How and when does Satan personate Christ?

[JoeMo]

40 minutes ago, hch said:

JoeMo,

Since my study indicates that the first woe ended 22 February 1928.

And The second woe ended 14 February 2013.

you said: "The harvest of the earth and the pouring out of the bowls occurs during the 2nd and 3rd woes."

Can you clarify?

I've don't recall a 5-month plague of horse-sized locust-scorpions in any of my history lessons, nor do I recall a horde crossing the dried-up Euphrates and killing a third of humanity.  I believe that when these woes fall, God's judgment will be obvious to all; and not just the few who are deemed worthy because of their devotion to eschatological research.

As far as clarifying my current thinking (assuming that the book of revelation describes events in sequential time):

1. The first 4 trumpets blow (Rev.8: 6-12)

2. The three woes are announced (Rev. 8:13)

3. First and second woes (5th and 6th trumpets) occur (Rev. 9)

4. Sometime between the 6th and 7th trumpet (or at the beginning of the 7th trumpet), the two witnesses (which have been around for the better part of the 1,260 days) are killed, resurrected, and taken to heaven. (Rev. 11)

5. The literal "beasts" appear and subjugate humanity to the antichrist power. (Rev. 13)

6. The 144,000 are presented (Rev. 14:1-5) QUESTION - Does this mean the 144,000 will be in heaven at this time?

7. The final 3 angels message is given, including the warning to those who are contemplating reception of the mark of the beast. (Rev. 14: 6-13)  If people are not aware of specifically what the mark is and the consequences for receiving it, they shouldn't be held accountable.  I believe the 3rd angel will announce specifically what constitutes the "mark".  All we can do now is speculate.

8. The earth is "harvested".  The saved are taken up into the sky, and the unsaved are destroyed by the 7 bowls. (Rev. 14:14-20). The seven bowls described in Rev. 15 and 16 are an expansion of rev. 14: 19 -20.

9. The seven bowls of wrath are poured out on the wicked (Rev. 15 and 16).  The 7th bowl corresponds to the 7th seal and the 7th trumpet.  It is during this time that the beast is ultimately defeated by Christ; and He sets up His millennial reign on earth along with the saved, who were protected from the destruction caused by the 7 bowls and for the final defeat of the beast .(Rev. 19:11 - 20:6)

That's how I see things now.  Future events and/or future study could alter that view.  Again; I'm not saying I'm right; just saying that is how I currently view things.

 

[hch]

42 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

That's how I see things now.  Future events and/or future study could alter that view.  Again; I'm not saying I'm right; just saying that is how I currently view things.

That's a great observation. I will follow up with you on this.

[stinsonmarri]

 LifeHiscost: This is what the Scriptures says:

This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that HIS TESTIMONY is true. And there are also many other things which YAHSHUA did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen. John 21:24, 25

Now show me in these Scriptures that is states that Satan would appear in the last days as YAHSHUA????? I agree with Aliagins EGW is the lesser light and not a prophetess. She made that clear, but Aliagins, I believe all of the things she was shown or given you can find it in the Bible and I believe her and stand firmly with her. Most do not deal with TM p. 105-117 read it first please! That is why most do not truly understand her very first visions, if you did you would understand Matt 25:1-13 However,  CherylG gave writings base on what SDA believed but it is not in the Bible at all. It pulls partially from Daniel Chapter 7 but our church is stuck on Uriah Smith. EGW had a lot of problems with him. Now let's really break down what the Scriptures really states::

After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; (this is a lion that devours) and it had great iron teeth: (this is Pagan Rome) it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it:  (this is the feet of a bear which is the only animal that stamps with it feet!!!!) and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; (it clearly was because each of the beast were a part of this beast) and it had ten horns. (how clear is this 10 horns means 10 kingdoms! This right here shows periods of time) Dan 7:7 

Then I would know the truth of the fourth beast, (Daniel is focusing only on the forth beast.), which was diverse from all the others (diverse means different how was he different? I know do you?), exceeding dreadful, whose teeth were of iron, (this is pagan Rome a part of the beast!!!! The lion head had iron teeth that devour-hello!!!) and his nails of brass (brass is Greece!!!); which devoured, brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with his feet (again a bear feet and a lion devours his food); And of the ten horns that were in his head (the horns were in his head and at this time no seven heads Daniel did not focus on!), and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows. (again the papacy power for 1,260 years. This is not Dan 12: 7 that is during the Time of Trouble and literally 3 1/2 years.) Dan 7:19, 20 

Let us continue:

 

I considered the horns (Daniel is focusing on the horns, the ten kingdoms), and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things. (If this is not history of the 10 kingdoms of Rome when the papacy came into power then what folks????)  I beheld till the thrones were cast down (Rev 5:-14), and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire. A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened. Dan 7:8-10

Well hello Hiram Edison and read this with Rev Chapter 4, 5 which is THE FATHER we should HALLOWED HIS NAME YAHWEH Ex 3: 14, 15; Matt 6:9. This is what he saw and I believe him also! This started on the Day of Atonement 1844 I still believe this! Judgment however was for the whole world and the seals dealt with the whole world and notice only four horses which is the earth-hello!!!

