Forgiveness of sin

[Robert]

Paul said "not looking to your own interests..."

I take this to read "not looking to your own interests [only]...."

But you added "only"....Your addition is not the Bible......

Let's look at a statement of Christ concerning self-interest:

Matt 8:19 "Then a scribe came and said to Him, "Teacher, I will follow You wherever You go."

Jesus said to him, "The foxes have holes and the birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay His head." 

Notice, Jesus had nothing because there was no self-seeking in His life.  He lived for others only.  Because He lived agape only, in a world that was dominated by self-love, He had nothing.

Now, I understand believers fall short of God's agape, but let's be honest, that makes us sinners.  Sinners need the imputed righteousness of Christ.  Yet, believing sinners are becoming more like Christ. That's why Ellen White, in giving common sense advice, stated, "There should be less proud self-seeking, less self-importance. When the members of the church are clothed with humility, when they put from them self-esteem and self-seeking, when they seek constantly to do God's will - then they will work together in harmony. God's Spirit is one. . . . " 5T 479

Edited September 30, 2015 by Robert

[Robert]

❝ The lover of self is a transgressor of the law. ❞ — Christ’s Object Lessons, p. 392

Edited September 30, 2015 by Robert

[Wingnut]

Your subordinating conjunction ("but") is an opinion not shared by Paul.  He plainly stated that agape is not self-seeking.  Sin is self-seeking, but not agape.  Living for self, in the eyes of the law, makes you a sinner.  Can't you stop your self-seeking using your will power?  No?  Why not?  You love self...you are a slave to your self-love.  Hence you have a nature that overrides your will power....That's Paul's whole point in Romans chapter 7

Welcome back Robert.  For a moment there I thought that you had actually gone and done what you suggested I do - sell all.  I see you still have your electronic device and I take it you are not posting from a street corner having sold your house.  I am just asking you to stop dodging the question.  

You said that with agape one would sell all and give to the poor.  I say that is extreme.

My point is that showing love to others does not have to be a zero-sum game of hurting or disadvantaging yourself.

The Bible says love others.  It assumes you will continue loving self (which ensures personal survival).

1 Thes 4:11 And that ye study to be quiet, and to DO YOUR OWN BUSINESS and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you.

Eph 5:29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh, but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church.

Nourishing and cherishing your own flesh is not a sin.  Working and spending time at your own business and interests is not a sin.

Always I ask myself "What does the Bible say".  Then I ask myself "What does it also say?"  

That is how one avoids building an extreme view on any subject including agape.

[LifeHiscost]

 

" 

Notice, Jesus had nothing because there was no self-seeking in His life.  He lived for others only.  Because He lived agape only, in a world that was dominated by self-love, He had nothing.

 

Please explain the seamless robe Jesus was wearing at His crucifixion, so valuable the soldiers that hung Him on the cross were unwilling to part it between them that each soldier might have a piece.

Methinks you strain at a gnat and swallow a camel just to prove a point.

 But first he must accept the conditions of discipleship. He must give himself unreservedly to God. At the Saviour’s call, John, Peter, Matthew, and their companions “left all, rose up, and followed Him.”

Luke 5:28

  The same consecration was required of the young ruler. And in this Christ did not ask a greater sacrifice than He Himself had made. “He was rich, yet for your sakes He became poor, that ye through His poverty might be rich.”

2 Corinthians 8:9

. The young man had only to follow where Christ led the way.

{COL 393.1}

   [/quote]

14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.....1 Corinthians 2

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[Wingnut]

❝ The lover of self is a transgressor of the law. ❞ — Christ’s Object Lessons, p. 392

This is a classical case of what did Ellen say, and what did she also say.

And what did Paul also say? "For no man ever yet hated his own flesh, but nourisheth and cherisheth it..." Eph 5:29

The looking after oneself is NOT the problem.  The problem is neglecting to nourish and cherish others AS you do to yourself.  This is not a zero-sum game.

[LifeHiscost]

This is a classical case of what did Ellen say, and what did she also say.

And what did Paul also say? "For no man ever yet hated his own flesh, but nourisheth and cherisheth it..." Eph 5:29

The looking after oneself is NOT the problem.  The problem is neglecting to nourish and cherish others AS you do to yourself.  This is not a zero-sum game.

God is Love! Jesus saves! 

[Wingnut]

God is Love! Jesus saves! 

Thanks a lot LifeHiscost.

In the final analysis, even after I have done all and sacrificed all in His service, "all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags" Is 64:6

Which brings us back to the only righteousness anyone has is imputed righteousness.  We don't have actual righteousness, before or after showing all that agape.

