Forgiveness of sin

[Wingnut]

Exactly.....Hence there's no self-love in agape. 

In the command to love others as self, there is no command to stop loving self either.

Some posts back you said that if I did not love myself so much, I would sell all I have and give to the poor.

My question to you is, if you believe this, why have you not done that?

[Robert]

In the command to love others as self, there is no command to stop loving self either.

Where is the command to build up your own wealth in the following:

"Let no man seek his own, but every man another's wealth." 1 Cor 10:24

Again, agape doesn't have self-love in it.  If it does it isn't agape.

 

[LifeHiscost]

 

Again, agape doesn't have self-love in it.  If it does it isn't agape.

 

 

Where in the Scripture is "as we love ourself", instructed by God, negated?

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[pnattmbtc]

Me: I agree with this, especially the friend part.  How I think of this is that God will take everyone to heaven who will be happy there. 

Wingnut: Then we are on the same page.

That's good to see.  Here's a brief description of how I see things.

Given that God will take all to heaven who would be happy there, the question becomes, what is it that would make someone unhappy in heaven, and the short answer would be sin.  This begs the question as to what exactly this means, but to use the language of the quote from "The Great Controversy" (yes, that's what it was) it has to do with the values which one has incorporated in one's being; that's one way of putting.  What it is that we love?  Do we love truth, righteousness, unselfisheness, humility, graciousness, sevice?  These are just a few that come to mind, but basically, do we love the same things that God loves, things which are core to His being, attributes of His character?

I think God create Adam and Eve such that they did love these things, and were happy in God's presence.  But then the serpent tempted Eve, deceiving her into thinking that God did not have her best interests at heart. This was in essense the same temptation which led to the fall of the angels (that God was not trustworthy, and did not have the best interest of the angels at heart).

Given the problem that led to man's fall was doubt related to God's character, the solution is to restore God's character in man's mind.  As Scripture puts it, we are enemies, alientated in our own minds.  And this is what Jesus Christ did.  As John puts it, "No one has seen God at any time; His only Son, who knew Him best, has shown us what God is really like (John 1:18)".

By seeing the truth about God, man can be won back to trust and love God.  Through Christ, man can be forgiven, and reconciled.  The goodness of God leads man to repentance.

[Wingnut]

Where in the Scripture is "as we love ourself", instructed by God, negated?

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

Hi LifeHiscost

You hit that nail right on its head.  Even looking out for others does not negate looking out for yourself.

As Paul might have said "Doth not nature itself teach you that every organism which does not look after itself - dies".

[Wingnut]

 The goodness of God leads man to repentance.

I agree with your whole post.  Well put.

And you asked previously about the X we have to do.   The scripture quoted above is part of what I feel is essential to salvation - seeing God as good, loving, gracious.

The parable of the master who gave servants talents and told them to occupy till He came illustrates this.  To the one who perceived Him as being harsh (and went and hid his talent) He was harsh.  To the others who saw Him as reasonable and forgiving even if they messed  up with His money - He was reasonable.  As my walk progresses I see his loving kindness more clearly.

[Wingnut]

Where is the command to build up your own wealth in the following:

"Let no man seek his own, but every man another's wealth." 1 Cor 10:24

Again, agape doesn't have self-love in it.  If it does it isn't agape.

 

 

I agree with every scripture you throw at me.  But I think you are suggesting some kind of extremist view of these scriptures such as only work to increase others wealth while neglecting your own.  

Again I ask for examples out of your own life how you are doing this and surviving, as well as why you have not sold all - as you suggested I do earlier.

[pnattmbtc]

I think "love your neighbor as yourself" may be one of the most misunderstood verses in Scripture.  The difficult is with the word "as", which has many different possible meanings.  How this verse is usually understood is "Love your neighbor in the same way as you love yourself" as opposed to "Love your neighbor in the place of yourself".  Now is this second possibility actually grammatically possible?  Absoultely!  For example, consider the following sentence a nurse says to a patient "You will use this I.V. as food".  There may be better examples, but this is just to illustrate that "in the place of" or "in the role of" is an appropriate definition for the word "as" (see http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english-thesaurus/as, preposition #2).

To determine whether "love your neighbor as yourself" should be interpreted as "as you love youself, so should you love yourself" or "instead of loving yourself, love your neighbor" we would need to consider the rest of Scripture, and ask which of these phrases is more consistent with the message of Scripture.

