then mankind.  God WANTED those angels, and those human beings to love Him in return, and to recognize Him as the source of all.  And yes - that is what would have been "good" for those created beings. 

But don't erase God's WILL (desire) from the story. 

[Robert]

I dont understand the question re how many commands in loving neighbour as self.  

What I do understand is that loving self is the standard for loving others, so loving self can only be as good as loving others.

That last sentence is of human origin, not the Bible.  The Bible doesn't state what you wrote.

There's only one command: You are to love others as you love yourself.

It doesn't say:

1] Love your neighbor

and

2] Love yourself

Self-love is a given because we are born that way.  Of himself, David said: "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity; And in sin did my mother conceive me." Iniquity is a condition.  Because of the fall we are born "bent-to-self", which means we are born with self-love.  So we don't need to learn to love our selves; it's natural.

God's law demands that we take this self-love, bent it back out, and agape our neighbors.  There's no self-love in agape because "agape...is a love that is not self-seeking" 1 Cor 13:5 NIV

Ellen White: "In heaven itself this law was broken. Sin originated in self-seeking. Lucifer, the covering cherub, desired to be first in heaven"

 

[Wingnut]

"MIldly unpleasant" ??  I don't think you've ever lived with chronic pain for years and years and years.  I realize that things could be much, much worse.  I could be living in a mud hut, as a sex slave captive of ISIS.  But that's my point.  The WHOLE creation groans in pain, longing to be delivered. 

I am glad to see that even when one is having a terrible, horrible, no good, very bad day, you recognise that it could be worse.  That shows perspective. I certainly don't want to make light of any one's suffering.  When Paul says that "If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable" 1 Cor 15:19 this statement is true for him (who suffered much for Christ) but not true for us today.  There may come a time of persecution, but till then, that statement reflects a truth for Paul, but not for me.

I agree more with the words found in Desiderata when it says "with all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world".

 

[Wingnut]

That last sentence is of human origin, not the Bible.  The Bible doesn't state what you wrote.

There's only one command: You are to love others as you love yourself.

It doesn't say:

1] Love your neighbor

and

2] Love yourself

Self-love is a given because we are born that way.  Of himself, David said: "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity; And in sin did my mother conceive me." Iniquity is a condition.  Because of the fall we are born "bent-to-self", which means we are born with self-love.  So we don't need to learn to love our selves; it's natural.

God's law demands that we take this self-love, bent it back out, and agape our neighbors.  There's no self-love in agape because "agape...is a love that is not self-seeking" 1 Cor 13:5 NIV

Ellen White: "In heaven itself this law was broken. Sin originated in self-seeking. Lucifer, the covering cherub, desired to be first in heaven"

 

The most miserable people I know are those who don't first love themselves.  They have low self-esteem which makes them suicidal or semi-permanently depressed.  They cannot take a compliment.  They abuse themselves with cutting or anorexia or drugs or food or alcohol (just to escape their own heads).  Or they overwork or embark on great expeditions to win the love of a parent which was denied them in youth. Or they are continually trying to earn money to impress others so that others will "like them" on Facebook and in real life.  

Me, I am not on facebook nor striving to have as many folks "like me" or aprove of where I am currently picknicking or constantly taking selfies.  Without trying to sound narcissistic, I really like hanging out with me, because that means I am hanging out with someone who has a Polyannaish outlook on life as opposed to someone to whom the world is all doom and gloom.  And this outlook is no accident.  As a teen, my outlook was all doom and gloom, and it took a lot to change this.  Possibly I have gone too far   

Liking oneself is NOT wrong (but it may be going a bit far to "like" one's own posts).  Liking oneself and having a healthy self esteem is like having possessions and money.  You have to have it first to be able to give it away.

[Robert]

The most miserable people I know are those who don't first love themselves.  They have low self-esteem which makes them suicidal or semi-permanently depressed.  They cannot take a compliment.  They abuse themselves with cutting or anorexia or drugs or food or alcohol (just to escape their own heads).  Or they overwork or embark on great expeditions to win the love of a parent which was denied them in youth. Or they are continually trying to earn money to impress others so that others will "like them" on Facebook and in real life.  

Every human being is born with self-love.  We don’t have to try to love ourselves.  The day you do not love yourself you are a sick person. You would need to go to the hospital.

Even the person who commits suicide loves himself or herself.  They can’t face the issues of life.  They don’t care about how much it hurts their loved ones.  They want to get rid of their problem and the only way is suicide. So self-love is spontaneous.  Eros is a U-turn agape.  How many of you have ever prayed, “Dear Jesus, please help me to love myself.” Have you ever prayed that? No.

Let’s say you break the speed limit and a policeman stops you.  You plead with him.  You say, “Officer, I was in a hurry. I have an appointment.” Are you sorry because you love the policeman? Are you sorry because you love the law of the country or are you sorry because you love your pocket? Why are you pleading for mercy?

When the young man came to Jesus and said, “What good thing must I do to be saved?” he had missed the gospel.

Jesus said, “Keep the commandments.”

He said, “I have been keeping it since I was in Primary Sabbath School.”

Jesus said, “Alright, let me test you.  If you love your neighbour as yourself, then give your wealth to your neighbour and follow me and I will give you my wealth.”

Did he do it? No.  Why? Because he loved himself.  If you read further in the passage, you will come to Peter.  He was a wonderful fellow.  He spoke before he thought and he said, “Jesus, we have given up everything for you.  What is our reward?” The great Peter! Jesus knew that he still had not been fully converted.

