The One Project, Seattle, This February

[Green Cochoa]

Pam,

What is the definition of Scripture?  Is it decided by an earthly tribunal, or by the Word of God?  I choose the latter.  

Now, so that I am clear, I do not consider every word that Mrs. White ever wrote to be scripture.  For example, the personal letters she wrote that she later requested be burned (but were not), were never intended for publication and were not given her under inspiration.  Whomever did not burn them, as requested, may be accountable one day for their part, as Mrs. White herself may be for her complaining.  She was not infallible.  Only her inspired messages are.  A biblical analogy for the same distinction could be made with respect to King David, who penned much of real value in the Bible--so much so that many "New Testaments" still are published with the addition of his writings.  However, the letter he wrote and sent with Uriah the Hittite that effected Uriah's death is not, nor ever was, scripture.  Unlike his inspired writings, David the man was not infallible.

Keep in mind that these views are my own, and may not be representative of the views of other Adventists.  I do not attempt to speak for others, nor to force them to this view.  But to my mind, there is no other way to reconcile the matter, as I do not see any scripture to support varying degrees or levels of inspiration.  Either God has given scripture under inspiration, or He has not.  "All scripture is given by inspiration of God…."  If Ellen White was inspired, and inspired writings are scripture, it is a simple logical formula to realize that if A = B and B= C that A=C.  I don't know how any Adventist can accept a different logic than this.  I guess it can only be that they accept the Catholic decision as to what should be "scripture" with finality.  As Wikipedia puts it: 

Full dogmatic articulations of the canons were not made until the Council of Trent of 1546 for Roman Catholicism,^[50] the Thirty-Nine Articles of 1563 for the Church of England, the Westminster Confession of Faith of 1647 for Calvinism, and the Synod of Jerusalem of 1672 for the Greek Orthodox. Other traditions, while also having closed canons, may not be able to point to the exact years in which their respective canons were considered to be complete. The following tables reflect the current state of various Christian canons.

I guess I've wondered why Protestants have accepted so much of Catholicism into perpetuity.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Would you also term the inspired words of nonSDA writers as "scripture"?  

(not trying to harp on the issue, but I honestly think Ellen White would be horrified to think that anyone was terming her writings as Scripture, on par with the Bible)...

[Green Cochoa]

22 minutes ago, rudywoofs (Pam) said:

Would you also term the inspired words of nonSDA writers as "scripture"?  

(not trying to harp on the issue, but I honestly think Ellen White would be horrified to think that anyone was terming her writings as Scripture, on par with the Bible)...

Sure…IF and only if I knew them to be of a certain inspired of God at a prophetic level.  I may feel "inspired" to write something, but that does not put my writing on a level with that of a prophet.  Mrs. White was a prophet.  For example, Mrs. White recommended John Bunyan's "Pilgrim's Progress."  But was John a prophet? Is his book "scripture" because it was "inspired"?  I might accept that it was inspired, but not on a level with prophetic utterance (to my knowledge), and therefore I would hesitate to call it scripture.

Pam, do you think Peter or Paul would have considered their own writings "scripture"?  When they wrote of scripture, were they not rather thinking of those things written by the prophets before them?  Prophets are humble.  Almost no prophets, with the possible exceptions of Moses, Isaiah, and Jeremiah, likely considered their own writings to be scripture.  Prophets simply write for God.   They do not pen their own thoughts merely.  God has no need of informing the prophets, lest they become lifted up in pride--a thing Mrs. White herself feared might happen to her and she would lose her salvation over it, of the importance of their writing.

Mrs. White's writings are lesser to the Bible in one major sense: the world may be prejudiced against them, whereas they are acquainted with the Bible.  I believe we should use only the Bible to reach out to those who may not yet be ready to accept Mrs. White.  The Bible, and the Bible alone, should be our foundation for doctrine (not a 28 FB book).  This agrees with Mrs. White herself.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

[Gregory Matthews]

 

Yes, EGW has revelance to us living in our times.  [By the way, thank you for giving a response that allows me to make this clear.]

