pnattmbtc Posted January 11, 2016 Posted January 11, 2016 1 hour ago, Robert said: Stuck on that one little sentence, aren't you. There's a vast amount of other Pauline texts that clarify your above quote. Perhaps you should consider them also? Christ, through His death, has reconciled the human race to God. That's why God can save babies who have died before the could hear "be reconciled to God." That why folks who have never had the opportunity to hear "be reconciled to God" can legally be taken to heaven. Yes, this makes some Christians angry & jealous. They say, "look at all I've done:. I believed; I was baptized; I kept God's law...I this, I that...." What will Christ say? "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." Matt 7:23 You see doing good things in order to get something in return (glory, praise, a crown, & real estate in heaven) isn't agape. It's self-love or iniquity. So watch out lest you fall! You're not relying on a vast number of Pauline quotes for the particular idea you're suggesting, just a couple of ones, and one of them, in mid-sentence, contradicts that very idea. I keep coming back to it, because you haven't addressed it, which is because you can't. Anyone can see if Paul says our message, through Christ, to unbelievers is "be reconciled to God", then this means they need to be reconciled to God. I basically agree with your agape comments, but these are in no way dependent upon the corporate/forensic idea. Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
8thdaypriest Posted January 11, 2016 Posted January 11, 2016 On 1/9/2016 at 4:07 PM, Robert said: There's no doubt that Paul is writing to the believers in the church at Corinth, but that doesn't negate my position. The believer is a "new creation" in Christ alone. Only in Him have "all things been made new" because at the resurrection Christ's Deity (which never died) was united, not to our life from Adam for that remained in the grave, but to a glorified, sinless and holy humanity like Adam's life before the fall. In fact this glorified life is more like the angels than our humanity before the fall (see Mark 12:25). Here is Scripture on this point: "For He (God the Father) rescued us from the domain of darkness (this world under Satan), and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins." (Col 1:13,14 NASB) Are we in heaven? No, I'm typing on my laptop. So who is the "us" that has already been "transferred" to heaven? Once AGAIN, the "us" (transferred us) refers to BELIEVERS who now serve Christ, NOT to people who never heard of Him, or to people who have refused to believe in Him as Lord. JoeMo 1 8thdaypriest
8thdaypriest Posted January 11, 2016 Posted January 11, 2016 On 1/10/2016 at 11:37 AM, Robert said: I know that you are endeavoring to hijack this thread on the gospel to the subject of works. If you wish to start another thread on James 2:17 I'll be happy to respond.it, but not here. Why would the "subject of works" be changing the subject? "For whatsoever is not of faith - is sin" (Romans 14:23). 8thdaypriest
8thdaypriest Posted January 11, 2016 Posted January 11, 2016 2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance." Perish OR repent. Doesn't appear that all mankind was "saved" when Christ died. Peter still believes they must "repent" in order that they not "perish". Acts 2:38 "Then Peter said to them, 'Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.'" Acts 3:19 "Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out," Acts 17:30 "Truly, these times of ignorance God overlooked, but now commands all men everywhere to repent," Men do not "repent" in order to stay "saved", they must repent in order to BE saved, to be adopted into the family of God, to be written in to the Book of Eternal Life. THIS is what Paul preached: Acts 26:20 "First to those in Damascus, then to those in Jerusalem and in all Judea, and then to the Gentiles, I preached that they should repent and turn to God and demonstrate their repentance by their deeds." 8thdaypriest