I know religious folks who have done far more for the LORD than me, almost suicidal with guilt and shame that they have not done enough for Him.

Jesus says to come to Him and He will give us rest.  His yolk is light.  Why?  Because all the guilt-inducing sermons that we have not done enough for the LORD, that we are holding up His coming by something we are failing to do...can lead us to think its all about us.

It's not about me and my agape works which score me righteousness points. Its about "with quietness they work, and eat their own bread" 2 Thes 3:12.  Its about "As we have therefore opportunity, let us do good unto all men..." Gal 6:10.  Its about "godliness with contentment is great gain" 

[Wingnut]

Is it a sign of our carnality and a proof of our fallen nature that we own stuff (instead of selling all to give to the poor)?  Is every possession a sign of us lacking agape?

1.  The OT assumes and legislates personal property.  This was God's chance to take slaves (who owned little) and establish a society in His image.  And what does God do - establish a society based on personal ownership.  In fact, God shows how he blesses folks by increasing their property.

2.  There are 2 main cases in the NT where folks are encouraged to sell some or all property.  The first is the rich young man in Matt 18 who Christ tells to go, sell all and come follow Him.  The second is around Pentecost, in the first chapters of Acts.  But what does the rest of the NT say?

3.  I claim that only some Apostles, who would be on the move spreading the Gospel were encouraged to unburden themselves of possessions.  This is what the rich young man was called to be - the 13th apostle.  If Christ walked past your house, knocked on your door, and invited you to be an apostle, that may be a reason to leave all distractions and follow Him.  In each case, Christ personally invited each apostle to leave all and follow him around for 3.5 years.  This was a specific and unique calling.

4.  Even so Peter continued to own a house (Math 8:14).  Why?  Because Peter had a wife, and it would have been a sin to put her onto the street.  There is evidence that they did not sell their boats either, because whenever the fishing for men got slow, they went back to fishing for fish.

5.  Christ lived in a family home for 31 years.  If he owned this house after Joseph died, Christ never made any effort to sell this home where Mary and Christ's brothers and sisters continued to live.  It is my belief that the reason Christ's mother and brothers stood outside a house desiring to speak to Jesus, is because this was their house in Capernahum (see Matt 12:47).

6.  Having dealt with the special case of apostles leaving possessions behind, lets look at the special case of that first Pentecost which Christ commanded the apostles to keep in Jerusalem after He had risen.  This too was a special, once off birth of the NT church, where the newborn church was baptised with the Holy Spirit, just as a born again believer is baptised with water.  There was a special, once off need for all these folks from foreign nations to remain in Jerusalem longer than just to keep Pentecost.  They had to organise a new movement.  This involved board and lodging these pilgrims for the time being until they returned to their respective nations.  This called for a special, once off demand for funding, which was met by folks voluntarily selling off land (no mention of selling all, including the homes they lived in).

7.  Having returned home there is ZERO evidence that Christians lived a socialist, communal lifestyle such as that exhibited temporarily in early Acts.  Each continued to own possessions, from which they were encouraged to give to the poor.

8.  Some time in the future, we may have to flee our homes and take to the hills to escape accepting the mark of the Beast.  Those attached to possessions may fail this test.  So there are occasions when locking the door and walking away from everything may be the smart thing to do (such as if you were a Jew living in Germany in 1939).    This would be the exception to the NT rule.  The NT rule shows Christians living all around the world, owning houses and possessions, not living in communes, or monasteries.  We do not see NT Christians taking vows of poverty or acting bizarrely.

For now, the defence rests.   

[Robert]

The Bible says love others.  It assumes you will continue loving self (which ensures personal survival).

I given you what the law of God states and you've rejected it. The law condemns self-love and demands only agape.  Agape doesn't seek its own wealth, but another's wealth.  There's no self-seeking in agape.  

1 Thes 4:11 And that ye study to be quiet, and to DO YOUR OWN BUSINESS and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you.

Here's the context:

1 Thess 4:11 Now about your love for one another we do not need to write to you, for you yourselves have been taught by God to love each other. 10 And in fact, you do love all of God’s family throughout Macedonia. Yet we urge you, brothers and sisters, to do so more and more, 11 and to make it your ambition to lead a quiet life: You should mind your own business and work with your hands, just as we told you, 12 so that your daily life may win the respect of outsiders and so that you will not be dependent on anybody.

Keep in mind how the churches worked then: Acts 4:2 All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of their possessions was their own, but they shared everything they had. 33 With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And God’s grace was so powerfully at work in them all 34 that there were no needy persons among them.

So yes, they worked.  They weren't idle and lazy, but they worked not for self, but for others.  The result?  No poverty.