Then we read:

I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. (When did this happen read Rev 19:14-21 ) As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time. (Read Rev 19:14-21) Dan 7:11 12   

 

And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, (John see something more then Daniel and the Bible tells you that in Rev 1:1-3, John  has the rest of the Last day message for the SDA church known as Ladioceans! The five wise virgins will wake up that EGW first vision was all about the five foolish will be foolish!!!! They will protest and try to do foolish things to become delusion that they believe a lie. 2 Thess 2:1-1 please read it especially the part that says; "For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he (the papacy) be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, (the beast, hello) whom YAHSHUA shall consume with THE SPIRIT of HIS MOUTH, and shall destroy with the brightness of HIS coming:" 2 Thes 2:1-4; this is the beast too but Rev 11-3 shows his horns ten crowns this during the middle ages they have crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy, these kings are basically Catholic and even during the reformation who still kept Sunday and other Catholic beliefs.) And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard (Greece the whole world copy Greece laws use their language for medicine and everything else including their language for religion), and his feet were as the feet of a bear (Persian religion is the word Christ that is really Mithras, we celebrate Christmas on his birthday and sounds like YAHSHUA'S birth; but no one knows the exact day when YAHSHUA was born. , And this was sometime during The Holy Convocation of Unleavened Bread.  Luke 2:42 We worship the Egyptians goddess known as Easter, and Valentine the cupid boy is Nimrod who really is black but white people try to make every pagan beliefs are all white.), and his mouth as the mouth of a lion (here is the devour in Daniel the lion head of the beast.): and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority (Now you tell me where is the devil power and seat because the earth itself belongs to ELOHIM. Ex 9:29; 19:5; 1Ch 29:11; Psa 24:1; 33:5 1Co 10:26).   And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. (This is the seventh head which is the period of time now and the Beast is the 8th Rev Chapters 11, 15-17, deals with the head that Daniel saw that giving to the burning flames and so does John Rev 19: 14-21!) And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? Rev 13:1-4  The beast is shown through periods of time until the 8th one is the last one who did come out of the Catholic Church but hate the religion. He realize it is a fake and turn to destroy the Catholic Church. Those will understand this is the battle of Armageddon between the two of them. The Catholic will be destroyed, the beast will have the world now worship him and the dragon. The beast and the world army will go after YAHSHUA and he will be destroyed in the burning flames!

Well there you have it my belief with both Hiram Edson and EGW visions they saw and I have a surprise that she also saw that also prove Rev 13:4!!!!

Blessings!

Blessings!

[JoeMo]

34 minutes ago, Wrxdod16 said:

If Revelation is to be taken chronologically then the mark of the beast is applied at least 3 times.

Is the chronology theory contradicted if the woes and the bowls overlap?

If one looks at the time period when the mark comes into play, it is always between the 6th and 7th trumpet.  Therefore, I infer that all 3 places in Rev. 13 and 14 are talking about the same event. Rev. 16 is when the proverbial noxious brown substance hits the rotating air movement machine; and the substance does not scatter randomly - it aims for those with the mark - mostly because the church is absent from the earth by this time, since the harvest of the earth (the pre-wrath rapture) has already occurred (See the last half of Rev. 14). Just my opinion - like everything else I've stated on this thread.

I can't help but think that you're baiting me with questions like this - just waiting for me to say something "dumber" than what I've already stated.  I am not stating "doctrinal facts"; and neither are you.  We are both just stating opinions.

[AliAgins]

9 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

I have been an Adventist since 1955! My mother studied her Bible and found the Sabbath through THE HOLY SPIRIT! She asked her pastor (my mother was a devoted Black Missionary Baptist), she felt that the Bible was not just for the Hebrew or so call Judaic religion. She felt it was for everyone. We left the South moved to the North, New Haven CT. She started having all types of so call Christian religions to study with, including Jehovah Witness. She asked them all about the Sabbath none could give her a straight answer from the Bible. This include Catholic, Baptist, Presbyterians, Methodist and many others. At her job this guy was playing around using Scriptures from the Bible. She got on him and he showed her he was taking Bible studies, he gave her one of the lessons. She said she heard a voice state this is what you have been looking for. She took Bible studies and they kept saying they keep all of the Commandments. She stopped them asked about what day is the Sabbath! They would not tell her Saturday, instead the 7th day of the week. She made them tell her that the day is Saturday and she shouted for joy! 