pnattmbtc Posted January 11, 2016 Posted January 11, 2016 Quote Me: There's a problem with your methodology here. Robert: In your eyes, sure....But then again you are using one verse, 2 Cor 5;20. This is way, way wrong. I've presented a lot of evidence, from many different angles, and the fact that you would write something like this is disappointing, as it appears to indicate you're not reading the posts. You haven't responded to these posts either. Quote Robert:Now compare your one verse, taken out of context, Out of context?! It is the context! It's in the middle of Paul's thought, from which you took out a part. If you want to understand Paul's idea here, consider his whole thought, the whole sentence. What you're doing is classic eisegesis. You have an idea, and, regardless of the evidence, you're going to stick with it. Paul actually said our message to unbelievers is "be reconciled to God." This fact doesn't go away just because you choose to ignore it. to the numerous texts that I have quoted. So, my methodology is fine. It is yours that is highly questionable. Here's what I'm doing: 1.Considering the entire thought Paul is presenting. 2.Considering the milleu in which Paul wrote, as well as his hearers. 3.Considering Christian history. 4.Considering Adventist history. 5.Considering what is the problem which God needs to solve, and how it is solved. You're not doing any of these. You jump from one text to another, without rhyme or reason, to pluck from here or there phrases you think support your idea. At no point do you consider any passage in a methodical way. Quote Me: Try again. Robert: Nope...I've given you much Biblical evidence; you chose to complicate the plain words of Paul. It's not rocket science. You have not done this. You've just repeated ideas you have. And you ignore questions you can't answer, which isn't cool. For example, why did Jesus tell Nicodemus to enter the kingdom of heaven one must be born again? Why did Jesus say His words are "spirit and life"? Quote Me: I've already acknowledged that there is a corporate theme, that in John, for example, we see Christ presented as "the Savior of the world". Robert: That's a start, but you refuse to accept the rest of the story as found in Romans 5:10,18. Let me quote them for you one more time: "when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son" "through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men" This is another example; you're not even quoting an entire sentence here. Just little fragments, devoid of any context whatsoever. What do the phrases you are citing mean? You don't discuss this. For example, what made us enemies? What does it mean to be reconciled? Who is reconciled to whom? Why is the reconciliation necessary? How is it accomplished? In a recent post you wrote that God couldn't just take everyone to heaven because it would ruin paradice (this isn't word for word, but the general idea). Now why would paradise be ruined? You suggest it is because of having fallen natures, but this is off base, because paradice was ruined by beings with perfect natures. The ruin would come from the *minds* of those who would be taken there, not their natures. The problem of the mind, or mind-set, is what needs to be fixed, and this is what the ministry of reconciliaiton is all about, bringing man and God into harmony. This happens by means of the cross. We can agree on this point. But how? how does the cross reconcile? In order to understand this, we need to understand what caused the problem in the first place. Consider the fall. What happened there? What caused man to rebel against God? Or angels to rebel against God? It is in understanding the answer to these questions that we can get a handle on how the ministry of reconciliation works. 8thdaypriest 1 Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Robert Posted January 11, 2016 Author Posted January 11, 2016 3 hours ago, pnattmbtc said: This isn't a problem which can be fixed simply by changing fallen natures, as the fundamental problem is in the mind. Christ took our fallen nature, but did not sin. Why not? Because he had the "mind of Christ" and used his free will to choose agape. Again, I've quoted the converted Paul, who in his mind "delighted in the law of God according to the inward man (converted man)", but who in real life (i.e., when the rubber meets the road) was not living above sin as did Christ. Yet, we are told, there was no condemnation to those who put their faith "in Christ Jesus". Why? Because of our position "in Christ"! No believer is having just the Romans 8 experience. All believers vacillate between the Romans 7 & 8 experience. How do I know? 1 John 1:8 "If we say we have no sin" we are self-deceived by our own self-righteousness. Romans 3:23 "All have sinned (past tense) and fall short (continuous, present tense)" of God's agape love . Therefore no believer is ever totally sin free. By sin free I'm mean there's absolutely no self-seeking in the life of the believer and he/she is actively working for the prosperity of others. Keep 1 Cor 10:24 in mind: " Let no man seek his own, but every man another's wealth". So at best we have defective characters. According to you that means believers wouldn't be happy in heaven even with our fallen nature removed. Naturally this type of theology leads to legalism and self-righteous - the enemy of the gospel! So I don't buy your argument....