We have poverty in this world because we have self-love, which leads to greed & coveting.  That's why Jesus said, "you will always have the poor with you"

Eph 5:29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh, but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church.

Yes, and in the early church everyone was feed and clothed.  Agape produced no poverty, but it was based on the following:

"Let no man seek his own, but every man another's wealth." 1 Cor 10:24.

BTW, notice what Paul said about greed (the love of self):

1 Tim 6:7 "For we brought nothing into the world, and we can take nothing out of it. 8 But if we have food and clothing,  we will be content with that.  9 People who want to get rich fall into temptation and a trap and into many foolish and harmful desires that plunge men into ruin and destruction. 10 For the love of money is a root of all kinds of evil."

The love of money is synonymous with self-love.  Why aren't you content with just food and clothing?  Why the preoccupation with a nice bank account, saving, 401K, a nice home, car, etc? Answer: self-love

The members in the church of Acts were not poor, but they didn't get their wealth from self-seeking.  They obtained it because others were living for them, and they others.  There's no self in agape.

Edited September 30, 2015 by Robert

[Robert]

 

Please explain the seamless robe Jesus was wearing at His crucifixion, so valuable the soldiers that hung Him on the cross were unwilling to part it between them that each soldier might have a piece.

Methinks you strain at a gnat and swallow a camel just to prove a point.

 

Did someone give this to Jesus, or did He have an extensive wardrobe at His Beverly Hills' mansion?

[Robert]

 In Heaven none will think of self, nor seek their own pleasure; but all, from pure, genuine love, will seek the happiness of the heavenly beings around them. (Ellen White)

[pnattmbtc]

Some of the problem here is semantic (not all; there are some actual differences of viewpoint too).  In this post, I'd like to get at the semantic problems.  The term "self-love" or "love of self" does not mean the same thing in Scripture, or the Spirit of Prophecy, as how the term is used now.  Until the 1960's or so, "self love" did not mean what we commonly understand it to mean now.  For example, the Ellen White quote "the lover of self is a transgressor of the law" shows that the meaning of the term has changed.  She was not saying that someone who takes care of himself, as Paul points out in Ephesians, is a transgressor of the law, so clearly she had something else in mind when she spoke of the "lover of self," and so does Scripture, as this phrase, until around the 60's, has not meant what it does now.  

If we're talking about the interpretation of the specific text to love your neighbor as your self, this cannot mean "love of self" in the sense of "nourishing the flesh" because nobody understood the phrase "lover of self" in such a manner until recently, as evidenced by the Ellen White quote.

What Jesus was saying was that instead of loving our self (which in context means putting our self first, or preferring our self) we should love our neighbor.  He wasn't saying that as we nourish our own flesh, we should take care of our neighbor.  I'm not arguing that this is a bad thought, just that this isn't the thought that Jesus was communicating in that specific text.

[Wingnut]

Some of the problem here is semantic (not all; there are some actual differences of viewpoint too).  In this post, I'd like to get at the semantic problems. 

The following type of self love IS objectionable.

 

Oh Lord it's hard to be humble
When you're perfect in every way.
I can't wait
To look in the mirror.
Cause I get better looking each day.
To know me is to love me.
I must be a hell of a man.
Oh Lord It's hard to be humble,
But I'm doing the best that I can. 

I used to have a girlfriend,
but I guess she just couldn't compete,
With all of these love-starved women,
Who keep cowering at my feet.
Oh I probably could find me another,
But I guess they're all in awe of me.
Who cares?
I never get lonesome.
Cause I treasure my own company.

[Chorus]

I guess you could say I'm a loner.
A cowboy out lone, tough, and proud.
I could have lots of friends
If I wanted.
But then I wouldn't stand out from the crowd.
Some folks say that I'm egotistical.
Hell I don't even know what that means.
I guess it has something to do
With the way that I fill out my skin tight with jeans.

[Chorus]

I'm doing the best that I can.

Songwriters: MAC DAVIS

It's Hard To Be Humble lyrics © BMG RIGHTS MANAGEMENT US, LLC

[Robert]

Agape produced no poverty, but it was based on the following:

"Let no man seek his own, but every man another's wealth." 1 Cor 10:24.

On the other hand, our competitive, dog eat dog capitalistic society creates poverty.  It's usually the "little guy" that gets outsourced or laid off for cheap, slave labor throughout our global world. In others words exploitation makes folks money in our global markets.  Is that based on agape, or self-love?  Why of course, self-love.  So Satan has created a world based on the love of self.  Those who have the advantage rise to the top; while those who are disadvantaged usually sink to the bottom.