The fact that I believe that God gave her to us to guide us in our developing years does not negate her value to us today.

But that is another subject.

 

 

[Gregory Matthews]

Either God has given scripture under inspiration, or He has not.  "All scripture is given by inspiration of God…."  If Ellen White was inspired, and inspired writings are scripture, it is a simple logical formula to realize that if A = B and B= C that A=C.  I don't know how any Adventist can accept a different logic than this.  I guess it can only be that they accept the Catholic decision as to what should be "scripture" with finality.

All Scripture is both canonical and inspired.

Some inspired writing may not be canonical.  The Bible suggests, in a number of places, that the prophet/author of the material that was included in the Bible (canonical) also wrote inspired writings which were not included in the cannon.  They were inspired and of specific value for the time and circumstances under which they were written.

 

 

[Green Cochoa]

3 hours ago, Gregory Matthews said:

Green said:

O.K.

Tell us who spoke at the Seattle Conference who was attempting to lead people astray from God's saving truth.

Please tell us who was not a SDA and attempting to lead people astray.

Please tell us who was SDA and attempting to lead people astray.

Yes, I was cynical in my comment about you giving advice to EGW.  But, it caused me to get an answer from you.

But, I am now confused.  Just who in TOP Do you think is attempting to lead people astray at the Seattle Gathering?  Do you think that Japhet and the other SDA leaders were attempting to lead people astray? 

Do you think that people with whom you disagree are attempting to lead others astray?

By the way, as you well know, EGW clearly taught that there are people outside the SDA denomination who are honest in heart,. committed to Christ a nd attempting to do what God wants. Do you believe that you hae the ability to determine who is honest in heart and who is attempting to lead others astray?

You and I disagree on some points.  I, consider you to be honest in purpose.  I do not consider you to be attempting to lead people astray.  Do you consider me to be attempting to lead others astray?

Green, I am confused.  I am not being cynical in asking.  I simply do not know and I would like an answer.

Each of the founders of the One Project have an inordinate influence in regard to what is presented.  Alex Bryan was one of the speakers.  Have you an awareness of his church history?  Jesus said, "By their fruits ye shall know them."  When once we "know" them, what are we to do?  Suppose we know that someone is a wolf in sheep's clothing--what ought we to do?  I could sit here and criticize the speakers one by one--but that is Satan's work.  Your question is actually a temptation to violate the Matthew 7:1 principle.  There is a difference between knowing them by their fruits, and judging them.  I had far rather address their theology than their persons.  Would you be content to leave it at that?

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

[JoeMo]

1 hour ago, Green Cochoa said:

What is the definition of Scripture?  Is it decided by an earthly tribunal, or by the Word of God?  I choose the latter.  

Now, so that I am clear, I do not consider every word that Mrs. White ever wrote to be scripture.

Not a single word of what EGW wrote should be considered as on par with the Bible unless you prefer being part of a cult.  That's the dividing line between a cult and true Christianity.  When a group puts a human beings writings on par with or ahead of scripture, those people are part of a cult.

25 minutes ago, Green Cochoa said:

Mrs. White's writings are lesser to the Bible in one major sense: the world may be prejudiced against them, whereas they are acquainted with the Bible.

Mrs. White's writings are lesser than the Bible because some of the stuff she said is wrong based on current understanding.  1844, day for a year, and the "closed door", and the papacy = the AntiChrist  are 4 specific examples.  I could list many more, but my purpose is not to diss Mrs. White; it is to add my support to The One Project as a valid and desired grass-roots movement is Adventism.  It's about time we learned that the Kingdom is about what Jesus has done for us; not what the denomination or Mrs. White has done for us.  As far as an earlier comment you made about selling donuts vs. whole wheat bread.  If someone comes in your "store" looking for donuts and all you have is bread, they will leave.  The opposite is also true.  if someone comes into your donut store looking for bread, they will go elsewhere.  What's wrong with selling both donuts AND bread?  What's wrong with SDAs offering both an enhanced relationship with Jesus (regardless of the denominational source - as long as they are biblical) AND the guidance of Mrs. White?