Robert Posted January 11, 2016 Author Posted January 11, 2016 2 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said: Why would the "subject of works" be changing the subject? "For whatsoever is not of faith - is sin" (Romans 14:23). Because the gospel is what Christ did....Faith is a response to what Christ has already accomplished. Hence we call this justification by faith. This thread is on the gospel. Not the believer's faith or anything else. The gospel: The birth, life, death and resurrection of Christ and what He accomplished.
Robert Posted January 11, 2016 Author Posted January 11, 2016 1 hour ago, pnattmbtc said: Consider the fall. What happened there? What caused man to rebel against God? Or angels to rebel against God? It is in understanding the answer to these questions that we can get a handle on how the ministry of reconciliation works. Mankind (Adam & Eve) didn't rebel. Eve was deceived. Adam loved Eve with agape, so he chose to die with her. But in so doing he by default turned his back on God. That's not rebellion - that's a bad decision. Also Adam and Eve weren't tempted to sin as some suggestion. Why? Temptation comes from within...out of our corrupt natures. And Lucifer, He was created perfect in all his ways, until iniquity (his bent-to-self/iniquity) was found in him. From where did iniquity (sin) come? Answer: There's no answer, the Bible doesn't explain how a perfect being could sin. Ellen White agrees: "Sin is an intruder, for whose presence no reason can be given. It is mysterious, unaccountable; to excuse it is to defend it. Could excuse for it be found, or cause be shown for its existence, it would cease to be sin. Our only definition of sin is that given in the word of God; it is "the transgression of the law;" it is the outworking of a principle at war with the great law of love (agape) which is the foundation of the divine government. [GC 493]
Robert Posted January 11, 2016 Author Posted January 11, 2016 4 hours ago, pnattmbtc said: The first person to present the ideas you are suggesting was Robert Wieland, who baptized Sequeira. You presented a video from Wieland, which is appreciated. And both men said the same thing I'm am stating....Look at the video again. I also gave you quotes from Sequeira too. So in my estimation you've ignored me, Wieland, Sequeira and the Apostle Paul! But then again that's not my problem, it's your problem. Why? Ultimately your gospel is nothing more than a subtle form of legalism. Nothing new under the sun, huh?
Robert Posted January 11, 2016 Author Posted January 11, 2016 44 minutes ago, Robert said: Again, I've quoted the converted Paul, who in his mind "delighted in the law of God according to the inward man (converted man)", but who in real life (i.e., when the rubber meets the road) was not living above sin as did Christ. Yet, we are told, there was no condemnation to those who put their faith "in Christ Jesus". Why? Because of our position "in Christ"! No believer is having just the Romans 8 experience. All believers vacillate between the Romans 7 & 8 experience. How do I know? 1 John 1:8 "If we say we have no sin" we are self-deceived by our own self-righteousness. Romans 3:23 "All have sinned (past tense) and fall short (continuous, present tense)" of God's agape love . Therefore no believer is ever totally sin free. By sin free I'm mean there's absolutely no self-seeking in the life of the believer and he/she is actively working for the prosperity of others. Keep 1 Cor 10:24 in mind: " Let no man seek his own, but every man another's wealth". So at best we have defective characters. According to you that means believers wouldn't be happy in heaven even with our fallen nature removed. Naturally this type of theology leads to legalism and self-righteous - the enemy of the gospel! So I don't buy your argument.... The nearer we come to Jesus, and the more clearly we discern the purity of His character, the more clearly shall we see the exceeding sinfulness of sin, and the less shall we feel like exalting ourselves. There will be a continual reaching out of the soul after God, a continual, earnest, heartbreaking confession of sin and humbling of the heart before Him. At every advance step in our Christian experience our repentance will deepen. We shall know that our sufficiency is in Christ alone and shall make the apostle's confession our own: "I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing." "God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world." Romans 7:18; Galatians 6:14. [Ellen White]