Them she kept the Sabbath in the VA hospital even though others were SDA. She prayed and all said a light came over her and refuse to break the Sabbath anymore. Her boss was a Catholic and a military Nurse working in the VA in 1955. My mother was the only one who kept the Sabbath in New Haven VA Hospital!!!!!!! My mother was baptized and my father was struggling but stood to be baptized the very next Sabbath he was dead!!!!!! My mother remain faithful, she sold EGW books and Arthur S. Maxwell. She became also a great Bible Teacher on her job and community. Ask Mount Zion church in New Haven CT. and the South Atlantic Conference here. My aunts became Adventist, (only one left about 20 years ago, one died in the truth.) She also got discounts and bought all of EGW own writings, Arthur S. Maxwell children books and the green Bible SDA Commentaries. I wore out volume 1. I studied everything and check everything out especially Genesis. Adventist did not believe in the trinity and still don't. We knew that it came from Constantine during the fight with Arianism from the Jesuit priest. We did not believe in either view, we believe that THE FATHER, THE SON and THE HOLY SPIRIT were SUPREME BEINGS. We did not fully understand everything neither did EGW!!!!!! We believed in her visions not all she wrote because it was base on history during the early 1800. I became a Bible Historian because of Gen Chapter 10 and what the SDA stated about Ham read it please! Yes, I left the truth but not my faith, I never joined another so call Christian religion. Do I have problems with SDA today, yes I do. We have allowed the tares to creep just like during the time of YAHSHUA! We do not study the Bible individually but take the words of ministers who say "Thus said YAHWEH when YAHWEH has not spoken. They twist the Bible and we do not understand the word search because don't do it. EGW said she saw that word were changed in the Bible, I have asked many of you to look up the "god," instead many of you get mad at me. The word is a pagan word that derive from diurnal which means SATAN!!!!! You have to search and it tell you to see Zeus who the Greeks worship who was diurnal or SATAN

I return to the church but with a degree because of what I read and study as a youth. My mother was making changes but Satan took my second father away from her she had a stroke. He became an Adventist through his daughter that I gave Bible studies to. I met him and introduce him to my mother. She married him because she raise her five children a lone. Sadly, I introduce her to a man who was an Adventist but he was a liar and the marriage lasted one year. He cheated and she left him and the woman he had a child with him both left the church, also he cheated with another Adventist. My mother heard him talking with this woman and the marriage was over. I met my second father when we return to Georgia. They were married for thirty years and he became a SDA but his daughter did not want them to be married. She became a Bible worker Director out in California, but married a crooked doctor in our church who was not a SDA and he claim he was a preacher!! He was crooked, put in jail, she took him back and he left her. She then return home took her aging father from my mother for one year. I got him back but the stress was too much my mother had a stroke!!! Later dementia set in and I am keep her today. She is 91 and I burred him also took care of him as well. He died 2007, and I have been back in church for over thirty years, 1976 to be exact. There is a lot I have not shared with you. I shared this with you all to let you know SDA is my faith and not a denomination!!!!!!! I studied the Bible and understand what was translated or transliterated and what was not, it was CHANGED!

So I stand on the Bible and yes I have various version because I know the history of the Tyndale, KJV and the Vulgate Bible. You all need to study the history of the Bible, you would be shocked! So that's my story and that why I do not agree with everything we claim! We are not to add or to take from the Bible, read it and you find that it will tell you that!!!!!!!

Oh yeah also my mother, and her sister with their husband and me and a few others build our own church with our own money here in Greenville Georgia, the conference has never been happy they accepted us somewhat! We will survive and we are a part of the SDA sisters of churches! So go figure!!!!! Check me out, I have nothing to hide!!!!!!!!

Blessings!

You and your family have had a very interesting life!  I believe in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as do every SDA I know.  There were early Adventist that had not received full light, but when they did...they also accepted the Trinity.  I have been SDA all my life.  Even when I was a back slider I never doubted what I had learned.  I have no problem with you using what ever language you choose to  identify the Father.  But, understand...I too and others have the right to make a choice as well. 

I wish you well.  And my God bless you and keep you.

[8thdaypriest]

On 2/15/2016 at 1:09 PM, JoeMo said:

The way I read Daniel 9:24-27, there is a gap between the 69th and 70th week.  the "anointed one" spoken of in these verses is NOT Jesus (capitalization is not in original language; it was added by translators).  Does it seem consistent to you that the "Anointed One" ("put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him. No - the "anointed one" spoken of here is the antichrist.

Only kings and priests were "anointed" with oil.  The Evil One will either appear himself, or he will channel through a man.  The coming "anointed one" will either be a High Priest at a rebuilt 3rd Temple at Jerusalem, OR he will be one claiming to be Messiah, rightful king of Israel and son of David.  A High Priest could NOT "sit in the Temple of God", which makes me think this one will claim to be Messiah King.  Then he could SIT in the Temple. 