[debbym]

I have a friend who is up in arms about the Jesus centered movement, as though it is cheap grace, and you don't have to work to overcome, and it is a false revival just before Jesus comes... to lead all who are not faithful away from the truth that saves us.

I cannot explain my confusion as she shared her  struggle as to whether she is worthy of God's blessing that day because she sinned earlier in the day.

We have to look away from ourselves, and let the Holy Spirit lead us to a true knowledge of our condition before God so we will run to Him for everything we need to stand before a Holy God.

We cannot just try to follow everything we know to be right and do as we please to please God  to our own understanding and then be satisfied that doing whatever we think is right will be good enough for God.  This is Righteousness by works.

The fear that people can be personally and powerfully lead by the Holy Spirit and not live by orthodoxy is the fear of the emergent church.  Emergent church stuff, the silence stuff, and the centering pray stuff is nothing, falls as dust in the presence of the working of the Holy Spirit to lift up Jesus. Everything that is the working of the flesh to be religious and right finds it's true place in the Presence of the Holy God.  In the presence of God is not only deepening conviction of sin, deepening of repentance, but Joy in salvation, and a fountain of Love towards God and man..

[Jeannieb43]

Speaking of other non-SDA inspirational authors, I have always enjoyed reading Charles R. Swindoll's books.

I don't know whether he's still active.

 

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

37 minutes ago, Green Cochoa said:

Alex Bryan was one of the speakers.  Have you an awareness of his church history?

Please elaborate.  What is his church history that may make him a sheep in wolf's clothing?  (I have no knowledge of his theology, so am just wondering..)

[Green Cochoa]

31 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

Not a single word of what EGW wrote should be considered as on par with the Bible unless you prefer being part of a cult.  That's the dividing line between a cult and true Christianity.  When a group puts a human beings writings on par with or ahead of scripture, those people are part of a cult.

1 hour ago, Green Cochoa said:

Unfortunately for you, Joe, by your definition, you are part of a cult.  God didn't write the Bible.  If, by following the Bible, I am in a cult, so be it.

Blessings,
Green Cochoa.

[JoeMo]

19 minutes ago, Jeannieb43 said:

Speaking of other non-SDA inspirational authors, I have always enjoyed reading Charles R. Swindoll's books.

I don't know whether he's still active.

 

I too enjoy Chuck Swindoll!  Yes; he is still active, and his radio program "Insight for Living" is still broadcast on many Christian radio stations.

[Green Cochoa]

9 minutes ago, rudywoofs (Pam) said:

Please elaborate.  What is his church history that may make him a sheep in wolf's clothing?  (I have no knowledge of his theology, so am just wondering..)

Here's an excerpt from an article published last year about it.

Quote

In 1996 Alex Bryan, established Sunday services in the New Community Fellowship church to try to reach the young adult community. However, this method resulted in a now non-denominational Sunday-observing church that still meets today. As the conference administration considered Alex Bryan’s termination, Alex resigned in 2002 from the Seventh-day Adventist church and remained independent. After five years, Alex Bryan was picked up by Walla Walla SDA University and is now their Church Pastor and the chairman of the board of The One Project. For more information about The One Project, check out the series called Omega Emerging, Operation Iceberg.

You may read the entire article that came from HERE.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

[JoeMo]

1 minute ago, Green Cochoa said:

Unfortunately for you, Joe, by your definition, you are part of a cult.  God didn't write the Bible.  If, by following the Bible, I am in a cult, so be it.

Blessings,
Green Cochoa.