Again, I especially like how Jack Sequeira puts it:

Using man as his tool, Satan has developed a kingdom (the Bible refers to it as “the kingdom of this world”) that is based entirely on the principle of self and which is in complete opposition and contradiction to the “kingdom of heaven.”  Everything, therefore, that goes to make up this worldly system (kosmos) — nationalism, tribalism, politics, education, commerce, recreation, sports, social clubs, technology, etc. — is founded upon the principle of love of self, even though at times this principle may not be obvious.  According to 1 John2:16, “all that is in the world” (i.e., without exception) is based or founded upon lust (i.e., love of self).

 The following movie gives you a glimpse into how things work in this wicked world:

Edited October 3, 2015 by Robert

[Robert]

And while I'm at it...

Traditionally speaking, SDA tend to overuse Rev 12:17 to prove that they are God's remnant, commandment keeping people. But is John the Revelator writing about believers who keep the letter of the law outwardly or believers resting in the finished work of redemption who are experiencing the latter rain as the did the church in Acts chapter 2 & 4?  

Also keep in mind the context of Rev 12:17 is about God's church being persecuted by Satan, through the world. Here we have a people solely clinging to the righteousness of Christ.  Because of this they will fully manifest God's agape.  This is the ultimate fruit of justification by faith to its fullest.  Hence it is said, "they loved not their lives even unto death."  There's no self-love....They've given up all possessions. All is vanity...all is vanity....

 

Edited October 3, 2015 by Robert

[Robert]

You might not like the song, but listen to what Johnny Cash thought of his fame and trophies just prior to his death:

[Wingnut]

And while I'm at it...

Traditionally speaking, SDA tend to overuse Rev 12:17 to prove that they are God's remnant, commandment keeping people. But is John the Revelator writing about believers who keep the letter of the law outwardly or believers resting in the finished work of redemption who are experiencing the latter rain as the did the church in Acts chapter 2 & 4?  

Also keep in mind the context of Rev 12:17 is about God's church being persecuted by Satan, through the world. Here we have a people solely clinging to the righteousness of Christ.  Because of this they will fully manifest God's agape.  This is the ultimate fruit of justification by faith to its fullest.  Hence it is said, "they loved not their lives even unto death."  There's no self-love....They've given up all possessions. All is vanity...all is vanity....

 

In the end time there is one commandment emphasised over and over which is a test command, just as not eating od the Tree of Knowledge was a test command to sort out believers from non-believers.  It is a black and white command.  

Revelation 13:17 | Read whole chapter | See verse in context

And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name

The command is to refuse the Mark of the Beast.

This Mark may or may not involve sabbath keeping.

But this mark definitely seems to involve receiving some sort of physical mark on hand or forehead related to 666 (or the equivalent Greek characters Chi...stigma).

Without this mark, one is an outcast from society, and cut off from the limited resources which the state controls - food, housing etc.

One is forced to go on the run.  

Hebrews 11:38 | Read whole chapter | See verse in context

(Of whom the world was not worthy they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth

Hebrews 11:38 is a prophesy of this time, and times like when the early Church fled Jerusalem for Pela, before Titus's siege in 69 AD.

It is during this time of the mark being enforced that the Gospel shall be preached in all the world for a witness - and then shall the end come.

We saints, by refusing this mark, will be prosecuted, persecuted and executed - as a witness.

The "lucky" ones will be on the run, bugging out in dens and caves.  If you have ever watched "Naked and Afraid" you know how unpleasant that will be.

 

 

[Samie]

It is during this time of the mark being enforced that the Gospel shall be preached in all the world for a witness - and then shall the end come.

The gospel since Luther's time is the same brand of gospel popularly being preached to the world till now, but Christ has not yet returned. I guess it is high time to know and understand the Gospel that Jesus wanted preached to all the world before He comes again.  Here's the thread on that.

[LifeHiscost]

The gospel since Luther's time is the same brand of gospel popularly being preached to the world till now, but Christ has not yet returned. I guess it is high time to know and understand the Gospel that Jesus wanted preached to all the world before He comes again.  Here's the thread on that.

 

We're seeing this promise being fulfilled NOW, in the lives of multiplied scores of evangelists preaching around the world, Seventh Day Adventists not excepted.

17And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

18And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

19And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

20The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

21And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.....Acts 2

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[pnattmbtc]

 It is the darkness of misapprehension of God that is enshrouding the world. Men are losing their knowledge of His character. It has been misunderstood and misinterpreted. At this time a message from God is to be proclaimed, a message illuminating in its influence and saving in its power. His character is to be made known. Into the darkness of the world is to be shed the light of His glory, the light of His goodness, mercy, and truth. (COL 415)

It doesn't seem to me that these issues are well understood, even within SDAism, let alone outside.