pnattmbtc Posted January 11, 2016 Posted January 11, 2016 Quote Me:This isn't a problem which can be fixed simply by changing fallen natures, as the fundamental problem is in the mind. Christ took our fallen nature, but did not sin. Why not? Because he had the "mind of Christ" and used his free will to choose agape. Robert:Again, I've quoted the converted Paul, who in his mind "delighted in the law of God according to the inward man (converted man)", but who in real life (i.e., when the rubber meets the road) was not living above sin as did Christ. Yet, we are told, there was no condemnation to those who put their faith "in Christ Jesus". Why? Because of our position "in Christ"! No believer is having just the Romans 8 experience. All believers vacillate between the Romans 7 & 8 experience. How do I know? 1 John 1:8 "If we say we have no sin" we are self-deceived by our own self-righteousness. Romans 3:23 "All have sinned (past tense) and fall short (continuous, present tense)" of God's agape love . Therefore no believer is ever totally sin free. By sin free I'm mean there's absolutely no self-seeking in the life of the believer and he/she is actively working for the prosperity of others. Keep 1 Cor 10:24 in mind: " Let no man seek his own, but every man another's wealth". So at best we have defective characters. According to you that means believers wouldn't be happy in heaven even with our fallen nature removed. Naturally this type of theology leads to legalism and self-righteous - the enemy of the gospel! So I don't buy your argument.... I'm trying to figure out why you wrote this in response to what I wrote. My guess is that you are disagreeing with what I wrote(?), and the reason you disagree is because you don't it's possible for believers to overcome sin(?) This is your argument? And then you write: Quote According to you that means believers wouldn't be happy in heaven even with our fallen nature removed. I've never said anything remotely like this. Why did you write this? Why would you ascribe something to me that's not even remotely like anything I've said? Quote Naturally this type of theology leads to legalism and self-righteous - the enemy of the gospel! So I don't buy your argument.... Your basing your conclusion on fabrications of your own mind, not something I've said. I'll present my actual idea in a separate post. Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted January 11, 2016 Posted January 11, 2016 The following is from "The First Great Deception" in "The Great Controversy" which says the following: Quote The principles of the divine government are in perfect harmony with the Saviour's precept, "Love your enemies." God executes justice upon the wicked, for the good of the universe, and even for the good of those upon whom His judgments are visited. He would make them happy if He could do so in accordance with the laws of His government and the justice of His character. He surrounds them with the tokens of His love, He grants them a knowledge of His law, and follows them with the offers of His mercy; but they despise His love, make void His law, and reject His mercy. While constantly receiving His gifts, they dishonor the Giver; they hate God because they know that He abhors their sins. The Lord bears long with their perversity; but the decisive hour will come at last, when their destiny is to be decided. Will He then chain these rebels to His side? Will He force them to do His will? Those who have chosen Satan as their leader and have been controlled by his power are not prepared to enter the presence of God. Pride, deception, licentiousness, cruelty, have become fixed in their characters. Can they enter heaven to dwell forever with those whom they despised and hated on earth? Truth will never be agreeable to a liar; meekness will not satisfy self-esteem and pride; purity is not acceptable to the corrupt; disinterested love does not appear attractive to the selfish. What source of enjoyment could heaven offer to those who are wholly absorbed in earthly and selfish interests? Could those whose lives have been spent in rebellion against God be suddenly transported to heaven and witness the high, the holy state of perfection that ever exists there,-- every soul filled with love, every countenance beaming with joy, enrapturing music in melodious strains rising in honor of God and the Lamb, and ceaseless streams of light flowing upon the redeemed from the face of Him who sitteth upon the throne,--could those whose hearts are filled with hatred of God, of truth and holiness, mingle with the heavenly throng and join their songs of praise? Could they endure the glory of God and the Lamb? No, no; years of probation were granted them, that they might form characters for heaven; but they have never trained the mind to love purity; they have never learned the language of heaven, and now it is too late. A life of rebellion against God has unfitted them for heaven. Its purity, holiness, and peace would be torture to them; the glory of God would be a consuming fire. They would long to flee from that holy place. They would welcome destruction, that they might be hidden from the face of Him who died to redeem them. The destiny of the wicked is fixed by their own choice. Their exclusion from heaven is voluntary with themselves, and just and merciful on the part of God. Reading this was an "aha!" moment