[pnattmbtc]

Here's a text from the Spirit of Prophecy which highlights the different of "love of self" and "agape"

It is the love of self that destroys our peace. While self is all alive, we stand ready continually to guard it from mortification and insult; but when we are dead, and our life is hid with Christ in God, we shall not take neglects or slights to heart. We shall be deaf to reproach and blind to scorn and insult. “Love suffereth long, and is kind; love envieth not; love vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not its own, is not provoked, taketh not account of evil; rejoiceth not in unrighteousness, but rejoiceth with the truth; beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. Love never faileth.” 1 Corinthians 13:4-8 

I think there is a legitimate place for self respect, and modern psychology as emphasized this, but I don't believe that this is what "self-love" is meaning in Scripture.  So it's not the concept of self respect that's on trial, but the concept of "love of self" (as a negative thing).

[Wingnut]

 

I think there is a legitimate place for self respect, and modern psychology as emphasized this, but I don't believe that this is what "self-love" is meaning in Scripture.  So it's not the concept of self respect that's on trial, but the concept of "love of self" (as a negative thing).

“Love suffereth long, and is kind; love envieth not; love vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not its own, is not provoked, taketh not account of evil; rejoiceth not in unrighteousness, but rejoiceth with the truth; beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. Love never faileth.” 1 Corinthians 13:4-8 

 

I have never seen it before how much love of self there is in this definition of agape love.  If you do every one of the above you will have shown so much love and kindness to yourself, AS you are doing each of the above for others.  I will go through each one below...

“Love suffereth long, and is kind; - how wonderful it feels to resist reacting to provocation - how guilt free.

love envieth not;  - no comparing yourself with others and feeling bad, or insufficient..

love vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, - the relief in not feeling a need to promote yourself all the time

doth not behave itself unseemly, - the relief the day after in not looking back and thinking what was I thinking.

seeketh not its own, - the beauty of living for more than just yourself - gives meaning and joy to life.

is not provoked, - saves on black eyes and law suits.

taketh not account of evil; - no feuds or grudges which are so draining.

rejoiceth not in unrighteousness, but rejoiceth with the truth; - keeping a positive frame of mind

beareth all things, - with the help of God, knowing one can overcome all temporary obstacles - the relief.

believeth all things, - not a pessimist and therefore making yourself worry.

hopeth all things, - the future is rosy, in spite of the problems.

endureth all things. - you will prevail

Love never faileth. - these habits will last for eternity.

I am more convinced than ever that the person who benefits the most from applying agape love, is actually yourself.

This convinces me further of the intertwinedness of loving others AS you love yourself.  So you are loving yourself AS you love others.

 

 

[pnattmbtc]

“Love suffereth long, and is kind; love envieth not; love vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not its own, is not provoked, taketh not account of evil; rejoiceth not in unrighteousness, but rejoiceth with the truth; beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. Love never faileth.” 1 Corinthians 13:4-8 

 

I have never seen it before how much love of self there is in this definition of agape love.  If you do every one of the above you will have shown so much love and kindness to yourself, AS you are doing each of the above for others.  I will go through each one below...

“Love suffereth long, and is kind; - how wonderful it feels to resist reacting to provocation - how guilt free.

love envieth not;  - no comparing yourself with others and feeling bad, or insufficient..

love vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up, - the relief in not feeling a need to promote yourself all the time

doth not behave itself unseemly, - the relief the day after in not looking back and thinking what was I thinking.

seeketh not its own, - the beauty of living for more than just yourself - gives meaning and joy to life.

is not provoked, - saves on black eyes and law suits.

taketh not account of evil; - no feuds or grudges which are so draining.

rejoiceth not in unrighteousness, but rejoiceth with the truth; - keeping a positive frame of mind

beareth all things, - with the help of God, knowing one can overcome all temporary obstacles - the relief.

believeth all things, - not a pessimist and therefore making yourself worry.

hopeth all things, - the future is rosy, in spite of the problems.

endureth all things. - you will prevail

Love never faileth. - these habits will last for eternity.

I am more convinced than ever that the person who benefits the most from applying agape love, is actually yourself.

This convinces me further of the intertwinedness of loving others AS you love yourself.  So you are loving yourself AS you love others.

 

 

The idea of agape is you put the well-being of others ahead of yourself.  The idea of "love of self" is you put the well-being of yourself ahead of others.

[Wingnut]

The idea of agape is you put the well-being of others ahead of yourself.  The idea of "love of self" is you put the well-being of yourself ahead of others.