Where did I say God wrote the Bible?  Some say the authors of the Bible were God's penmen, but not His pen.  While I lean in that direction, I could not rectify that position with verses like:

" Every scripture inspired of God is also profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction which is in righteousness.  That the man of God may be complete, furnished completely unto every good work. (2Tim. 3:16-17)

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God". (John 1:1)

"But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. (Matt. 4:4)

These seem to indicate that the Bible is God's Word, whether or not God actually "wrote" them (i.e., held the pen).

[JoeMo]

Good for Alex!  He reached out to Sunday Keepers!  Was there anything in the article that claimed Alex rejected the Sabbath?  I'm a committed Sabbath-Keeper myself; but that doesn't stop me from going to church on Sunday as well if I am so moved or someone invites me to their church.  I see nothing in scripture or EGWs writings that prohibit Sunday worship.

[Green Cochoa]

2 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

Good for Alex!  He reached out to Sunday Keepers!  Was there anything in the article that claimed Alex rejected the Sabbath?  I'm a committed Sabbath-Keeper myself; but that doesn't stop me from going to church on Sunday as well if I am so moved or someone invites me to their church.  I see nothing in scripture or EGWs writings that prohibit Sunday worship.

Read more carefully.  The Sunday church does not worship on Sabbath; only on Sunday.

Blessings,
Green Cochoa.

[JoeMo]

Just now, Green Cochoa said:

Read more carefully.  The Sunday church does not worship on Sabbath; only on Sunday.

Blessings,
Green Cochoa.

That doesn't mean that Alex himself rejected the Sabbath.  Who are we to judge another man's motives?  I know of two Sunday church pastors who keep a Saturday Sabbath and preach on Sunday.  Sabbath is their day to spend with God and family, not to preach at church.

[Green Cochoa]

Joe,

You are clearly trying so hard to defend the man that you are not noticing the facts of the case.  The church he was pastoring was an Adventist church, meeting on Saturday (Sabbath).  He decided to try something, and held services on Sunday.  In the end, the entire church converted to Sunday keeping.  While the conference that had hired him understandably considered firing him, he resigned.  The church he left behind is still a non-denominational, non-Adventist church.  What kind of leadership does this result (fruit) show?

I have, myself, attended Sunday churches many times.  I agree with you on that point that it is no sin to associate with believers of other faiths.  But to lead them away from the true Sabbath to the false sabbath is a different matter.

Where do you think, based on his past record, his new followers may go?  At what point should we warn our young people about him?  After they have already left the church?  Will that not be too late? 

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

[debbym]

25 minutes ago, Green Cochoa said:

Here's an excerpt from an article published last year about it.

"Establishing a Sunday service in an Adventist church is reminiscent of another church in Atlanta, GA. In 1996 Alex Bryan, established Sunday services in the New Community Fellowship church to try to reach the young adult community. However, this method resulted in a now non-denominational Sunday-observing church that still meets today. " 

You may read the entire article that came from HERE.

Blessings,

Green Cochoa.

i have known SDA folks who have been Sunday school teachers at Sunday churches.  I thought it was wonderful. One of my SDA friends what choir leader in a Sunday church it was great.

Alex came to an operating Sunday church spent time teaching them, and left them, and they continue as a Sunday Church.  How does this imply he did something wrong?

there was no deep research done here...

[Green Cochoa]

10 minutes ago, debbym said:

i have known SDA folks who have been Sunday school teachers at Sunday churches.  I thought it was wonderful. One of my SDA friends what choir leader in a Sunday church it was great.

Alex came to an operating Sunday church spent time teaching them, and left them, and they continue as a Sunday Church.  How does this imply he did something wrong?

there was no deep research done here...

No, Alex did not go to an operating Sunday church.  He initiated the Sunday observance at a "Saturday church."  At that point, it met both days--at least for awhile.  Shortly before he "resigned," the church had ceased to worship on Saturday.  Learn more details about him via the following website that was created to help people understand who he was when he was being considered for the presidency of Walla Walla University.

http://thegreatcontroversy.info/concerns-regarding-alex.html

Blessings,
Green Cochoa.