for me. I realized that if there were such a place as an eternal hell, where the wicked would suffer torment forever, it wasn't necessary for God to create some special place, like in the center of the earth, but simple take everyone to heaven and not let anyone die. I realized from reading this quote the destruction of the wicked was not something imposed against them by God, as a punishment for doing something wrong, but was a natural consequence of their own choice. What I believe is that God is working to save everyone, to convert them so that they would be happy in heaven, unlike the description above, and God will accomplish this for all those who do not impose a perverse will and thus frustrate His purpose. A person's being lost is not due to their not being perfect, but continually resisting the Holy Spirit. Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted January 11, 2016 Posted January 11, 2016 Quote The nearer we come to Jesus, and the more clearly we discern the purity of His character, the more clearly shall we see the exceeding sinfulness of sin, and the less shall we feel like exalting ourselves. There will be a continual reaching out of the soul after God, a continual, earnest, heartbreaking confession of sin and humbling of the heart before Him. At every advance step in our Christian experience our repentance will deepen. We shall know that our sufficiency is in Christ alone and shall make the apostle's confession our own: "I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing." "God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world." Romans 7:18; Galatians 6:14. [Ellen White] This is good. This involves a change in the believer. Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Robert Posted January 11, 2016 Author Posted January 11, 2016 1 hour ago, pnattmbtc said: Your basing your conclusion on fabrications of your own mind, not something I've said. This is part of what you said (and BTW I don't like the fact that you're hijacking this thread off the gospel to sanctification): Quote This isn't a problem which can be fixed simply by changing fallen natures, as the fundamental problem is in the mind. Christ took our fallen nature, but did not sin. Why not? Because he had the "mind of Christ" and used his free will to choose agape. Explain yourself then....
Robert Posted January 11, 2016 Author Posted January 11, 2016 34 minutes ago, pnattmbtc said: This is good. This involves a change in the believer. And you completely missed my point: "At every advance step in our Christian experience our repentance will deepen. We shall know that our sufficiency is in Christ alone and shall make the apostle's confession our own: "I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing." In other words the more we understand Christ and His righteousness the more we see how wretched we are compared to Him. That drives us to confess that "our sufficiency is in Christ alone". That's the ticket to heaven....Not character perfection, not works of the law, Christ alone and His finished work. This does not mean that believer, as he rests in Christ, bears no fruit. It's just that the believer is never good enough and can add nothing to Christ's finished work of redemption.
pnattmbtc Posted January 11, 2016 Posted January 11, 2016 Quote Robert: Your basing your conclusion on fabrications of your own mind, not something I've said. Me: This is part of what you said (and BTW I don't like the fact that you're hijacking this thread off the gospel to sanctification): This is cryptic. What are you talking about? Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted January 11, 2016 Posted January 11, 2016 Quote Robert: Your basing your conclusion on fabrications of your own mind, not something I've said. Me: This is part of what you said. No it's not. I said it's not. I said it's not remotely like anything I said. If you want to disagree, you need to produce something to disprove my statement. You can't just repeat the groundless statement you made. I can't very well produce a statement I didn't make. You need to produce one I did. For reference: Quote Robert: According to you that means believers wouldn't be happy in heaven even with our fallen nature removed. Me:I've never said anything remotely like this. Why did you write this? Why would you ascribe something to me that's not even remotely like anything I've said? If you disagree with me, quote something I said. Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Robert Posted January 11, 2016 Author Posted January 11, 2016 Just now, pnattmbtc said: This is cryptic. What are you talking about? This thread is on the gospel. This "new creation" isn't the believers' alone. This "new creation" refers to the "in Christ" motif, which is the gospel. Character development (or whatever you want to label it) is not part of the gospel. Maybe sanctification, but not what Christ did in His earthly birth, life, death and resurrection.