Or the third possibility, you love others AS yourself, putting their well-being not ahead of you, or behind you, but equal to your well being.  That's what I currently understand "as" to mean.  

[8thdaypriest]

Hi Wingnut,

I believe that forgiveness (something God has done) is different from reconciliation (the part that we must come to).  To be reconciled to someone, you must change your mind about them, or at least about what relationship you want with them.  And some folks don't even know that they HAVE a Father in Heaven. 

The forgiveness of the father, in the prodigal son story did NOT get the Son back home.  The Son had to come to the realization that "home" was better.  The "pigpen" helped with that. 

When a person - far from "home" - hears the story of Christ, he realizes that "the Father" loves him, and WANTS him back.  He provided a "way" back.  He may, or may not, yet realize that "home" is better, than where he presently is. 

For those who understand things in a forensic way (sin requires punishment - Christ suffered the punishment, or Christ paid the debt),  they understand that Jesus made a "way" back to righteous standing before God.  There's nothing WRONG with the forensic viewpoint.  I just think it does not go far enough, to reveal the heart of God. 

For those - like me - that understand things in a reconciliation/ restoration of relationship way, they understand that God sent a message - in the death of His own Son.  "I have forgiven you.  You can come home." 

Even folks like me, understand that the Father has a law.  I see it as a "law of cause and effect" - rather than, as God Himself directly punishing humans who break "His law".  

Some folks understand God to say, "Eat of this fruit and you will END UP dead."  Others understand God to say, "Eat of this fruit, and I will have to exterminate you in a lake of fire." 

When the Bible says that Jesus intercedes for us, some folks understand Jesus as pleading with the Father (on our behalf) and some folks understand Jesus pleading with us (on the Father's behalf).  I'm in the second group of folks.  I don't believe that Jesus needs to CHANGE His Father's mind - about ANYTHING. 

Concerning Satan:  I DO believe that Satan and his angels will be consumed in the special "lake of fire" that was created for them, and will not exist any longer.   I just read in Rev 20:10:

"And the devil who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet were throne, and will be tormented day and night forever and ever."

I was talking about spirit beings having to suffer longer than physical human beings.  That's all.  It's about how long human beings will suffer, vs the wicked spirit beings.

PS:  If you want to insert your replies between lines of my text, then highlight them, or color them, to show "yours" and "mine". 

[pnattmbtc]

Or the third possibility, you love others AS yourself, putting their well-being not ahead of you, or behind you, but equal to your well being.  That's what I currently understand "as" to mean.  

I don't think this is what we see in Christ.  I think what we see is Christ preferring others to Himself.  For example, from Phillipians 2:

 

. 3 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves, 4 not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others.

5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in very nature[a] God,
    did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
    by taking the very nature[b] of a servant,
    being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
    he humbled himself
    by becoming obedient to death—
        even death on a cross!

Here Paul says we should value others above ourselves, looking not to our own interests, but the interests of others, and gives Christ as an example of this.  He says we should have the same mindset as Christ, which is to put others ahead of ourselves, which is agape.

[LifeHiscost]

 

Even folks like me, understand that the Father has a law.  I see it as a "law of cause and effect" - rather than, as God Himself directly punishing humans who break "His law". 

Even where definite steps are taken by the Lord of glory, by fire for destruction, it is out of love to protect His loyal children that it is carried out.

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

 

[Wingnut]

 

I don't think this is what we see in Christ.  I think what we see is Christ preferring others to Himself.  For example, from Phillipians 2:

 

Here Paul says we should value others above ourselves, looking not to our own interests, but the interests of others, and gives Christ as an example of this.  He says we should have the same mindset as Christ, which is to put others ahead of ourselves, which is agape.

Paul said "not looking to your own interests..."

I take this to read "not looking to your own interests [only]...."

I challenge anyone who would argue to tell me how life is going for them since they gave up looking to their own interests.  Bills unpaid, no exercise, why bother to bath... these are all looking to your own interests.

[LifeHiscost]

 

 

  This convinces me further of the intertwinedness of loving others AS you love yourself.  So you are loving yourself AS you love others. 

This is exemplified in the way God instructs His children be treated by those seeking to serve Him.

3 I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you; And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.”....Genesis 12
 

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

[pnattmbtc]

Paul said "not looking to your own interests..."

I take this to read "not looking to your own interests [only]...."