[8thdaypriest]

On 3/4/2016 at 6:19 AM, MCBGM said:

Without doubt, a new Global Day is coming. One single, simultaneous "day" for the entire world.

Happening everywhere, in every country, at the same time. (For when God made the Sabbath, it was Sabbath everywhere, at once. Not in different places at different times as so many assume.)

Eliminating the international dateline. An artificial --man-made-- distinction.

All the world will be converted to one calendar and one time zone.

First Day, called Sabbath, won't be either Sunday or Saturday, but both. Sunday in the Old World --opposing the Jews of Israel-- and Saturday in the New World, leading the way.

For when it is Saturday in America, it is Sunday in Europe and the Mideast. (Adventists and others, in America, have actually been keeping Sunday all along, though most have not known this of course. It has been kept hidden from them. Deliberately.)

I had the opportunity, shortly before he died, to meet in person with a remarkable man named Alberto Rivera, the famous Jesuit priest. (I was greatly impressed with his tremendous humility.) I asked him what he thought about Adventists. He said they were good Christians, for the most part, but that they had been infiltrated by (renegade) Jesuit operatives --from the very onset. It was these renegade Jesuits, he told me, who gave the Adventists and others in America their Sabbath ideas, in order to prepare Protestant America for the coming change. In America it is "the Saturday they are after," he told me, "not Sunday." When things finally go down, American Adventists will fall right in line with the global plan. Adventists elsewhere in the world will be misled by them and also embrace the global sabbath, for the most part. Something very much like what happened with the Adventist Church in Germany, under Hitler, will happen globally.

 

I have wondered whether we ought to be keeping the Sabbath, and the Feasts during the hours kept in Jerusalem.  After all - the people went up to Jerusalem to keep the Feasts.  And in the new earth, we will all go up to Jerusalem to worship the LORD "from one Sabbath to another".  It seems illogical that the folks back at home, would be keeping the Feasts at a different time, than the folks in Jerusalem. 

[8thdaypriest]

On 2/15/2016 at 0:58 PM, JoeMo said:

How can you conclude that satan was thrown down to earth prior to the birth of Christ.  If I read 12:5 - 9 correctly (assuming the events portrayed in those verses occur chronologically), satan is not hurled down to earth until AFTER Christ is taken to heaven.  This is just my opinion after many years of Bible study, but I would venture that Rev. 12:7 thru the end of the Chapter are prophetic verses about events that have not yet occurred.  As you have probably guessed, I don't cotton to the historic SDA/EGW interpretation of eschatology.

Verse 6 is transitional.  The "woman" in verses 1 - 5 represents literal Israel. (Jesus was Jewish; as was the religion and the woman who birthed Him).  The "woman in verse 6 onward represents spiritual Israel, which includes Messianic Jews and Gentile believers (in other words, the "church).  The 1,260 days mentioned in verse 5 is the same as the "time, times and half a time mentioned in verse 14.

All that I post here is simply my opinion; not dogma.  My opinion is subject to change as I study more and read the  current "signs of the times".  I don't think any of us can speak with certainty about the details of future prophetic events until they happen.  Until the occurrence of such events, any speculation on the details (especially my own speculation) is just that - speculation (= guessing).

At the time of Job, Satan was still accusing people in Heaven. 

Revelation 12:10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven saying, "Now have come God's victory, power and kingship, and the authority of his Messiah; because the Accuser of our brothers, who accuses them day and night before God, has been thrown out! (CJB)

The above verse sounds like Daniel 7, where dominion and power and the kingdom are given to the Son of Man, at the END of 1260 days of persecution by the Beast power. 

I'm just wondering if the "casting down" coincides with the "fit man" taking the scapegoat to the "uninhabited place".  Satan would be confined to earth for 1000 years, and would then have a "short" time to "deceive the nations" AFTER the 7th millennium.

[8thdaypriest]

On 2/19/2016 at 9:47 AM, JoeMo said:

"In the middle of the ‘seven’^[i] he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he [an anointed one - not Jesus] will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him" (Dan. 9:27)

When you add the rest of Daniel 9:27, the one who puts an end to sacrifice can't possibly be Christ.  He would NEVER set up and abomination in the Temple. Furthermore, Of His Kingdom there will be no end;  the "anointed one" in Dan. 9 appears to have a rather unpleasant demise at the end of the "week"; wich would be 3-1/2 years after Christ died.  

From the middle of the 70th week until the end is 3-1/2 years - a time, times, and half a time - 1260 days by the Jewish calendar. The same length of time as the Great Tribulation.  Is this just a coincidence, or is the 70th week really referring to the last 7 years of earths history?  I believe it is the latter.  All of the resources you pointed to are very learned men; but - as certificated SDA pastors, they must support the denomination's view (which is likely their own strongly held opinions as well).  I'm not saying they are wrong and I'm right; I'm saying I don't believe as they do.  Only time will tell who was right.  Or we both might be wrong - we never really "know" how prophecy will unfold until it unfolds.