pnattmbtc Posted January 11, 2016 Posted January 11, 2016 Quote Me: This isn't a problem which can be fixed simply by changing fallen natures, as the fundamental problem is in the mind. Christ took our fallen nature, but did not sin. Why not? Because he had the "mind of Christ" and used his free will to choose agape. Robert: Explain yourself then Which part? The part about how our minds need to be changed, or about Christ overcoming sin? Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted January 11, 2016 Posted January 11, 2016 This is good. This involves a change in the believer. And you completely missed my point: No, I didn't miss your point. I was making a point myself. Your ideas do not involve anything having to do with the believer (as opposed to unbelievers). I was making the point that the statement is talking about changes which happen in the believer. That is, her statement is dealing with pride, and how there is nothing in ourselves to warrant any claim to favor on the part of God. Why is it important that this be the case? That is, why is it a requirement of salvation that we not believe that we can achieve the favor of God by our own works. This is an important point to consider. Quote "At every advance step in our Christian experience our repentance will deepen. We shall know that our sufficiency is in Christ alone and shall make the apostle's confession our own: "I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing." In other words the more we understand Christ and His righteousness the more we see how wretched we are compared to Him. That drives us to confess that "our sufficiency is in Christ alone". That's the ticket to heaven....Not character perfection, not works of the law, Christ alone and His finished work. Robert: This does not mean that believer, as he rests in Christ, bears no fruit. It's just that the believer is never good enough and can add nothing to Christ's finished work of redemption. Nobody, to my knowledge, is making the claim that the believe needs to be good enough to add to Christ's work. Where we are in disagreement is as to what Christ's work was. Your point of view was that Christ paid a legal penalty, and I think that's pretty much it. In this perspective, what Christ actually did and said is not important. Only what Paul said is important, and that Christ died, and didn't sin, so He could pay a price. From my point of view, *everything* Christ said and did was crucial, as per John 1:18. Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Robert Posted January 11, 2016 Author Posted January 11, 2016 You know, when you turn from the gospel and try to add anything, you end up with confusion (Babylon). That's why I insisted on staying with the subject of this thread, but no.... The subject: Is 2 Corinthians 5:17's "new creation" speaking of the believer? Anything outside this will not be addressed here. If you want to talk about character perfection, start another thread. Thank you!
pnattmbtc Posted January 11, 2016 Posted January 11, 2016 1 minute ago, Robert said: You know, when you turn from the gospel and try to add anything, you end up with confusion (Babylon). That's why I insisted on staying with the subject of this thread, but no.... What are you talking about? Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
pnattmbtc Posted January 11, 2016 Posted January 11, 2016 Robert, from my perspective, what is important is The Great Controversy, which regards God's character, so this is what I talk about. This is what is important. What is God like? Is He like the enemy has present Him to be? Or is He like Jesus's demonstration in word and deed? When we see and believe the truth, we become followers of Jesus Christ. This is my understanding of what the gospel is, so this is what I've been presenting. I don't believe we need to do anything to be good enough to earn God's favor, or add anything to the work that Christ did. God grants us favor because it is His nature to do so; God is agape. Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
Robert Posted January 11, 2016 Author Posted January 11, 2016 1 minute ago, pnattmbtc said: What are you talking about? What are you talking about asking me what I'm talking about??? Just stay with the subject of this thread and we can cut down on this massive confusion. Okay?
pnattmbtc Posted January 11, 2016 Posted January 11, 2016 1 minute ago, Robert said: What are you talking about asking me what I'm talking about??? Just stay with the subject of this thread and we can cut down on this massive confusion. Okay? What is it you are finding confusing? Christ exalted the character of God, attributing to him the praise, and giving to him the credit, of the whole purpose of his own mission on earth,--to set men right through the revelation of God.
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