Jesus said, “Peter you have not given up anything without receiving one hundred fold from me.” He did not rebuke Peter; He met him on his level.  But later on Peter understood the gospel and he was now ready to die for Christ.  That was afterwards.

Agape is the ingredient by which the law is kept.  Without agape you cannot keep the law.  Now here’s the problem.  Men do not have agape, they have only eros, which is self-love.  Self-love only knows how to sin.

Edited September 28, 2015 by Robert

[Robert]

Sweden is supposed to be the richest country in Europe and probably one of the richest countries in the world. The United States is the other.  Both these countries have a very high standard of living.  But do you know that the highest suicide rates in the world are in these two countries? Self-love, greed & self-seeking are the reasons for suicide.  

Edited September 28, 2015 by Robert

[Wingnut]

 

Self-love is a given because we are born that way.  Of himself, David said: "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity; And in sin did my mother conceive me." Iniquity is a condition.  Because of the fall we are born "bent-to-self", which means we are born with self-love.  So we don't need to learn to love our selves; it's natural.

The first three versions I reach for give a better translation.

Good News "I have been evil from the day I was born; from the time I was conceived, I have been sinful"

The Book"For I was born a sinner - yes from the moment my mother conceived me"

NIV "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me"

Do you know why babies technically are sinners from day one?  Not because of a "fallen nature" but because they are  inherently self-willed.  They demand attention at any time of the day or night and don't care a hoot about others.  As they grow, we teach then self control and to think of others besides themselves.  Again, it boils down to what I have said all along.  We were given by God self will and freedom to choose.  Its a free gift which carries with it great responsibility to choose right.  When we choose wrong we sin.  That simple.  Only in that sense are we born sinners.  Even If Eve had born a child before "the fall" the child would have faced the exact same thing as today and would have had to have been taught "fruit bad - don't touch".

[Wingnut]

Robert, please give me your definition of agape.

[Wingnut]

Agape is the ingredient by which the law is kept.  Without agape you cannot keep the law.  Now here’s the problem.  Men do not have agape, they have only eros, which is self-love.  Self-love only knows how to sin.

Robert, this Agape statement is at the heart of where your theology gets complicated and goes wrong.

Your statement about agape turns it into this spooky, twilight zone ingredient ("men do not have agape").

Likewise your belief in the "fallen nature" of man, is this mystical, spooky thing which may or may not reside in our genes which compels us to sin.

These inexplicable (to you, not me) ingredients which complicate human nature, just serve to confuse you.

Man CAN and DOES act in a loving, outgoing agape way even in the most pagan societies.  Does this please God? Yes in the sense that it is teaching even the pagans "agape".  Are these pagans saved?  No - because there is no other name given among men whereby we can be saved except through Christ.

Being saved means accepting Christ.  He sends the Parakletos or Comforter, or Holy Spirit to develop us in all spiritual gifts and fruits, including "agape".  Love, joy, peace, long-suffering, temperance, goodness, meekness, faith - there is nothing mystical here either.  Love or agape is just another trait we will to inculcate in our Walk.  Even pagans have the above - often in greater measure than Christians.  Cycle through Africa and they invite you in to dine and dwell.  Not so much in the Christianised west.

Making spooky what is not spooky just adds to confusion.

Edited September 28, 2015 by Wingnut

[Robert]

 They (infants) demand attention at any time of the day or night and don't care a hoot about others.  As they grow, we teach then self control and to think of others besides themselves.  Again, it boils down to what I have said all along.  We were given by God self will and freedom to choose.  Its a free gift which carries with it great responsibility to choose right.  When we choose wrong we sin.  That simple.  

What you are presenting is a do-it-yourself righteousness.  Another word for " do-it-yourself righteousness" is self-righteousness.  In other words all you need to do is chose to do right, and wallah, you're righteous.  

Where's the righteousness of Christ in your rhetoric?  Where's "with out Me (Christ) you can do nothing (nothing good)"? 

Edited September 28, 2015 by Robert

[Robert]

....your belief in the "fallen nature" of man, is this mystical, spooky thing which may or may not reside in our genes which compels us to sin.

I'm sorry that you chose to reject the Bible on this issue.  It plainly teaches that mankind possess a fallen, human nature and that without Christ, all we can do is obey the desires of that nature.

Edited September 28, 2015 by Robert

[Robert]

Being saved means accepting Christ.  He sends the ... Comforter, or Holy Spirit to develop us in all spiritual gifts and fruits, including "agape".  

Saved from what?

Your answer must be, "the curse of the law"

Christ came to save sinners, who are slaves to their self-love, from under His own law that condemns them.  Sinners can do nothing but sin.  They can't produce any righteousness, only pretend righteousness, which is self-righteousness (filthy garments).

To accept Christ you have to realize that you are 100% sinner, that is, there's nothing you do that is genuinely good.  When you see your true condition you are prepared to be clothed with the righteousness of Christ.

Secondly, after you receive Christ by faith, you must rest in His finished work of redemption.  This means that  you cannot add your works of the law to what Christ did 2000 years ago. If you are resting in His finished work, then, and only then, will the Spirit of God give you the gift of agape so that you can genuinely experience God's love in your life.

 

Edited September 28, 2015 by Robert

[Robert]

Robert, please give me your definition of agape.

"Agape...is not self-seeking" 1 Cor 13:5 NIV

If any doubt remains to what this means, Paul clears it up in 1 Cor 10:24

"Let no man seek his own, but every man another's wealth."

Let no man seek what?  His own wealth.  Instead seek to make your neighbor prosperous. Anything outside this is self-seeking and hence sin in the eyes of God's law.  

Remember that "the whole law", states Paul, is "love your neighbor as you love yourself".  Very clear!