I challenge anyone who would argue to tell me how life is going for them since they gave up looking to their own interests.  Bills unpaid, no exercise, why bother to bath... these are all looking to your own interests.

Paul is saying to put the interests of others ahead of your own, and gives Christ as an example of this.  This is agape.

[Wingnut]

Hi Wingnut,

When the Bible says that Jesus intercedes for us, some folks understand Jesus as pleading with the Father (on our behalf) and some folks understand Jesus pleading with us (on the Father's behalf).  I'm in the second group of folks.  I don't believe that Jesus needs to CHANGE His Father's mind - about ANYTHING.1

1 John 2:1...And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

While I don't think Christ and the Father have widely different views, Christ's experience as a weak human gave him a unique perspective and empathy for humans which He uses (I believe) to plead with the Father on our behalf, as a priest would .  Plead is too strong a word, since they are on the same page.  But I see Christ and the Father as thinking different thoughts, otherwise one of them is redundant.  I see Christ more as Mom, pleading with Dad not to whip the kids too hard when they are caught being naughty.  I realise you differ with this view.  Christ learned obedience by suffering.  The Father did not.  I once made a long list of the differences between the Father and Christ.

[pnattmbtc]

1 John 2:1...And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.

While I don't think Christ and the Father have widely different views, Christ's experience as a weak human gave him a unique perspective and empathy for humans which He uses (I believe) to plead with the Father on our behalf, as a priest would .  Plead is too strong a word, since they are on the same page.  But I see Christ and the Father as thinking different thoughts, otherwise one of them is redundant.  I see Christ more as Mom, pleading with Dad not to whip the kids too hard when they are caught being naughty.  I realise you differ with this view.  Christ learned obedience by suffering.  The Father did not.  I once made a long list of the differences between the Father and Christ.

John 16 comes to mind:

26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:

27 For the Father himself loveth you

 

[Wingnut]

Paul is saying to put the interests of others ahead of your own, and gives Christ as an example of this.  This is agape.

Which is different to "not looking to your own interests..." 

To every thing there is a season... A time to put their interests ahead of yours, and a time to put your interests ahead of theirs.

But please, go ahead and make it a rule to put everyone else's interests ahead of your own every time, and tell me how that works for you.

 

Edited September 29, 2015 by Wingnut

[pnattmbtc]

Which is different to "not looking to your own interests..." 

To every thing there is a season... A time to put their interests ahead of yours, and a time to put your interests ahead of theirs.

But please, go ahead and make it a rule to put everyone else's interests ahead of your own every time, and tell me how that works for you.

 

I'm not understanding your point.  What do you think Philippians 2 is saying?  

I'm understanding it to say that we should have the mindset of Christ, which is explained.  I understand that what Christ did was to sacrifice Himself for the good of others, and that this is agape, and that this is what Paul had in mind when he said we should have the mindset of Christ.

Are you understanding something different than this?

[Robert]

I agree with every scripture you throw at me.  But I think you are suggesting some kind of extremist view of these scriptures such as only work to increase others wealth while neglecting your own.  

Your subordinating conjunction ("but") is an opinion not shared by Paul.  He plainly stated that agape is not self-seeking.  Sin is self-seeking, but not agape.  Living for self, in the eyes of the law, makes you a sinner.  Can't you stop your self-seeking using your will power?  No?  Why not?  You love self...you are a slave to your self-love.  Hence you have a nature that overrides your will power....That's Paul's whole point in Romans chapter 7

Edited September 30, 2015 by Robert

[Robert]

I find it very strange that you say this Robert.  It is very "dishonest" of the Father to take my sins and place them on Christ. ....

How did God take your sins (which are not tangible) and pin them on Christ?  I mean, come on, that's a metaphor. Surely you can do better?

Edited September 30, 2015 by Robert

[Robert]

Where in the Scripture is "as we love ourself", instructed by God, negated?

God is Love!  Jesus saves! 

Self-love is not a command.  If you love self, you are a sinner.  Christ loved not Himself, even unto death.  He exhibited no love of self. He denied self.....

BTW, the opposite of self-love is not self-hate.  The opposite of self-love is agape.

Self-hate stems from self-love.  Self-hate is a product of coveting where one fails to gain the things others have in life.  That could be education, riches, good looks, etc....

E.G., the overweight woman, she covets to be thin like the women in the magazines, but she fails time and time again to lose the weight; so she begins to hate herself.  Why?  Self-love (coveting).

Edited September 30, 2015 by Robert