If everything on the Temple Mount is destroyed by a bomb from Iran, and then the Jews are allowed to build a new Temple on that Mount, then I think SDAs would have to rethink the 70 weeks.  Mrs White said that "old Jerusalem will never be rebuilt".  So - right now, we are just giving opinions.  We'll have to wait and then see. 

[8thdaypriest]

On 2/22/2016 at 3:15 AM, Alchemy said:

I disagree with Green Cochoa. My question is not moot.

It is true we will not know the exact time probation closes, but, we will know when the 7 last plagues are falling and will know probation has closed by then!

I believe Revelation 16:12-16 teaches us that Satan personation of Christ is during the sixth plague. The dragon being Satan on the earth.

We may not know the year, but we DO KNOW the day.  Probation will close in fulfillment of the Day of Atonement prophecy, just as Christ died in fulfillment of the Passover prophecy, and the Spirit was poured out in fulfillment of the Pentecost prophecy.  And it will close on the "day of atonement". 

[Martn]

54 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

I have wondered whether we ought to be keeping the Sabbath, and the Feasts during the hours kept in Jerusalem.  After all - the people went up to Jerusalem to keep the Feasts.  And in the new earth, we will all go up to Jerusalem to worship the LORD "from one Sabbath to another".  It seems illogical that the folks back at home, would be keeping the Feasts at a different time, than the folks in Jerusalem. 

Some maintain none of these things (truly) can be kept outside the region of Jerusalem.

But for Jews the Sabbath is also about community, so that even where it might not be requisite it is still observed as part of the community to which one belongs. For this reason, historically and presently, Jews have intentionally observed Sabbath on days other than Saturday.

Several centuries ago, many Jews in Europe actually began observing it on Sundays, for a time.

Not by being compelled, but by choice. In order to be in community with their Christian brothers.

Some Jews have even observed it on Wednesday! In order to see if the blessing of Sabbath (menucha) were tied to Saturday only, finding it was not.

Sabbath originally, some maintain, wasn't on Saturday anyway and came to be kept then because that was the day Jews were allowed to leave Egypt.

[Martn]

On 3/8/2016 at 1:41 PM, hch said:

When the door was shut, it was too late to go in.

Too late to be saved in the ark, yes, but not too late to be saved in spirit. They still could repent and be saved, though not from drowning. Same for all the little children left outside the ark --they still would be saved, though not from drowning.

[Martn]

.

 

[hch]

6 minutes ago, MCBGM said:

I find that probation never closes. Ever. For anyone.

 

It sounds like you are saying that when the lake of fire is burning the wicked,

their probation is still open/not closed?

That was not how it was in the days of Noah.

When the door of the ark was shut probation was over.

[Martn]

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[Martn]

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[Martn]

The "fire" which burns the wicked will be like the fire of an oven, we are told.

An oven burns on the inside. Not on the outside.

It consumes all the bad stuff until only what is good in them remains.

[stinsonmarri]

17 hours ago, AliAgins said:

You and your family have had a very interesting life!  I believe in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit as do every SDA I know.  There were early Adventist that had not received full light, but when they did...they also accepted the Trinity.  I have been SDA all my life.  Even when I was a back slider I never doubted what I had learned.  I have no problem with you using what ever language you choose to  identify the Father.  But, understand...I too and others have the right to make a choice as well. 

I wish you well.  And my God bless you and keep you.

Aliagins: Please I have been in this church since 1955 and I know for a fact the EGW never believed in the trinity. It makes no sense we were made in THEIR IMAGE and the word person is this:

Person (n.) early 13c., from Old French persone "human being, anyone, person" (12c., Modern French personne) and directly from Latin persona "human being.

Trinity (n.) early 13c., "the Father, Son and Holy Spirit," constituting one God in prevailing Christian doctrine, from Old French trinite "Holy Trinity" (11 c.), from Late Latin trinitatem (nominative trinitas) "Trinity, triad" (Tertullian), from Latin trinus "threefold, triple," from plural of trini "three at a time, threefold," related to tres (neuter tria) "three" (see three). The Latin word was widely borrowed in European languages with the rise of Christianity (Irish trionnoid, Welsh trindod, German trinität).   Etymology Dictionary Online

I am sorry, how dare we tried to bring down THE SUPREME BEINGS to be call persons. The Hebrew word one "echad," means:  united. It is the same word used in Gen 2:24 when Adam said he and his wife would become "one flesh." Do you mean men and women are stuck together? EGW was confuse about THE HOLY SPIRIT because she came out of the Methodist Church. But this is what the first SDA wrote about their faith:

FUNDAMENTAL PRINCIPLES

In presenting to the public this synopsis of our faith, we wish to have it distinctly understood that we have no articles of faith, creed, or discipline, aside from the Bible. We do not put forth this as having any authority with our people, nor is it designed to secure uniformity among them, as a system of faith, but is a brief statement of what is, and has been, with great unanimity, held by them.