[LifeHiscost]

On 1/31/2016 at 10:28 AM, Tom Wetmore said:

Sadly I have found many Adventist authors more interested in rehashing the same old tired ideas and themes with very little in the way of fresh and new thoughts or even new ways of expressing old truths.  I am also current reading through a collection of classic books that are exclusively by non-SDA authors... The collection is commonly known as the Bible. 

I'll have to admit the most simple rules are from eternity. When I think of how our Father in Heaven is going to release His own from the sense of need to put others down in order to feel better about themselves, I'll know I've reached the home He's prepared for us.

…14But when Jesus saw this, He was indignant and said to them, "Permit the children to come to Me; do not hinder them; for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. 15"Truly I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God like a child will not enter it at all." 16And He took them in His arms and began blessing them, laying His hands on them....Mark 10

 

God is Love!~Jesus saves! 

[CoAspen]

Quote

http://thegreatcontroversy.info/concerns-regarding-alex.html

Can not find who the person/s behind the website are. Looked it over, but that info seems to be lacking. Is there some reason for that?

A lot of links to different sites, but no credit for who is running this one. 

The article referenced has a lot of anecdotal conversations but no links to actual quotes or places to check for facts.

To many red flags to give the site much credence at this point.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

rather than providing 3rd party ideas of what they *think* Alex Bryan's theology is, wouldn't it be better to ask him directly?  

This business of condemnation via hearsay, innuendo, and subjective analyses doesn't really cut the mustard with me.  

Jesus said we must become as children.  Children notice everything....they don't subjectively filter things out the way adults do.  It sounds to me as though the vehement critics of the ONE Project are doing some big time filtering.  I wonder what might happen if those critics would do as Jesus said, and begin to look at *everything*, rather than forming a false Gestalt by taking bits and pieces of the whole.

 

[CoAspen]

When I take my car to be repaired, I choose to go to a person with actual experience rather than to a person who has read on the net how to do it....just saying!!

[JoeMo]

2 hours ago, Green Cochoa said:

You are clearly trying so hard to defend the man that you are not noticing the facts of the case.  The church he was pastoring was an Adventist church, meeting on Saturday (Sabbath).

I am not trying to defend Alex - I don't know him any better than I know you. I am simply opining that we have no right to judge another's motives or their heart.  That's God's job. 

 

2 hours ago, Green Cochoa said:

 He initiated the Sunday observance at a "Saturday church."  At that point, it met both days--at least for awhile.  Shortly before he "resigned," the church had ceased to worship on Saturday.

 That's a sad commentary (if it's true).  At least they still worship regularly.  How do you know whether or not a significant number of his congregation did or didn't leave that church for another SDA Church when there were no more Sabbath services?  How do you know Alex didn't have a change of heart about starting a Sunday service once the unintended consequences of doing so were made manifest?  With the cited article (and website) appearing to be anonymous, why should I give it any credibility?

For a few years, I was actively involved in an SDA Church that got in trouble for using non-SDA material in Sabbath School.  The Conference threatened to disband our church.  Rather than be disbanded, our pastor simply resigned her SDA ministerial credentials, requested that our church be taken off of denominational roles.  We became a Sabbath-keeping non denominational-church. We were meeting on Saturdays in a Sunday keeping church.  The pastor of the church we were using was so impressed with us, that he encouraged his Sunday congregation to worship with us on occasion.  Several of those who did became Sabbath keepers.  We started playing around with the idea of adding a Sunday service to grow our congregation.  It never happened, because the church decided that it would be confusing to proclaim a 7th-Day Sabbath and suddenly add a service on Sunday.  But that was us; I can't judge how other congregations would vote.

For me, Sabbath is intimately intertwined with my relationship with Jesus; but it's not my place to put that burden of committed Sunday keepers.  After all, our salvation is dependent on our relationship with Jesus Christ and observing all the commandments without emphasizing just one.  Sabbath keeping won't get you into heaven; a relationship with Jesus will.