I – That there is one ELOHIM* a personal, SPIRITUAL BEING, THE CREATOR of all things, omnipotent, omniscient, and eternal, infinite in wisdom, holiness, justice, goodness, truth, and mercy; unchangeable, and everywhere present by his representative, the Holy Spirit. Ps. 139:7.

II – That there is YAHSHUA*, the Son of the Eternal Father, the one by whom ELOHIM* created all things, and by whom they do consist; that he took on him the nature of the seed of Abraham for the redemption of our fallen race;

A Declaration of the Fundamental Principles Taught & Practiced by The Seventh-Day Adventists Battle Creek, Mich. 1872

(* I use the TRUE SUBTITLE ELOHIM and each of THEIR INDIVIDUAL NAME which are YAHWEH, THE FATHER, YAHSHUA THE SON and THE HOLY SPIRIT. I will always replace THEIR CORRECT NAMES from the Bible and nothing else from also EGW!)

Even in the above writings it was stated they had no creed nor have any authority with the people. If you also notice they actually contradict themselves "a personal, SPIRITUAL BEING???? Then saying that YAHSHUA as THE FATHER'S SON and they use the plural word "THEY do consist???? They even declare that THE HOLY SPIRIT a "REPRESENTATIVE!" The Bible make it clear:

And Elohim said, let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over all the creepers creeping on the earth. Gen 1:26 

Then the Bible made it clear that THE SON made man by the Command and HIS obedience to HIS FATHER:

And Elohim created the man in His own image; in the image of Elohim He created him. He created them male and female. Gen 1:27

Now here again is proof that the EXPRESS IMAGE of HIS FATHER who sat down on the RIGHT HAND of YAHWEH ELOHIM. THEY nor THE HOLY SPIRIT are persons! Plus John states clearly that YAHSHUA was ELOHIM and HE as in the beginning with HIS FATHER SUBTITLE ELOHIM a plural word!!!!

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with Elohim, and the Word was Elohim. He was in the beginning with Elohim. Everything existed through His hands, and without Him, not even one thing existed of the things, which have existed. John 1:1-3

In many ways and in various ways of old, Elohim spoke to the fathers in the prophets; in these last days He has spoken to us in the Son, whom He appointed heir of all; and by whom he made the worlds; for He is the brightness of His glory, and the express image of His being, and upholding all things by the power of His Word; having made purification of our sins through Himself, He sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high, Heb 1:1-3 (HRB)

EGW was dealing with the Law in Galatians with Jones and Waggoner also the Holy Convocation days which were Statues as also the weekly Sabbath! Uriah Smith send her away and she wrote this to the minister who were beginning to change things she wrote and also the Bible read TM p. 105-117. She let it know that their will be less talked about the papacy and that Daniel and Revelation will be understood and once it was understood their will be a revival, that revival is the waking up of the 5 wise virgins or the 144,000. The five foolish will reject the truth and the wise will finish reaping the harvest which is Rev Chapter 14. The trinity is and always will be a lie and is not the truth. THEIR are THREE SUPREME BEINGS who have HANDS, FEET, MOUTH, LIPS TONGUES, HAIR because THEY made us to be created in THEIR IMAGE and not man!!!!!

Blessings!

[stinsonmarri]

38 minutes ago, Wrxdod16 said:

JoeMo,

I'm still trying to understand the chronological interpretation of Revelation. Even all the way to chapter 18 an angel is pleading for people to come out of Babylon with nearly the same language as the 3rd angel in chapter 14. Chronologically(in this case) chapter 18 has an angel pleading for people to come out of Babylon in order to not suffer her judgment but the second coming/rapture(chapter 19) does not occur until after the final bowl is finished with no church rapture in between or before.

My opinion is it makes much more sense to interpret Revelation as a recapitulation of differing components but for the most part concurrently happening. Otherwise certain events occur many times over again.

These chapters are actually chronologically correct. It is the SDA that has made it confusing. Hiram Edson saw the Judgment which is Rev Ch. 4, 5, THE FATHER sitting on HIS Throne with the Book of Life in HIS RIGHT HAND. THE LAMB is YAHSHUA who takes the Book of Life that THE FATHER in 1844 begins to judge the world. The seals SDA are  wrong if you read these seals deal with judgment of the world starting with Adam and Eve, they were the only two that was created perfect. The horses is the condition of the earth, white horse is perfect and Adam Eve was sealed. Horse red, Cain the rider first time man's blood was shed but all who are saved from Abel to Methuselah, some will be blotted out but these people are sealed for life or death! Black horse is when the earth was full of paganism thank to the rider Nimrod who is the father of paganism and when trade begin. People sealed and or blotted out from Noah to the disciples. Grey horse or earth is beginning to die and the rider is the papacy. No more horses a promise to those under the altar to rest for a little while because there will be martyrs under the sixth seal. But something also happen under the sixth seal, this is what EGW first vision was about, the 144,000 who will bring in the Great Multitude. The seventh seal shows clearly that the Time of Trouble has begun and BOTH YAHWEH and YAHSHUA Wrath is about to be poured on the earth. Most do not believe but the majority of the angels have been in prison and now they are release. This is Chapter 9 and they cannot harm those who will be sealed during The Time of Trouble. These evil angels cannot even kill the wicked only torture them who want to die. They also describe the evil angels too and that Satan Apollyon is their leader!

Now what Revelation does is go back over things, it gives you the conclusion first and then break it down. Chapter 10 is how the message was given so that the SDA would get the message. Chapter 11 the Gentile is the papacy and show how the 144,000 will not be hiding but they will have power. The Papacy will rule for a while in Jerusalem which is the Great City that has become Babylon. It also shows the rise of the beast at the end of The Time of Trouble. It also states that the Two Witness is going to be the Ark of the Covenant which has been hidden but the wicked will see that HIS Law has never changed and no human could touch it because of THE GLORY of YAHWEH! They would die just like Uzziah did! It will return back to Heaven with the One in Heaven. Then Chapters 12 give you history of how the church came here to America and how the 144,000 and the great multitude will become the remnant and not the SDA Church, because they keep all the Commandment of THE FATHER and THE TESTIMONY of YAHSHUA which is THE SPIRIT of PROPHECY! Not EGW! Then Chapter 13 gives you the beast, who was Nimrod, the papacy and finally the 8th himself. He comes out the Catholic Church but realize the church is a fake, he is not the papacy and the false prophet who is America will serve him. Nobody can mark a day but the beast will have mark that only those who worship him will be able to buy and sell. Chapter 14 clearly shows you who the 144,000 are and how they are given their due. Then this chapter shows what the 144,000 work is they are the messengers flying or moving swiftly through out the earth with great power during the Time of Trouble (literal 3 1\2 years) to gather people from all religions to be save then the angels with separate the wicked to be burn. Chapter 15 is the praise and worship of THE FATHER and THE SON to vindicate HIS FATHER'S NAME who all blaspheme using the word god which means Satan!!!!  THEY will now bring on the Seven plagues on the beast and the papacy. Chapter 16 shows how these plagues will be poured out and the destruction of the Papacy and Jerusalem just before HIS SON comes back. Now Chapter 17 goes back in history to show who the beast was Nimrod, is but is not the Papacy, and is the 8th the beast. It will tell you how he will rise after the Time of Trouble and how he will hate the Papacy and Jerusalem because this is ELOHIM'S Will! Chapter 18 explain how Jerusalem became Babylon and that it will be destroyed in the battle of Armageddon by the beast and the kings of the world. The beast wants to be worship and do not want any religion to respected. He united with Satan who gives him the earth and he takes he thinks he can take the universe-he is stupid! It will show that Jerusalem is going to be destroyed by their dear friend USA who will nuke it. Then an angel of ELOHIM will finish it off to prepare for the New Jerusalem. Chapter 19 give a complete detail of how the beast will try to make war with YAHSHUA by trying to go after HIS saints. Before the beast can do it YAHSHUA comes back with all the angels and just out of HIS MOUTH, HE takes the beast and the false prophet USA and put them in the Lake of Fire! The rest are killed by YAHSHUA'S GLORY and the angels have the birds to even pick their flesh! Chapter 20 shows that Satan, himself will be thrown in prison because he has no one to tempt and he is lock up not here but in the bottom less where he and his angels were originally kicked out at. Then come executed judgment that YAHSHUA deals out! But wait Chapter 21, 22 shows that YAHSHUA will touch Mt. Olivet and it will be made plain for the New Jerusalem, the Heavenly Temple to come down. Satan will be let  loose and YAHSHUA will raise up the wicked dead from Cain until now, they will try to take the city. Each one like a video will see why they are not saved and they all including Satan and his angels will bow down and worship YAHSHUA. Then like a leopard that does not change its spots, Satan will try to take the city and the wicked and him will all be wiped out!!!!!!! That is why you cannot add or take from the Bible it tell its own HIS STORY of YAHSHUA! HALLELU-YAH Read Rev 1-3 it tell this is all given for the last days!

Blessings!

[hch]

5 hours ago, MCBGM said:

5 hours ago, hch said:

It sounds like you are saying that when the lake of fire is burning the wicked,

their probation is still open/not closed?

 

That's exactly how I see it, yes.

Good time to brush off the parable of the rich man and Lazarus.

[Martn]

On 3/10/2016 at 3:08 PM, Wrxdod16 said:

God would never have decided in advance to destroy the earth if man could've repented.

Do we know the mind of God? Really?

Yes, nothing could be done to save them from drowning, from bodily death. Once they were left outside the ark.

Just as there will be nothing which can be done to save the wicked from burning. Once they are burning.

But that doesn't mean nothing could be done, or can be done, to save the people themselves. Eventually, in spirit.

Again, what about all the billions of little children left outside the ark? They died in the flood, too.

Nothing could be done to save them from drowning either.

Still it's never too late to save the children themselves, is it?

 

[Martn]

16 hours ago, Wrxdod16 said:

Without the Holy Spirit there is no goodness in man. If no good then nothing left over in the fire.

Assuming evil can exist by itself, apart from good.

I disagree.

Unlike good, evil has no existence at all on its own. The only reality it has is in combination with good.

Error must always be combined with truth in order to succeed, for example.

So there can be no such thing as total evil.

If the wicked in hell were totally devoid of goodness, they wouldn't exist at all and there wouldn't be anything to burn in the first place.

Yet, some will "burn" only a little bit --"beaten" with few stripes, as it says.

While others will "burn" much longer, "beaten" with many stripes.

[Martn]

On 3/11/2016 at 7:09 PM, hch said:

Good time to brush off the parable of the rich man and Lazarus.

 

Regardless, my point is the wicked don't escape hell. If people don't repent, then that is where they are headed with no way to avoid it.

Once there, however, they still can be saved. At bare minimum --without any of the reward the righteous earn of course.

Salvation itself, ultimately, is not a choice. We didn't choose to be given life in the first place, so neither need we be consulted to receive life in the second place. It's a total gift.

[Martn]

On 3/11/2016 at 9:23 AM, Wrxdod16 said:

Without the body there is no soul

 

This idea is based on a common mistranslation of Genesis 2:7.

In just about every version it is mistranslated. Completely backward --butt backward. 

Even in Jewish English Bibles it is translated upside down. (Within the dominant, majority Christian and Muslim world, there has been a need not to appear too provocative. There's less persecution nowadays, but still some need for caution. The idea of preexistent souls has not been one to be well received within the dominant culture.)

The Hebrew word for breath is Neshima (with an "i"), but this is not the word which is used in Genesis 2:7, in any instance. 

The word used for "breath" there is Neshama. It has only one translation --Soul. Neshama is the Hebrew word for Soul, even to this day. Most (English) translation sources, however, fail to note any distinction between Neshama and Neshima.

Therefore the phrase translated "breath of life" is in fact "Living Soul" --a Living Soul which was put into the body. Thus existing even before it was in the body.

But, the word which is translated in most versions as "living soul" (Nephesh) means "breathing creature" --an animal.

The Living Soul, which existed before it was in the body, became an animal. Man became a beast. Ecclesiastes 3:18.

[8thdaypriest]

On 2/16/2016 at 3:05 PM, JoeMo said:

  On 2/16/2016 at 1:53 PM, Kdogae86 said:

 The 70 weeks are given as a probation for the Jewish people. It makes no sense to move the last week all the way to the end of time. It wouldn't be a 70 week probation anymore would it?

The 70 sevens were "appointed to" Daniel's people.  Who are Daniel's people?  That's the QUESTION.  Are they not the redeemed?  Believing Gentiles are "grafted in" to Israel, and unbelieving "Jews" are "cut off" from Israel.  Paul said, "And thus all Israel will be saved" (Rom 11:26).  That is only true if Israel refers to faith "descendants" of Abraham - NOT to "all" DNA descendants. 

IF - and it's a big IF, the prophecy applied only to the final remaining tribe of Israel, THEN I could agree with your interpretation.  The final weeks of probation for the Jewish people as a nation, would end 490 years from the decree to rebuild the city of Jerusalem. 

IF - on the other hand - the prophecy applies to faith Israel, all grafted into the tree of Abraham, with the root that is holy (Christ), then the entire 70 "sevens" would be a prophecy about the final weeks leading up to the END of this age.   This is my belief. 

        Do we look to the command issued anciently by Cyrus or Artaxerxes, which freed the Jews to return to their land, and to rebuild their Temple after the captivity in Babylon?  If this prophecy is for “the latter days” or “the time of the end”, then why look to this ancient command? The prophet was told to “shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end” (Dan 12:4).  The messenger said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end” (Dan 12:9).  What makes us think we can clearly understand this prophecy - yet?

        Do we look to the United Nations recognition of Israel as a nation in 1948?  Or do we look for another command in the very last days?   If Iran gets a nuclear weapon and destroys Jerusalem, then another command may be forthcoming. The entire 70 weeks may belong to the last days.  
        
        We have at least two possibilities.  Maybe three.